BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

James Fishback Wishlist, according to Grok

-Eliminate homestead property taxes for Florida residents

-Ban private equity, foreign buyers, and Airbnb speculators from buying single-family homes; force divestment of existing holdings

-$10,000 zero-interest down-payment assistance for qualifying young married couples

-Ban new AI/data centers statewide

-Heavily penalize or end H-1B visa use that displaces Florida workers

-Shut down all remaining abortion clinics and replace them with crisis pregnancy centers

-Raise teacher pay 25% and expand school choice/homeschool support

-Repeal red-flag laws, waiting periods, and age restrictions on rifles; protect other gun rights

-Strengthen law enforcement pay/pensions and remove soft-on-crime prosecutors

-Crack down hard on teen mobs/riots and clear homeless people from the streets into treatment

-Invest $1 billion in drainage infrastructure and reform insurance to lower premiums

-Offer a $1 billion prize to cure citrus greening
Add tourism surcharges and taxes on out-of-state/luxury buyers to fund priorities

-Appoint a Small Business Commissioner and cut startup red tape

-End contracts with surveillance firms (Flock, Palantir) and strongly defend free speech

---

I'm annoyed we dont have a James Fishback in Texas...

If you are a conservative, Florida really is the best state in the country and like you said Desantis, despite his wall kissing, is probably the best governor in the country.

Unlike Abbott I dont see him attending the WEF and dressing up as an Indian and telling the H1bs they are welcome to come to Florida and take jobs from their residents.

The_barBEARian said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

James Fishback Wishlist, according to Grok

-Eliminate homestead property taxes for Florida residents

-Ban private equity, foreign buyers, and Airbnb speculators from buying single-family homes; force divestment of existing holdings

-$10,000 zero-interest down-payment assistance for qualifying young married couples

-Ban new AI/data centers statewide

-Heavily penalize or end H-1B visa use that displaces Florida workers

-Shut down all remaining abortion clinics and replace them with crisis pregnancy centers

-Raise teacher pay 25% and expand school choice/homeschool support

-Repeal red-flag laws, waiting periods, and age restrictions on rifles; protect other gun rights

-Strengthen law enforcement pay/pensions and remove soft-on-crime prosecutors

-Crack down hard on teen mobs/riots and clear homeless people from the streets into treatment

-Invest $1 billion in drainage infrastructure and reform insurance to lower premiums

-Offer a $1 billion prize to cure citrus greening
Add tourism surcharges and taxes on out-of-state/luxury buyers to fund priorities

-Appoint a Small Business Commissioner and cut startup red tape

-End contracts with surveillance firms (Flock, Palantir) and strongly defend free speech

---

I'm annoyed we dont have a James Fishback in Texas...

If you are a conservative, Florida really is the best state in the country and like you said Desantis, despite his wall kissing, is probably the best governor in the country.

Unlike Abbott I dont see him attending the WEF and dressing up as an Indian and telling the H1bs they are welcome to come to Florida and take jobs from their residents.

---

Abbott needs to go, the older GOP politicians are sucking the life out of the party.

I lived in DFW for some time after graduation, my friends in Dallas tell me that it's like little-India now. Abbott closed the southern border only to willingly open the gates for an H1-B invasion.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

James Fishback Wishlist, according to Grok

-Eliminate homestead property taxes for Florida residents

-Ban private equity, foreign buyers, and Airbnb speculators from buying single-family homes; force divestment of existing holdings

-$10,000 zero-interest down-payment assistance for qualifying young married couples

-Ban new AI/data centers statewide

-Heavily penalize or end H-1B visa use that displaces Florida workers

-Shut down all remaining abortion clinics and replace them with crisis pregnancy centers

-Raise teacher pay 25% and expand school choice/homeschool support

-Repeal red-flag laws, waiting periods, and age restrictions on rifles; protect other gun rights

-Strengthen law enforcement pay/pensions and remove soft-on-crime prosecutors

-Crack down hard on teen mobs/riots and clear homeless people from the streets into treatment

-Invest $1 billion in drainage infrastructure and reform insurance to lower premiums

-Offer a $1 billion prize to cure citrus greening
Add tourism surcharges and taxes on out-of-state/luxury buyers to fund priorities

-Appoint a Small Business Commissioner and cut startup red tape

-End contracts with surveillance firms (Flock, Palantir) and strongly defend free speech

---

I'm annoyed we dont have a James Fishback in Texas...

If you are a conservative, Florida really is the best state in the country and like you said Desantis, despite his wall kissing, is probably the best governor in the country.

Unlike Abbott I dont see him attending the WEF and dressing up as an Indian and telling the H1bs they are welcome to come to Florida and take jobs from their residents.

---

Abbott needs to go, the older GOP politicians are sucking the life out of the party.

I lived in DFW for some time after graduation, my friends in Dallas tell me that it's like little-India now. Abbott closed the southern border only to willingly open the gates for an H1-B invasion.

---

He never really closed the border... it was just bread and circus for the ignorant masses. The second he received pushback from the Biden admin he completely folded and did everything they asked.

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

---

YW.

And yes, I believe Paul says exactly that in Romans. God still has a plan for the Jews' salvation.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

---

He also seems to believe jews are superior to everyone else because he obsessively, vigorously objects to and attacks anyone bringing attention to jewish crime or jewish criminals... he doesnt bring this rabid energy in other threads commenting on black or indian criminals and scammers.

Its a slavish devotion to jewish supremacy that is only found with his bizzare brand of evangelicalism.

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

---

YW.

And yes, I believe Paul says exactly that in Romans. God still has a plan for the Jews' salvation.

---

Why does what Paul say matter?

Is he the Son of God too? Or just a man?

Shouldnt he just stick to documenting what Jesus said and keep his personal commentary to himself?

The_barBEARian said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

---

He also seems to believe jews are superior to everyone else because he obsessively, vigorously objects to and attacks anyone bringing attention to jewish crime or jewish criminals... he doesnt bring this rabid energy in other threads commenting on black or indian criminals and scammers.

Its a slavish devotion to jewish supremacy that is only found with his bizzare brand of evangelicalism.

---

"Everyone needs Christ for salvation" is a strange definition of "Jewish supremacy." I don't believe Jews are superior to anyone else. In fact, I've repeatedly stated that Jews, like everyone else, need Christ for salvation.

What you're really mad about is that I refuse to turn individual wrongdoing into ethnic guilt, as you do. If a Jew commits a crime, you want the entire Jewish race on trial. I prefer individual responsibility.

The fact that you interpret basic Christian teaching about Israel as "slavish devotion" says far more about your obsessions than mine.

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

---

YW.

And yes, I believe Paul says exactly that in Romans. God still has a plan for the Jews' salvation.

---

Why does what Paul say matter?

Is he the Son of God too? Or just a man?

Shouldnt he just stick to documenting what Jesus said and keep his personal commentary to himself?

---

Careful, now. You are treading on thin ice with your Orthodox/Catholic buddies on this thread, and risk not getting your standard blue star from bigbear/reality.

Why does what Paul say matter? Because Jesus chose Paul as an apostle and commissioned him to teach in His name.

If your position is that Paul's teachings can simply be discarded as "personal commentary," then you're not arguing with me anymore. You're arguing with the New Testament itself.

Luke records Christ personally appearing to Paul on the Damascus road. Paul repeatedly identifies himself as "an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God." Peter refers to Paul's writings alongside the other Scriptures. The early Church received his epistles as authoritative.

But we all know the real issue isn't whether Paul was an apostle. The real issue is that Paul explicitly condemns the attitude you're trying to justify:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

In short, you're raising this objection only because you dislike what Paul says in Romans 9-11. If Paul had written that Gentiles should despise Jews and boast over them, we all know you'd be quoting Paul.

Mothra said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

---

He also seems to believe jews are superior to everyone else because he obsessively, vigorously objects to and attacks anyone bringing attention to jewish crime or jewish criminals... he doesnt bring this rabid energy in other threads commenting on black or indian criminals and scammers.

Its a slavish devotion to jewish supremacy that is only found with his bizzare brand of evangelicalism.

---

"Everyone needs Christ for salvation" is a strange definition of "Jewish supremacy." I don't believe Jews are superior to anyone else. In fact, I've repeatedly stated that Jews, like everyone else, need Christ for salvation.

What you're really mad about is that I refuse to turn individual wrongdoing into ethnic guilt, as you do. If a Jew commits a crime, you want the entire Jewish race on trial. I prefer individual responsibility.

The fact that you interpret basic Christian teaching about Israel as "slavish devotion" says far more about your obsessions than mine.

---

So what is it that you are doing when you call me a nazi? The nazis havent existed for 80 years but because I share their ethnicity you say I am guilty for their actions.

If you simply objected to my criticism of jews and judaism you would stick to calling me an "antisemite" or "jew hater"

Mothra said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

---

YW.

And yes, I believe Paul says exactly that in Romans. God still has a plan for the Jews' salvation.

---

Why does what Paul say matter?

Is he the Son of God too? Or just a man?

Shouldnt he just stick to documenting what Jesus said and keep his personal commentary to himself?

---

Careful, now. You are treading on thin ice with your Orthodox/Catholic buddies on this thread, and risk not getting your standard blue star from bigbear/reality.

Why does what Paul say matter? Because Jesus chose Paul as an apostle and commissioned him to teach in His name.

If your position is that Paul's teachings can simply be discarded as "personal commentary," then you're not arguing with me anymore. You're arguing with the New Testament itself.

Luke records Christ personally appearing to Paul on the Damascus road. Paul repeatedly identifies himself as "an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God." Peter refers to Paul's writings alongside the other Scriptures. The early Church received his epistles as authoritative.

But we all know the real issue isn't whether Paul was an apostle. The real issue is that Paul explicitly condemns the attitude you're trying to justify:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

In short, you're raising this objection only because you dislike what Paul says in Romans 9-11. If Paul had written that Gentiles should despise Jews and boast over them, we all know you'd be quoting Paul.

---

I'm an atheist. So why would I be boasting about it? This is your insane, fanatical issue for why you feel jews are immune from criticism. Not mine.

For the record, yes I like Bigbear and Reality despite not actually knowing them. I'm sure they disagree with a lot of things I post and that is completely fine! Unlike you they are respectful about it.

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

---

He also seems to believe jews are superior to everyone else because he obsessively, vigorously objects to and attacks anyone bringing attention to jewish crime or jewish criminals... he doesnt bring this rabid energy in other threads commenting on black or indian criminals and scammers.

Its a slavish devotion to jewish supremacy that is only found with his bizzare brand of evangelicalism.

---

"Everyone needs Christ for salvation" is a strange definition of "Jewish supremacy." I don't believe Jews are superior to anyone else. In fact, I've repeatedly stated that Jews, like everyone else, need Christ for salvation.

What you're really mad about is that I refuse to turn individual wrongdoing into ethnic guilt, as you do. If a Jew commits a crime, you want the entire Jewish race on trial. I prefer individual responsibility.

The fact that you interpret basic Christian teaching about Israel as "slavish devotion" says far more about your obsessions than mine.

---

So what is it that you are doing when you call me a nazi? The nazis havent existed for 80 years but because I share their ethnicity you say I am guilty for their actions.

If you simply objected to my criticism of jews and judaism you would stick to calling me an "antisemite" or "jew hater"

---

I've called you a neo-Nazi because you resemble a neo-Nazi in your belief system. I mean, you possess each of the material characteristics:

• White Supremacy: You've repeatedly express your view that the white race is superior to all other racial and ethnic groups.
• Antisemitism: You harbor a deep hatred for Jewish people and view Jewish communities as their primary enemy.
• Holocaust Denial: You downplay the mass murder of millions of Jewish people and others by Nazi Germany during World War II, and claim the numbers are incorrect.
• Hatred of Minorities: You are openly hostile to minority groups.
• Admiration of Hitler: You revere Adolf Hitler as a leader, describing him as a great man.

Do you dispute any of this? Do you truly dispute these aren't neo-Nazi beliefs?

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

---

YW.

And yes, I believe Paul says exactly that in Romans. God still has a plan for the Jews' salvation.

---

Why does what Paul say matter?

Is he the Son of God too? Or just a man?

Shouldnt he just stick to documenting what Jesus said and keep his personal commentary to himself?

---

Careful, now. You are treading on thin ice with your Orthodox/Catholic buddies on this thread, and risk not getting your standard blue star from bigbear/reality.

Why does what Paul say matter? Because Jesus chose Paul as an apostle and commissioned him to teach in His name.

If your position is that Paul's teachings can simply be discarded as "personal commentary," then you're not arguing with me anymore. You're arguing with the New Testament itself.

Luke records Christ personally appearing to Paul on the Damascus road. Paul repeatedly identifies himself as "an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God." Peter refers to Paul's writings alongside the other Scriptures. The early Church received his epistles as authoritative.

But we all know the real issue isn't whether Paul was an apostle. The real issue is that Paul explicitly condemns the attitude you're trying to justify:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

In short, you're raising this objection only because you dislike what Paul says in Romans 9-11. If Paul had written that Gentiles should despise Jews and boast over them, we all know you'd be quoting Paul.

---

I'm an atheist. So why would I be boasting about it? This is your insane, fanatical issue for why you feel jews are immune from criticism. Not mine.

For the record, yes I like Bigbear and Reality despite not actually knowing them. I'm sure they disagree with a lot of things I post and that is completely fine! Unlike you they are respectful about it.

---

Because you use scripture when it supports your positions. You have a long history of this on these boards.

As for bigbear and reality, it's unfortunate they are not more discerning, and willing to call out hateful conduct when they see it. There is nothing to respect about your views. They are loathsome and the antithesis of the Christian faith.

Mothra said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

---

"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

---

And:

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

---

So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

---

He also seems to believe jews are superior to everyone else because he obsessively, vigorously objects to and attacks anyone bringing attention to jewish crime or jewish criminals... he doesnt bring this rabid energy in other threads commenting on black or indian criminals and scammers.

Its a slavish devotion to jewish supremacy that is only found with his bizzare brand of evangelicalism.

---

"Everyone needs Christ for salvation" is a strange definition of "Jewish supremacy." I don't believe Jews are superior to anyone else. In fact, I've repeatedly stated that Jews, like everyone else, need Christ for salvation.

What you're really mad about is that I refuse to turn individual wrongdoing into ethnic guilt, as you do. If a Jew commits a crime, you want the entire Jewish race on trial. I prefer individual responsibility.

The fact that you interpret basic Christian teaching about Israel as "slavish devotion" says far more about your obsessions than mine.

---

So what is it that you are doing when you call me a nazi? The nazis havent existed for 80 years but because I share their ethnicity you say I am guilty for their actions.

If you simply objected to my criticism of jews and judaism you would stick to calling me an "antisemite" or "jew hater"

---

I've called you a neo-Nazi because you resemble a neo-Nazi in your belief system. I mean, you possess each of the material characteristics:

• White Supremacy: You've repeatedly express your view that the white race is superior to all other racial and ethnic groups.
• Antisemitism: You harbor a deep hatred for Jewish people and view Jewish communities as their primary enemy.
• Holocaust Denial: You downplay the mass murder of millions of Jewish people and others by Nazi Germany during World War II, and claim the numbers are incorrect.
• Hatred of Minorities: You are openly hostile to minority groups.
• Admiration of Hitler: You revere Adolf Hitler as a leader, describing him as a great man.

Do you dispute any of this? Do you truly dispute these aren't neo-Nazi beliefs?

---

I'm not going to play your stupid games.

You are a hypocrite and a liar and anyone with half a brain can see it.

You do believe in collective guilt, as long as they are white.

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and speaking of kid diddling, what are your thoughts on this Islamic teaching:

"A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

---

As for my thoughts on Islam? It is a scourge, both demonic and evil, and it is the greatest threat to freedom that exists in the world today. It's all the more reason people should be very concerned with the current crop of "America Firsters" and their cozying up with this evil ideology (see bowtie).

Not sure what that has to do with the present discussion of Fishback being a proven teen diddler.

---

It has nothing to do with Fishback.

It actually has nothing to do with Islam, either.

It's actually the teaching from your favorite country and its favorite religion, the Mishnah Niddah 5:4:1-2: "A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse and if a yavam had intercourse with her, he acquires her thereby."

Disgusting, isn't it? Now I'm no defender of Islam or Judaism as you well know. But that fact that you didn't recognize its source correctly says quite a bit about your inability to discuss these matters rationally.

And it is things like that which led God to tell the Jews:

"Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
"I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments."

Amos 5:18-23

---

Looks like we need to discuss the facts again, because you once again miss the mark:

First, let's start with the obvious: you falsely presented the quote in your previous post as an "Islamic teaching" and then attempted to ridicule me for not recognizing it as a passage from the Mishnah?

What a bizarre argument.

You intentionally misidentified the source, I accepted your representation of the source, and then you turned around and treated your own misrepresentation as evidence that I'm irrational. If anything, it demonstrates that I assumed you were arguing in good faith - something you appear incapable of.

And no, I don't find it remotely embarrassing that I couldn't identify a random line from Mishnah Niddah 5:4. Most Christians couldn't. Most pastors couldn't. Most seminary graduates couldn't. Acting as though a Christian must immediately recognize an isolated quotation from an ancient rabbinic legal text or be disqualified from discussing the issue is ridiculous. But that describes your argumentative style in a nutshell. You're an intellectually dishonest poster, and always have been.

More importantly, you are attacking a position I do not hold. I am not defending Judaism, and never have. As previously stated, I do not believe Judaism saves. I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. What I am defending is the attitude Scripture commands Christians to have toward the Jewish people.

Paul says:

Quote:

---

"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

---

Quote:

---

"Be not high-minded, but fear." (Romans 11:20)

---

Quote:

---

"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

---

Quote:

---

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28)

---

Notice the contrast.

Your instinct when discussing Jews is to reach for the most inflammatory quotation you can find because you loathe them. Paul's instinct, by contrast, was sorrow for their unbelief, prayer for their salvation, and a warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant toward them.

The irony is that you quoted Amos as though it supports your attitude. It doesn't. God's judgment on Israel is not a license for Gentiles to despise Israel. Romans 11 was written precisely to rebuke that kind of Gentile arrogance.

So no, I am not defending Judaism, and never have. I am defending the teaching of Romans 9-11 against the anti-Jewish contempt that Paul explicitly condemns.

I'll take Paul's attitude over yours. You unbiblical and hateful position disgusts me. It's made all the worse because it comes from a person who claims to be a Christian, but demonstrates an attitude that is anything but.

P.S. You have an uncanny ability to ignore portions of the post that refute your bull ***** Is it cowardice? Or am I going to get a response to the questions posed in my last post re: Fishback?

---

Mothra, can you please elaborate on your position regarding salvation? I don't think I understand you're saying.

You just said there is no salvation without Jesus. But you have also said that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains intact. What do you mean by that?

Do you believe Jews receive eternal life? Despite denying Christ as the Messiah. Define what you mean by "Jew" as well. Ethnic, religious, or both.

---

Yes, happy to.

I believe Scripture is clear that there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and, yes, Jews. These groups are all in the same boat. If you are a practicing Jew who rejects Christ, then you are destined for hell just like any other unbeliever. Christ could not have made that position more clear than He did in John 3:16-18.

At the same time, what we know from Paul's writings is that the Abrahamic covenant remains in place.

The mistake many people make is assuming those two propositions are contradictory. Paul didn't think they were. In Romans 9-11 he simultaneously affirms Israel's present unbelief and God's continuing covenantal purposes for Israel.

Paul asks:

Quote:

---

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1)

---

He then goes on to say:

Quote:

---

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

---

In other words, Israel's rejection of Christ does not mean God has abandoned His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So when I say the covenant remains intact, I am not saying Jews are saved apart from Christ. I am saying God is not finished with Israel. Paul's position was not, "The Jews are fine without Jesus." Nor was it, "God has discarded the Jews and transferred every promise made to them."

Instead, His position was that Israel is presently in unbelief, needs Christ, must hear the gospel, and yet remains a people with whom God still has covenantal purposes.

That is why Paul speaks with sorrow rather than contempt:

Quote:

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"I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." (Romans 9:2)

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And:

Quote:

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"My heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1)

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Notice what Paul does not say. He does not mock them. He does not despise them. He does not encourage Gentiles to boast over them. In fact, he explicitly warns against that attitude:

Quote:

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"Boast not against the branches." (Romans 11:18)

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So my position is simple:

• No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ.
• Religious Jews who reject Christ are lost just like any other unbeliever.
• God has not cast away Israel, and His covenant promises have not failed.
• Christians should therefore preach the gospel to Jews, pray for their salvation, and avoid the arrogant anti-Jewish attitude that Paul repeatedly condemns in Romans 11.

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So you believe, in a nutshell, someday the Jews will join the Christians and welcome Jesus as their Messiah?

If so, that's a reasonable take. Thanks for clarifying.

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He also seems to believe jews are superior to everyone else because he obsessively, vigorously objects to and attacks anyone bringing attention to jewish crime or jewish criminals... he doesnt bring this rabid energy in other threads commenting on black or indian criminals and scammers.

Its a slavish devotion to jewish supremacy that is only found with his bizzare brand of evangelicalism.

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"Everyone needs Christ for salvation" is a strange definition of "Jewish supremacy." I don't believe Jews are superior to anyone else. In fact, I've repeatedly stated that Jews, like everyone else, need Christ for salvation.

What you're really mad about is that I refuse to turn individual wrongdoing into ethnic guilt, as you do. If a Jew commits a crime, you want the entire Jewish race on trial. I prefer individual responsibility.

The fact that you interpret basic Christian teaching about Israel as "slavish devotion" says far more about your obsessions than mine.

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So what is it that you are doing when you call me a nazi? The nazis havent existed for 80 years but because I share their ethnicity you say I am guilty for their actions.

If you simply objected to my criticism of jews and judaism you would stick to calling me an "antisemite" or "jew hater"

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I've called you a neo-Nazi because you resemble a neo-Nazi in your belief system. I mean, you possess each of the material characteristics:

• White Supremacy: You've repeatedly express your view that the white race is superior to all other racial and ethnic groups.
• Antisemitism: You harbor a deep hatred for Jewish people and view Jewish communities as their primary enemy.
• Holocaust Denial: You downplay the mass murder of millions of Jewish people and others by Nazi Germany during World War II, and claim the numbers are incorrect.
• Hatred of Minorities: You are openly hostile to minority groups.
• Admiration of Hitler: You revere Adolf Hitler as a leader, describing him as a great man.

Do you dispute any of this? Do you truly dispute these aren't neo-Nazi beliefs?

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I'm not going to play your stupid games.

You are a hypocrite and a liar and anyone with half a brain can see it.

You do believe in collective guilt, as long as they are white.

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Huh. Given how open you are about your racism, I never would have figured you for a coward.

But I guess you just don't want to go on record admitting I am right. Regardless, we both know two things: 1) all of the above views are neo-Nazi beliefs; and 2) you adhere to them all.

As for collective white guilt, feel free to specifically describe my beliefs proving as such.

I'll hang up and listen.

James Fishback is winning every college campus precinct VoteHub has examined tonight.

— Garrett Herrin (@GarrettHerrin) August 19, 2026

boognish_bear said:

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James Fishback is winning every college campus precinct VoteHub has examined tonight.

— Garrett Herrin (@GarrettHerrin) August 19, 2026

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Smart young men on the right are the future of this country, and they're all America Firsters. Just give us 10 years

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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boognish_bear said:

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James Fishback is winning every college campus precinct VoteHub has examined tonight.

— Garrett Herrin (@GarrettHerrin) August 19, 2026

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Smart young men on the right are the future of this country, and they're all America Firsters. Just give us 10 years

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Don't see it ever happening. There's just not enough white populists and you'll split the vote with white conservatives. You won't attract nearly enough minorities to ever win a general.

But I'm sure it's a nice pipe dream.

Nick Fuentes GOES OFF on Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson for pinning Charlie Kirk’s аѕѕаѕѕіոаtіоո on Israel

“The right-wing can never forgive Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson—The left lives to fight and k*ӏӏ another day because of what YOU PEOPLE did!” pic.twitter.com/fzd6XJeLjb

— 𝐆𝐫𝐢𝐦𝐚𝐥𝐝𝐮𝐬 (@ImperiumFirst) August 18, 2026

Mothra said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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boognish_bear said:

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James Fishback is winning every college campus precinct VoteHub has examined tonight.

— Garrett Herrin (@GarrettHerrin) August 19, 2026

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Smart young men on the right are the future of this country, and they're all America Firsters. Just give us 10 years

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Don't see it ever happening. There's just not enough white populists and you'll split the vote with white conservatives. You won't attract nearly enough minorities to ever win a general.

But I'm sure it's a nice pipe dream.

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Voting? Lmao

Fishback isn't even white

boognish_bear said:

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Nick Fuentes GOES OFF on Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson for pinning Charlie Kirk’s аѕѕаѕѕіոаtіоո on Israel

“The right-wing can never forgive Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson—The left lives to fight and k*ӏӏ another day because of what YOU PEOPLE did!” pic.twitter.com/fzd6XJeLjb

— 𝐆𝐫𝐢𝐦𝐚𝐥𝐝𝐮𝐬 (@ImperiumFirst) August 18, 2026

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He's right about that. But I think the truth is neither of these nutjobs are conservative in any meaningful sense.

Their grifters.

boognish_bear said:

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James Fishback is winning every college campus precinct VoteHub has examined tonight.

— Garrett Herrin (@GarrettHerrin) August 19, 2026

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Fishback won 18-35 (which is the most diverse demographic) but still only finished w/ 10%... its wild to me there are still so many damn Boomers.