BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
- Jesus and his apostles never "used" the Septuagint. They used the canonical books within the Septuagint. Again, I don't know how it'll every get into your head, but the Septuagint contained BOTH canonical AND non-canonical books. Quoting the canonical books doesn't magically turn the non-canonical books into the canonical just because they were included in the volume. That'd be like the "foreword" of the Trump Bible written by Trump being considered part of Biblical canon because it was in that volume.
You call them non-canonical, but they are deuterocanonical. {Please state your evidence that Jesus and the disciples did NOT use the Septuagint despite the fact that:
1: During the time of Jesus, Green was the widely spoken language across the Mediterranean region. The Greek translation, Septuagint, was widely commonly used among Greek-speaking Jews.
2: NT Quotes most of the NT quotes more closely align to the Septuagint than the Hebrew Masoretic Text. Obviously suggesting that they were familiar with the Septuagint.
3: Hellenistic Jewish Influence: Jewish communities outside of Palestine (Alexandria, Egypt) primarily used the Septuagint. This influence extended back to Israel.
4: ACTS - The early Church frequently encountered Greek-speaking Jews (Acts 6:1)
5: Early Church Writings Many Church Fathers reference the Septuagint in their writings.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
- Yes, the Jewish people closed their canon. They "laid up" in the Temple the books that they deemed canonical (their Tanakh), and they correspond exactly to the books of the Old Testament. NONE of the apocryphal books were laid up in the Temple. The historian Josephus names these books that were "laid up", and the number of those books was closed. Philo of Alexandria agrees. So does the Talmud. So did Pseudoepigraphical writings like 2 Esdras (4 Ezra) written in 100 AD. Aquila who translated the Hebrew scriptures into Greek in 128 AD agrees.
Thanks for proving my point! The JEWISH canon was NOT settled before Jesus died. It was closed several generations after. The Deuterocanon, from which the Jews get Hanukkah, and referenced in John 10, is still celebrated today by all Jews around the world.
Like I said, the JEWISH canon was closed. I go with what Jesus, disciples, and the early Church used, which was the Septuagint.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Origen and Epiphanius said that the Jews rejected the apocrypha.
Yes, by those Jews near him, but he NEVER listed his Canon. He recognized the value of the DT and cited them in his work.
Epiphanius also never listed a canon. He NEVER rejected the DT. He acknowledges the DT and recognizes its utility.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
So did Jerome. So did the majority of all church fathers, theologians, and scholars from the time of Jerome up until the 1500's. The earliest known bible canons (Melito's canon, Bryennios' list) did not contain the apocrypha. Even the apocryphal book of 1 Maccabees said that there was no prophet in all of Israel, including him. The grandson of the author of Ecclesiasticus said the Hebrew canon was complete before he wrote. And if all of that isn't good enough for you, JESUS himself said he came to fulfill all of the Law, Prophets, and Writings - nothing about the apocrypha. If Jesus considered the canon closed, then so should you.
In what book say that Jesus says that the canon was closed? Also, Ecclesiasticus NEVER explicitly says that canon was closed. The canon during this time was still fluid.
Remember, Jerome may have not accepted the Deuterocanon, but he nevertheless translated ALL of the 46 books into Latin giving us our current Latin Vulgate in obedience to the Church. The Church accepted the DT as CANON.
It was the Catholic Church (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit) that determined the canon. It took centuries before the book of James was accepted as canonical. It was the Catholic Church that determined that James was canonical. It wasn't fully accepted as canonical until the Council of Hippo (393 AD) and Council of Carthage (429 AD). That's a LONG time.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
- The creation account does not have historical errors. That's a really dumb argument.
Was the mankind literally created on the 6th day? Most scientist agree that light didn't even exist until 380,00 YEARS after the Big Bang. They also state that the Earth didn't form until 4.6 billon years ago. Scientists also state that the earth is 13.8 billion years old. Man (according to scientist) came onto the earth 200,000 years ago. How can this be if man was created on the 6th day?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
- Jesus never used any themes from the apocrypha. Rather, the apocrypha used themes from the Hebrew canon, and Jesus used themes from that same Hebrew canon. That doesn't mean Jesus was referring to the apocrpha. Another really bad argument.
Really Jesus emphasized wisdom and righteousness in his parables. This is scene in Wisdom and Sirach.
Sirach and Tobit emphasis justice for the poor and the acts of mercy. Jesus' compassion, serving others, and social justice are themes that Jesus echoed.
Faithfulness and Divine Providence are shown in Tobit and Judith. God's providence and faithfulness are paralleled in Jesus' teachings.
Martyrdom and Suffering in 2 Maccabees are certain shown in Christ's passion.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
- Doesn't it scare you that you are adding books that JESUS didn't consider as canon?
Given the fact that Pope Damasus I, at the Council of Rome in 382, endorsed the full 73-book canon of the Bible, when do you argue that Catholics were "adding books" to the Bible? Were the Deuterocanonical books in the first addition of the KJV?
