Doc Holliday said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Doc Holliday said:
"Depending on Jesus" is not passive; it is itself a spiritual act that involves our will and active cooperation with grace. I cannot agree with the idea that belief alone makes us righteous without any effort or participation on our parts
When someone "comes to Jesus with empty hands and puts full reliance on Him," that is an act of cooperation and work, it must take place, because without it, a person is effectively abandoning the faith. Salvation is not earned, but it is received and lived through our active engagement with God's grace.
You cannot claim that sola fide is anything other than a "said faith," a one-time mental assent, because by definition it divorces faith from obedience, repentance, and ongoing participation in Christ. That is exactly why ideas like Once Saved Always Saved exist, because if faith is reduced to mere words or belief without action, then nothing we do, including turning from sin or cooperating with God, can affect our salvation. The moment you admit that believers must actively pray, repent, avoid sin, or cooperate with grace to remain in Christ, you are acknowledging that true faith is never "alone" or merely said, it is cooperative and requires our willpower/work.
Faith itself is "a spiritual act that involves our will and active cooperation with grace". Depending on Jesus is having faith in Jesus. It is not a "work", like performing water baptism or taking the Eucharist. Faith happens in the heart.
If you can't agree that this "belief", i.e. faith, alone makes us righteous, then you don't understand the gospel. You're trying to tie your ability and performance to salvation, i.e. your "obedience" to salvation, rather than on Jesus' completed work. To which I ask and you have yet to answer: how much obedience, then, is required? What is the cutoff point? It can't be "perfectly" because then no one would be saved, right? You're just trading one set of law-keeping (the Torah) with another (Jesus' commandments) as the means to salvation.
If you think sola fide is merely "said faith" then you don't understand sola fide, you're only creating a straw man, making it what you want it to be so you can easily defeat it. Sola fide is referring to true faith being the only thing that saves, apart from works. That is straight from scripture. Denying sola fide is denying the gospel.
I still would like answers to these questions, in addition to the question above: 1) If someone truly believes in Jesus, but dies before water baptism or the Eucharist, are they saved? If not, then doesn't that falsify Jesus when he says that whosoever believes will be saved? 2) if someone hears the gospel, believes, and puts their trust in Jesus alone for their salvation - are you saying this doesn't qualify as "faith" until he performs an act of obedience, like water baptism or the Eucharist?
The Protestant line that truly saving faith leads to works has made me doubt the nature of my own faith. If you're not producing good works, or you're engaged in habitual sin, then you start to doubt whether your faith is legitimate or not. In your sola fide view, what are the good works that accompany faith? To what degree will we see them in a person who has true faith vs a false faith? How much disobedience to Christ shows we have a false faith?
So then, how does Orthodoxy make you feel about your faith, when producing good works is a requirement for salvation, and you're not producing good works or are in habitual sin? Is that any better than what the Protestant line does for you? Your sentiment doesn't really make sense here.
I think all true believers doubt their faith at some point due to sin, even a degree of habitual sin. Because they care. They wouldn't be true believers if they didn't. I think what separates true believers from not is conviction and repentance. True believers always repent, and fortunately, Jesus always forgives. "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1-2)
In the view of sola fide, works are not what saves, therefore it does not deal with the question on what works accompany faith, or to what degree we see them in someone with true faith vs. false faith. The truth of sola fide does not depend on these questions. You continually attribute to sola fide things which aren't attributable, and then reject sola fide for that reason. Your rejection of sola fide is on suspect grounds. It's based on a straw man.
Scripture tells us the fruits of true faith: belief, repentance, obedience, love, forgiveness, patience, kindness, etc. But the key here is that works vary among believers, some having more or less, even compared to NON-believers. So there is no "cutoff point". Non believers do these good works too. How much fruit in the form of works that believers will produce is going to be different depending on the maturity level of the believer. If works are a determinant of salvation, then you HAVE to establish a cutoff point. This again, is making God pin salvation on purely arbitrary grounds - if he can save someone at 50% works, why not 49.99%? Otherwise, you're saying that perfection is required, which is impossible, and then no one will be saved. You're simply returning then, to the old form of salvation, which is perfect Law keeping.
True faith vs. false faith is in the heart and it's presence is determined by God, and that is what determines our salvation, not the level of our works, which can vary from believer to believer. On the other hand, since Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy say that works are required for salvation, then they are the ones who MUST establish cutoff points - how much works is required? Did I get an answer from you on these?
