BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
DallasBear9902 said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Sam Lowry said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
FLBear5630 said:
Fre3dombear said:
FLBear5630 said:
Fre3dombear said:
FLBear5630 said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
FLBear5630 said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
FLBear5630 said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
FLBear5630 said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
FLBear5630 said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.
As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .
You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.
You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.
Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.
I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.
If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20
Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.
Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.
Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?
You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.
Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.
If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.
You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.
2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"
1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."
Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?
I had to block that fool. Just non stop hystrionics. I only prefer at this point well thought out arguments of nuance and debate. He / she just emotes
I did too. He just wants to troll.
I dint mind a little passion but trolling and constant name calling is a waste of time. Im generally more interested in why other Catholics think what they do and then other bible faiths / protestants.
Out of that i share my knowledge and understanding and they can tell me im full of it or maybe it makes some question a thing or two or i learn something.
I like the passion and the discussion. I am definitely interested in what other Catholics think. I am not interested in my questions being used against me. I am genuine enough to ask questions, I would appreciate people taking it serious. That clown did not. Trying to talk people out of their believes is low...
Talking people out of their false beliefs isn't low, it's love.
What's low, is when a fellow Catholic of yours KNOWS what you're saying will lead you to Hell according to Roman Catholic beliefs, but says NOTHING.
We don't KNOW what he's saying will lead him to hell. Has he outright denied Catholic dogma? He may be a bit cavalier about it, but what am I supposed to do as a perfect stranger? Cast lightning bolts until he's blinded by my "righteousness?" How well has that worked for you? It's easy enough to sound pious on a message board. You should remember from time to time that you're talking to actual people. Maybe even try leading by example.
If I sound angry, I'm not. I don't consider you the enemy. I say all of this in love. Arguing theology is well and good, but if you want to talk to someone on a personal level you kind of need to earn that right. You're way more interested in winning a debate than anything else, and it shows.
He has been asked point blank if he believes in the Marian dogmas, and he has skirted the question and has been completely evasive. This isn't a "personal" issue, it's a central doctrine of his religion that he is balking on. If that doesn't raise red flags to other Catholics over one of their own regarding a salvivic issue, then what would? If you have no problem arguing with a perfect stranger's wrong beliefs on due process and habeas corpus in political threads, then why would you have a problem with something that has dire eternal consequences according to your belief?
People that say that I'm here just to "win a debate" are merely trying to escape what they know is very shaky ground, and they know I'm holding it to them and won't let go until either they admit it, or expose themselves as BS artists. They can't deny what I'm saying, so their only recourse is to turn it around and make it about something that's wrong with me personally. Then they call me a "clown" and block me because they have no argument. Questioning my motives is always the easy move, because you know I can't prove otherwise in a forum. But regardless of what my motives are... how would that invalidate any of the truth of what I'm saying? Does it make your wrong beliefs all better again?
What are you prattling about? You say you don't understand the Marian teachings but then you are an expert on how Catholics are supposed to understand and apply the teachings? Give it a rest. You don't understand our faith. You don't believe in our faith and thus you are hardly an expert or have any idea on what should raise red flags for Catholics. If you have questions or disagreements, by all means, discuss them. But stop trying to tell people that believe in something you don't how they should respond to that something.
What are YOU "prattling" about?? Where did I say I didn't understand the Marian teachngs? Why is that even relevant? The point was that a Roman Catholic skirted the issue of the Marian dogmas when asked. It doesn't take any kind of an "expert" to know that these beliefs are REQUIRED in Roman Catholicism upon pain of anathema (removal from body of Christ, thus doomed to Hell). Is ANYTHING I'm saying here wrong?
If a fellow Catholic believer was coursing down a path leading to Hell, is it really wrong for someone to suggest that maybe a fellow Catholic believer should at least tell/advise him? Are you serious?? Is it every man for himself in Roman Catholicism?
Yes, what you are saying is wrong because are applying a completely different and improper construct to the Catholic faith. Your construct is decidedly protestant.
I do not have time to go back through all your posts, but your post on 5/18/25 is illustrative:
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Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true
Catholics do not apply a you "must believe x, y, and z for your salvation" construct. We do not used words like "salvivic". We just don't sit around talking about what formula gets you into heaven or not because we mostly view that as the purview of the almighty. Indeed, Pope Francis raised eyebrows late in his papacy when he stated off the cuff that it was his hope that hell was empty, clearly taking the position that admission into heaven is a question for God.
The only people that get any kind of certainty in the Catholic Church regarding heaven are formally canonized as saints, and that is a beast of a process requiring the documented demonstration of two miracles. Canonization can take up to centuries, though others fly through the process. Given your Marian obsession, St. Juan Diego, as a recent relevant example, was canonized as a saint almost 500 years after his death.
You also do not understand what is nonnegotiable and what there is room about for uncertainty/inattention within the Catholic faith. The Catholic faith does not require devotions to any particular saint (other than Jesus, which I say only to be explicitly clear). Devotions to any particular saint are approved, but not required in the Faith. For example, the Marian apparitions and their associated miracles (even the big ones that have affected hundreds of millions of Catholics worldwide) are officially designated by the Church as "private revelations approved for belief" but not required to be believed in by Catholics (full disclosure, in my family we do hold Marian devotions and have traveled multiple times on pilgrimage to Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City and plan to go to Fatima next year; the Basilica of St. Mary Major is perhaps my favorite place in the world).
The Catholic faith leaves judgment of, and redemption of souls, to Jesus. So your insistence on justifying your boorish behavior as being worried about someone on "the path to hell" just does not register with Catholics and comes across as thin cover for your hatred and malice toward your fellow man. While we wish all souls to know the redemption of Jesus, and we want all to be brought to Christ, 99.99% of Catholics would not presume to assert divine judgment over others for themselves by suggesting someone in the CHRISTIAN FAITH is on the path to hell. That is a very protestant construct to apply to the world and your fellow man. We would kindly teach and guide, we would expect others to not counteract or undermine direct and approved Church teachings, but we would not say someone is on the path to hell. That is just not how we talk. We may disagree, we may even attempt to correct.
To the extent that someone's behavior does require excommunication or stronger correction, that, of course, belongs to the clerical class.
If you would like to know what the nonnegotiable stuff in the Catholic faith is, start with the Apostle's Creed and attend a Mass.
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It doesn't take any kind of an "expert" to know that these beliefs are REQUIRED in Roman Catholicism upon pain of anathema (removal from body of Christ, thus doomed to Hell).
Perhaps it does not take an expert, but it certainly takes someone better educated than you. Excommunication is an ecclesiastical penalty and separation from participation in the sacraments (particularly the Eucharist). Excommunicated individuals can and do still attend Mass. Excommunication is a call for repentance and reconciliation with the Church. It is NOT a condemnation to hell. The Catholic Church even teaches that sincerely repented souls who did not reconcile to the Church still go to heaven. Even an anathema (the most severe form of excommunication) is not a damnation of the soul.
