Wow, just... wow. Point flown over head.Fre3dombear said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I guess you don't read the "Heaven" thread. This is all true, of course, but you're never going to get them to admit it. The way they get around it is that they say that since all these actions are not being done towards God, then it isn't worship. They created a semantic system, where "latria" is worship of God, whereas "dulia" is only "reverance" or "veneration". So if you pray or bow to God and sing hymns to him, that's "latria". If you do the exact same things to Mary or a saint, it's only "dulia". Different word, so it's not the same thing. There, fixed it!ShooterTX said:Why do we have to get into Mary's virginity? Because the Roman Catholics made it an issue of heaven or hell. They are the only ones on the planet who actually teach that if you disagree with their teaching on Mary's sex life... then you will go to hell.FLBear5630 said:No, it was a discussion. It was a things that piss me off about the Catholic Church, from an Ugly Baby perspective in a Pope Leo thread. Mary perpetual virginity and Paul, piss me off. Mary's perpetual virginity , why go there??? Not rejecting, just why? Do we really have to get into that?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Well, yes.... isn't that the point?FLBear5630 said:Such a judgmental Christian. Your denomination teach to tell who is right and who is wrong?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Am I the one who's been blowing up whenever they're asked a totally legit question about their own religion?FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell."Quote:
You do realize we will not come to resolution on this right? According to Freedom, even having your own view on anything the Bible is Hubris. So, how do you come to a common place to move forward if you can't even have your own view? I threw out one as a bone, my issue with Matys lifelong virginity and it turned I to the inquisition. Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell. I never bought into Paul, the other one. I am waitiing for the religious police to xo.e to my house on that.
So, we will go back to our corners and only talk with those that agree. What a waste of an opportunity with these Boards.
That's YOUR OWN religion saying that!! My God, something is just... wrong with you.
You need Pope Francis... Your faith is supposed to bring you joy. It seems just get you mad.
And you can keep Pope Francis. I'm not sure you want to follow in his footsteps. They might not be going where you want to go.
And I'm trying to teach you that YOUR OWN religion is judging you and telling you what is right and wrong about your beliefs, and that it'd better be what they say is right or you go to Hell. Good grief, are you paying any attention? (*like I said, I know you are, judging by your reaction).
And Paul. He is either telling us what we did wrong, what to do or asking for money. If the reading is Acts or one of the Books of Paul, be prepared your gonna get yelled at and hit up for money... : ) Who the hell writes 14 books, but a know it all.
That is my discussion on this stuff. Pretty shallow, you over estimate the depth here....
Protestants are NOT saying that you are going to hell over Mary's sex life... that is 100% the Catholics.
I agree with you that it is a silly topic, and it has never been a topic that anyone in the Protestant side has ever really cared about... except to point out how ridiculous it is.
The only reason that Protestants bring up Mary, is because she is worshipped in the Catholic religion.
Before you say that Catholics don't worship Mary... answer these questions:
1. Do Catholics say special prayers to Mary?
2. Do Catholics sing special worship & praise songs to Mary and about Mary?
3. Do Catholics build shrines to Mary?
4. Do Catholics put statues & images of Mary in the most prominent positions in their churches & cathedrals?
5. Do Catholics do pilgrimages just to visit places where supposedly the image of Mary appeared?
6. How many Catholic "holy" sites exist around the world, that are specifically named & dedicated to Mary? Hundreds? Thousands?
Perhaps the Catechisms don't specifically call for Catholics to worship Mary... but the actions of Catholics certainly do. When is the last time you heard a Pope rebuke Catholics for engaging in these forms of worshipping Mary?
This is the reason why Catholics have been so obsessed with Mary's sex life. They want to create the idea that she was far and above normal people, so she can be worthy of worship.
If you really have a problem with Mary's perpetual virginity, then you don't have a problem with Protestants, you have a problem with Catholics.
Now to Mary, they treat her with SO much "dulia" that to any objective person it's as if she is a goddess. No, no, they say. That's only "hyper-dulia". A high degree of dulia, yes, but still not "latria". Different word than "latria", so it's not worship - get it? It just flat out amazes me that they got people to actually buy this. It'd be no different than a married person telling their spouse "No, honey, I didn't cheat on you with another woman/man. I only went out on dates with them and kissed them - that's only love between friends. My love for you is the love for a spouse." But the spouse says, "But you had sex with them too, that's more than just friendship". He/she replies, "No, no, see, intercourse with YOU is "sex". Intercourse with another is only hyper-friendship."
What amazes me more than the fact that they think they can fool others, even themselves with this, is that they think they can fool God.
Wow, you are really into the Mary stuff.
Lmao. Now we have someone saying 2 different words have different meanings. What a crazy concept.
I posted it. I didn't say it was the Devil using Mary to bring people TO Christ, I said it was to bring them AWAY from him. Here is the message from the Fatima marian apparition that I posted, again:Fre3dombear said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I guess you don't read the "Heaven" thread. This is all true, of course, but you're never going to get them to admit it. The way they get around it is that they say that since all these actions are not being done towards God, then it isn't worship. They created a semantic system, where "latria" is worship of God, whereas "dulia" is only "reverance" or "veneration". So if you pray or bow to God and sing hymns to him, that's "latria". If you do the exact same things to Mary or a saint, it's only "dulia". Different word, so it's not the same thing. There, fixed it!ShooterTX said:Why do we have to get into Mary's virginity? Because the Roman Catholics made it an issue of heaven or hell. They are the only ones on the planet who actually teach that if you disagree with their teaching on Mary's sex life... then you will go to hell.FLBear5630 said:No, it was a discussion. It was a things that piss me off about the Catholic Church, from an Ugly Baby perspective in a Pope Leo thread. Mary perpetual virginity and Paul, piss me off. Mary's perpetual virginity , why go there??? Not rejecting, just why? Do we really have to get into that?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Well, yes.... isn't that the point?FLBear5630 said:Such a judgmental Christian. Your denomination teach to tell who is right and who is wrong?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Am I the one who's been blowing up whenever they're asked a totally legit question about their own religion?FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell."Quote:
You do realize we will not come to resolution on this right? According to Freedom, even having your own view on anything the Bible is Hubris. So, how do you come to a common place to move forward if you can't even have your own view? I threw out one as a bone, my issue with Matys lifelong virginity and it turned I to the inquisition. Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell. I never bought into Paul, the other one. I am waitiing for the religious police to xo.e to my house on that.
So, we will go back to our corners and only talk with those that agree. What a waste of an opportunity with these Boards.
That's YOUR OWN religion saying that!! My God, something is just... wrong with you.
You need Pope Francis... Your faith is supposed to bring you joy. It seems just get you mad.
And you can keep Pope Francis. I'm not sure you want to follow in his footsteps. They might not be going where you want to go.
And I'm trying to teach you that YOUR OWN religion is judging you and telling you what is right and wrong about your beliefs, and that it'd better be what they say is right or you go to Hell. Good grief, are you paying any attention? (*like I said, I know you are, judging by your reaction).
And Paul. He is either telling us what we did wrong, what to do or asking for money. If the reading is Acts or one of the Books of Paul, be prepared your gonna get yelled at and hit up for money... : ) Who the hell writes 14 books, but a know it all.
That is my discussion on this stuff. Pretty shallow, you over estimate the depth here....
Protestants are NOT saying that you are going to hell over Mary's sex life... that is 100% the Catholics.
I agree with you that it is a silly topic, and it has never been a topic that anyone in the Protestant side has ever really cared about... except to point out how ridiculous it is.
The only reason that Protestants bring up Mary, is because she is worshipped in the Catholic religion.
Before you say that Catholics don't worship Mary... answer these questions:
1. Do Catholics say special prayers to Mary?
2. Do Catholics sing special worship & praise songs to Mary and about Mary?
3. Do Catholics build shrines to Mary?
4. Do Catholics put statues & images of Mary in the most prominent positions in their churches & cathedrals?
5. Do Catholics do pilgrimages just to visit places where supposedly the image of Mary appeared?
6. How many Catholic "holy" sites exist around the world, that are specifically named & dedicated to Mary? Hundreds? Thousands?
Perhaps the Catechisms don't specifically call for Catholics to worship Mary... but the actions of Catholics certainly do. When is the last time you heard a Pope rebuke Catholics for engaging in these forms of worshipping Mary?
This is the reason why Catholics have been so obsessed with Mary's sex life. They want to create the idea that she was far and above normal people, so she can be worthy of worship.
If you really have a problem with Mary's perpetual virginity, then you don't have a problem with Protestants, you have a problem with Catholics.
Now to Mary, they treat her with SO much "dulia" that to any objective person it's as if she is a goddess. No, no, they say. That's only "hyper-dulia". A high degree of dulia, yes, but still not "latria". Different word than "latria", so it's not worship - get it? It just flat out amazes me that they got people to actually buy this. It'd be no different than a married person telling their spouse "No, honey, I didn't cheat on you with another woman/man. I only went out on dates with them and kissed them - that's only love between friends. My love for you is the love for a spouse." But the spouse says, "But you had sex with them too, that's more than just friendship". He/she replies, "No, no, see, intercourse with YOU is "sex". Intercourse with another is only hyper-friendship."
What amazes me more than the fact that they think they can fool others, even themselves with this, is that they think they can fool God.
Wow, you are really into the Mary stuff.
Having stood before and on the site of many Marian apparitions, and studied them scientifically, can't imagine being a denier but I think one of these guys / gals just said it was actually the devil using Mary to bring people to Christ. The post is on this board somewhere.
Fre3dombear said:
Let's be clear folks, an angel named Gabriel said "Hail Mary, full of Grace (ave Maria gratia plena)"
Now I don't know about those here but I'm no angel and I'm certainly not THE angel that GOD chose or commanded to go speak with the new Eve, the new ark about the proposition of giving birth miraculously to God, His son, in the flesh. (Please note what Martin Luther said about Mary's virginity. It will shock some lol)
Now if anyone chooses to repeat the words of the hand picked Gabriel, by God we might add, please know, you will likely burn in hell, well according to a poster or two
REPENT!!!!!! Be gone demons!!!
Gabriel damned a couple billion catholics at any given time to hell for all eternity. Who knew!
Don't deny it! You're saying what he said! We have eyes on you and know how God will judge you repeating this words of Angel Gabriel.
You can all ask how Gabriel got to hell as well when you get there. Bring sun screen.
What in God's name are you talking about? What does any of this mean?Fre3dombear said:
Let's be clear folks, an angel named Gabriel said "Hail Mary, full of Grace (ave Maria gratia plena)"
Now I don't know about those here but I'm no angel and I'm certainly not THE angel that GOD chose or commanded to go speak with the new Eve, the new ark about the proposition of giving birth miraculously to God, His son, in the flesh. (Please note what Martin Luther said about Mary's virginity. It will shock some lol)
Now if anyone chooses to repeat the words of the hand picked Gabriel, by God we might add, please know, you will likely burn in hell, well according to a poster or two
REPENT!!!!!! Be gone demons!!!
Gabriel damned a couple billion catholics at any given time to hell for all eternity. Who knew!
Don't deny it! You're saying what he said! We have eyes on you and know how God will judge you repeating this words of Angel Gabriel.
You can all ask how Gabriel got to hell as well when you get there. Bring sun screen.
ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:
Let's be clear folks, an angel named Gabriel said "Hail Mary, full of Grace (ave Maria gratia plena)"
Now I don't know about those here but I'm no angel and I'm certainly not THE angel that GOD chose or commanded to go speak with the new Eve, the new ark about the proposition of giving birth miraculously to God, His son, in the flesh. (Please note what Martin Luther said about Mary's virginity. It will shock some lol)
Now if anyone chooses to repeat the words of the hand picked Gabriel, by God we might add, please know, you will likely burn in hell, well according to a poster or two
REPENT!!!!!! Be gone demons!!!
Gabriel damned a couple billion catholics at any given time to hell for all eternity. Who knew!
Don't deny it! You're saying what he said! We have eyes on you and know how God will judge you repeating this words of Angel Gabriel.
You can all ask how Gabriel got to hell as well when you get there. Bring sun screen.
Gabriel was sent by God to deliver a message to Mary.
That is far, far different than worshipping Mary with shrines, statues, prayers and songs.
If an angelic visitation is the threshold... they why don't you guys worship & pray to Moses. Surely seeing & hearing God through the burning bush is enough for you guys to build a few shrines and make up some prayers to him.
I've never heard a Mail Moses prayer... maybe it exists.
How about a Hail Peter or Hail John or Hail James? Didn't they all have angelic visitations? Didn't they all know and see Jesus before and after his resurrection?
No... Catholics have a very weird fixation with Mary... and an even more weird fixation with her sex life. I'll never understand why Catholics created an entire doctrine around the sex life of Jesus mother. So very strange. If you disagree with Catholics about Mary knocking boots with her husband.. then they believe you will go to hell. That is some really weird BS right there. All of these pages of discussion, and not a single one of you can show an actual scriptural reference for this crazy Catholic belief that Mary was sinless and an eternal virgin. In other words, it is totally man-made nonsense.
Knock yourselves out, Catholics.
And if they are going to pray to someone for intercession, shouldn't they be praying to the disciples rather than Mary? Because Jesus directly told the disciples:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:
Let's be clear folks, an angel named Gabriel said "Hail Mary, full of Grace (ave Maria gratia plena)"
Now I don't know about those here but I'm no angel and I'm certainly not THE angel that GOD chose or commanded to go speak with the new Eve, the new ark about the proposition of giving birth miraculously to God, His son, in the flesh. (Please note what Martin Luther said about Mary's virginity. It will shock some lol)
Now if anyone chooses to repeat the words of the hand picked Gabriel, by God we might add, please know, you will likely burn in hell, well according to a poster or two
REPENT!!!!!! Be gone demons!!!
Gabriel damned a couple billion catholics at any given time to hell for all eternity. Who knew!
Don't deny it! You're saying what he said! We have eyes on you and know how God will judge you repeating this words of Angel Gabriel.
You can all ask how Gabriel got to hell as well when you get there. Bring sun screen.
Gabriel was sent by God to deliver a message to Mary.
That is far, far different than worshipping Mary with shrines, statues, prayers and songs.
If an angelic visitation is the threshold... they why don't you guys worship & pray to Moses. Surely seeing & hearing God through the burning bush is enough for you guys to build a few shrines and make up some prayers to him.
I've never heard a Mail Moses prayer... maybe it exists.
How about a Hail Peter or Hail John or Hail James? Didn't they all have angelic visitations? Didn't they all know and see Jesus before and after his resurrection?
No... Catholics have a very weird fixation with Mary... and an even more weird fixation with her sex life. I'll never understand why Catholics created an entire doctrine around the sex life of Jesus mother. So very strange. If you disagree with Catholics about Mary knocking boots with her husband.. then they believe you will go to hell. That is some really weird BS right there. All of these pages of discussion, and not a single one of you can show an actual scriptural reference for this crazy Catholic belief that Mary was sinless and an eternal virgin. In other words, it is totally man-made nonsense.
Knock yourselves out, Catholics.
Fre3dombear said:historian said:
I appreciate your clear statement of faith and I think you nailed it. It definitely is all about faith, as stated repeatedly throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. For example, the most famous verse, John 3:16, is very clear about it. But we also cannot discount works, as James argued very effectively.
I don't think denomination matters much at all. It's about one's personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior. While I have serious doctrinal issues with various faiths or denominations, I cannot conclude whether or not another person is saved. That is between each one of us and God. Only He can say definitely. But I do have strong doubts when someone openly contradicts God's word, effectively calling God a liar.
You make some great points. Plus there's like 45,000 "faiths" in Christianity and some here can't or won't even say what they belong to or they just say "we're bible" which I guess is also one of the 45,000
Assassin said:Martin Luther nailed it...KaiBear said:I enjoy being Catholic. Glad my wife , daughter and grandchildren are practicing Catholics .FLBear5630 said:Wow, you are really into the Mary stuff.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I guess you don't read the "Heaven" thread. This is all true, of course, but you're never going to get them to admit it. The way they get around it is that they say that since all these actions are not being done towards God, then it isn't worship. They created a semantic system, where "latria" is worship of God, whereas "dulia" is only "reverance" or "veneration". So if you pray or bow to God and sing hymns to him, that's "latria". If you do the exact same things to Mary or a saint, it's only "dulia". Different word, so it's not the same thing. There, fixed it!ShooterTX said:Why do we have to get into Mary's virginity? Because the Roman Catholics made it an issue of heaven or hell. They are the only ones on the planet who actually teach that if you disagree with their teaching on Mary's sex life... then you will go to hell.FLBear5630 said:No, it was a discussion. It was a things that piss me off about the Catholic Church, from an Ugly Baby perspective in a Pope Leo thread. Mary perpetual virginity and Paul, piss me off. Mary's perpetual virginity , why go there??? Not rejecting, just why? Do we really have to get into that?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Well, yes.... isn't that the point?FLBear5630 said:Such a judgmental Christian. Your denomination teach to tell who is right and who is wrong?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Am I the one who's been blowing up whenever they're asked a totally legit question about their own religion?FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell."Quote:
You do realize we will not come to resolution on this right? According to Freedom, even having your own view on anything the Bible is Hubris. So, how do you come to a common place to move forward if you can't even have your own view? I threw out one as a bone, my issue with Matys lifelong virginity and it turned I to the inquisition. Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell. I never bought into Paul, the other one. I am waitiing for the religious police to xo.e to my house on that.
So, we will go back to our corners and only talk with those that agree. What a waste of an opportunity with these Boards.
That's YOUR OWN religion saying that!! My God, something is just... wrong with you.
You need Pope Francis... Your faith is supposed to bring you joy. It seems just get you mad.
And you can keep Pope Francis. I'm not sure you want to follow in his footsteps. They might not be going where you want to go.
And I'm trying to teach you that YOUR OWN religion is judging you and telling you what is right and wrong about your beliefs, and that it'd better be what they say is right or you go to Hell. Good grief, are you paying any attention? (*like I said, I know you are, judging by your reaction).
And Paul. He is either telling us what we did wrong, what to do or asking for money. If the reading is Acts or one of the Books of Paul, be prepared your gonna get yelled at and hit up for money... : ) Who the hell writes 14 books, but a know it all.
That is my discussion on this stuff. Pretty shallow, you over estimate the depth here....
Protestants are NOT saying that you are going to hell over Mary's sex life... that is 100% the Catholics.
I agree with you that it is a silly topic, and it has never been a topic that anyone in the Protestant side has ever really cared about... except to point out how ridiculous it is.
The only reason that Protestants bring up Mary, is because she is worshipped in the Catholic religion.
Before you say that Catholics don't worship Mary... answer these questions:
1. Do Catholics say special prayers to Mary?
2. Do Catholics sing special worship & praise songs to Mary and about Mary?
3. Do Catholics build shrines to Mary?
4. Do Catholics put statues & images of Mary in the most prominent positions in their churches & cathedrals?
5. Do Catholics do pilgrimages just to visit places where supposedly the image of Mary appeared?
6. How many Catholic "holy" sites exist around the world, that are specifically named & dedicated to Mary? Hundreds? Thousands?
Perhaps the Catechisms don't specifically call for Catholics to worship Mary... but the actions of Catholics certainly do. When is the last time you heard a Pope rebuke Catholics for engaging in these forms of worshipping Mary?
This is the reason why Catholics have been so obsessed with Mary's sex life. They want to create the idea that she was far and above normal people, so she can be worthy of worship.
If you really have a problem with Mary's perpetual virginity, then you don't have a problem with Protestants, you have a problem with Catholics.
Now to Mary, they treat her with SO much "dulia" that to any objective person it's as if she is a goddess. No, no, they say. That's only "hyper-dulia". A high degree of dulia, yes, but still not "latria". Different word than "latria", so it's not worship - get it? It just flat out amazes me that they got people to actually buy this. It'd be no different than a married person telling their spouse "No, honey, I didn't cheat on you with another woman/man. I only went out on dates with them and kissed them - that's only love between friends. My love for you is the love for a spouse." But the spouse says, "But you had sex with them too, that's more than just friendship". He/she replies, "No, no, see, intercourse with YOU is "sex". Intercourse with another is only hyper-friendship."
What amazes me more than the fact that they think they can fool others, even themselves with this, is that they think they can fool God.
Uninterested in attempting to belittle any aspect of Protestant dogma.
historian said:Fre3dombear said:historian said:
I appreciate your clear statement of faith and I think you nailed it. It definitely is all about faith, as stated repeatedly throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. For example, the most famous verse, John 3:16, is very clear about it. But we also cannot discount works, as James argued very effectively.
I don't think denomination matters much at all. It's about one's personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior. While I have serious doctrinal issues with various faiths or denominations, I cannot conclude whether or not another person is saved. That is between each one of us and God. Only He can say definitely. But I do have strong doubts when someone openly contradicts God's word, effectively calling God a liar.
You make some great points. Plus there's like 45,000 "faiths" in Christianity and some here can't or won't even say what they belong to or they just say "we're bible" which I guess is also one of the 45,000
There is only one Christian church: those who follow Jesus Christ and His teachings. There are also a bunch of denominations, which is sad since they all should agree on the basic important issues. But they gong all agree because of different interpretations & nuances. Too many people make the church about themselves instead of about worshipping God. Pride gets in the way.
And then there are those with false teachings. Any church that does not put Christ first, does not preach the gospel, that does not proclaim Christ as the perfect Son of God who died for our sins and rose from the dead, or that waters down any part of the gospel is likely teaching falsehoods. It was a problem 2,000 years ago and has been ever since. Jesus Christ Himself warned about it.
The basic message is pretty simple but the details get complicated. It is incumbent upon all of us to know God's word so that we can answer people when they ask what we believe. Education is also part of the sanctification process & very rewarding in of itself.
Bonhoeffer was a true heroAssassin said:What is interesting was that Luther was a lifetime Catholic until he was excom'd by Pope Leo and the Roman Catholic Church, followed by the Edict of Worms, which declared Luther an outlaw and heretic, then Martin Luther basically caused the "Council of Trent" by the Catholics (which was started before, but finished after he died) which moved to wipe out all of his work, the 95 theses, and also segregated Jews, put them in ghetto's and so forth.KaiBear said:Assassin said:Martin Luther nailed it...KaiBear said:I enjoy being Catholic. Glad my wife , daughter and grandchildren are practicing Catholics .FLBear5630 said:Wow, you are really into the Mary stuff.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I guess you don't read the "Heaven" thread. This is all true, of course, but you're never going to get them to admit it. The way they get around it is that they say that since all these actions are not being done towards God, then it isn't worship. They created a semantic system, where "latria" is worship of God, whereas "dulia" is only "reverance" or "veneration". So if you pray or bow to God and sing hymns to him, that's "latria". If you do the exact same things to Mary or a saint, it's only "dulia". Different word, so it's not the same thing. There, fixed it!ShooterTX said:Why do we have to get into Mary's virginity? Because the Roman Catholics made it an issue of heaven or hell. They are the only ones on the planet who actually teach that if you disagree with their teaching on Mary's sex life... then you will go to hell.FLBear5630 said:No, it was a discussion. It was a things that piss me off about the Catholic Church, from an Ugly Baby perspective in a Pope Leo thread. Mary perpetual virginity and Paul, piss me off. Mary's perpetual virginity , why go there??? Not rejecting, just why? Do we really have to get into that?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Well, yes.... isn't that the point?FLBear5630 said:Such a judgmental Christian. Your denomination teach to tell who is right and who is wrong?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Am I the one who's been blowing up whenever they're asked a totally legit question about their own religion?FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell."Quote:
You do realize we will not come to resolution on this right? According to Freedom, even having your own view on anything the Bible is Hubris. So, how do you come to a common place to move forward if you can't even have your own view? I threw out one as a bone, my issue with Matys lifelong virginity and it turned I to the inquisition. Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell. I never bought into Paul, the other one. I am waitiing for the religious police to xo.e to my house on that.
So, we will go back to our corners and only talk with those that agree. What a waste of an opportunity with these Boards.
That's YOUR OWN religion saying that!! My God, something is just... wrong with you.
You need Pope Francis... Your faith is supposed to bring you joy. It seems just get you mad.
And you can keep Pope Francis. I'm not sure you want to follow in his footsteps. They might not be going where you want to go.
And I'm trying to teach you that YOUR OWN religion is judging you and telling you what is right and wrong about your beliefs, and that it'd better be what they say is right or you go to Hell. Good grief, are you paying any attention? (*like I said, I know you are, judging by your reaction).
And Paul. He is either telling us what we did wrong, what to do or asking for money. If the reading is Acts or one of the Books of Paul, be prepared your gonna get yelled at and hit up for money... : ) Who the hell writes 14 books, but a know it all.
That is my discussion on this stuff. Pretty shallow, you over estimate the depth here....
Protestants are NOT saying that you are going to hell over Mary's sex life... that is 100% the Catholics.
I agree with you that it is a silly topic, and it has never been a topic that anyone in the Protestant side has ever really cared about... except to point out how ridiculous it is.
The only reason that Protestants bring up Mary, is because she is worshipped in the Catholic religion.
Before you say that Catholics don't worship Mary... answer these questions:
1. Do Catholics say special prayers to Mary?
2. Do Catholics sing special worship & praise songs to Mary and about Mary?
3. Do Catholics build shrines to Mary?
4. Do Catholics put statues & images of Mary in the most prominent positions in their churches & cathedrals?
5. Do Catholics do pilgrimages just to visit places where supposedly the image of Mary appeared?
6. How many Catholic "holy" sites exist around the world, that are specifically named & dedicated to Mary? Hundreds? Thousands?
Perhaps the Catechisms don't specifically call for Catholics to worship Mary... but the actions of Catholics certainly do. When is the last time you heard a Pope rebuke Catholics for engaging in these forms of worshipping Mary?
This is the reason why Catholics have been so obsessed with Mary's sex life. They want to create the idea that she was far and above normal people, so she can be worthy of worship.
If you really have a problem with Mary's perpetual virginity, then you don't have a problem with Protestants, you have a problem with Catholics.
Now to Mary, they treat her with SO much "dulia" that to any objective person it's as if she is a goddess. No, no, they say. That's only "hyper-dulia". A high degree of dulia, yes, but still not "latria". Different word than "latria", so it's not worship - get it? It just flat out amazes me that they got people to actually buy this. It'd be no different than a married person telling their spouse "No, honey, I didn't cheat on you with another woman/man. I only went out on dates with them and kissed them - that's only love between friends. My love for you is the love for a spouse." But the spouse says, "But you had sex with them too, that's more than just friendship". He/she replies, "No, no, see, intercourse with YOU is "sex". Intercourse with another is only hyper-friendship."
What amazes me more than the fact that they think they can fool others, even themselves with this, is that they think they can fool God.
Uninterested in attempting to belittle any aspect of Protestant dogma.
Martin Luther certainly had his ups and downs.
In the lattter part of his life he went on an extremely vicious campaign against Jews.
At one point even published a doctrine suggesting it might be a mortal sin NOT to kill a Jew when possible.
A conveniently buried piece of 20th century history is how Hitler and the Nazis used Luther's antisemitism as a 'justification' for massacring millions of Jews in the Death Camps.
Of course Hitler also massacred Catholics , Slavs , Gypsies and Russians.
From what I remember from reading his bio, Luther changed his views on Jews when he learned of Jewish usury practices, which were financially enslaving the poorer German people.
Add, I'm no religious scholar, by any means, but I did write a yet-to-be-picked-up book on D. Bonhoeffer. Just sent it over to TCU Press who did pick up another of my books. Got another one coming out next year I hope "The Other Bennie", the fella that brought Bennie Binion into the Warren Diamond gang in Dallas. Breaks down the mafia structure in Dallas.
I love history!
Yes he was. Hung along with Admiral Canaris by the Nazi less than 2 weeks before the Allied troops liberated FlossenburgFLBear5630 said:Bonhoeffer was a true heroAssassin said:What is interesting was that Luther was a lifetime Catholic until he was excom'd by Pope Leo and the Roman Catholic Church, followed by the Edict of Worms, which declared Luther an outlaw and heretic, then Martin Luther basically caused the "Council of Trent" by the Catholics (which was started before, but finished after he died) which moved to wipe out all of his work, the 95 theses, and also segregated Jews, put them in ghetto's and so forth.KaiBear said:Assassin said:Martin Luther nailed it...KaiBear said:I enjoy being Catholic. Glad my wife , daughter and grandchildren are practicing Catholics .FLBear5630 said:Wow, you are really into the Mary stuff.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I guess you don't read the "Heaven" thread. This is all true, of course, but you're never going to get them to admit it. The way they get around it is that they say that since all these actions are not being done towards God, then it isn't worship. They created a semantic system, where "latria" is worship of God, whereas "dulia" is only "reverance" or "veneration". So if you pray or bow to God and sing hymns to him, that's "latria". If you do the exact same things to Mary or a saint, it's only "dulia". Different word, so it's not the same thing. There, fixed it!ShooterTX said:Why do we have to get into Mary's virginity? Because the Roman Catholics made it an issue of heaven or hell. They are the only ones on the planet who actually teach that if you disagree with their teaching on Mary's sex life... then you will go to hell.FLBear5630 said:No, it was a discussion. It was a things that piss me off about the Catholic Church, from an Ugly Baby perspective in a Pope Leo thread. Mary perpetual virginity and Paul, piss me off. Mary's perpetual virginity , why go there??? Not rejecting, just why? Do we really have to get into that?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Well, yes.... isn't that the point?FLBear5630 said:Such a judgmental Christian. Your denomination teach to tell who is right and who is wrong?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Am I the one who's been blowing up whenever they're asked a totally legit question about their own religion?FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell."Quote:
You do realize we will not come to resolution on this right? According to Freedom, even having your own view on anything the Bible is Hubris. So, how do you come to a common place to move forward if you can't even have your own view? I threw out one as a bone, my issue with Matys lifelong virginity and it turned I to the inquisition. Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell. I never bought into Paul, the other one. I am waitiing for the religious police to xo.e to my house on that.
So, we will go back to our corners and only talk with those that agree. What a waste of an opportunity with these Boards.
That's YOUR OWN religion saying that!! My God, something is just... wrong with you.
You need Pope Francis... Your faith is supposed to bring you joy. It seems just get you mad.
And you can keep Pope Francis. I'm not sure you want to follow in his footsteps. They might not be going where you want to go.
And I'm trying to teach you that YOUR OWN religion is judging you and telling you what is right and wrong about your beliefs, and that it'd better be what they say is right or you go to Hell. Good grief, are you paying any attention? (*like I said, I know you are, judging by your reaction).
And Paul. He is either telling us what we did wrong, what to do or asking for money. If the reading is Acts or one of the Books of Paul, be prepared your gonna get yelled at and hit up for money... : ) Who the hell writes 14 books, but a know it all.
That is my discussion on this stuff. Pretty shallow, you over estimate the depth here....
Protestants are NOT saying that you are going to hell over Mary's sex life... that is 100% the Catholics.
I agree with you that it is a silly topic, and it has never been a topic that anyone in the Protestant side has ever really cared about... except to point out how ridiculous it is.
The only reason that Protestants bring up Mary, is because she is worshipped in the Catholic religion.
Before you say that Catholics don't worship Mary... answer these questions:
1. Do Catholics say special prayers to Mary?
2. Do Catholics sing special worship & praise songs to Mary and about Mary?
3. Do Catholics build shrines to Mary?
4. Do Catholics put statues & images of Mary in the most prominent positions in their churches & cathedrals?
5. Do Catholics do pilgrimages just to visit places where supposedly the image of Mary appeared?
6. How many Catholic "holy" sites exist around the world, that are specifically named & dedicated to Mary? Hundreds? Thousands?
Perhaps the Catechisms don't specifically call for Catholics to worship Mary... but the actions of Catholics certainly do. When is the last time you heard a Pope rebuke Catholics for engaging in these forms of worshipping Mary?
This is the reason why Catholics have been so obsessed with Mary's sex life. They want to create the idea that she was far and above normal people, so she can be worthy of worship.
If you really have a problem with Mary's perpetual virginity, then you don't have a problem with Protestants, you have a problem with Catholics.
Now to Mary, they treat her with SO much "dulia" that to any objective person it's as if she is a goddess. No, no, they say. That's only "hyper-dulia". A high degree of dulia, yes, but still not "latria". Different word than "latria", so it's not worship - get it? It just flat out amazes me that they got people to actually buy this. It'd be no different than a married person telling their spouse "No, honey, I didn't cheat on you with another woman/man. I only went out on dates with them and kissed them - that's only love between friends. My love for you is the love for a spouse." But the spouse says, "But you had sex with them too, that's more than just friendship". He/she replies, "No, no, see, intercourse with YOU is "sex". Intercourse with another is only hyper-friendship."
What amazes me more than the fact that they think they can fool others, even themselves with this, is that they think they can fool God.
Uninterested in attempting to belittle any aspect of Protestant dogma.
Martin Luther certainly had his ups and downs.
In the lattter part of his life he went on an extremely vicious campaign against Jews.
At one point even published a doctrine suggesting it might be a mortal sin NOT to kill a Jew when possible.
A conveniently buried piece of 20th century history is how Hitler and the Nazis used Luther's antisemitism as a 'justification' for massacring millions of Jews in the Death Camps.
Of course Hitler also massacred Catholics , Slavs , Gypsies and Russians.
From what I remember from reading his bio, Luther changed his views on Jews when he learned of Jewish usury practices, which were financially enslaving the poorer German people.
Add, I'm no religious scholar, by any means, but I did write a yet-to-be-picked-up book on D. Bonhoeffer. Just sent it over to TCU Press who did pick up another of my books. Got another one coming out next year I hope "The Other Bennie", the fella that brought Bennie Binion into the Warren Diamond gang in Dallas. Breaks down the mafia structure in Dallas.
I love history!
Assassin said:What is interesting was that Luther was a lifetime Catholic until he was excom'd by Pope Leo and the Roman Catholic Church, followed by the Edict of Worms, which declared Luther an outlaw and heretic, then Martin Luther basically caused the "Council of Trent" by the Catholics (which was started before, but finished after he died) which moved to wipe out all of his work, the 95 theses, and also segregated Jews, put them in ghetto's and so forth.KaiBear said:Assassin said:Martin Luther nailed it...KaiBear said:I enjoy being Catholic. Glad my wife , daughter and grandchildren are practicing Catholics .FLBear5630 said:Wow, you are really into the Mary stuff.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I guess you don't read the "Heaven" thread. This is all true, of course, but you're never going to get them to admit it. The way they get around it is that they say that since all these actions are not being done towards God, then it isn't worship. They created a semantic system, where "latria" is worship of God, whereas "dulia" is only "reverance" or "veneration". So if you pray or bow to God and sing hymns to him, that's "latria". If you do the exact same things to Mary or a saint, it's only "dulia". Different word, so it's not the same thing. There, fixed it!ShooterTX said:Why do we have to get into Mary's virginity? Because the Roman Catholics made it an issue of heaven or hell. They are the only ones on the planet who actually teach that if you disagree with their teaching on Mary's sex life... then you will go to hell.FLBear5630 said:No, it was a discussion. It was a things that piss me off about the Catholic Church, from an Ugly Baby perspective in a Pope Leo thread. Mary perpetual virginity and Paul, piss me off. Mary's perpetual virginity , why go there??? Not rejecting, just why? Do we really have to get into that?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Well, yes.... isn't that the point?FLBear5630 said:Such a judgmental Christian. Your denomination teach to tell who is right and who is wrong?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Am I the one who's been blowing up whenever they're asked a totally legit question about their own religion?FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell."Quote:
You do realize we will not come to resolution on this right? According to Freedom, even having your own view on anything the Bible is Hubris. So, how do you come to a common place to move forward if you can't even have your own view? I threw out one as a bone, my issue with Matys lifelong virginity and it turned I to the inquisition. Complete with answer yes or no, wrong answer sends you to Hell. I never bought into Paul, the other one. I am waitiing for the religious police to xo.e to my house on that.
So, we will go back to our corners and only talk with those that agree. What a waste of an opportunity with these Boards.
That's YOUR OWN religion saying that!! My God, something is just... wrong with you.
You need Pope Francis... Your faith is supposed to bring you joy. It seems just get you mad.
And you can keep Pope Francis. I'm not sure you want to follow in his footsteps. They might not be going where you want to go.
And I'm trying to teach you that YOUR OWN religion is judging you and telling you what is right and wrong about your beliefs, and that it'd better be what they say is right or you go to Hell. Good grief, are you paying any attention? (*like I said, I know you are, judging by your reaction).
And Paul. He is either telling us what we did wrong, what to do or asking for money. If the reading is Acts or one of the Books of Paul, be prepared your gonna get yelled at and hit up for money... : ) Who the hell writes 14 books, but a know it all.
That is my discussion on this stuff. Pretty shallow, you over estimate the depth here....
Protestants are NOT saying that you are going to hell over Mary's sex life... that is 100% the Catholics.
I agree with you that it is a silly topic, and it has never been a topic that anyone in the Protestant side has ever really cared about... except to point out how ridiculous it is.
The only reason that Protestants bring up Mary, is because she is worshipped in the Catholic religion.
Before you say that Catholics don't worship Mary... answer these questions:
1. Do Catholics say special prayers to Mary?
2. Do Catholics sing special worship & praise songs to Mary and about Mary?
3. Do Catholics build shrines to Mary?
4. Do Catholics put statues & images of Mary in the most prominent positions in their churches & cathedrals?
5. Do Catholics do pilgrimages just to visit places where supposedly the image of Mary appeared?
6. How many Catholic "holy" sites exist around the world, that are specifically named & dedicated to Mary? Hundreds? Thousands?
Perhaps the Catechisms don't specifically call for Catholics to worship Mary... but the actions of Catholics certainly do. When is the last time you heard a Pope rebuke Catholics for engaging in these forms of worshipping Mary?
This is the reason why Catholics have been so obsessed with Mary's sex life. They want to create the idea that she was far and above normal people, so she can be worthy of worship.
If you really have a problem with Mary's perpetual virginity, then you don't have a problem with Protestants, you have a problem with Catholics.
Now to Mary, they treat her with SO much "dulia" that to any objective person it's as if she is a goddess. No, no, they say. That's only "hyper-dulia". A high degree of dulia, yes, but still not "latria". Different word than "latria", so it's not worship - get it? It just flat out amazes me that they got people to actually buy this. It'd be no different than a married person telling their spouse "No, honey, I didn't cheat on you with another woman/man. I only went out on dates with them and kissed them - that's only love between friends. My love for you is the love for a spouse." But the spouse says, "But you had sex with them too, that's more than just friendship". He/she replies, "No, no, see, intercourse with YOU is "sex". Intercourse with another is only hyper-friendship."
What amazes me more than the fact that they think they can fool others, even themselves with this, is that they think they can fool God.
Uninterested in attempting to belittle any aspect of Protestant dogma.
Martin Luther certainly had his ups and downs.
In the lattter part of his life he went on an extremely vicious campaign against Jews.
At one point even published a doctrine suggesting it might be a mortal sin NOT to kill a Jew when possible.
A conveniently buried piece of 20th century history is how Hitler and the Nazis used Luther's antisemitism as a 'justification' for massacring millions of Jews in the Death Camps.
Of course Hitler also massacred Catholics , Slavs , Gypsies and Russians.
From what I remember from reading his bio, Luther changed his views on Jews when he learned of Jewish usury practices, which were financially enslaving the poorer German people.
Add, I'm no religious scholar, by any means, but I did write a yet-to-be-picked-up book on D. Bonhoeffer. Just sent it over to TCU Press who did pick up another of my books. Got another one coming out next year I hope "The Other Bennie", the fella that brought Bennie Binion into the Warren Diamond gang in Dallas. Breaks down the mafia structure in Dallas.
I love history!
FLBear5630 said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:
Let's be clear folks, an angel named Gabriel said "Hail Mary, full of Grace (ave Maria gratia plena)"
Now I don't know about those here but I'm no angel and I'm certainly not THE angel that GOD chose or commanded to go speak with the new Eve, the new ark about the proposition of giving birth miraculously to God, His son, in the flesh. (Please note what Martin Luther said about Mary's virginity. It will shock some lol)
Now if anyone chooses to repeat the words of the hand picked Gabriel, by God we might add, please know, you will likely burn in hell, well according to a poster or two
REPENT!!!!!! Be gone demons!!!
Gabriel damned a couple billion catholics at any given time to hell for all eternity. Who knew!
Don't deny it! You're saying what he said! We have eyes on you and know how God will judge you repeating this words of Angel Gabriel.
You can all ask how Gabriel got to hell as well when you get there. Bring sun screen.
Gabriel was sent by God to deliver a message to Mary.
That is far, far different than worshipping Mary with shrines, statues, prayers and songs.
If an angelic visitation is the threshold... they why don't you guys worship & pray to Moses. Surely seeing & hearing God through the burning bush is enough for you guys to build a few shrines and make up some prayers to him.
I've never heard a Mail Moses prayer... maybe it exists.
How about a Hail Peter or Hail John or Hail James? Didn't they all have angelic visitations? Didn't they all know and see Jesus before and after his resurrection?
No... Catholics have a very weird fixation with Mary... and an even more weird fixation with her sex life. I'll never understand why Catholics created an entire doctrine around the sex life of Jesus mother. So very strange. If you disagree with Catholics about Mary knocking boots with her husband.. then they believe you will go to hell. That is some really weird BS right there. All of these pages of discussion, and not a single one of you can show an actual scriptural reference for this crazy Catholic belief that Mary was sinless and an eternal virgin. In other words, it is totally man-made nonsense.
Knock yourselves out, Catholics.
Yet you guys seem to love talking about it. Really seems to be a weird fixation. Have you ever read
Luthers views on Mary? Here is a taste, there is .let.
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace. God has given Mary the honor to be the Mother of God and this honor we all wish to give her, to praise her highly, and to hold her in respect. But we must thereby enter the right path, and this way is Christ, for Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ and she bore Christ for me, not herself. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)
I love how you know that Gabriel's honoring is not meant to be followed or emulated, even though it is in scripture. Now that doesn't count? Can you send me your key to what is literal and what isn't? So far we have scripture readings that do f count as:
Peter the rock and keys.
Gabriel telling Mary is honored among women.
Paul telling to take no wife. (Not to be followed)
Lets face it, you guys seem to pick and choose whAt is scriptural to follow and what isn't. Personally I could care less, but you guys keep coming after the Catholics in Catholic posts. With crap like Yes or No answer. What crap is that?
ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:
Let's be clear folks, an angel named Gabriel said "Hail Mary, full of Grace (ave Maria gratia plena)"
Now I don't know about those here but I'm no angel and I'm certainly not THE angel that GOD chose or commanded to go speak with the new Eve, the new ark about the proposition of giving birth miraculously to God, His son, in the flesh. (Please note what Martin Luther said about Mary's virginity. It will shock some lol)
Now if anyone chooses to repeat the words of the hand picked Gabriel, by God we might add, please know, you will likely burn in hell, well according to a poster or two
REPENT!!!!!! Be gone demons!!!
Gabriel damned a couple billion catholics at any given time to hell for all eternity. Who knew!
Don't deny it! You're saying what he said! We have eyes on you and know how God will judge you repeating this words of Angel Gabriel.
You can all ask how Gabriel got to hell as well when you get there. Bring sun screen.
Gabriel was sent by God to deliver a message to Mary.
That is far, far different than worshipping Mary with shrines, statues, prayers and songs.
If an angelic visitation is the threshold... they why don't you guys worship & pray to Moses. Surely seeing & hearing God through the burning bush is enough for you guys to build a few shrines and make up some prayers to him.
I've never heard a Mail Moses prayer... maybe it exists.
How about a Hail Peter or Hail John or Hail James? Didn't they all have angelic visitations? Didn't they all know and see Jesus before and after his resurrection?
No... Catholics have a very weird fixation with Mary... and an even more weird fixation with her sex life. I'll never understand why Catholics created an entire doctrine around the sex life of Jesus mother. So very strange. If you disagree with Catholics about Mary knocking boots with her husband.. then they believe you will go to hell. That is some really weird BS right there. All of these pages of discussion, and not a single one of you can show an actual scriptural reference for this crazy Catholic belief that Mary was sinless and an eternal virgin. In other words, it is totally man-made nonsense.
Knock yourselves out, Catholics.
ShooterTX said:FLBear5630 said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:
Let's be clear folks, an angel named Gabriel said "Hail Mary, full of Grace (ave Maria gratia plena)"
Now I don't know about those here but I'm no angel and I'm certainly not THE angel that GOD chose or commanded to go speak with the new Eve, the new ark about the proposition of giving birth miraculously to God, His son, in the flesh. (Please note what Martin Luther said about Mary's virginity. It will shock some lol)
Now if anyone chooses to repeat the words of the hand picked Gabriel, by God we might add, please know, you will likely burn in hell, well according to a poster or two
REPENT!!!!!! Be gone demons!!!
Gabriel damned a couple billion catholics at any given time to hell for all eternity. Who knew!
Don't deny it! You're saying what he said! We have eyes on you and know how God will judge you repeating this words of Angel Gabriel.
You can all ask how Gabriel got to hell as well when you get there. Bring sun screen.
Gabriel was sent by God to deliver a message to Mary.
That is far, far different than worshipping Mary with shrines, statues, prayers and songs.
If an angelic visitation is the threshold... they why don't you guys worship & pray to Moses. Surely seeing & hearing God through the burning bush is enough for you guys to build a few shrines and make up some prayers to him.
I've never heard a Mail Moses prayer... maybe it exists.
How about a Hail Peter or Hail John or Hail James? Didn't they all have angelic visitations? Didn't they all know and see Jesus before and after his resurrection?
No... Catholics have a very weird fixation with Mary... and an even more weird fixation with her sex life. I'll never understand why Catholics created an entire doctrine around the sex life of Jesus mother. So very strange. If you disagree with Catholics about Mary knocking boots with her husband.. then they believe you will go to hell. That is some really weird BS right there. All of these pages of discussion, and not a single one of you can show an actual scriptural reference for this crazy Catholic belief that Mary was sinless and an eternal virgin. In other words, it is totally man-made nonsense.
Knock yourselves out, Catholics.
Yet you guys seem to love talking about it. Really seems to be a weird fixation. Have you ever read
Luthers views on Mary? Here is a taste, there is .let.
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace. God has given Mary the honor to be the Mother of God and this honor we all wish to give her, to praise her highly, and to hold her in respect. But we must thereby enter the right path, and this way is Christ, for Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ and she bore Christ for me, not herself. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)
I love how you know that Gabriel's honoring is not meant to be followed or emulated, even though it is in scripture. Now that doesn't count? Can you send me your key to what is literal and what isn't? So far we have scripture readings that do f count as:
Peter the rock and keys.
Gabriel telling Mary is honored among women.
Paul telling to take no wife. (Not to be followed)
Lets face it, you guys seem to pick and choose whAt is scriptural to follow and what isn't. Personally I could care less, but you guys keep coming after the Catholics in Catholic posts. With crap like Yes or No answer. What crap is that?
I don't really care what Luther said about Mary. I care what the Bible says about praying to someone other than God.
You keep saying that Protestants are obsessed with Mary...and yet we are not the ones who worship her. If anything, we are obsessed with people who claim to follow Christ, and yet they pray more prayers to honor Mary than Jesus. Example: You said you pray the Rosary. My study of the Rosary shows that more than half of the prayers are Mary centric. So who exactly is obsessed with Mary?
Mary was a very blessed and honorable woman. So was Joseph. So were all the apostles & disciples who served with Christ, and walked with him during His years of ministry. So why isn't there a Hail Joseph prayer?
Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, was also visited by Gabriel... where is the Hail Zechariah prayer?
The Bible is very clear that we should only worship God. Mary is not God, and yet Catholics pray more to her than to Jesus. Even if you meet a Catholic who breaks with tradition and actually prays more to God than to Mary... he is still praying to Mary, which is idolatry.
The only reason that I and others bring this up is that we are hopeful that those Catholics who truly want to follow the teaching of Jesus, will repent of their idolatry and follow the true path that Christ gave us. We are not condemning anyone, nor are we angry or trying to pick a fight as you suggested earlier. We truly just want to show you that you are engaged in exactly what God said we should never do... we should never worship anyone or anything other than God. Mary is not God. You have admitted this yourself. So how can there be any justification for praying to her, singing songs of praise to her, building shrines in to worship her, doing pilgrimages to places where she appears... all of this is idolatry.
I hope you will pray to Jesus about this. Ask the Lord to test all of this. Don't ask the saints or Mary... ask God Himself to reveal the truth to you. Remember the words of Jesus: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." in another passage he said: "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Jesus is the only way and the only truth. If you know Jesus, you know the truth and He will set you free.
I'll be praying for you.
Actually, Catholic believes have followed a line back to the first Councils.Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:FLBear5630 said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:
Let's be clear folks, an angel named Gabriel said "Hail Mary, full of Grace (ave Maria gratia plena)"
Now I don't know about those here but I'm no angel and I'm certainly not THE angel that GOD chose or commanded to go speak with the new Eve, the new ark about the proposition of giving birth miraculously to God, His son, in the flesh. (Please note what Martin Luther said about Mary's virginity. It will shock some lol)
Now if anyone chooses to repeat the words of the hand picked Gabriel, by God we might add, please know, you will likely burn in hell, well according to a poster or two
REPENT!!!!!! Be gone demons!!!
Gabriel damned a couple billion catholics at any given time to hell for all eternity. Who knew!
Don't deny it! You're saying what he said! We have eyes on you and know how God will judge you repeating this words of Angel Gabriel.
You can all ask how Gabriel got to hell as well when you get there. Bring sun screen.
Gabriel was sent by God to deliver a message to Mary.
That is far, far different than worshipping Mary with shrines, statues, prayers and songs.
If an angelic visitation is the threshold... they why don't you guys worship & pray to Moses. Surely seeing & hearing God through the burning bush is enough for you guys to build a few shrines and make up some prayers to him.
I've never heard a Mail Moses prayer... maybe it exists.
How about a Hail Peter or Hail John or Hail James? Didn't they all have angelic visitations? Didn't they all know and see Jesus before and after his resurrection?
No... Catholics have a very weird fixation with Mary... and an even more weird fixation with her sex life. I'll never understand why Catholics created an entire doctrine around the sex life of Jesus mother. So very strange. If you disagree with Catholics about Mary knocking boots with her husband.. then they believe you will go to hell. That is some really weird BS right there. All of these pages of discussion, and not a single one of you can show an actual scriptural reference for this crazy Catholic belief that Mary was sinless and an eternal virgin. In other words, it is totally man-made nonsense.
Knock yourselves out, Catholics.
Yet you guys seem to love talking about it. Really seems to be a weird fixation. Have you ever read
Luthers views on Mary? Here is a taste, there is .let.
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace. God has given Mary the honor to be the Mother of God and this honor we all wish to give her, to praise her highly, and to hold her in respect. But we must thereby enter the right path, and this way is Christ, for Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ and she bore Christ for me, not herself. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)
I love how you know that Gabriel's honoring is not meant to be followed or emulated, even though it is in scripture. Now that doesn't count? Can you send me your key to what is literal and what isn't? So far we have scripture readings that do f count as:
Peter the rock and keys.
Gabriel telling Mary is honored among women.
Paul telling to take no wife. (Not to be followed)
Lets face it, you guys seem to pick and choose whAt is scriptural to follow and what isn't. Personally I could care less, but you guys keep coming after the Catholics in Catholic posts. With crap like Yes or No answer. What crap is that?
I don't really care what Luther said about Mary. I care what the Bible says about praying to someone other than God.
You keep saying that Protestants are obsessed with Mary...and yet we are not the ones who worship her. If anything, we are obsessed with people who claim to follow Christ, and yet they pray more prayers to honor Mary than Jesus. Example: You said you pray the Rosary. My study of the Rosary shows that more than half of the prayers are Mary centric. So who exactly is obsessed with Mary?
Mary was a very blessed and honorable woman. So was Joseph. So were all the apostles & disciples who served with Christ, and walked with him during His years of ministry. So why isn't there a Hail Joseph prayer?
Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, was also visited by Gabriel... where is the Hail Zechariah prayer?
The Bible is very clear that we should only worship God. Mary is not God, and yet Catholics pray more to her than to Jesus. Even if you meet a Catholic who breaks with tradition and actually prays more to God than to Mary... he is still praying to Mary, which is idolatry.
The only reason that I and others bring this up is that we are hopeful that those Catholics who truly want to follow the teaching of Jesus, will repent of their idolatry and follow the true path that Christ gave us. We are not condemning anyone, nor are we angry or trying to pick a fight as you suggested earlier. We truly just want to show you that you are engaged in exactly what God said we should never do... we should never worship anyone or anything other than God. Mary is not God. You have admitted this yourself. So how can there be any justification for praying to her, singing songs of praise to her, building shrines in to worship her, doing pilgrimages to places where she appears... all of this is idolatry.
I hope you will pray to Jesus about this. Ask the Lord to test all of this. Don't ask the saints or Mary... ask God Himself to reveal the truth to you. Remember the words of Jesus: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." in another passage he said: "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Jesus is the only way and the only truth. If you know Jesus, you know the truth and He will set you free.
I'll be praying for you.
Ok so now that youve had the revelation that Luther, who created what you appear to follow and another 44,999 Catholic splinter "sects", that the Martin Luther himself wrote he believed Mary was "ever virgin" you don't care what he thinks? That's rich.
Now you're just making stuff up and showing yourself to be not quite as informed as you may think you are.
FLBear5630 said:Actually, Catholic believes have followed a line back to the first Councils.Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:FLBear5630 said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:
Let's be clear folks, an angel named Gabriel said "Hail Mary, full of Grace (ave Maria gratia plena)"
Now I don't know about those here but I'm no angel and I'm certainly not THE angel that GOD chose or commanded to go speak with the new Eve, the new ark about the proposition of giving birth miraculously to God, His son, in the flesh. (Please note what Martin Luther said about Mary's virginity. It will shock some lol)
Now if anyone chooses to repeat the words of the hand picked Gabriel, by God we might add, please know, you will likely burn in hell, well according to a poster or two
REPENT!!!!!! Be gone demons!!!
Gabriel damned a couple billion catholics at any given time to hell for all eternity. Who knew!
Don't deny it! You're saying what he said! We have eyes on you and know how God will judge you repeating this words of Angel Gabriel.
You can all ask how Gabriel got to hell as well when you get there. Bring sun screen.
Gabriel was sent by God to deliver a message to Mary.
That is far, far different than worshipping Mary with shrines, statues, prayers and songs.
If an angelic visitation is the threshold... they why don't you guys worship & pray to Moses. Surely seeing & hearing God through the burning bush is enough for you guys to build a few shrines and make up some prayers to him.
I've never heard a Mail Moses prayer... maybe it exists.
How about a Hail Peter or Hail John or Hail James? Didn't they all have angelic visitations? Didn't they all know and see Jesus before and after his resurrection?
No... Catholics have a very weird fixation with Mary... and an even more weird fixation with her sex life. I'll never understand why Catholics created an entire doctrine around the sex life of Jesus mother. So very strange. If you disagree with Catholics about Mary knocking boots with her husband.. then they believe you will go to hell. That is some really weird BS right there. All of these pages of discussion, and not a single one of you can show an actual scriptural reference for this crazy Catholic belief that Mary was sinless and an eternal virgin. In other words, it is totally man-made nonsense.
Knock yourselves out, Catholics.
Yet you guys seem to love talking about it. Really seems to be a weird fixation. Have you ever read
Luthers views on Mary? Here is a taste, there is .let.
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace. God has given Mary the honor to be the Mother of God and this honor we all wish to give her, to praise her highly, and to hold her in respect. But we must thereby enter the right path, and this way is Christ, for Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ and she bore Christ for me, not herself. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)
I love how you know that Gabriel's honoring is not meant to be followed or emulated, even though it is in scripture. Now that doesn't count? Can you send me your key to what is literal and what isn't? So far we have scripture readings that do f count as:
Peter the rock and keys.
Gabriel telling Mary is honored among women.
Paul telling to take no wife. (Not to be followed)
Lets face it, you guys seem to pick and choose whAt is scriptural to follow and what isn't. Personally I could care less, but you guys keep coming after the Catholics in Catholic posts. With crap like Yes or No answer. What crap is that?
I don't really care what Luther said about Mary. I care what the Bible says about praying to someone other than God.
You keep saying that Protestants are obsessed with Mary...and yet we are not the ones who worship her. If anything, we are obsessed with people who claim to follow Christ, and yet they pray more prayers to honor Mary than Jesus. Example: You said you pray the Rosary. My study of the Rosary shows that more than half of the prayers are Mary centric. So who exactly is obsessed with Mary?
Mary was a very blessed and honorable woman. So was Joseph. So were all the apostles & disciples who served with Christ, and walked with him during His years of ministry. So why isn't there a Hail Joseph prayer?
Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, was also visited by Gabriel... where is the Hail Zechariah prayer?
The Bible is very clear that we should only worship God. Mary is not God, and yet Catholics pray more to her than to Jesus. Even if you meet a Catholic who breaks with tradition and actually prays more to God than to Mary... he is still praying to Mary, which is idolatry.
The only reason that I and others bring this up is that we are hopeful that those Catholics who truly want to follow the teaching of Jesus, will repent of their idolatry and follow the true path that Christ gave us. We are not condemning anyone, nor are we angry or trying to pick a fight as you suggested earlier. We truly just want to show you that you are engaged in exactly what God said we should never do... we should never worship anyone or anything other than God. Mary is not God. You have admitted this yourself. So how can there be any justification for praying to her, singing songs of praise to her, building shrines in to worship her, doing pilgrimages to places where she appears... all of this is idolatry.
I hope you will pray to Jesus about this. Ask the Lord to test all of this. Don't ask the saints or Mary... ask God Himself to reveal the truth to you. Remember the words of Jesus: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." in another passage he said: "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Jesus is the only way and the only truth. If you know Jesus, you know the truth and He will set you free.
I'll be praying for you.
Ok so now that youve had the revelation that Luther, who created what you appear to follow and another 44,999 Catholic splinter "sects", that the Martin Luther himself wrote he believed Mary was "ever virgin" you don't care what he thinks? That's rich.
Now you're just making stuff up and showing yourself to be not quite as informed as you may think you are.
You Protestants can't seem to figure out what to believe. It seems to change from Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and every other Pastor that decides the rules don't fit. So, which one do you guys follow and we are debating. My apologies, should have asked earlier. But, Luther came up, so I figured it was his version of Christianity we were debating. But, if it is a different one let us know. So, who is it that knows better than the Church Fathers and 2000 years of Apostolic Secession? Maybe Wesley? Calvin? Henry XIII? It does matter aparentley.
Sorry, 6 Longboards in at Happy Hour in Kona.
Fre3dombear said:
But you can walk into a Catholic Church most anywhere in the world every Sunday ajd get a consistent message.,,
Quote:
Keep it simple. Keep it traditional. Life is good
historian said:
Don't boast about Catholic charities. Some of them have been engaging in criminal activities: aiding illegal aliens, ripping off the US taxpayers. Human trafficking, etc.
The church itself has more than its share of scandals: pedophilia, covering up clerical sex abuse, the words and actions of Francis contradicting scripture, etc.
All human institutions are flawed, including religious ones. Catholics are not alone in this but they also have far too many.
historian said:
No doubt they do a lot of good helping the poor but they often also actively aid the criminal enterprises of the cartels helping illegals come to the US, helping them evade capture & return, & aiding in sex slavery. It's not all so innocent and benevolent. They often use the good to paper over what is downright evil.
Realitybites said:Fre3dombear said:
But you can walk into a Catholic Church most anywhere in the world every Sunday ajd get a consistent message.,,
You aren't getting the same message at a Tridentine Mass in Nebraska that you are at a Vatican II mass in Minneapolis. You aren't getting the same message at a Vatican II mass in Munich that you are at a Vatican II mass in Mombasa, You aren't getting the same message from Opus Dei that you are from the Jesuits. You aren't getting the same message from Pope John Paul and Pope Francis. In many ways, the "big tent" of the modern Roman Catholic church mirrors the denominationalism of its Protestant rivals.Quote:
Keep it simple. Keep it traditional. Life is good
That's why there's Orthodoxy. Preserving the faith once delivered to the saints since 33 A.D.
Fre3dombear said:Realitybites said:Fre3dombear said:
But you can walk into a Catholic Church most anywhere in the world every Sunday ajd get a consistent message.,,
You aren't getting the same message at a Tridentine Mass in Nebraska that you are at a Vatican II mass in Minneapolis. You aren't getting the same message at a Vatican II mass in Munich that you are at a Vatican II mass in Mombasa, You aren't getting the same message from Opus Dei that you are from the Jesuits. You aren't getting the same message from Pope John Paul and Pope Francis. In many ways, the "big tent" of the modern Roman Catholic church mirrors the denominationalism of its Protestant rivals.Quote:
Keep it simple. Keep it traditional. Life is good
That's why there's Orthodoxy. Preserving the faith once delivered to the saints since 33 A.D.
That's a super weak attempt. If you want to compre standard deviations, happy to relative to those arguing here. It's why there's 44,999 other choices
The Social Doctrine of the Church teaches us that more important than problems themselves—or their eventual solutions—is how we approach them, as we are guided by the criteria of discernment, sound ethical principles, and openness to God’s grace. https://t.co/Bv8dwOLjAH
— Pope Leo XIV (@Pontifex) May 17, 2025
Realitybites said:Fre3dombear said:
But you can walk into a Catholic Church most anywhere in the world every Sunday ajd get a consistent message.,,
You aren't getting the same message at a Tridentine Mass in Nebraska that you are at a Vatican II mass in Minneapolis. You aren't getting the same message at a Vatican II mass in Munich that you are at a Vatican II mass in Mombasa, You aren't getting the same message from Opus Dei that you are from the Jesuits. You aren't getting the same message from Pope John Paul and Pope Francis. In many ways, the "big tent" of the modern Roman Catholic church mirrors the denominationalism of its Protestant rivals.Quote:
Keep it simple. Keep it traditional. Life is good
That's why there's Orthodoxy. Preserving the faith once delivered to the saints since 33 A.D.
the gathering for the sacrament of the eucharist is the reason for everything..FLBear5630 said:Realitybites said:Fre3dombear said:
But you can walk into a Catholic Church most anywhere in the world every Sunday ajd get a consistent message.,,
You aren't getting the same message at a Tridentine Mass in Nebraska that you are at a Vatican II mass in Minneapolis. You aren't getting the same message at a Vatican II mass in Munich that you are at a Vatican II mass in Mombasa, You aren't getting the same message from Opus Dei that you are from the Jesuits. You aren't getting the same message from Pope John Paul and Pope Francis. In many ways, the "big tent" of the modern Roman Catholic church mirrors the denominationalism of its Protestant rivals.Quote:
Keep it simple. Keep it traditional. Life is good
That's why there's Orthodoxy. Preserving the faith once delivered to the saints since 33 A.D.
Sure you do. Regardless of the social message in the homily, the mass is ALWAYS about the Sacrament of communion. You always get a scripture reading, gospel reading, offertory, consecration and communion. Even in the field or in a war zone the basic are offertory, consideration, communion. That is the basis of the Mass. Without it, it is just Bible Study. So it is the same in every Catholic Church in the world.
4th and Inches said:the gathering for the sacrament of the eucharist is the reason for everything..FLBear5630 said:Realitybites said:Fre3dombear said:
But you can walk into a Catholic Church most anywhere in the world every Sunday ajd get a consistent message.,,
You aren't getting the same message at a Tridentine Mass in Nebraska that you are at a Vatican II mass in Minneapolis. You aren't getting the same message at a Vatican II mass in Munich that you are at a Vatican II mass in Mombasa, You aren't getting the same message from Opus Dei that you are from the Jesuits. You aren't getting the same message from Pope John Paul and Pope Francis. In many ways, the "big tent" of the modern Roman Catholic church mirrors the denominationalism of its Protestant rivals.Quote:
Keep it simple. Keep it traditional. Life is good
That's why there's Orthodoxy. Preserving the faith once delivered to the saints since 33 A.D.
Sure you do. Regardless of the social message in the homily, the mass is ALWAYS about the Sacrament of communion. You always get a scripture reading, gospel reading, offertory, consecration and communion. Even in the field or in a war zone the basic are offertory, consideration, communion. That is the basis of the Mass. Without it, it is just Bible Study. So it is the same in every Catholic Church in the world.
