Redbrickbear said:Re: Charlotte's TLM: it really does just illustrate what I've been saying. There are two completely different and implacably opposed religions living in the same institution.
— Hilary White (@HilarityjaneArt) May 23, 2025
Someone on FB said: "Charlotte USED to be such a great diocese for tradition. Heartbreaking!"... pic.twitter.com/JqLfy3VbXF
Pope Leo XIV made the one handed catch pic.twitter.com/xiMj0hhSFw
— Pray The Rosary (@PrayTheRosary12) May 28, 2025
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, you are offended. That's why you post insults, and nothing substantive against what I've said.KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If I'm wrong about anything, they why not show me? If I'm right, then why so offended by me?KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Looks like you've been availing yourself of that safe and free outlet yourself throughout this thread. So ironic.KaiBear said:ClassicBusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
I'm just telling Roman Catholics what they really need to hear.
Thank God for the internet.
Provides a safe and free outlet for haters to release their bile, instead shooting up a Catholic Church or hanging hundreds of Catholics on telephone poles.
No substance to your posts. Just defense mechanisms and shooting the messenger.
LOL
You are no messenger. Just a troubled individual attempting to bolster his ego attacking belief systems different than his own.
Unfortunately there are many just like you.
And innocent people often get hurt.
Not offended.
You are an amusing read.
Thread after thread, post after post insulting, attacking and demeaning anyone who disagrees with you regarding the worlds largest Christian denomination.
Must fill some kind of need in you.
Yes, I have a need to try and free people from mind traps.
Who did I attack and demean? I was the one who was attacked and demeaned. You are a liar.
Yes, absolutely a mind trap.KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, you are offended. That's why you post insults, and nothing substantive against what I've said.KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If I'm wrong about anything, they why not show me? If I'm right, then why so offended by me?KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Looks like you've been availing yourself of that safe and free outlet yourself throughout this thread. So ironic.KaiBear said:ClassicBusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
I'm just telling Roman Catholics what they really need to hear.
Thank God for the internet.
Provides a safe and free outlet for haters to release their bile, instead shooting up a Catholic Church or hanging hundreds of Catholics on telephone poles.
No substance to your posts. Just defense mechanisms and shooting the messenger.
LOL
You are no messenger. Just a troubled individual attempting to bolster his ego attacking belief systems different than his own.
Unfortunately there are many just like you.
And innocent people often get hurt.
Not offended.
You are an amusing read.
Thread after thread, post after post insulting, attacking and demeaning anyone who disagrees with you regarding the worlds largest Christian denomination.
Must fill some kind of need in you.
Yes, I have a need to try and free people from mind traps.
Who did I attack and demean? I was the one who was attacked and demeaned. You are a liar.
A misunderstood genius merely attempting to ' free people from their mind traps'.
First rate.
LOL
Good grief fella your arrogance is in a class by itself.
And what a cost effective venue to show your intellectual superiority.
A free message board .
You must realize at some level , you are not quite right in the head.
No one 'helps' others by relentlessly attacking them and their Faith.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
St. John Chrysostom (c. 347 AD), the highly influential and prolific Archbishop of Constantinople, named a Doctor of the Catholic Church (an honor only 37 people in church history have) on Peter's confession, not Peter himself, being the the "rock" of Matthew 16:Chrysostom, on Peter not being the only one having the "keys", but the apostle John having them as well:Quote:
"And I say unto thee, Thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church': that is, on the faith of his confession." (NPNF Vol. 10, p. 333)
"(Jesus) speaks from this time lowly things, on His way to His passion, that He may show His humanity. For He that has built His church upon Peter's confession, and has so fortified it, that ten thousand dangers and deaths are not to prevail over it…" (NPNF Vol. 10, p. 494)Quote:
"For the son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master's bosom, with much confidence…" (NPNF Vol. XIV, p. 1)
Done.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:The early church history and church fathers are nonsense??FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Sola scriptura in the early church:
Hippolytus of Rome (170 - 235 AD):
"Brethren, there is one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures and no other source."
Origen (200 - 225 AD):
"We believe... that it is possible in no other way to explain and bring within reach of human knowledge... the Son of God, than by means of those Scriptures, which alone were inspired by the Holy Spirit: the Gospels, the Epistles, and the Law and the Prophets."
Athanasius (c. 350 AD):
"For indeed the holy and God-breathed scriptures are self-sufficient for the preaching of the truth."
Augustine (c. 400 AD):
"Neither dare one agree with Catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, with the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God."
I am done. Take your nonsense elsewhere.
Isn't it your claim that your church is the same church Jesus started from the beginning?
The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, absolutely a mind trap.KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, you are offended. That's why you post insults, and nothing substantive against what I've said.KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If I'm wrong about anything, they why not show me? If I'm right, then why so offended by me?KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Looks like you've been availing yourself of that safe and free outlet yourself throughout this thread. So ironic.KaiBear said:ClassicBusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
I'm just telling Roman Catholics what they really need to hear.
Thank God for the internet.
Provides a safe and free outlet for haters to release their bile, instead shooting up a Catholic Church or hanging hundreds of Catholics on telephone poles.
No substance to your posts. Just defense mechanisms and shooting the messenger.
LOL
You are no messenger. Just a troubled individual attempting to bolster his ego attacking belief systems different than his own.
Unfortunately there are many just like you.
And innocent people often get hurt.
Not offended.
You are an amusing read.
Thread after thread, post after post insulting, attacking and demeaning anyone who disagrees with you regarding the worlds largest Christian denomination.
Must fill some kind of need in you.
Yes, I have a need to try and free people from mind traps.
Who did I attack and demean? I was the one who was attacked and demeaned. You are a liar.
A misunderstood genius merely attempting to ' free people from their mind traps'.
First rate.
LOL
Good grief fella your arrogance is in a class by itself.
And what a cost effective venue to show your intellectual superiority.
A free message board .
You must realize at some level , you are not quite right in the head.
No one 'helps' others by relentlessly attacking them and their Faith.
You are following leaders who claim infallibility but whose claims have been shown to be definitively FALSE. The Bible commands you to not follow a person who claims what they say is from God, but is proven false. That is a false prophet, and they are not to be believed and followed. You are also following leaders that fully endorse clear, and unambiguous idolatry of Mary - perhaps the clearest and most obvious indicator that Roman Catholicism is in the wrong to ANYONE who really has the Holy Spirit.
Yet you continue to follow and trust your leaders' authority, despite the clear evidence, and despite what God commanded. This is a mind trap. You have no problem discerning and calling out the mind trap of liberals all day in all the other threads, but ironically you're completely blind to the one you yourself are deeply entrenched in here.
Go ahead and continue lying about me "attacking" others, it only reveals the true spirit behind you. And I am not "attacking" your faith - if anything is, it's the Bible and historical facts. If there are Roman Catholics out there reading this who are honest and truly seeking Jesus and his truth, they will know what I'm saying is true. My comments are for them. They're not for people like you.
FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
There is nothing in Scripture that says the "keys" were to be passed down in line of succession. Church history shows that apostolic succession was viewed as being vital, but only insofar that it ensured correct doctrine was being passed down fully preserved; it was not to give the successors the same infallibility as the original apostles and the authority to reveal new doctrine. Today, we have the doctrine of the original apostles preserved in Scripture. Any church that follows Scripture is indeed succeeding the original apostles and is thus part of Jesus' true church.Realitybites said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
St. John Chrysostom (c. 347 AD), the highly influential and prolific Archbishop of Constantinople, named a Doctor of the Catholic Church (an honor only 37 people in church history have) on Peter's confession, not Peter himself, being the the "rock" of Matthew 16:Chrysostom, on Peter not being the only one having the "keys", but the apostle John having them as well:Quote:
"And I say unto thee, Thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church': that is, on the faith of his confession." (NPNF Vol. 10, p. 333)
"(Jesus) speaks from this time lowly things, on His way to His passion, that He may show His humanity. For He that has built His church upon Peter's confession, and has so fortified it, that ten thousand dangers and deaths are not to prevail over it…" (NPNF Vol. 10, p. 494)Quote:
"For the son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master's bosom, with much confidence…" (NPNF Vol. XIV, p. 1)
You're 100% correct in citing this. But the question is with the office of the keys being an apostolic office, and not just given to Peter, what does this imply for apostolic succession and the churches that cannot claim it?
Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
Was not meant for you. We have discussed things rationally for years. No issues.ShooterTX said:FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
I don't want to engage in personal insults.
Sometimes I make tongue-in-cheek comments or sarcastic responses, but I really don't want to insult people.
It's tough because this is a very personal topic in general... so if I insult Catholicism, it's hard for a catholic to not see that as a personal attack... same for Protestants and protestant beliefs.
I'll go look up that Catechism, and address it directly.
What a stupid, stupid post. Talk about massive hyperbole. No one is "imposing" anything, or advocating killing anyone over any of this.KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, absolutely a mind trap.KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, you are offended. That's why you post insults, and nothing substantive against what I've said.KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If I'm wrong about anything, they why not show me? If I'm right, then why so offended by me?KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Looks like you've been availing yourself of that safe and free outlet yourself throughout this thread. So ironic.KaiBear said:ClassicBusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
I'm just telling Roman Catholics what they really need to hear.
Thank God for the internet.
Provides a safe and free outlet for haters to release their bile, instead shooting up a Catholic Church or hanging hundreds of Catholics on telephone poles.
No substance to your posts. Just defense mechanisms and shooting the messenger.
LOL
You are no messenger. Just a troubled individual attempting to bolster his ego attacking belief systems different than his own.
Unfortunately there are many just like you.
And innocent people often get hurt.
Not offended.
You are an amusing read.
Thread after thread, post after post insulting, attacking and demeaning anyone who disagrees with you regarding the worlds largest Christian denomination.
Must fill some kind of need in you.
Yes, I have a need to try and free people from mind traps.
Who did I attack and demean? I was the one who was attacked and demeaned. You are a liar.
A misunderstood genius merely attempting to ' free people from their mind traps'.
First rate.
LOL
Good grief fella your arrogance is in a class by itself.
And what a cost effective venue to show your intellectual superiority.
A free message board .
You must realize at some level , you are not quite right in the head.
No one 'helps' others by relentlessly attacking them and their Faith.
You are following leaders who claim infallibility but whose claims have been shown to be definitively FALSE. The Bible commands you to not follow a person who claims what they say is from God, but is proven false. That is a false prophet, and they are not to be believed and followed. You are also following leaders that fully endorse clear, and unambiguous idolatry of Mary - perhaps the clearest and most obvious indicator that Roman Catholicism is in the wrong to ANYONE who really has the Holy Spirit.
Yet you continue to follow and trust your leaders' authority, despite the clear evidence, and despite what God commanded. This is a mind trap. You have no problem discerning and calling out the mind trap of liberals all day in all the other threads, but ironically you're completely blind to the one you yourself are deeply entrenched in here.
Go ahead and continue lying about me "attacking" others, it only reveals the true spirit behind you. And I am not "attacking" your faith - if anything is, it's the Bible and historical facts. If there are Roman Catholics out there reading this who are honest and truly seeking Jesus and his truth, they will know what I'm saying is true. My comments are for them. They're not for people like you.
Disturbing thread.
Reminds me how many troubled individuals have imposed their genius' on the belief systems of others throughout history.
Leading to the deaths of millions of people. The vast majority of whom had no idea why they were being slaughtered.
But those responsible were usually convinced they were doing the 'Will of God '
Catholics, Jews, Mormons , Muslims, Protestants , Buddhists and Hindus have all been both the victims and perpetrators of this bloodshed.
IdolatryBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
The Decalogue in the Church's TraditionBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
Copilot's thoughts.....FLBear5630 said:IdolatryBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.
Roman Catholics are doing to Mary exactly what they're describing there - "divinizing what is not God", "honors and reveres a creature in place of God", "you cannot SERVE God and mammon (the Greek word for "serve" there has its root in the word "dulia", which Catholics say is what they're doing to Mary.FLBear5630 said:IdolatryBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.
BearFan33 said:
I'm not saying what is right or wrong....just posted this about the differing views.
1. Protestant Denominations (e.g., Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Evangelical)
Most Protestants reject the practice of praying to saints or Mary. Their concerns include:
Sola Scriptura: They emphasize Scripture alone as the basis for doctrine and argue that there is no biblical command to pray to anyone but God.
Christ as Sole Mediator: Based on verses like 1 Timothy 2:5 ("For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"), they believe that going through saints undermines Christ's unique role.
Fear of Idolatry: Many Protestants see the veneration of saints and Mary as dangerously close to idolatry, even if Catholics distinguish between veneration and worship.
2. Eastern Orthodox Church
The Orthodox Church shares many similarities with Catholicism in this area:
They venerate Mary (Theotokos) and the saints and ask for their intercession.
Like Catholics, they make a clear distinction between worship (latreia) and veneration (douleia).
Icons and prayers to saints are common in Orthodox spirituality, but always with the understanding that God alone is worshipped.
3. Anglican/Episcopalian
Views within Anglicanism vary:
High Church Anglicans (Anglo-Catholics) may practice veneration of saints and prayers for intercession, similar to Catholics.
Low Church Anglicans tend to align more with Protestant views and may avoid such practices.
The Book of Common Prayer includes prayers that honor saints but generally avoids direct prayers to them.
4. Lutheran
Lutherans honor Mary as the Mother of God and respect the saints, but:
They do not pray to them.
Martin Luther retained some Marian doctrines (like the Virgin Birth) but rejected the invocation of saints.
Like other Protestants, they emphasize Christ as the sole mediator.
How does this answer anything? I asked what does the numbering have to do with the fact that you're breaking the commandment about graven images? Good grief, do you have a problem with reading and/or comprehension?FLBear5630 said:The Decalogue in the Church's TraditionBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
2064 In fidelity to Scripture and in conformity with the example of Jesus, the tradition of the Church has
acknowledged the primordial importance and significance of the Decalogue.
2065 Ever since St. Augustine, the Ten Commandments have occupied a predominant place in the catechesis of baptismal candidates and the faithful. In the fifteenth century, the custom arose of expressing the commandments of the Decalogue in rhymed formulae, easy to memorize and in positive form. They are still in use today. the catechisms of the Church have often expounded Christian morality by following the order of the Ten Commandments.
2066 The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. the present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. the Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.
2067 The Ten Commandments state what is required in the love of God and love of neighbor. the first three concern love of God, and the other seven love of neighbor.
As charity comprises the two commandments to which the Lord related the whole Law and the prophets . . . so the Ten Commandments were themselves given on two tablets. Three were written on one tablet and seven on the other.27
2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the
justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors
of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to
every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29
There you go, Straight from the Catechism why the numbering is like it is. Your lucky day, all your Catholic questions being answered Busy. Alleluia...
Can an honest person truly believe there is no act of adoration of Mary, when they bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns of her in church, hold numerous festivals in her honor throughout the year, have pictures and statues of her all over their house, and have prayers of her which call her "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", "our hope and refuge", and they "place their salvation in her hands"?? How is any of this not divinization of Mary?BearFan33 said:Copilot's thoughts.....FLBear5630 said:IdolatryBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.
The key to understanding why Catholics praying to Mary and the saints is not considered idol worship lies in the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholic theology.
1. Worship vs. Veneration2. Role of Saints and Mary
- Worship (latria) is due to God alone. It involves adoration and is reserved for the Holy TrinityFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.
- Veneration (dulia) is the honor given to saints. It's a form of deep respect, not worship.
- Hyperdulia is a special veneration given to Mary because of her unique role as the Mother of God, but it still falls short of worship.
Catholics believe that:3. Biblical and Historical Roots
- Saints are friends of God who are alive in heaven and can intercede (pray) for us.
- Asking a saint to pray for you is similar to asking a friend or family member to pray for you.
- Mary, as the mother of Jesus, holds a special place and is seen as a powerful intercessor.
4. No Divine Power Attributed
- Catholics point to passages like Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4, which depict the saints in heaven offering prayers to God.
- The practice of honoring saints dates back to the early Church, where martyrs were remembered and their intercession sought.
Summary
- Catholics do not believe that Mary or the saints have divine power on their own.
- All grace and miracles come from God; saints are simply channels through whom God may act.
So, in Catholic understanding:
- Praying to Mary or the saints is not idol worship because it's not worship at all.
- It's a request for intercession, not an act of adoration.
- Worship is reserved for God alone.
But the Roman Catholic views are still utterly, utterly wrong.KaiBear said:BearFan33 said:
I'm not saying what is right or wrong....just posted this about the differing views.
1. Protestant Denominations (e.g., Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Evangelical)
Most Protestants reject the practice of praying to saints or Mary. Their concerns include:
Sola Scriptura: They emphasize Scripture alone as the basis for doctrine and argue that there is no biblical command to pray to anyone but God.
Christ as Sole Mediator: Based on verses like 1 Timothy 2:5 ("For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"), they believe that going through saints undermines Christ's unique role.
Fear of Idolatry: Many Protestants see the veneration of saints and Mary as dangerously close to idolatry, even if Catholics distinguish between veneration and worship.
2. Eastern Orthodox Church
The Orthodox Church shares many similarities with Catholicism in this area:
They venerate Mary (Theotokos) and the saints and ask for their intercession.
Like Catholics, they make a clear distinction between worship (latreia) and veneration (douleia).
Icons and prayers to saints are common in Orthodox spirituality, but always with the understanding that God alone is worshipped.
3. Anglican/Episcopalian
Views within Anglicanism vary:
High Church Anglicans (Anglo-Catholics) may practice veneration of saints and prayers for intercession, similar to Catholics.
Low Church Anglicans tend to align more with Protestant views and may avoid such practices.
The Book of Common Prayer includes prayers that honor saints but generally avoids direct prayers to them.
4. Lutheran
Lutherans honor Mary as the Mother of God and respect the saints, but:
They do not pray to them.
Martin Luther retained some Marian doctrines (like the Virgin Birth) but rejected the invocation of saints.
Like other Protestants, they emphasize Christ as the sole mediator.
Solid, non judgmental information.
Well done.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But the Roman Catholic views are still utterly, utterly wrong.KaiBear said:BearFan33 said:
I'm not saying what is right or wrong....just posted this about the differing views.
1. Protestant Denominations (e.g., Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Evangelical)
Most Protestants reject the practice of praying to saints or Mary. Their concerns include:
Sola Scriptura: They emphasize Scripture alone as the basis for doctrine and argue that there is no biblical command to pray to anyone but God.
Christ as Sole Mediator: Based on verses like 1 Timothy 2:5 ("For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"), they believe that going through saints undermines Christ's unique role.
Fear of Idolatry: Many Protestants see the veneration of saints and Mary as dangerously close to idolatry, even if Catholics distinguish between veneration and worship.
2. Eastern Orthodox Church
The Orthodox Church shares many similarities with Catholicism in this area:
They venerate Mary (Theotokos) and the saints and ask for their intercession.
Like Catholics, they make a clear distinction between worship (latreia) and veneration (douleia).
Icons and prayers to saints are common in Orthodox spirituality, but always with the understanding that God alone is worshipped.
3. Anglican/Episcopalian
Views within Anglicanism vary:
High Church Anglicans (Anglo-Catholics) may practice veneration of saints and prayers for intercession, similar to Catholics.
Low Church Anglicans tend to align more with Protestant views and may avoid such practices.
The Book of Common Prayer includes prayers that honor saints but generally avoids direct prayers to them.
4. Lutheran
Lutherans honor Mary as the Mother of God and respect the saints, but:
They do not pray to them.
Martin Luther retained some Marian doctrines (like the Virgin Birth) but rejected the invocation of saints.
Like other Protestants, they emphasize Christ as the sole mediator.
Solid, non judgmental information.
Well done.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Can an honest person truly believe there is no act of adoration of Mary, when they bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns of her in church, hold numerous festivals in her honor throughout the year, have pictures and statues of her all over their house, and have prayers of her which call her "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", "our hope and refuge", and they "place their salvation in her hands"?? How is any of this not divinization of Mary?BearFan33 said:Copilot's thoughts.....FLBear5630 said:IdolatryBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.
The key to understanding why Catholics praying to Mary and the saints is not considered idol worship lies in the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholic theology.
1. Worship vs. Veneration2. Role of Saints and Mary
- Worship (latria) is due to God alone. It involves adoration and is reserved for the Holy TrinityFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.
- Veneration (dulia) is the honor given to saints. It's a form of deep respect, not worship.
- Hyperdulia is a special veneration given to Mary because of her unique role as the Mother of God, but it still falls short of worship.
Catholics believe that:3. Biblical and Historical Roots
- Saints are friends of God who are alive in heaven and can intercede (pray) for us.
- Asking a saint to pray for you is similar to asking a friend or family member to pray for you.
- Mary, as the mother of Jesus, holds a special place and is seen as a powerful intercessor.
4. No Divine Power Attributed
- Catholics point to passages like Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4, which depict the saints in heaven offering prayers to God.
- The practice of honoring saints dates back to the early Church, where martyrs were remembered and their intercession sought.
Summary
- Catholics do not believe that Mary or the saints have divine power on their own.
- All grace and miracles come from God; saints are simply channels through whom God may act.
So, in Catholic understanding:
- Praying to Mary or the saints is not idol worship because it's not worship at all.
- It's a request for intercession, not an act of adoration.
- Worship is reserved for God alone.
Can an honest person truly say this isn't worship and idolatry?
World's largest denomination- all the more reason.KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But the Roman Catholic views are still utterly, utterly wrong.KaiBear said:BearFan33 said:
I'm not saying what is right or wrong....just posted this about the differing views.
1. Protestant Denominations (e.g., Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Evangelical)
Most Protestants reject the practice of praying to saints or Mary. Their concerns include:
Sola Scriptura: They emphasize Scripture alone as the basis for doctrine and argue that there is no biblical command to pray to anyone but God.
Christ as Sole Mediator: Based on verses like 1 Timothy 2:5 ("For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"), they believe that going through saints undermines Christ's unique role.
Fear of Idolatry: Many Protestants see the veneration of saints and Mary as dangerously close to idolatry, even if Catholics distinguish between veneration and worship.
2. Eastern Orthodox Church
The Orthodox Church shares many similarities with Catholicism in this area:
They venerate Mary (Theotokos) and the saints and ask for their intercession.
Like Catholics, they make a clear distinction between worship (latreia) and veneration (douleia).
Icons and prayers to saints are common in Orthodox spirituality, but always with the understanding that God alone is worshipped.
3. Anglican/Episcopalian
Views within Anglicanism vary:
High Church Anglicans (Anglo-Catholics) may practice veneration of saints and prayers for intercession, similar to Catholics.
Low Church Anglicans tend to align more with Protestant views and may avoid such practices.
The Book of Common Prayer includes prayers that honor saints but generally avoids direct prayers to them.
4. Lutheran
Lutherans honor Mary as the Mother of God and respect the saints, but:
They do not pray to them.
Martin Luther retained some Marian doctrines (like the Virgin Birth) but rejected the invocation of saints.
Like other Protestants, they emphasize Christ as the sole mediator.
Solid, non judgmental information.
Well done.
LOL
Good grief my comment wasn't even directed at you. Yet you felt compelled to attack Catholics still again .
Seriously dude; get some counseling.
As this unending hatred / obsession with the world's largest Christian denomination isn't selling.
No, not just "some" people - all this is fully endorsed by their Magisterium, and thus defines the entire Roman Catholic Church. Catholics believing that the boss is "God" is of no credit to them - the demons believe the same (James 2:9).BearFan33 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Can an honest person truly believe there is no act of adoration of Mary, when they bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns of her in church, hold numerous festivals in her honor throughout the year, have pictures and statues of her all over their house, and have prayers of her which call her "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", "our hope and refuge", and they "place their salvation in her hands"?? How is any of this not divinization of Mary?BearFan33 said:Copilot's thoughts.....FLBear5630 said:IdolatryBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.
The key to understanding why Catholics praying to Mary and the saints is not considered idol worship lies in the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholic theology.
1. Worship vs. Veneration2. Role of Saints and Mary
- Worship (latria) is due to God alone. It involves adoration and is reserved for the Holy TrinityFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.
- Veneration (dulia) is the honor given to saints. It's a form of deep respect, not worship.
- Hyperdulia is a special veneration given to Mary because of her unique role as the Mother of God, but it still falls short of worship.
Catholics believe that:3. Biblical and Historical Roots
- Saints are friends of God who are alive in heaven and can intercede (pray) for us.
- Asking a saint to pray for you is similar to asking a friend or family member to pray for you.
- Mary, as the mother of Jesus, holds a special place and is seen as a powerful intercessor.
4. No Divine Power Attributed
- Catholics point to passages like Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4, which depict the saints in heaven offering prayers to God.
- The practice of honoring saints dates back to the early Church, where martyrs were remembered and their intercession sought.
Summary
- Catholics do not believe that Mary or the saints have divine power on their own.
- All grace and miracles come from God; saints are simply channels through whom God may act.
So, in Catholic understanding:
- Praying to Mary or the saints is not idol worship because it's not worship at all.
- It's a request for intercession, not an act of adoration.
- Worship is reserved for God alone.
Can an honest person truly say this isn't worship and idolatry?
Sounds like Some people go overboard
If you ask them who's boss I'm sure the sane Catholics would say "God"
Quote:
have prayers of her which call her "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", "our hope and refuge"
And Catholics can't understand how you go to Church without communion each week or believe they don't need confession. It is beyond me to why even go? You guys act like Bible Study is the same as celebrating the sacrament of communion. It is really unbelievable.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:No, not just "some" people - all this is fully endorsed by their Magisterium, and thus defines the entire Roman Catholic Church. Catholics believing that the boss is "God" is of no credit to them - the demons believe the same (James 2:9).BearFan33 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Can an honest person truly believe there is no act of adoration of Mary, when they bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns of her in church, hold numerous festivals in her honor throughout the year, have pictures and statues of her all over their house, and have prayers of her which call her "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", "our hope and refuge", and they "place their salvation in her hands"?? How is any of this not divinization of Mary?BearFan33 said:Copilot's thoughts.....FLBear5630 said:IdolatryBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.
The key to understanding why Catholics praying to Mary and the saints is not considered idol worship lies in the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholic theology.
1. Worship vs. Veneration2. Role of Saints and Mary
- Worship (latria) is due to God alone. It involves adoration and is reserved for the Holy TrinityFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.
- Veneration (dulia) is the honor given to saints. It's a form of deep respect, not worship.
- Hyperdulia is a special veneration given to Mary because of her unique role as the Mother of God, but it still falls short of worship.
Catholics believe that:3. Biblical and Historical Roots
- Saints are friends of God who are alive in heaven and can intercede (pray) for us.
- Asking a saint to pray for you is similar to asking a friend or family member to pray for you.
- Mary, as the mother of Jesus, holds a special place and is seen as a powerful intercessor.
4. No Divine Power Attributed
- Catholics point to passages like Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4, which depict the saints in heaven offering prayers to God.
- The practice of honoring saints dates back to the early Church, where martyrs were remembered and their intercession sought.
Summary
- Catholics do not believe that Mary or the saints have divine power on their own.
- All grace and miracles come from God; saints are simply channels through whom God may act.
So, in Catholic understanding:
- Praying to Mary or the saints is not idol worship because it's not worship at all.
- It's a request for intercession, not an act of adoration.
- Worship is reserved for God alone.
Can an honest person truly say this isn't worship and idolatry?
Sounds like Some people go overboard
If you ask them who's boss I'm sure the sane Catholics would say "God"
The Apostles weren't infallible (see Galatians 2). We know the Bible is the Word of God the same way we know other Church teachings are true, because Jesus promised his Spirit would guide the Church.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:You've failed to understand the point. The ONLY thing we know that came from Jesus mouth directly where he told certain people they would remember everything that he said and did (and because this is Jesus, we can safely assume it will be done infallibly) is in those words in John's gospel. No tradition, written or oral, that is traceable back to Jesus and his original apostles, exists where it contains the same promise from Jesus. If you have these other sources, then show us.DallasBear9902 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:The empirical, observed evidence that sola scriptura is based on is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That put a stamp on his authority as being from God. He in turn, put his stamp of authority on his disciples: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." *Therefore*, the word of the original apostles is the direct, infallible word of God. *And since* all the church has in its possession that is the word of the original apostles is in Scripture, then the only thing that can serve as the infallible rule of faith is Scripture.DallasBear9902 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Too bad no one ever said that.DallasBear9902 said:If that is unbelievable to you wait until you hear this one:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:The Roman Catholic position is correct, because official Roman Catholic sources say so?FLBear5630 said:Is that list attached to your Keys?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I don't know what question you have in mind, but the real question was this: given that the historical evidence shows that a majority of patristic writers did NOT view Peter as the "rock" of Matthew 16, then isn't it true that the view that Peter was the "rock" was NOT what the Catholic church "constantly" and "always" believed as the Roman Catholic Church claims?Coke Bear said:The lovely Marisa Tomei demonstrates it very well,BusyTarpDuster2017 said:No, it isn't an answer to my question. Good grief.Coke Bear said:That is a clear answer to your supposed question. If someone else doesn't think so, please let me know.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If you won't answer the question, don't you see you're only proving that I'm right?Coke Bear said:I believe 100% in the word of Jesus that Peter IS the rock that Christ established His Church, in light of your "evidence."BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Please FOCUS. I didn't ask what YOU think the primary reading shows, I asked whether you agree that the belief that Peter was the "rock" was NOT a constant belief of the early church, given the historical evidence I just provided?
1) Jesus literally said it. The prima facie reading proves that. I go with Jesus here.
2) I've provided 1st & 2nd century evidence from Clement, Ignatius, and Irenaeus that the Church in Rome had primacy and a list of the original bishops of Rome from Peter forward.
3) I will also listen to the magisterium which has proclaimed this for nearly 2000 years. It has been practiced and believed for this entire period.
Finally, I do reject what a 20th/21st century scholar has claimed, especially when I have not read the greater context his statement was made.
I'll trust Jesus. He said so.
Is there ONE Roman Catholic out there who will discuss this with me honestly? Please, just ONE??
Question for you, when did you stop betting your wife?
If ANY one (protestant or Catholic) feels that I did sufficiently answer the "question" with my beliefs, please let me know. I sincerely mean that.
Your question was phrased in the same vein as "when did you stop betting your wife?"
If anyone feels that your answer, which was telling me that YOU personally believe Peter was the "rock", is an actual answer to that question, then they can please let me know, too. And then I can add them to the clueless list.
By the way, you are so full of **** it is pathetic. You seem to get off on trying to undermine people's believes by throwing out cherrypicked infromation. Buy a Catechism it will explain every aspect of the Catholic faith. Here is a website in the Vatican. This is the Catholic Position which is correct, regardless of yoursadn Tammy Faye's thoughts
The Primacy of the Successor of Peter in the Mystery of the Church
I guarentee YOU have not found anything new.
Unbelievable.
Sola Scriptura is correct because people say it is.
That is what YOU said. You said Sola Scriptura is reasoning based on theoretical deduction. A theoretical assumption based on deduction. Not based on empirical evidence or observation.
In other words, that it is true because you say it is.
You really aren't good at understanding words, ideas and concepts. A proper Catholic education would have helped you in this regard.
This is not a "theoretical deduction". It's quite revealing that you would call Jesus' resurrection a "theory". If this is what results from a "proper Catholic education", then thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'll pass.
Beyond the form of what you are doing, you are also wrong on the substance. A common error throughout your posting is reading more into the words of Scripture or Catholic writers than what is actually said. To use a relevant example from you: Jesus said about the Holy Spirit: he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. You clearly read that to mean that the only revelation Jesus has made to his followers and the people of Earth that can be relied on by the Church is in the Bible. But it does not actually say that. All it says is that "[the Holy Spirit] will teach you all things" and "bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." Nowhere does it then say, "and only that which is recorded in the Bible which will be canonized over a period of over a thousand plus years" will be valid for Church teaching. You are reading ghosts into it.
We also know that the Gospel of John contradicts your premise when John tells us that "Jesus performed many other signs and teachings in the presence of his disciples+ that are not recorded in the book.' The apostles would have almost certainly gained many insights from such teachings and signs that would inform the apostles in their ministry building the Church. So right off the bat we know that revelation and many teachings from Jesus for his disciples exist outside of what is explicitly recorded in the Gospels to teach the rest of us. I'm taking a reasoned guess here (deductive logic), but my sense is that as a Rabbi, over the course of a three year ministry, Jesus would have had many private conversations where Jesus provided spiritual direction to various individuals. As a Rabbi, Jesus would have almost certainly taught during Shabbat and Seder observations. You seem to be suggesting that those private (or more personal) revelations and teachings from Jesus would carry no weight for the process of building the Church. We could go on and on....
+Just to get ahead of you: Having gotten to know your flawed reading style, your temptation is going to be to read John as saying that those teachings and signs occurred only in the presence of his disciples but the language does not exclude others from being present and we do not know exactly what is meant by "disciples" there.
So the point is, the words of the original apostles are the only words we know of that we can be sure of their infallibility. No one else's. Therefore, the only way we can be sure we are following the direction of Jesus infallibly is through the word of his disciples/apostles, i.e. Scripture. So any other tradition, revelation, inspiration must all be weighed against Scripture. If you want to follow any other tradition from another source, you don't have the same promise of infallibility from Jesus. Anyone says that they do, then they have to prove it.
So here's my challenge to you - can you tell me what the Roman Catholic Church has in her possession - any tradition, any writing, whatever - that they KNOW came from Jesus or his original apostles, that is NOT in Scripture?
St. John Chrysostom, like all Catholics, believed Peter was the Rock because of the faith of his confession. The two are not mutually exclusive.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
St. John Chrysostom (c. 347 AD), the highly influential and prolific Archbishop of Constantinople, named a Doctor of the Catholic Church (an honor only 37 people in church history have) on Peter's confession, not Peter himself, being the the "rock" of Matthew 16:Chrysostom, on Peter not being the only one having the "keys", but the apostle John having them as well:Quote:
"And I say unto thee, Thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church': that is, on the faith of his confession." (NPNF Vol. 10, p. 333)
"(Jesus) speaks from this time lowly things, on His way to His passion, that He may show His humanity. For He that has built His church upon Peter's confession, and has so fortified it, that ten thousand dangers and deaths are not to prevail over it…" (NPNF Vol. 10, p. 494)Quote:
"For the son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master's bosom, with much confidence…" (NPNF Vol. XIV, p. 1)
Christians can confess to Jesus directly, they don't need priests. There is nothing in Scripture that says communion needs to be held each week. Christian churches are free to decide when and how often. Jesus cares about our hearts, not what certain rites and rituals we carry out. If one has a heart of worship during Bible study, it is just as pleasing to God as performing communion. Even if a Christian lives way out nowhere, and he doesn't do communion in a church, but every time he eats his meal he remembers what Jesus did for him ("do this in remembrance of me") and he is thankful to Jesus with all his heart, then Jesus is just as pleased. God is not impressed with all the pomp and circumstance of rituals in expensive church buildings, he loves a thankful, humble heart that truly seeks him.FLBear5630 said:And Catholics can't understand how you go to Church without communion each week or believe they don't need confession. It is beyond me to why even go? You guys act like Bible Study is the same as celebrating the sacrament of communion. It is really unbelievable.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:No, not just "some" people - all this is fully endorsed by their Magisterium, and thus defines the entire Roman Catholic Church. Catholics believing that the boss is "God" is of no credit to them - the demons believe the same (James 2:9).BearFan33 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Can an honest person truly believe there is no act of adoration of Mary, when they bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns of her in church, hold numerous festivals in her honor throughout the year, have pictures and statues of her all over their house, and have prayers of her which call her "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", "our hope and refuge", and they "place their salvation in her hands"?? How is any of this not divinization of Mary?BearFan33 said:Copilot's thoughts.....FLBear5630 said:IdolatryBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??FLBear5630 said:The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.ShooterTX said:
Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.
Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592
https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA
https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6
https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8
But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?
The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.
If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.
My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.
So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.
The key to understanding why Catholics praying to Mary and the saints is not considered idol worship lies in the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholic theology.
1. Worship vs. Veneration2. Role of Saints and Mary
- Worship (latria) is due to God alone. It involves adoration and is reserved for the Holy TrinityFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.
- Veneration (dulia) is the honor given to saints. It's a form of deep respect, not worship.
- Hyperdulia is a special veneration given to Mary because of her unique role as the Mother of God, but it still falls short of worship.
Catholics believe that:3. Biblical and Historical Roots
- Saints are friends of God who are alive in heaven and can intercede (pray) for us.
- Asking a saint to pray for you is similar to asking a friend or family member to pray for you.
- Mary, as the mother of Jesus, holds a special place and is seen as a powerful intercessor.
4. No Divine Power Attributed
- Catholics point to passages like Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4, which depict the saints in heaven offering prayers to God.
- The practice of honoring saints dates back to the early Church, where martyrs were remembered and their intercession sought.
Summary
- Catholics do not believe that Mary or the saints have divine power on their own.
- All grace and miracles come from God; saints are simply channels through whom God may act.
So, in Catholic understanding:
- Praying to Mary or the saints is not idol worship because it's not worship at all.
- It's a request for intercession, not an act of adoration.
- Worship is reserved for God alone.
Can an honest person truly say this isn't worship and idolatry?
Sounds like Some people go overboard
If you ask them who's boss I'm sure the sane Catholics would say "God"
The apostles were the direct witnesses to Jesus, whose infallibility was proven by his death and resurrection. Jesus gave them infallible memory of everything Jesus said and did (John 14:26). Jesus gave no other person this authority other than his apostles that we know of. Therefore, any church teachings, even though they are claimed to be the result of being led by the Holy Spirit, must be weighed against Scripture, which is the only source we have that we know is the infallible word of God. If the teaching goes against Scripture, then it was not from the Holy Spirit.Sam LowryThe Roman Catholic position is correct, because official Roman Catholic sources say so? said:The Apostles weren't infallible (see Galatians 2). We know the Bible is the Word of God the same way we know other Church teachings are true, because Jesus promised his Spirit would guide the Church.Quote:You've failed to understand the point. The ONLY thing we know that came from Jesus mouth directly where he told certain people they would remember everything that he said and did (and because this is Jesus, we can safely assume it will be done infallibly) is in those words in John's gospel. No tradition, written or oral, that is traceable back to Jesus and his original apostles, exists where it contains the same promise from Jesus. If you have these other sources, then show us.Quote:Quote:The empirical, observed evidence that sola scriptura is based on is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That put a stamp on his authority as being from God. He in turn, put his stamp of authority on his disciples: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." *Therefore*, the word of the original apostles is the direct, infallible word of God. *And since* all the church has in its possession that is the word of the original apostles is in Scripture, then the only thing that can serve as the infallible rule of faith is Scripture.Quote:Quote:Too bad no one ever said that.Quote:If that is unbelievable to you wait until you hear this one:Quote:
Unbelievable.
Sola Scriptura is correct because people say it is.
That is what YOU said. You said Sola Scriptura is reasoning based on theoretical deduction. A theoretical assumption based on deduction. Not based on empirical evidence or observation.
In other words, that it is true because you say it is.
You really aren't good at understanding words, ideas and concepts. A proper Catholic education would have helped you in this regard.
This is not a "theoretical deduction". It's quite revealing that you would call Jesus' resurrection a "theory". If this is what results from a "proper Catholic education", then thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'll pass.
Beyond the form of what you are doing, you are also wrong on the substance. A common error throughout your posting is reading more into the words of Scripture or Catholic writers than what is actually said. To use a relevant example from you: Jesus said about the Holy Spirit: he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. You clearly read that to mean that the only revelation Jesus has made to his followers and the people of Earth that can be relied on by the Church is in the Bible. But it does not actually say that. All it says is that "[the Holy Spirit] will teach you all things" and "bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." Nowhere does it then say, "and only that which is recorded in the Bible which will be canonized over a period of over a thousand plus years" will be valid for Church teaching. You are reading ghosts into it.
We also know that the Gospel of John contradicts your premise when John tells us that "Jesus performed many other signs and teachings in the presence of his disciples+ that are not recorded in the book.' The apostles would have almost certainly gained many insights from such teachings and signs that would inform the apostles in their ministry building the Church. So right off the bat we know that revelation and many teachings from Jesus for his disciples exist outside of what is explicitly recorded in the Gospels to teach the rest of us. I'm taking a reasoned guess here (deductive logic), but my sense is that as a Rabbi, over the course of a three year ministry, Jesus would have had many private conversations where Jesus provided spiritual direction to various individuals. As a Rabbi, Jesus would have almost certainly taught during Shabbat and Seder observations. You seem to be suggesting that those private (or more personal) revelations and teachings from Jesus would carry no weight for the process of building the Church. We could go on and on....
+Just to get ahead of you: Having gotten to know your flawed reading style, your temptation is going to be to read John as saying that those teachings and signs occurred only in the presence of his disciples but the language does not exclude others from being present and we do not know exactly what is meant by "disciples" there.
So the point is, the words of the original apostles are the only words we know of that we can be sure of their infallibility. No one else's. Therefore, the only way we can be sure we are following the direction of Jesus infallibly is through the word of his disciples/apostles, i.e. Scripture. So any other tradition, revelation, inspiration must all be weighed against Scripture. If you want to follow any other tradition from another source, you don't have the same promise of infallibility from Jesus. Anyone says that they do, then they have to prove it.
So here's my challenge to you - can you tell me what the Roman Catholic Church has in her possession - any tradition, any writing, whatever - that they KNOW came from Jesus or his original apostles, that is NOT in Scripture?
