LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ARbear13 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ARbear13 said:

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Today, the Vatican officially rejected the doctrinal titles of Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They did this specifically to avoid confusion regarding Mary's role in God's redemptive plan for humanity.

The term was originally proposed centuries ago by well-meaning, theologically-minded Catholics who wanted to emphasize that Mary did participate (in a subordinate way) in God's plan for human salvation by birthing and raising Jesus, the One Redeemer and Mediator. However, Pope Leo XIV and the Catholic hierarchy concluded that these titles are misleading in modern languages and make it seem like Mother Mary has her own, independent participation in our salvation, which is obviously false and heretical. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer. Everyone else, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, only participates in this process as far as we point others toward Jesus as Savior.

Hopefully actions like these will help my Protestant friends on this site realize that we Catholics DO NOT worship Mother Mary or anything other than the Triune God. We never did.

---

Many Catholics would argue with this stand.
But then, many Protestants falsely believe they will go to heaven because they are good people.

The lack of understanding people have in "their own faith" is amazing at times.

---

If you made a poll asking Catholics "Do you worship Mary as a goddess?" every single one of them that had ever darkened the door of a church and still claimed Catholicism would say "No, of course not."

Catholics are Christians. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior. There is no other name by which men can be saved.

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That would be amazing because I am certain that if I polled Protestants why they would go to heaven, a fair percentage would wrongly answer, they are a good person.

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And the rest believe osas nonsense and then when their pastor ends up in prison and they head to their 5th pastor in skinny jeans in 10 years cuz they didn t like the last one, they are their own popes and magisterium after all thanks to Martin Luther, they just say "well he wasnt TROOLY saved" etc.

They also can know that they love jesus "enough" and are "good people" and at what point Catholics venerate Mary too much.

Its amazing their precision in measurement of truly unmeasurable things . They even have more confidence and knowledge than even Paul of how God judges us.

Paul even said he didnt know. But not BaylorFans. Yet they know. Fear not. They dont even work out their faith with fear and trembling. Its a scrultura they sola but choose to ignore like John 6:53 so they John 6:61.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Wiki is probably not the best source but her is a quick snippet

"Some early Protestant Reformers venerated and honored Mary. Martin Luther said of Mary:
the honor given to the mother of God has been rooted so deeply into the hearts of men that no one wants to hear any opposition to this celebration... We also grant that she should be honored, since we, according to Saint Paul's words [Romans 12] are indebted to show honor one to another for the sake of the One who dwells in us, Jesus Christ. Therefore we have an obligation to honor Mary. But be careful to give her honor that is fitting. Unfortunately, I worry that we give her all too high an honor for she is accorded much more esteem than she should be given or than she accounted to herself.[1]
Zwingli said, "I esteem immensely the Mother of God" and "The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow".[citation needed]
Thus the idea of respect and high honour was not rejected by the first Protestants; but rather it was the matter of degrees of honor given to Mary, as the mother of Jesus, that Protestant Reformers were concerned with, and therefore the practical implications for Mariology are still a matter of debate"

Based on the latest from the Vatican it seems RC is also still debating the degrees of honor given to Mary.

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Do you honestly think the quotes I've given are merely instances of an excessive degree of honor, and not blatant and rank idolatry and heresy? Why the kid glove treatment?

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I wasn't speaking directly to the quotes . I was speaking primarily of personal experience with family and friends.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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ARbear13 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ARbear13 said:

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Today, the Vatican officially rejected the doctrinal titles of Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They did this specifically to avoid confusion regarding Mary's role in God's redemptive plan for humanity.

The term was originally proposed centuries ago by well-meaning, theologically-minded Catholics who wanted to emphasize that Mary did participate (in a subordinate way) in God's plan for human salvation by birthing and raising Jesus, the One Redeemer and Mediator. However, Pope Leo XIV and the Catholic hierarchy concluded that these titles are misleading in modern languages and make it seem like Mother Mary has her own, independent participation in our salvation, which is obviously false and heretical. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer. Everyone else, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, only participates in this process as far as we point others toward Jesus as Savior.

Hopefully actions like these will help my Protestant friends on this site realize that we Catholics DO NOT worship Mother Mary or anything other than the Triune God. We never did.

---

Many Catholics would argue with this stand.
But then, many Protestants falsely believe they will go to heaven because they are good people.

The lack of understanding people have in "their own faith" is amazing at times.

---

If you made a poll asking Catholics "Do you worship Mary as a goddess?" every single one of them that had ever darkened the door of a church and still claimed Catholicism would say "No, of course not."

Catholics are Christians. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior. There is no other name by which men can be saved.

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Its good for them to be clear on this in words, but actions matter as much if not more. So
Of course they would answer no, but then they'd start their hail mary prayer.
Catholics have invented a mythos around Mary, being sinless, being a mediator, being an active spirit in this world, having a greater part in salvation in practice than the OP lets on.
It is effectively ancestor worship, or it resembles it in every way.
Catholics have taken veneration to the utmost of worship. Effectively conveying to her all the attributes of Christ, but yeah, sure they don't worship her. They do in every way except to label her the Christ. She is worthy of veneration, but to Catholics it is something more than veneration based on practice and actions.

Having said that I love and respect my devout Catholic friends, they can have bad theology in part and still find their way to Jesus. Same goes with prots. Sadly for both, many will not be with the Lord because their faith in Christ was merely words deep and not true belief.

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Sounds like someone that would study Our Lady of Guadalupeand say the devil did it. Someone on here said that lol

Im sure they believe the same about the shroud of turin.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ARBear13 gave a good answer, that Mary is the first and greatest evangelist. Her role as co-mediatrix and co-redeemer, if one chooses to use those terms, doesn't diminish Christ but points the way to him.

The idea is similar to what Paul says in Colossians 1:24 -- that he is grateful for his sufferings because they help complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of course we know that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for our salvation. All that's lacking is evangelizing, which is what Paul refers to.

To that I would only add that Mary's role as evangelist didn't end with Christ's death and resurrection. The Church teaches that it continues until the end of time:

Quote:

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This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. (Lumen Gentium 62)

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ArBear didn't give a good answer. He didn't answer me at all. He completely dodged the point, just as you are doing.

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"All Christians can help 'save' others in a subordinate sense through evangelism by directing people to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 9:22. The Catholic Church believes that Mother Mary is the best possible evangelist because she loved Jesus more than anyone else, so she can bring people to salvation through her evangelical witness. That is the sense in which the word 'salvation' is used in all the scenarios you quoted."

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is most of what we "know" about Mary by biblical, traditional or, from some other source.

Has the story, heierarchy, status of Mary risen over time as myths rise to ver time or, has it remained consistent since the resurrection?
Sources?

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ARBear13 gave a good answer, that Mary is the first and greatest evangelist. Her role as co-mediatrix and co-redeemer, if one chooses to use those terms, doesn't diminish Christ but points the way to him.

The idea is similar to what Paul says in Colossians 1:24 -- that he is grateful for his sufferings because they help complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of course we know that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for our salvation. All that's lacking is evangelizing, which is what Paul refers to.

To that I would only add that Mary's role as evangelist didn't end with Christ's death and resurrection. The Church teaches that it continues until the end of time:

Quote:

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This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. (Lumen Gentium 62)

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ArBear didn't give a good answer. He didn't answer me at all. He completely dodged the point, just as you are doing.

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"All Christians can help 'save' others in a subordinate sense through evangelism by directing people to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 9:22. The Catholic Church believes that Mother Mary is the best possible evangelist because she loved Jesus more than anyone else, so she can bring people to salvation through her evangelical witness. That is the sense in which the word 'salvation' is used in all the scenarios you quoted."

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Seriously- what's the matter with you Roman Catholics? Are you honestly saying that because all Christians can help save others, that it means "none can attain salvation except through that Christian", that "none goes to Jesus except through that Christian", that the Christian is the "gate of heaven", that sinners receive pardon "by that Christian's intercession alone", that the Christian is the "road we must travel to get to God", and that "we obtain EVERY hope, grace and ALL SALVATION through that Christian"??

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No, Mary is unique in that way. As Christ's mother, she alone is the gate through which salvation came into the world.

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Jesus - "I AM THE GATE" (John 10:9)

Your blind spot to Marian idolatry is absolutely astounding and perplexing. You can't even see it as you're doing it.

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"It was thus that Christ died as a ransom, paid once for all, on behalf of our sins, he the innocent for us the guilty, so as to present us in God's sight." (1 Peter 3:18)

"Even as I write, I am glad of my sufferings on your behalf, as, in this mortal frame of mine, I help to pay off the debt which the afflictions of Christ still leave to be paid, for the sake of his body, the Church." (Colossians 1:24)

Which one is right, and which one is the heretic?

You will never find satisfactory answers to your questions by proof-texting. You must understand that words have different meanings in different contexts.

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It wasn't "proof-texting". You called Mary the gate, when Jesus' direct and clear, unambiguous words was that HE is the gate. You're attempting to squirm out of the fact that you demonstrated first hand the kind of Marian idolatry that plagues your church.

There is nothing Paul is saying that is giving him the exclusive honor that only belongs to Jesus. There is only ONE gate to heaven, "THE" gate. And Jesus says he is it. Roman Catholics like yourself give that honor to Mary. And whatever it is, be it extreme ignorance, dishonesty, blindness, satanic brainwashing, even plain old stupidity... something is blinding you to your idolatry.

And never mind that you only answered to the "gate" aspect of my question, and conspicuously avoided answering to the "salvation being ONLY through Mary" part. Your sophistry isn't going to work.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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ARbear13 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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ARbear13 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ARbear13 said:

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Today, the Vatican officially rejected the doctrinal titles of Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They did this specifically to avoid confusion regarding Mary's role in God's redemptive plan for humanity.

The term was originally proposed centuries ago by well-meaning, theologically-minded Catholics who wanted to emphasize that Mary did participate (in a subordinate way) in God's plan for human salvation by birthing and raising Jesus, the One Redeemer and Mediator. However, Pope Leo XIV and the Catholic hierarchy concluded that these titles are misleading in modern languages and make it seem like Mother Mary has her own, independent participation in our salvation, which is obviously false and heretical. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer. Everyone else, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, only participates in this process as far as we point others toward Jesus as Savior.

Hopefully actions like these will help my Protestant friends on this site realize that we Catholics DO NOT worship Mother Mary or anything other than the Triune God. We never did.

---

Many Catholics would argue with this stand.
But then, many Protestants falsely believe they will go to heaven because they are good people.

The lack of understanding people have in "their own faith" is amazing at times.

---

If you made a poll asking Catholics "Do you worship Mary as a goddess?" every single one of them that had ever darkened the door of a church and still claimed Catholicism would say "No, of course not."

Catholics are Christians. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior. There is no other name by which men can be saved.

---

Its good for them to be clear on this in words, but actions matter as much if not more. So
Of course they would answer no, but then they'd start their hail mary prayer.
Catholics have invented a mythos around Mary, being sinless, being a mediator, being an active spirit in this world, having a greater part in salvation in practice than the OP lets on.
It is effectively ancestor worship, or it resembles it in every way.
Catholics have taken veneration to the utmost of worship. Effectively conveying to her all the attributes of Christ, but yeah, sure they don't worship her. They do in every way except to label her the Christ. She is worthy of veneration, but to Catholics it is something more than veneration based on practice and actions.

Having said that I love and respect my devout Catholic friends, they can have bad theology in part and still find their way to Jesus. Same goes with prots. Sadly for both, many will not be with the Lord because their faith in Christ was merely words deep and not true belief.

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No devotion to any saint, even the Blessed Virgin Mary, is necessary for salvation in Catholic dogma.

Catholics are required to believe the four Marian dogmas, but if you actually read the explanations surrounding them, you will notice that they have very little to do to Mary's importance and very much to do with Jesus's importance. Mary's entire role in Catholic theology is to point believers toward Christ.

Every quality the Catholic Church assigns to Mary derives from her role as the Mother of God. She has no independent power or authority apart from that which is given to her by her Son, Jesus.

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One doesnt have to assign salvation to a being to "worship" it. One just need to give the being God like qualities and then develop worshipping practices towards it. Lots of false gods in the world, not all of them are based on "salvation".

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Who is the woman in Revelation?

Fre3dombear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ARbear13 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ARbear13 said:

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Today, the Vatican officially rejected the doctrinal titles of Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They did this specifically to avoid confusion regarding Mary's role in God's redemptive plan for humanity.

The term was originally proposed centuries ago by well-meaning, theologically-minded Catholics who wanted to emphasize that Mary did participate (in a subordinate way) in God's plan for human salvation by birthing and raising Jesus, the One Redeemer and Mediator. However, Pope Leo XIV and the Catholic hierarchy concluded that these titles are misleading in modern languages and make it seem like Mother Mary has her own, independent participation in our salvation, which is obviously false and heretical. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer. Everyone else, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, only participates in this process as far as we point others toward Jesus as Savior.

Hopefully actions like these will help my Protestant friends on this site realize that we Catholics DO NOT worship Mother Mary or anything other than the Triune God. We never did.

---

Many Catholics would argue with this stand.
But then, many Protestants falsely believe they will go to heaven because they are good people.

The lack of understanding people have in "their own faith" is amazing at times.

---

If you made a poll asking Catholics "Do you worship Mary as a goddess?" every single one of them that had ever darkened the door of a church and still claimed Catholicism would say "No, of course not."

Catholics are Christians. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior. There is no other name by which men can be saved.

---

That would be amazing because I am certain that if I polled Protestants why they would go to heaven, a fair percentage would wrongly answer, they are a good person.

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And the rest believe osas nonsense and then when their pastor ends up in prison and they head to their 5th pastor in skinny jeans in 10 years cuz they didn t like the last one, they are their own popes and magisterium after all thanks to Martin Luther, they just say "well he wasnt TROOLY saved" etc.

They also can know that they love jesus "enough" and are "good people" and at what point Catholics venerate Mary too much.

Its amazing their precision in measurement of truly unmeasurable things . They even have more confidence and knowledge than even Paul of how God judges us.

Paul even said he didnt know. But not BaylorFans. Yet they know. Fear not. They dont even work out their faith with fear and trembling. Its a scrultura they sola but choose to ignore like John 6:53 so they John 6:61.

---

You're exactly right. Protestants are the only ones that rationalize.

/s

Fre3dombear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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ARbear13 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ARbear13 said:

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Today, the Vatican officially rejected the doctrinal titles of Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They did this specifically to avoid confusion regarding Mary's role in God's redemptive plan for humanity.

The term was originally proposed centuries ago by well-meaning, theologically-minded Catholics who wanted to emphasize that Mary did participate (in a subordinate way) in God's plan for human salvation by birthing and raising Jesus, the One Redeemer and Mediator. However, Pope Leo XIV and the Catholic hierarchy concluded that these titles are misleading in modern languages and make it seem like Mother Mary has her own, independent participation in our salvation, which is obviously false and heretical. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer. Everyone else, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, only participates in this process as far as we point others toward Jesus as Savior.

Hopefully actions like these will help my Protestant friends on this site realize that we Catholics DO NOT worship Mother Mary or anything other than the Triune God. We never did.

---

Many Catholics would argue with this stand.
But then, many Protestants falsely believe they will go to heaven because they are good people.

The lack of understanding people have in "their own faith" is amazing at times.

---

If you made a poll asking Catholics "Do you worship Mary as a goddess?" every single one of them that had ever darkened the door of a church and still claimed Catholicism would say "No, of course not."

Catholics are Christians. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior. There is no other name by which men can be saved.

---

Its good for them to be clear on this in words, but actions matter as much if not more. So
Of course they would answer no, but then they'd start their hail mary prayer.
Catholics have invented a mythos around Mary, being sinless, being a mediator, being an active spirit in this world, having a greater part in salvation in practice than the OP lets on.
It is effectively ancestor worship, or it resembles it in every way.
Catholics have taken veneration to the utmost of worship. Effectively conveying to her all the attributes of Christ, but yeah, sure they don't worship her. They do in every way except to label her the Christ. She is worthy of veneration, but to Catholics it is something more than veneration based on practice and actions.

Having said that I love and respect my devout Catholic friends, they can have bad theology in part and still find their way to Jesus. Same goes with prots. Sadly for both, many will not be with the Lord because their faith in Christ was merely words deep and not true belief.

---

Sounds like someone that would study Our Lady of Guadalupeand say the devil did it. Someone on here said that lol

Im sure they believe the same about the shroud of turin.

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The Lady of Guadalupe commanded that a shrine to her be built in her honor.

What is wrong with you Roman Catholics?? My God.

Realitybites said:

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OsoCoreyell said:

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I want to know by what authority Catholics think it is sound theology to pray to Mary.

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I'm not Roman Catholic but this explanation may help.

Intercessory prayer isn't praying to a person. It is a prayer request that others pray to God for us.

The Biblical support for it is found in these verses:

James 5:16 - Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working."

John 11:26 - "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (It's a modern heresy that Christians die. Historically, the passing of the Christian has been thought of as the falling asleep of their body in the Lord to await a bodily resurrection. This is why Christians bury their dead, and don't cremate them.)

Hebrews 12:1 - "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." (We are surrounded by this great cloud today, not at some point when we get to heaven).

Revelation 8:3-4 "Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand."

The bolded portion of the text is the actual technical mechanism by which God hears your prayer, by the way.

But who gave this angel with the golden censer your prayer to offer to God? Revelation answers that too.

Revelation 5:8 "Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

As you can see, making prayer requests of other Christians is not limited to those in your Sunday School Class, Church, City, State, Country, or Generation.

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Ruh roh. There ya go with verses and examples to which im sure youll get a bunch of nuh uh, osas, ss

They are all better popes and magisterium than 2000 years of knowledge before them. Oh to be so smart

Fre3dombear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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ARbear13 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ARbear13 said:

---

Today, the Vatican officially rejected the doctrinal titles of Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They did this specifically to avoid confusion regarding Mary's role in God's redemptive plan for humanity.

The term was originally proposed centuries ago by well-meaning, theologically-minded Catholics who wanted to emphasize that Mary did participate (in a subordinate way) in God's plan for human salvation by birthing and raising Jesus, the One Redeemer and Mediator. However, Pope Leo XIV and the Catholic hierarchy concluded that these titles are misleading in modern languages and make it seem like Mother Mary has her own, independent participation in our salvation, which is obviously false and heretical. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer. Everyone else, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, only participates in this process as far as we point others toward Jesus as Savior.

Hopefully actions like these will help my Protestant friends on this site realize that we Catholics DO NOT worship Mother Mary or anything other than the Triune God. We never did.

---

Many Catholics would argue with this stand.
But then, many Protestants falsely believe they will go to heaven because they are good people.

The lack of understanding people have in "their own faith" is amazing at times.

---

If you made a poll asking Catholics "Do you worship Mary as a goddess?" every single one of them that had ever darkened the door of a church and still claimed Catholicism would say "No, of course not."

Catholics are Christians. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior. There is no other name by which men can be saved.

---

Its good for them to be clear on this in words, but actions matter as much if not more. So
Of course they would answer no, but then they'd start their hail mary prayer.
Catholics have invented a mythos around Mary, being sinless, being a mediator, being an active spirit in this world, having a greater part in salvation in practice than the OP lets on.
It is effectively ancestor worship, or it resembles it in every way.
Catholics have taken veneration to the utmost of worship. Effectively conveying to her all the attributes of Christ, but yeah, sure they don't worship her. They do in every way except to label her the Christ. She is worthy of veneration, but to Catholics it is something more than veneration based on practice and actions.

Having said that I love and respect my devout Catholic friends, they can have bad theology in part and still find their way to Jesus. Same goes with prots. Sadly for both, many will not be with the Lord because their faith in Christ was merely words deep and not true belief.

---

Sounds like someone that would study Our Lady of Guadalupeand say the devil did it. Someone on here said that lol

Im sure they believe the same about the shroud of turin.

---

There are strong arguments on both sides regarding the shroud of Turin.

The only thing that can be said about the shroud that is 100% factual is, it's the center of a lot of Christian argument and often times a big distraction from Christ's saving grace.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Also, are you buying ArBear's argument that those quotes were "out of context"? You let him off the hook too easily. I have been trying to address this with him myself, but I fear he has joined the long list of people who don't like my questions so they ignore me. I guess you're gonna have to get that out of him, if you care to.

Is there really a context in which such statements could EVER be acceptable to someone who professes to love and only worship God, as they say they do? Denying that one worships Mary, but then balking at disavowing clear statements of Mary worship somehow just doesn't make a person seem like they're on the level.

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I married into a Catholic family and have been to many, many Catholic masses. Some of the family seem to place Mary higher than others but I've yet to hear any of them say salvation comes through Mary or, anything remotely close to it.
I've sat through many liturgies and have yet to hear one say anything that links Mary to salvation. On the other hand, I've also sat through a handful of rosaries after a death and hear nothing about Christ expect from family members in casual conversation before and after. Never have I heard the person conducting (is that the right word) the rosary speak of Christ salvation.

The last rosary I went to , all of the grand kids had t-shirts with their favorite or most appropriate Bible verse on it-verses they had learned in family Bible studies with their grandparents.

As for the quotes, I'd love to have a link to the English translations of each document so I could read them for myself. I fully expect Prots to attack them and RCs to support them or shy away from any defense.

It may be that ARBear isn't shying away from answering but collecting sources . We'll see.

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Individual Roman Catholics here and there may not credit Mary with salvation... but the question is not about them, nor about what they show outwardly, but about specific statements made by their leaders. Are they able to disavow those obviously heretical and idolatrous beliefs? Because if not, then something is really, really wrong, and their repeated denial that they worship Mary starts to look phony.

Can you really doubt the translation of those quotes? Roman Catholicism is suffused with this kind of excessive and idolatrous glorification of Mary. I'm sure you've read the quotes I've given in other threads from The Glories of Mary, or the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary (a book of psalms, where the author used the Psalms from the Old Testament and inserted MARY in place of God. Yes, you heard that right. If that in of itself does not scream idolatry, then idolatry has no meaning whatsoever. If one can't recognize the idolatry in that, then one never will.)

Pope John Paul II's personal motto was "Totus tuum Maria" which (accurately) translated means "I am all yours, Mary". It comes from a Marian prayer in the 1712 book True Devotion to Mary by Louis de Montfort. The prayer goes:

"Totus tuus ego sum, et omnia mea tua sunt. Accipio te in mea omnia. Praebe mihi cor tuum, Maria."
("I belong entirely to you, and all that I have is yours. I take you for my all. O Mary, give me your heart")


He belongs entirely to Mary?? Mary is his all??

How does all this not make plainly obvious, about who Mary is in Roman Catholicism? And mind you, we're not even including their bowing and praying to Mary's image IN CHURCH, singing hymns to her IN CHURCH, holding hundreds of festivals for her, calling her "THE ALL HOLY ONE" in their catechism, etc. There's gotta be a point where the oft-repeated, "you're taking it out of context" go-to argument from Roman Catholics hunkering down on the defensive starts to face an enormous and ever-expanding wall of implausibility.... isn't there? Why do they think we'll keep buying it? The level of gaslighting is truly perplexing.

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I understand what you are saying regarding RC leaders and their written statements regarding Mary. I just don't see the trickledown coming out in the liturgy.

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But again, the question is not whether they are personally engaging in or expressing those sentiments - the question is whether these Catholics, who insist they aren't worshiping Mary, are willing/able to disavow those statements? If they are not, then it doesn't do much to lend credence to their claim. No one who truly loves and worships God alone would ever find those statements even remotely acceptable. If they lack discernment in that area, then there's something really, really wrong.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Nah, not worship, really guys, not worship...

She is the mother of God, the queen of heaven, spouse of the holy spirit, heavens gate, born and lived without sin, must be a perpetual virgin to continue the myth of being sinless, etc.

For the record, I truly respect and honor Mary, but she would figuratively be rolling in her grave based on how high she has been elevated, to the point of idolatry by the catholic church.

Just some of the titles used by catholics for Mary follow.

Gate of Heaven

Ark of the Covenant

Cause of Our Joy

Comforter of the Afflicted

Co-Redemptrix

Destroyer of Heresy

Gate of Heaven

Joy of the Just

Health of the Sick

Help of Christians

Holy Mary

Holy Mother of God

Holy Virgin of Virgins

House of Gold

The Immaculate Heart

Mirror of Justice

Mother of the Poor

Morning Star

Mother Inviolate

Mother Most Admirable

Mother Most Amiable

Mother Most Chaste

Mother Most Pure

Mother of Christ

Mother of Divine Grace

Mother of Good Counsel

Mother of Orphans

Mother of Our Creator

Mother of Our Redeemer

Mother of Perpetual Help

Mother of Sorrows

Mother of the Son

Mother Thrice Admirable

Mother Undefiled

Mystical Rose

Our Lady de Gray

Our Lady de la Breche

Our Lady della Croce

Our Lady de la Treille

Our Lady of Confidence

Our Lady of Akita

Our Lady of Abundance

Our Lady of Acheropita

Our Lady of Africa

Our Lady of Aix-la-Chapelle

Our Lady of Alba Royale

Our Lady of Alexandria

Our Lady of All Help

Our Lady of Almudena

Our Lady of Amiens

Our Lady of Angels

Our Lady of Angels Toulouse

Our Lady of Apareceda

Our Lady of Apparitions

Our Lady of Arabida

Our Lady of Ardents

Our Lady of Ardilliers

Our Lady of Argenteuil

Our Lady of Arras

Our Lady of Atocha

Our Lady of Banneux

Our Lady of Bavaria

Our Lady of Beaumont

Our Lady of Beauraing

Our Lady of Belle Fontaine

Our Lady of Benoite-Vaux

Our Lady of Bessiere

Our Lady of Betharam

Our Lady of Bethlehem

Our Lady of Bolougne

Our Lady of Bonaria

Our Lady of Bonport

Our Lady of Bourbourg

Our Lady of Bows

Our Lady of Bruges

Our Lady of Buglose

Our Lady of Buch

Our Lady of Calais

Our Lady of Calevourt

Our Lady of Cambray

Our Lady of Cambron

Our Lady of Campitelli

Our Lady of Cana

Our Lady of Caravaggio

Our Lady of Carquere

Our Lady of Castelbruedo

Our Lady of Charity

Our Lady of Chartres

Our Lady of Chatillion

Our Lady of Chievres

Our Lady Of Citeaux

Our Lady of Clairvaux

Our Lady of Clemency

Our Lady of Clermont

Our Lady of Clery

Our Lady of Clos-Evrard

Our Lady of Compassion

Our Lady of Conquest

Our Lady of Consolation

Our Lady of Constantinople

Our Lady of Copacabana

Our Lady of Coutances

Our Lady of Covadonga

Our Lady of Craganor

Our Lady of Czestochowa

Our Lady D'Iron

Our Lady of Damietta

Our Lady of Deliverance

Our Lady of Didinia

Our Lady of Dijon

Our Lady of Divine Providence

Our Lady of Dordrecht

Our Lady of Edessa

Our Lady of Egypt

Our Lady of Einsiendeln

Our Lady of Emminont

Our Lady of Esquernes

Our Lady of Exile

Our Lady of Faith

Our Lady of Fatima

Our Lady of Fire

Our Lady of Flines

Our Lady of Foi

Our Lady of Fourviere

Our Lady of Foy

Our Lady of France

Our Lady of Genazzano

Our Lady of Genesta

Our Lady of Gifts

Our Lady of Good Counsel

Our Lady of Good Deliverance

Our Lady of Good Haven

Our Lady of Good Health

Our Lady of Good Help

Our Lady of Good News

Our Lady of Good Remedies

Our Lady of Good Success

Our Lady of Good Tidings

Our Lady of Good Tidings, Lempdes

Our Lady of Grace

Our Lady of Grace, Normandy

Our Lady of Grace, Paris

Our Lady of Great Power

Our Lady of Guadalupe

Our Lady of Guam

Our Lady of Guard

Our Lady of Guidance

Our Lady of Happy Assembly

Our Lady of Haut

Our Lady of Helbron

Our Lady of Highest Grace

Our Lady of Hildesheim

Our Lady of Ireland

Our Lady of Justinienne

Our Lady of Kazan

Our Lady of Kieff

Our Lady of Kiev

Our Lady of Knock

Our Lady of Kuehn

Our Lady of La Carolle

Our Lady of La Chapelle

Our Lady of La Guarde

Our Lady of La Rochette

Our Lady of La Salette

Our Lady of Lac Bouchet

Our Lady of Las Lajas

Our Lady of Last Agony

Our Lady of Laon

Our Lady of Lavang

Our Lady of Liesse

Our Lady of Life

Our Lady of Light

Our Lady of Ligny

Our Lady of Loreto

Our Lady of Lourdes

Our Lady of Louvain

Our Lady of Lyons

Our Lady of Mantua

Our Lady of Marienthal

Our Lady of Marseilles

Our Lady of Matarieh

Our Lady of Meliapore

Our Lady of Milan

Our Lady of Miracles

Our Lady of Miracles Brescia

Our Lady of Miracles Paris

Our Lady of Miracles Rome

Our Lady of Molanus

Our Lady of Molene

Our Lady of Mondevi

Our Lady of Moreneta

Our Lady of Mount Carmel

Our Lady of Monte-Senario

Our Lady of Montserrat

Our Lady of Montevergine

Our Lady of Moustier

Our Lady of Moyen Point

Our Lady of Myan

Our Lady of Nanteuil

Our Lady of Naples

Our Lady of Narni

Our Lady of Naval

Our Lady of Nazareth

Our Lady of New

Our Lady of Oegnies

Our Lady of Oropa

Our Lady of Oviedo

Our Lady of Paris

Our Lady of Peace

Our Lady of Pellevoisin

Our Lady of Perpetual Help

Our Lady of Pignerol

Our Lady of Pompeii

Our Lady of Pontmain

Our Lady of Pontoise

Our Lady of Port Louis

Our Lady of Power

Our Lady of Premontre

Our Lady of Prompt Succor

Our Lady of Abundance or Prosperity

Our Lady of Pucha

Our Lady of Puig

Our Lady of Puy

Our Lady of Quito

Our Lady of Ransom

Our Lady of Ratisbon

Our Lady of Rennes

Our Lady of Rheims

Our Lady of Rocamadour

Our Lady of Rocks

Our Lady of Rossano

Our Lady of Rouen

Our Lady of Safety

Our Lady of Saideneida

Our Lady of Saint Acheul

Our Lady of St Fort Chartres

Our Lady of Saint John

Our Lady of Savigny

Our Lady of Sasopoli

Our Lady of Saussaie

Our Lady of Schiedam

Our Lady of Schier

Our Lady of Scutari

Our Lady of Seez

Our Lady of Sichem

Our Lady of Sion

Our Lady of Smelcem

Our Lady of Sorrows

Our Lady of Soissons

Our Lady of Speech

Our Lady of Spire

Our Lady of Succor

Our Lady of Tables

Our Lady of Talan

Our Lady of Tears

Our Lady of Tears, Spoleto

Our Lady of Terouenne

Our Lady of the Armed Forces

Our Lady of the Assumption

Our Lady of the Bells

Our Lady of the Bush

Our Lady of the Candles

Our Lady of the Cloister

Our Lady of the Conception

Our Lady of the Conception, Flanders

Our Lady of the Divine Shepherd

Our Lady of the Don

Our Lady of the Doves

Our Lady of the Empress

Our Lady of the Fields

Our Lady of the Flowering Thorn

Our Lady of the Forest

Our Lady of the Forests

Our Lady of the Founders

Our Lady of the Fountain

Our Lady of the Fountain, Constantinople

Our Lady of the Grotto Lamego

Our Lady of the Hermits

Our Lady of the Hill

Our Lady of the Holy Chapel

Our Lady of the Holy Cross

Our Lady of the Jesuit College

Our Lady of the Lily

Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal

Our Lady of the Mountains

Our Lady of the Palm

Our Lady of the Pillar

Our Lady of the Place

Our Lady of the Pond

Our Lady of the Portuguese

Our Lady of the Rock

Our Lady of the Rosary

Our Lady of the Sacred Heart

Our Lady of the Silver Foot

Our Lady of the Slain

Our Lady of the Snows

Our Lady of the Star

Our Lady of the Star, Portugal

Our Lady of the Taper

Our Lady of the Thorn

Our Lady of the Tower

Our Lady of the Underground

Our Lady of the Valley

Our Lady of the Vault

Our Lady of the Vine

Our Lady of the Way

Our Lady of the Woods

Our Lady of Tongres

Our Lady of Tortosa

Our Lady of Trapani

Our Lady of Treves

Our Lady of Trut

Our Lady of Valvenere

Our Lady of Vaussivieres

Our Lady of Verdun

Our Lady of Victories

Our Lady of Victory

Our Lady of Victory, Spain

Our Lady of Victory, Senlis

Our Lady of Victory, Tourney

Our Lady of Victory, Valois

Our Lady of Virtues

Our Lady of Vivonne

Our Lady of Vladimir

Our Lady of Walsingham

Our Lady of Zapopan

Our Lady of Zell

Our Lady the Helper

Our Lady Refuge of Sinners

Our Lady, Star of the Sea

Our Lady Queen of Peace

Tabernacle of the Lord

Temple of the Most Holy Trinity

Treasure House of God's Graces

Queen of Angels

Queen of Heaven

Queen of Patriarchs

Queen of Prophets

Queen of Apostles

Queen of Martyrs

Queen of Confessors

Queen of Virgins

Queen of All Saints

Queen Conceived Without Original Sin

Queen of the Most Holy Rosary

Queen of Peace

Refuge of Sinners

Seat of Wisdom

Singular Vessel of Devotion

Spiritual Vessel

Mary, Spouse of the Holy Spirit

Star of the Sea

Tower of David

Tower of Ivory

Vessel of Honor

Virgen de la Antigua

Virgin of the Battles

Virgin of the Kings

Virgin Most Prudent

Virgin Most Venerable

Virgin Most Renowned

Virgin Most Powerful

Virgin Most Merciful

Virgin Most Faithful

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All worthy fkr the literal sinless ever virgin Mother of God

Man the hubris of some people led astray with even the guy that invented the P's religion said same.

Imagine thinking less of Mary than Gabriel did. Yikes.

Lots of whistlers past the graveyard round here.

I posted the video yesterday or so. Summed it up well.

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Prots don't think less of Mary than Gabriel. Gabriel certainly didn't elevate her to the heights that RC's do. It's got all the signs of idolatry, and clearly not found in the Bible and not in the early church.

The Mary Queen of Heaven mythos evolved late and relies heavily upon new revelations. Such as replacing praying the Psalms with praying the Rosary and Hail Mary's.

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If course Gabriel didn't. He went to Mary as the only woman in the history of humanity to
Give birth to God. The greatest woman that ever lived. Surely Gabriel just thought of her as any other woman like say your mom.

Pffffffffffft lol. Sure.

Its truly so absurd how twisted up the Ps get on this. And shows clearly theyve read little to nothing of the early church.

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Can you give me another instance where God chose the best, most worthy, candidate for a job?
I can yhink of many that weren't worthy: Jacob, Moses, David, Gideon just to name a few.

Why do you suppose, in this one instance, God chose the worthy person? Was she worthy and, if so, on what do you base your opinion?

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Is this a serious question? Did anyone of them birth God? Hard to even discuss this with Ps that have such weak flawed logic of a newly invented religion with hardened hearts

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ARBear13 gave a good answer, that Mary is the first and greatest evangelist. Her role as co-mediatrix and co-redeemer, if one chooses to use those terms, doesn't diminish Christ but points the way to him.

The idea is similar to what Paul says in Colossians 1:24 -- that he is grateful for his sufferings because they help complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of course we know that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for our salvation. All that's lacking is evangelizing, which is what Paul refers to.

To that I would only add that Mary's role as evangelist didn't end with Christ's death and resurrection. The Church teaches that it continues until the end of time:

Quote:

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This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. (Lumen Gentium 62)

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ArBear didn't give a good answer. He didn't answer me at all. He completely dodged the point, just as you are doing.

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"All Christians can help 'save' others in a subordinate sense through evangelism by directing people to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 9:22. The Catholic Church believes that Mother Mary is the best possible evangelist because she loved Jesus more than anyone else, so she can bring people to salvation through her evangelical witness. That is the sense in which the word 'salvation' is used in all the scenarios you quoted."

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Seriously- what's the matter with you Roman Catholics? Are you honestly saying that because all Christians can help save others, that it means "none can attain salvation except through that Christian", that "none goes to Jesus except through that Christian", that the Christian is the "gate of heaven", that sinners receive pardon "by that Christian's intercession alone", that the Christian is the "road we must travel to get to God", and that "we obtain EVERY hope, grace and ALL SALVATION through that Christian"??

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No, Mary is unique in that way. As Christ's mother, she alone is the gate through which salvation came into the world.

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Jesus - "I AM THE GATE" (John 10:9)

Your blind spot to Marian idolatry is absolutely astounding and perplexing. You can't even see it as you're doing it.

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"It was thus that Christ died as a ransom, paid once for all, on behalf of our sins, he the innocent for us the guilty, so as to present us in God's sight." (1 Peter 3:18)

"Even as I write, I am glad of my sufferings on your behalf, as, in this mortal frame of mine, I help to pay off the debt which the afflictions of Christ still leave to be paid, for the sake of his body, the Church." (Colossians 1:24)

Which one is right, and which one is the heretic?

You will never find satisfactory answers to your questions by proof-texting. You must understand that words have different meanings in different contexts.

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It wasn't "proof-texting". You called Mary the gate, when Jesus' direct and clear, unambiguous words was that HE is the gate. You're attempting to squirm out of the fact that you demonstrated first hand the kind of Marian idolatry that plagues your church.

There is nothing Paul is saying that is giving him the exclusive honor that only belongs to Jesus. There is only ONE gate to heaven, "THE" gate. And Jesus says he is it. Roman Catholics like yourself give that honor to Mary. And whatever it is, be it extreme ignorance, dishonesty, blindness, satanic brainwashing, even plain old stupidity... something is blinding you to your idolatry.

And never mind that you only answered to the "gate" aspect of my question, and conspicuously avoided answering to the "salvation being ONLY through Mary" part. Your sophistry isn't going to work.

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Hopefully we can agree that Jesus is not an actual gate. Metaphors can be used in different ways and for different things. When we say Mary was the gate by which salvation entered the world, we simply mean that through her Christ became incarnate.

Paul may not be giving himself exclusive honor, but he is taking honor that belongs exclusively to Jesus--at least by your logic. That's why you can't just pick out words and phrases to prove a point. You need to understand what is meant in context.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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OsoCoreyell said:

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I want to know by what authority Catholics think it is sound theology to pray to Mary.

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I'm not Roman Catholic but this explanation may help.

Intercessory prayer isn't praying to a person. It is a prayer request that others pray to God for us.

The Biblical support for it is found in these verse:

James 5:16 - Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working."

John 11:26 - "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (It's a modern heresy that Christians die. Historically, the passing of the Christian has been thought of as the falling asleep of their body in the Lord to await a bodily resurrection. This is why Christians bury their dead, and don't cremate them.)

Hebrews 12:1 - "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." (We are surrounded by this great cloud today, not at some point when we get to heaven).

Revelation 8:3-4 "Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand."

The bolded portion of the text is the actual technical mechanism by which God hears your prayer, by the way.

But who gave this angel with the golden censer your prayer to offer to God? Revelation answers that too.

Revelation 5:8 "Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

As you can see, making prayer requests of other Christians is not limited to those in your Sunday School Class, Church, City, State, Country, or Generation.

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There is NOTHING in Scripture that clearly and explicitly instructs us to pray to departed saints or Mary, or tells us that they even have the ability to receive prayers to begin with. There is no instance whatsoever anywhere in the Old or New Testament of anyone praying to a departed believer for any kind of intercession. None. There exists NO teaching from Jesus or his apostles that we can and should pray to Mary and the saints.

I just don't understand how a church can build a system of faith, worship, and practice on something like praying to Mary or the saints, when the basis of such a practice can only be derived by reading your assumptions into Scripture and drawing non sequitur inferences like you did in order to justify something that really isn't there. Especially since there is no real reason to do it. We have direct access to God and Jesus, and we are explicitly instructed by Jesus himself to go directly to them. This is the clear, unambiguous teaching of Scripture.

The prayers being in "bowls of incense" does not necessarily indicate that those prayers were directed to the saints or Mary. And there is no reason whatsoever to believe that this is the "actual mechanism" by which prayers go up to God. All this is pure eisegesis. And after all, the practice has no real benefit - what does a believer lose if they don't pray to Mary of the saints? On the other hand, if you DO pray to them, you risk committing idolatry and angering God. The risk/reward is way too high for something finding its basis only in haphazard eisegesis. Praying to Mary and the saints had its origins in pagan Rome. In order to make the pagans convert to Christianity, they were allowed to continue praying to their multiple gods, but they just renamed those gods after Christian figures, like Mary and the saints. Those of you who engage in this practice REALLY need to understand this history.

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There is reason the curtain that partitioned the Holy of Holies tore from top to bottom.

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Tradition is Mary sewed that curtain. Now Ps will say they dont do tradition because they sola scriptura yet the scriptura tells them that tradition is part of it.

Ps even invented a completely separate Bible that didnt exist prior to Martin Luther and somehow explain it away as its the scriptura they want to believe just like they completely ignore verses that nuke their beliefs

Even with all that Ps and Catholics believe statistically most of the same things. Its just the Ps toss aside some of the most critical ones

And of course Ps wouldnt even have a Bible to sola had the Catholics not created it. Bizarre place to find ones self.

ARbear13 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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ARbear13 said:

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Today, the Vatican officially rejected the doctrinal titles of Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They did this specifically to avoid confusion regarding Mary's role in God's redemptive plan for humanity.

The term was originally proposed centuries ago by well-meaning, theologically-minded Catholics who wanted to emphasize that Mary did participate (in a subordinate way) in God's plan for human salvation by birthing and raising Jesus, the One Redeemer and Mediator. However, Pope Leo XIV and the Catholic hierarchy concluded that these titles are misleading in modern languages and make it seem like Mother Mary has her own, independent participation in our salvation, which is obviously false and heretical. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer. Everyone else, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, only participates in this process as far as we point others toward Jesus as Savior.

Hopefully actions like these will help my Protestant friends on this site realize that we Catholics DO NOT worship Mother Mary or anything other than the Triune God. We never did.

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To be clear the document was just nonsense and more Fracis style words that mean nothing but trying to drive confusion.

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I thought it was one of the most helpful documents to originate from the Francis pontificate, though that is admittedly a low bar to clear.

Marian titles and doctrines are always meant to reflect in some way the power, authority, or identity of Christ. Co-Redemptrix is problematic because the prefix co- has multiple meanings in English and in many other languages, and an unqualified Redemptrix title for Mother Mary is unacceptable for obvious reasons. It is too easily misunderstood without extensive theological knowledge and careful explanation, which makes it unhelpful and risky for general use. It's semantics, but semantics matter when dealing with terms related to the God of All Creation.

Someone on social media argued that Mother of God is the highest, most accurate, and most complimentary title Mary could possibly be given without risking heresy. I agree with them. The Magisterium's role is to teach the Truth with clarity. If terms have limitations that make clarity extremely difficult, then they shouldn't be used.

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Its simple actually. Does a co-pilot do what a pilot does? They clearly are 2 separate roles. Cum means with. Not equal. Some people, Ps i guess, get scared of words that end in Trix not understanding the root of where it comes from.

Id also submit they didnt reject these terms. Simply said they are confusing for some that are uneducated or unread or dint understand. Since Vatican Ii theyve tried to bend towards Ps hoping to bring them back to God's church that they left in the 1500s when they invented something new. Its more about the enemy within trying to weaken the Catholic church but its failing as the Catholic faith's exploding amongst young people and those that infiltrated are quickly dying off. Reversion to the mean is happening.

It is though in fact an odd thing for them to get worked ul in. Im happy to make use if the benefits of venerating the Mother of God and queen of Heaven.

I certainlynwouldnt want to stand before Jesus hoping he doesnt care i thkught his Mother was just some other tool if anyone unworthy that Gabriel could have gone to in the history of humanity.

Only one was chosen and Ps essentially spit on her as someone maybe even equal with their own mother, maybe even worse. Bizarre

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Also, are you buying ArBear's argument that those quotes were "out of context"? You let him off the hook too easily. I have been trying to address this with him myself, but I fear he has joined the long list of people who don't like my questions so they ignore me. I guess you're gonna have to get that out of him, if you care to.

Is there really a context in which such statements could EVER be acceptable to someone who professes to love and only worship God, as they say they do? Denying that one worships Mary, but then balking at disavowing clear statements of Mary worship somehow just doesn't make a person seem like they're on the level.

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I married into a Catholic family and have been to many, many Catholic masses. Some of the family seem to place Mary higher than others but I've yet to hear any of them say salvation comes through Mary or, anything remotely close to it.
I've sat through many liturgies and have yet to hear one say anything that links Mary to salvation. On the other hand, I've also sat through a handful of rosaries after a death and hear nothing about Christ expect from family members in casual conversation before and after. Never have I heard the person conducting (is that the right word) the rosary speak of Christ salvation.

The last rosary I went to , all of the grand kids had t-shirts with their favorite or most appropriate Bible verse on it-verses they had learned in family Bible studies with their grandparents.

As for the quotes, I'd love to have a link to the English translations of each document so I could read them for myself. I fully expect Prots to attack them and RCs to support them or shy away from any defense.

It may be that ARBear isn't shying away from answering but collecting sources . We'll see.

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Individual Roman Catholics here and there may not credit Mary with salvation... but the question is not about them, nor about what they show outwardly, but about specific statements made by their leaders. Are they able to disavow those obviously heretical and idolatrous beliefs? Because if not, then something is really, really wrong, and their repeated denial that they worship Mary starts to look phony.

Can you really doubt the translation of those quotes? Roman Catholicism is suffused with this kind of excessive and idolatrous glorification of Mary. I'm sure you've read the quotes I've given in other threads from The Glories of Mary, or the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary (a book of psalms, where the author used the Psalms from the Old Testament and inserted MARY in place of God. Yes, you heard that right. If that in of itself does not scream idolatry, then idolatry has no meaning whatsoever. If one can't recognize the idolatry in that, then one never will.)

Pope John Paul II's personal motto was "Totus tuum Maria" which (accurately) translated means "I am all yours, Mary". It comes from a Marian prayer in the 1712 book True Devotion to Mary by Louis de Montfort. The prayer goes:

"Totus tuus ego sum, et omnia mea tua sunt. Accipio te in mea omnia. Praebe mihi cor tuum, Maria."
("I belong entirely to you, and all that I have is yours. I take you for my all. O Mary, give me your heart")


He belongs entirely to Mary?? Mary is his all??

How does all this not make plainly obvious, about who Mary is in Roman Catholicism? And mind you, we're not even including their bowing and praying to Mary's image IN CHURCH, singing hymns to her IN CHURCH, holding hundreds of festivals for her, calling her "THE ALL HOLY ONE" in their catechism, etc. There's gotta be a point where the oft-repeated, "you're taking it out of context" go-to argument from Roman Catholics hunkering down on the defensive starts to face an enormous and ever-expanding wall of implausibility.... isn't there? Why do they think we'll keep buying it? The level of gaslighting is truly perplexing.

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I understand what you are saying regarding RC leaders and their written statements regarding Mary. I just don't see the trickledown coming out in the liturgy.

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But again, the question is not whether they are personally engaging in or expressing those sentiments - the question is whether these Catholics, who insist they aren't worshiping Mary, are willing/able to disavow those statements? If they are not, then it doesn't do much to lend credence to their claim. No one who truly loves and worships God alone would ever find those statements even remotely acceptable. If they lack discernment in that area, then there's something really, really wrong.

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Are all Christian's theologically trained?

Are we saved corporately or as individuals?

I don't deal with the Catholic Church. I deal with Catholics.

I don't deal with prosperity churches, Hillsong, Bethel etc… I deal with individuals.

You stick with the corporate battles of church vs church. I'll stick with individuals. We each have our roles.

Fre3dombear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Nah, not worship, really guys, not worship...

She is the mother of God, the queen of heaven, spouse of the holy spirit, heavens gate, born and lived without sin, must be a perpetual virgin to continue the myth of being sinless, etc.

For the record, I truly respect and honor Mary, but she would figuratively be rolling in her grave based on how high she has been elevated, to the point of idolatry by the catholic church.

Just some of the titles used by catholics for Mary follow.

Gate of Heaven

Ark of the Covenant

Cause of Our Joy

Comforter of the Afflicted

Co-Redemptrix

Destroyer of Heresy

Gate of Heaven

Joy of the Just

Health of the Sick

Help of Christians

Holy Mary

Holy Mother of God

Holy Virgin of Virgins

House of Gold

The Immaculate Heart

Mirror of Justice

Mother of the Poor

Morning Star

Mother Inviolate

Mother Most Admirable

Mother Most Amiable

Mother Most Chaste

Mother Most Pure

Mother of Christ

Mother of Divine Grace

Mother of Good Counsel

Mother of Orphans

Mother of Our Creator

Mother of Our Redeemer

Mother of Perpetual Help

Mother of Sorrows

Mother of the Son

Mother Thrice Admirable

Mother Undefiled

Mystical Rose

Our Lady de Gray

Our Lady de la Breche

Our Lady della Croce

Our Lady de la Treille

Our Lady of Confidence

Our Lady of Akita

Our Lady of Abundance

Our Lady of Acheropita

Our Lady of Africa

Our Lady of Aix-la-Chapelle

Our Lady of Alba Royale

Our Lady of Alexandria

Our Lady of All Help

Our Lady of Almudena

Our Lady of Amiens

Our Lady of Angels

Our Lady of Angels Toulouse

Our Lady of Apareceda

Our Lady of Apparitions

Our Lady of Arabida

Our Lady of Ardents

Our Lady of Ardilliers

Our Lady of Argenteuil

Our Lady of Arras

Our Lady of Atocha

Our Lady of Banneux

Our Lady of Bavaria

Our Lady of Beaumont

Our Lady of Beauraing

Our Lady of Belle Fontaine

Our Lady of Benoite-Vaux

Our Lady of Bessiere

Our Lady of Betharam

Our Lady of Bethlehem

Our Lady of Bolougne

Our Lady of Bonaria

Our Lady of Bonport

Our Lady of Bourbourg

Our Lady of Bows

Our Lady of Bruges

Our Lady of Buglose

Our Lady of Buch

Our Lady of Calais

Our Lady of Calevourt

Our Lady of Cambray

Our Lady of Cambron

Our Lady of Campitelli

Our Lady of Cana

Our Lady of Caravaggio

Our Lady of Carquere

Our Lady of Castelbruedo

Our Lady of Charity

Our Lady of Chartres

Our Lady of Chatillion

Our Lady of Chievres

Our Lady Of Citeaux

Our Lady of Clairvaux

Our Lady of Clemency

Our Lady of Clermont

Our Lady of Clery

Our Lady of Clos-Evrard

Our Lady of Compassion

Our Lady of Conquest

Our Lady of Consolation

Our Lady of Constantinople

Our Lady of Copacabana

Our Lady of Coutances

Our Lady of Covadonga

Our Lady of Craganor

Our Lady of Czestochowa

Our Lady D'Iron

Our Lady of Damietta

Our Lady of Deliverance

Our Lady of Didinia

Our Lady of Dijon

Our Lady of Divine Providence

Our Lady of Dordrecht

Our Lady of Edessa

Our Lady of Egypt

Our Lady of Einsiendeln

Our Lady of Emminont

Our Lady of Esquernes

Our Lady of Exile

Our Lady of Faith

Our Lady of Fatima

Our Lady of Fire

Our Lady of Flines

Our Lady of Foi

Our Lady of Fourviere

Our Lady of Foy

Our Lady of France

Our Lady of Genazzano

Our Lady of Genesta

Our Lady of Gifts

Our Lady of Good Counsel

Our Lady of Good Deliverance

Our Lady of Good Haven

Our Lady of Good Health

Our Lady of Good Help

Our Lady of Good News

Our Lady of Good Remedies

Our Lady of Good Success

Our Lady of Good Tidings

Our Lady of Good Tidings, Lempdes

Our Lady of Grace

Our Lady of Grace, Normandy

Our Lady of Grace, Paris

Our Lady of Great Power

Our Lady of Guadalupe

Our Lady of Guam

Our Lady of Guard

Our Lady of Guidance

Our Lady of Happy Assembly

Our Lady of Haut

Our Lady of Helbron

Our Lady of Highest Grace

Our Lady of Hildesheim

Our Lady of Ireland

Our Lady of Justinienne

Our Lady of Kazan

Our Lady of Kieff

Our Lady of Kiev

Our Lady of Knock

Our Lady of Kuehn

Our Lady of La Carolle

Our Lady of La Chapelle

Our Lady of La Guarde

Our Lady of La Rochette

Our Lady of La Salette

Our Lady of Lac Bouchet

Our Lady of Las Lajas

Our Lady of Last Agony

Our Lady of Laon

Our Lady of Lavang

Our Lady of Liesse

Our Lady of Life

Our Lady of Light

Our Lady of Ligny

Our Lady of Loreto

Our Lady of Lourdes

Our Lady of Louvain

Our Lady of Lyons

Our Lady of Mantua

Our Lady of Marienthal

Our Lady of Marseilles

Our Lady of Matarieh

Our Lady of Meliapore

Our Lady of Milan

Our Lady of Miracles

Our Lady of Miracles Brescia

Our Lady of Miracles Paris

Our Lady of Miracles Rome

Our Lady of Molanus

Our Lady of Molene

Our Lady of Mondevi

Our Lady of Moreneta

Our Lady of Mount Carmel

Our Lady of Monte-Senario

Our Lady of Montserrat

Our Lady of Montevergine

Our Lady of Moustier

Our Lady of Moyen Point

Our Lady of Myan

Our Lady of Nanteuil

Our Lady of Naples

Our Lady of Narni

Our Lady of Naval

Our Lady of Nazareth

Our Lady of New

Our Lady of Oegnies

Our Lady of Oropa

Our Lady of Oviedo

Our Lady of Paris

Our Lady of Peace

Our Lady of Pellevoisin

Our Lady of Perpetual Help

Our Lady of Pignerol

Our Lady of Pompeii

Our Lady of Pontmain

Our Lady of Pontoise

Our Lady of Port Louis

Our Lady of Power

Our Lady of Premontre

Our Lady of Prompt Succor

Our Lady of Abundance or Prosperity

Our Lady of Pucha

Our Lady of Puig

Our Lady of Puy

Our Lady of Quito

Our Lady of Ransom

Our Lady of Ratisbon

Our Lady of Rennes

Our Lady of Rheims

Our Lady of Rocamadour

Our Lady of Rocks

Our Lady of Rossano

Our Lady of Rouen

Our Lady of Safety

Our Lady of Saideneida

Our Lady of Saint Acheul

Our Lady of St Fort Chartres

Our Lady of Saint John

Our Lady of Savigny

Our Lady of Sasopoli

Our Lady of Saussaie

Our Lady of Schiedam

Our Lady of Schier

Our Lady of Scutari

Our Lady of Seez

Our Lady of Sichem

Our Lady of Sion

Our Lady of Smelcem

Our Lady of Sorrows

Our Lady of Soissons

Our Lady of Speech

Our Lady of Spire

Our Lady of Succor

Our Lady of Tables

Our Lady of Talan

Our Lady of Tears

Our Lady of Tears, Spoleto

Our Lady of Terouenne

Our Lady of the Armed Forces

Our Lady of the Assumption

Our Lady of the Bells

Our Lady of the Bush

Our Lady of the Candles

Our Lady of the Cloister

Our Lady of the Conception

Our Lady of the Conception, Flanders

Our Lady of the Divine Shepherd

Our Lady of the Don

Our Lady of the Doves

Our Lady of the Empress

Our Lady of the Fields

Our Lady of the Flowering Thorn

Our Lady of the Forest

Our Lady of the Forests

Our Lady of the Founders

Our Lady of the Fountain

Our Lady of the Fountain, Constantinople

Our Lady of the Grotto Lamego

Our Lady of the Hermits

Our Lady of the Hill

Our Lady of the Holy Chapel

Our Lady of the Holy Cross

Our Lady of the Jesuit College

Our Lady of the Lily

Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal

Our Lady of the Mountains

Our Lady of the Palm

Our Lady of the Pillar

Our Lady of the Place

Our Lady of the Pond

Our Lady of the Portuguese

Our Lady of the Rock

Our Lady of the Rosary

Our Lady of the Sacred Heart

Our Lady of the Silver Foot

Our Lady of the Slain

Our Lady of the Snows

Our Lady of the Star

Our Lady of the Star, Portugal

Our Lady of the Taper

Our Lady of the Thorn

Our Lady of the Tower

Our Lady of the Underground

Our Lady of the Valley

Our Lady of the Vault

Our Lady of the Vine

Our Lady of the Way

Our Lady of the Woods

Our Lady of Tongres

Our Lady of Tortosa

Our Lady of Trapani

Our Lady of Treves

Our Lady of Trut

Our Lady of Valvenere

Our Lady of Vaussivieres

Our Lady of Verdun

Our Lady of Victories

Our Lady of Victory

Our Lady of Victory, Spain

Our Lady of Victory, Senlis

Our Lady of Victory, Tourney

Our Lady of Victory, Valois

Our Lady of Virtues

Our Lady of Vivonne

Our Lady of Vladimir

Our Lady of Walsingham

Our Lady of Zapopan

Our Lady of Zell

Our Lady the Helper

Our Lady Refuge of Sinners

Our Lady, Star of the Sea

Our Lady Queen of Peace

Tabernacle of the Lord

Temple of the Most Holy Trinity

Treasure House of God's Graces

Queen of Angels

Queen of Heaven

Queen of Patriarchs

Queen of Prophets

Queen of Apostles

Queen of Martyrs

Queen of Confessors

Queen of Virgins

Queen of All Saints

Queen Conceived Without Original Sin

Queen of the Most Holy Rosary

Queen of Peace

Refuge of Sinners

Seat of Wisdom

Singular Vessel of Devotion

Spiritual Vessel

Mary, Spouse of the Holy Spirit

Star of the Sea

Tower of David

Tower of Ivory

Vessel of Honor

Virgen de la Antigua

Virgin of the Battles

Virgin of the Kings

Virgin Most Prudent

Virgin Most Venerable

Virgin Most Renowned

Virgin Most Powerful

Virgin Most Merciful

Virgin Most Faithful

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All worthy fkr the literal sinless ever virgin Mother of God

Man the hubris of some people led astray with even the guy that invented the P's religion said same.

Imagine thinking less of Mary than Gabriel did. Yikes.

Lots of whistlers past the graveyard round here.

I posted the video yesterday or so. Summed it up well.

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Prots don't think less of Mary than Gabriel. Gabriel certainly didn't elevate her to the heights that RC's do. It's got all the signs of idolatry, and clearly not found in the Bible and not in the early church.

The Mary Queen of Heaven mythos evolved late and relies heavily upon new revelations. Such as replacing praying the Psalms with praying the Rosary and Hail Mary's.

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If course Gabriel didn't. He went to Mary as the only woman in the history of humanity to
Give birth to God. The greatest woman that ever lived. Surely Gabriel just thought of her as any other woman like say your mom.

Pffffffffffft lol. Sure.

Its truly so absurd how twisted up the Ps get on this. And shows clearly theyve read little to nothing of the early church.

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Can you give me another instance where God chose the best, most worthy, candidate for a job?
I can yhink of many that weren't worthy: Jacob, Moses, David, Gideon just to name a few.

Why do you suppose, in this one instance, God chose the worthy person? Was she worthy and, if so, on what do you base your opinion?

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Is this a serious question? Did any one of them birth God? Hard to even discuss this with Ps that have such weak flawed logic of a newly invented religion with hardened hearts

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You'll be a great ex-wife one day considering the way you struggle with emotional argument vs discussion.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ARBear13 gave a good answer, that Mary is the first and greatest evangelist. Her role as co-mediatrix and co-redeemer, if one chooses to use those terms, doesn't diminish Christ but points the way to him.

The idea is similar to what Paul says in Colossians 1:24 -- that he is grateful for his sufferings because they help complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of course we know that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for our salvation. All that's lacking is evangelizing, which is what Paul refers to.

To that I would only add that Mary's role as evangelist didn't end with Christ's death and resurrection. The Church teaches that it continues until the end of time:

Quote:

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This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. (Lumen Gentium 62)

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ArBear didn't give a good answer. He didn't answer me at all. He completely dodged the point, just as you are doing.

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"All Christians can help 'save' others in a subordinate sense through evangelism by directing people to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 9:22. The Catholic Church believes that Mother Mary is the best possible evangelist because she loved Jesus more than anyone else, so she can bring people to salvation through her evangelical witness. That is the sense in which the word 'salvation' is used in all the scenarios you quoted."

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Seriously- what's the matter with you Roman Catholics? Are you honestly saying that because all Christians can help save others, that it means "none can attain salvation except through that Christian", that "none goes to Jesus except through that Christian", that the Christian is the "gate of heaven", that sinners receive pardon "by that Christian's intercession alone", that the Christian is the "road we must travel to get to God", and that "we obtain EVERY hope, grace and ALL SALVATION through that Christian"??

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No, Mary is unique in that way. As Christ's mother, she alone is the gate through which salvation came into the world.

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Jesus - "I AM THE GATE" (John 10:9)

Your blind spot to Marian idolatry is absolutely astounding and perplexing. You can't even see it as you're doing it.

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"It was thus that Christ died as a ransom, paid once for all, on behalf of our sins, he the innocent for us the guilty, so as to present us in God's sight." (1 Peter 3:18)

"Even as I write, I am glad of my sufferings on your behalf, as, in this mortal frame of mine, I help to pay off the debt which the afflictions of Christ still leave to be paid, for the sake of his body, the Church." (Colossians 1:24)

Which one is right, and which one is the heretic?

You will never find satisfactory answers to your questions by proof-texting. You must understand that words have different meanings in different contexts.

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It wasn't "proof-texting". You called Mary the gate, when Jesus' direct and clear, unambiguous words was that HE is the gate. You're attempting to squirm out of the fact that you demonstrated first hand the kind of Marian idolatry that plagues your church.

There is nothing Paul is saying that is giving him the exclusive honor that only belongs to Jesus. There is only ONE gate to heaven, "THE" gate. And Jesus says he is it. Roman Catholics like yourself give that honor to Mary. And whatever it is, be it extreme ignorance, dishonesty, blindness, satanic brainwashing, even plain old stupidity... something is blinding you to your idolatry.

And never mind that you only answered to the "gate" aspect of my question, and conspicuously avoided answering to the "salvation being ONLY through Mary" part. Your sophistry isn't going to work.

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Hopefully we can agree that Jesus is not an actual gate. Metaphors can be used in different ways for different things. When we say Mary was the gate by which salvation entered the world, we simply mean that through her Christ became incarnate.

Paul may not be giving himself exclusive honor, but he is taking honor that belongs exclusively to Jesus -- at least by your logic. That's why you can't just pick out words and phrases to prove a point. You need to understand what is meant in context.

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Sir, just stop rationalizing. JESUS called HIMSELF the gate to heaven. Giving birth to Jesus in no way makes one the gate to heaven. READ John 10:9 -

"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved." - John 10:9

WHY would you even dare to even suggest that someone else can be said to be the "gate to heaven"? The fact that you are okay with Mary being given that distinction the same as Jesus, is only demonstrating that the OP's original claim (that RC's don't worship Mary) just isn't true.

No, Paul is not taking any honor away from Jesus. He's saying that his suffering was required as a continuation of Jesus' sufferings, because he had to spread the gospel which would require suffering. Jesus told the apostles they would have to share in his suffering. He never told them they would be "gates to heaven" for doing so. Paul would never have said that he "suffered to take away people's sins", and call himself the "Lamb of God".

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ARBear13 gave a good answer, that Mary is the first and greatest evangelist. Her role as co-mediatrix and co-redeemer, if one chooses to use those terms, doesn't diminish Christ but points the way to him.

The idea is similar to what Paul says in Colossians 1:24 -- that he is grateful for his sufferings because they help complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of course we know that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for our salvation. All that's lacking is evangelizing, which is what Paul refers to.

To that I would only add that Mary's role as evangelist didn't end with Christ's death and resurrection. The Church teaches that it continues until the end of time:

Quote:

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This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. (Lumen Gentium 62)

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ArBear didn't give a good answer. He didn't answer me at all. He completely dodged the point, just as you are doing.

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"All Christians can help 'save' others in a subordinate sense through evangelism by directing people to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 9:22. The Catholic Church believes that Mother Mary is the best possible evangelist because she loved Jesus more than anyone else, so she can bring people to salvation through her evangelical witness. That is the sense in which the word 'salvation' is used in all the scenarios you quoted."

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is most of what we "know" about Mary by biblical, traditional or, from some other source.

Has the story, heierarchy, status of Mary risen over time as myths rise to ver time or, has it remained consistent since the resurrection?
Sources?

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I'm not sure how much of what we're discussing is "known" in the sense of being established dogma. Someone like Coke Bear might have a better answer for that. Catholics have certain core beliefs about Mary, but I think some of what we're talking about could be considered opinion, archaism, poetry, or exaggeration. That's why the Church seems to be cautioning against the use of language that's easily misunderstood.

Fre3dombear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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OsoCoreyell said:

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I want to know by what authority Catholics think it is sound theology to pray to Mary.

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I'm not Roman Catholic but this explanation may help.

Intercessory prayer isn't praying to a person. It is a prayer request that others pray to God for us.

The Biblical support for it is found in these verse:

James 5:16 - Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working."

John 11:26 - "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (It's a modern heresy that Christians die. Historically, the passing of the Christian has been thought of as the falling asleep of their body in the Lord to await a bodily resurrection. This is why Christians bury their dead, and don't cremate them.)

Hebrews 12:1 - "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." (We are surrounded by this great cloud today, not at some point when we get to heaven).

Revelation 8:3-4 "Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand."

The bolded portion of the text is the actual technical mechanism by which God hears your prayer, by the way.

But who gave this angel with the golden censer your prayer to offer to God? Revelation answers that too.

Revelation 5:8 "Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

As you can see, making prayer requests of other Christians is not limited to those in your Sunday School Class, Church, City, State, Country, or Generation.

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There is NOTHING in Scripture that clearly and explicitly instructs us to pray to departed saints or Mary, or tells us that they even have the ability to receive prayers to begin with. There is no instance whatsoever anywhere in the Old or New Testament of anyone praying to a departed believer for any kind of intercession. None. There exists NO teaching from Jesus or his apostles that we can and should pray to Mary and the saints.

I just don't understand how a church can build a system of faith, worship, and practice on something like praying to Mary or the saints, when the basis of such a practice can only be derived by reading your assumptions into Scripture and drawing non sequitur inferences like you did in order to justify something that really isn't there. Especially since there is no real reason to do it. We have direct access to God and Jesus, and we are explicitly instructed by Jesus himself to go directly to them. This is the clear, unambiguous teaching of Scripture.

The prayers being in "bowls of incense" does not necessarily indicate that those prayers were directed to the saints or Mary. And there is no reason whatsoever to believe that this is the "actual mechanism" by which prayers go up to God. All this is pure eisegesis. And after all, the practice has no real benefit - what does a believer lose if they don't pray to Mary of the saints? On the other hand, if you DO pray to them, you risk committing idolatry and angering God. The risk/reward is way too high for something finding its basis only in haphazard eisegesis. Praying to Mary and the saints had its origins in pagan Rome. In order to make the pagans convert to Christianity, they were allowed to continue praying to their multiple gods, but they just renamed those gods after Christian figures, like Mary and the saints. Those of you who engage in this practice REALLY need to understand this history.

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There is reason the curtain that partitioned the Holy of Holies tore from top to bottom.

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Tradition is Mary sewed that curtain. Now Ps will say they dont do tradition because they sola scriptura yet the scriptura tells them that tradition is part of it.

Ps even invented a completely separate Bible that didnt exist prior to Martin Luther and somehow explain it away as its the scriptura they want to believe just like they completely ignore verses that nuke their beliefs

Even with all that Ps and Catholics believe statistically most of the same things. Its just the Ps toss aside some of the most critical ones

And of course Ps wouldnt even have a Bible to sola had the Catholics not created it. Bizarre place to find ones self.

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A tradition from the gospel of James, really?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Also, are you buying ArBear's argument that those quotes were "out of context"? You let him off the hook too easily. I have been trying to address this with him myself, but I fear he has joined the long list of people who don't like my questions so they ignore me. I guess you're gonna have to get that out of him, if you care to.

Is there really a context in which such statements could EVER be acceptable to someone who professes to love and only worship God, as they say they do? Denying that one worships Mary, but then balking at disavowing clear statements of Mary worship somehow just doesn't make a person seem like they're on the level.

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I married into a Catholic family and have been to many, many Catholic masses. Some of the family seem to place Mary higher than others but I've yet to hear any of them say salvation comes through Mary or, anything remotely close to it.
I've sat through many liturgies and have yet to hear one say anything that links Mary to salvation. On the other hand, I've also sat through a handful of rosaries after a death and hear nothing about Christ expect from family members in casual conversation before and after. Never have I heard the person conducting (is that the right word) the rosary speak of Christ salvation.

The last rosary I went to , all of the grand kids had t-shirts with their favorite or most appropriate Bible verse on it-verses they had learned in family Bible studies with their grandparents.

As for the quotes, I'd love to have a link to the English translations of each document so I could read them for myself. I fully expect Prots to attack them and RCs to support them or shy away from any defense.

It may be that ARBear isn't shying away from answering but collecting sources . We'll see.

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Ps here at least tend to project onto the Catholics what they think Catholicism believes (usually based on what a preacher told them and from what ive seen no actual study of the church Jesus left from Peter the rock) and remain largely uneducated, likely to their own detriment, of what it is. Then things start to get lersonal etc and derail the discussion.

From the quotes it appears one at least believes Mary had no free will. They completely ignore Luke 1:38 just like John 6:53 and 100+ other versus I've posted and discussed at length on several threads.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Also, are you buying ArBear's argument that those quotes were "out of context"? You let him off the hook too easily. I have been trying to address this with him myself, but I fear he has joined the long list of people who don't like my questions so they ignore me. I guess you're gonna have to get that out of him, if you care to.

Is there really a context in which such statements could EVER be acceptable to someone who professes to love and only worship God, as they say they do? Denying that one worships Mary, but then balking at disavowing clear statements of Mary worship somehow just doesn't make a person seem like they're on the level.

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I married into a Catholic family and have been to many, many Catholic masses. Some of the family seem to place Mary higher than others but I've yet to hear any of them say salvation comes through Mary or, anything remotely close to it.
I've sat through many liturgies and have yet to hear one say anything that links Mary to salvation. On the other hand, I've also sat through a handful of rosaries after a death and hear nothing about Christ expect from family members in casual conversation before and after. Never have I heard the person conducting (is that the right word) the rosary speak of Christ salvation.

The last rosary I went to , all of the grand kids had t-shirts with their favorite or most appropriate Bible verse on it-verses they had learned in family Bible studies with their grandparents.

As for the quotes, I'd love to have a link to the English translations of each document so I could read them for myself. I fully expect Prots to attack them and RCs to support them or shy away from any defense.

It may be that ARBear isn't shying away from answering but collecting sources . We'll see.

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Individual Roman Catholics here and there may not credit Mary with salvation... but the question is not about them, nor about what they show outwardly, but about specific statements made by their leaders. Are they able to disavow those obviously heretical and idolatrous beliefs? Because if not, then something is really, really wrong, and their repeated denial that they worship Mary starts to look phony.

Can you really doubt the translation of those quotes? Roman Catholicism is suffused with this kind of excessive and idolatrous glorification of Mary. I'm sure you've read the quotes I've given in other threads from The Glories of Mary, or the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary (a book of psalms, where the author used the Psalms from the Old Testament and inserted MARY in place of God. Yes, you heard that right. If that in of itself does not scream idolatry, then idolatry has no meaning whatsoever. If one can't recognize the idolatry in that, then one never will.)

Pope John Paul II's personal motto was "Totus tuum Maria" which (accurately) translated means "I am all yours, Mary". It comes from a Marian prayer in the 1712 book True Devotion to Mary by Louis de Montfort. The prayer goes:

"Totus tuus ego sum, et omnia mea tua sunt. Accipio te in mea omnia. Praebe mihi cor tuum, Maria."
("I belong entirely to you, and all that I have is yours. I take you for my all. O Mary, give me your heart")


He belongs entirely to Mary?? Mary is his all??

How does all this not make plainly obvious, about who Mary is in Roman Catholicism? And mind you, we're not even including their bowing and praying to Mary's image IN CHURCH, singing hymns to her IN CHURCH, holding hundreds of festivals for her, calling her "THE ALL HOLY ONE" in their catechism, etc. There's gotta be a point where the oft-repeated, "you're taking it out of context" go-to argument from Roman Catholics hunkering down on the defensive starts to face an enormous and ever-expanding wall of implausibility.... isn't there? Why do they think we'll keep buying it? The level of gaslighting is truly perplexing.

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I understand what you are saying regarding RC leaders and their written statements regarding Mary. I just don't see the trickledown coming out in the liturgy.

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But again, the question is not whether they are personally engaging in or expressing those sentiments - the question is whether these Catholics, who insist they aren't worshiping Mary, are willing/able to disavow those statements? If they are not, then it doesn't do much to lend credence to their claim. No one who truly loves and worships God alone would ever find those statements even remotely acceptable. If they lack discernment in that area, then there's something really, really wrong.

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Are all Christian's theologically trained?

Are we saved corporately or as individuals?

I don't deal with the Catholic Church. I deal with Catholics.

I don't deal with prosperity churches, Hillsong, Bethel etc… I deal with individuals.

You stick with the corporate battles of church vs church. I'll stick with individuals. We each have our roles.

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I get that you're defensive for the sake of your kin. But this isn't about theological training or what they belief individually and personally. But the truth remains that if they can't recognize the problem in crediting any other person other than Jesus for their salvation, you know, the central tenet of the Christian faith, then there's something really wrong with their Christianity. Is this even debatable?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Also, are you buying ArBear's argument that those quotes were "out of context"? You let him off the hook too easily. I have been trying to address this with him myself, but I fear he has joined the long list of people who don't like my questions so they ignore me. I guess you're gonna have to get that out of him, if you care to.

Is there really a context in which such statements could EVER be acceptable to someone who professes to love and only worship God, as they say they do? Denying that one worships Mary, but then balking at disavowing clear statements of Mary worship somehow just doesn't make a person seem like they're on the level.

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I married into a Catholic family and have been to many, many Catholic masses. Some of the family seem to place Mary higher than others but I've yet to hear any of them say salvation comes through Mary or, anything remotely close to it.
I've sat through many liturgies and have yet to hear one say anything that links Mary to salvation. On the other hand, I've also sat through a handful of rosaries after a death and hear nothing about Christ expect from family members in casual conversation before and after. Never have I heard the person conducting (is that the right word) the rosary speak of Christ salvation.

The last rosary I went to , all of the grand kids had t-shirts with their favorite or most appropriate Bible verse on it-verses they had learned in family Bible studies with their grandparents.

As for the quotes, I'd love to have a link to the English translations of each document so I could read them for myself. I fully expect Prots to attack them and RCs to support them or shy away from any defense.

It may be that ARBear isn't shying away from answering but collecting sources . We'll see.

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Individual Roman Catholics here and there may not credit Mary with salvation... but the question is not about them, nor about what they show outwardly, but about specific statements made by their leaders. Are they able to disavow those obviously heretical and idolatrous beliefs? Because if not, then something is really, really wrong, and their repeated denial that they worship Mary starts to look phony.

Can you really doubt the translation of those quotes? Roman Catholicism is suffused with this kind of excessive and idolatrous glorification of Mary. I'm sure you've read the quotes I've given in other threads from The Glories of Mary, or the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary (a book of psalms, where the author used the Psalms from the Old Testament and inserted MARY in place of God. Yes, you heard that right. If that in of itself does not scream idolatry, then idolatry has no meaning whatsoever. If one can't recognize the idolatry in that, then one never will.)

Pope John Paul II's personal motto was "Totus tuum Maria" which (accurately) translated means "I am all yours, Mary". It comes from a Marian prayer in the 1712 book True Devotion to Mary by Louis de Montfort. The prayer goes:

"Totus tuus ego sum, et omnia mea tua sunt. Accipio te in mea omnia. Praebe mihi cor tuum, Maria."
("I belong entirely to you, and all that I have is yours. I take you for my all. O Mary, give me your heart")


He belongs entirely to Mary?? Mary is his all??

How does all this not make plainly obvious, about who Mary is in Roman Catholicism? And mind you, we're not even including their bowing and praying to Mary's image IN CHURCH, singing hymns to her IN CHURCH, holding hundreds of festivals for her, calling her "THE ALL HOLY ONE" in their catechism, etc. There's gotta be a point where the oft-repeated, "you're taking it out of context" go-to argument from Roman Catholics hunkering down on the defensive starts to face an enormous and ever-expanding wall of implausibility.... isn't there? Why do they think we'll keep buying it? The level of gaslighting is truly perplexing.

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I understand what you are saying regarding RC leaders and their written statements regarding Mary. I just don't see the trickledown coming out in the liturgy.

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Theres no statement from the Catholic church suggesting this. There are 4 dogmas talked of here ad nauseum. None of them say that.

Fre3dombear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Also, are you buying ArBear's argument that those quotes were "out of context"? You let him off the hook too easily. I have been trying to address this with him myself, but I fear he has joined the long list of people who don't like my questions so they ignore me. I guess you're gonna have to get that out of him, if you care to.

Is there really a context in which such statements could EVER be acceptable to someone who professes to love and only worship God, as they say they do? Denying that one worships Mary, but then balking at disavowing clear statements of Mary worship somehow just doesn't make a person seem like they're on the level.

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I married into a Catholic family and have been to many, many Catholic masses. Some of the family seem to place Mary higher than others but I've yet to hear any of them say salvation comes through Mary or, anything remotely close to it.
I've sat through many liturgies and have yet to hear one say anything that links Mary to salvation. On the other hand, I've also sat through a handful of rosaries after a death and hear nothing about Christ expect from family members in casual conversation before and after. Never have I heard the person conducting (is that the right word) the rosary speak of Christ salvation.

The last rosary I went to , all of the grand kids had t-shirts with their favorite or most appropriate Bible verse on it-verses they had learned in family Bible studies with their grandparents.

As for the quotes, I'd love to have a link to the English translations of each document so I could read them for myself. I fully expect Prots to attack them and RCs to support them or shy away from any defense.

It may be that ARBear isn't shying away from answering but collecting sources . We'll see.

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Ps here at least tend to project onto the Catholics what they think Catholicism believes (usually based on what a preacher told them and from what ive seen no actual study of the church Jesus left from Peter the rock) and remain largely uneducated, likely to their own detriment, of what it is. Then things start to get lersonal etc and derail the discussion.

From the quotes it appears one at least believes Mary had no free will. They completely ignore Luke 1:38 just like John 6:53 and 100+ other versus I've posted and discussed at length on several threads.

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and you don't see yourself projecting your own views onto what Ps may think of Luther.

Some of your greatest rants are attacking Luther and what you suppose other's views of Luther to be.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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ARbear13 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ARbear13 said:

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Today, the Vatican officially rejected the doctrinal titles of Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They did this specifically to avoid confusion regarding Mary's role in God's redemptive plan for humanity.

The term was originally proposed centuries ago by well-meaning, theologically-minded Catholics who wanted to emphasize that Mary did participate (in a subordinate way) in God's plan for human salvation by birthing and raising Jesus, the One Redeemer and Mediator. However, Pope Leo XIV and the Catholic hierarchy concluded that these titles are misleading in modern languages and make it seem like Mother Mary has her own, independent participation in our salvation, which is obviously false and heretical. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer. Everyone else, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, only participates in this process as far as we point others toward Jesus as Savior.

Hopefully actions like these will help my Protestant friends on this site realize that we Catholics DO NOT worship Mother Mary or anything other than the Triune God. We never did.

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Many Catholics would argue with this stand.
But then, many Protestants falsely believe they will go to heaven because they are good people.

The lack of understanding people have in "their own faith" is amazing at times.

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If you made a poll asking Catholics "Do you worship Mary as a goddess?" every single one of them that had ever darkened the door of a church and still claimed Catholicism would say "No, of course not."

Catholics are Christians. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior. There is no other name by which men can be saved.

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Its good for them to be clear on this in words, but actions matter as much if not more. So
Of course they would answer no, but then they'd start their hail mary prayer.
Catholics have invented a mythos around Mary, being sinless, being a mediator, being an active spirit in this world, having a greater part in salvation in practice than the OP lets on.
It is effectively ancestor worship, or it resembles it in every way.
Catholics have taken veneration to the utmost of worship. Effectively conveying to her all the attributes of Christ, but yeah, sure they don't worship her. They do in every way except to label her the Christ. She is worthy of veneration, but to Catholics it is something more than veneration based on practice and actions.

Having said that I love and respect my devout Catholic friends, they can have bad theology in part and still find their way to Jesus. Same goes with prots. Sadly for both, many will not be with the Lord because their faith in Christ was merely words deep and not true belief.

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Sounds like someone that would study Our Lady of Guadalupeand say the devil did it. Someone on here said that lol

Im sure they believe the same about the shroud of turin.

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There are strong arguments on both sides regarding the shroud of Turin.

The only thing that can be said about the shroud that is 100% factual is, it's the center of a lot of Christian argument and often times a big distraction from Christ's saving grace.

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Only if one lets it be. Its brought more to Christ than turned them away no doubt.

I would disagree there are "string arguments on both sides". It is the most studied artifact in human history. Ive personally spent years reading and studying on it.
The evidence supporting it isnt the burial cloth of Christ are extremely weak

Same for Our Lady of Guadalupe when satan (/s) used it to turn an entire continent to Jesus's Catholic church in just a few short years and to this day.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Nah, not worship, really guys, not worship...

She is the mother of God, the queen of heaven, spouse of the holy spirit, heavens gate, born and lived without sin, must be a perpetual virgin to continue the myth of being sinless, etc.

For the record, I truly respect and honor Mary, but she would figuratively be rolling in her grave based on how high she has been elevated, to the point of idolatry by the catholic church.

Just some of the titles used by catholics for Mary follow.

Gate of Heaven

Ark of the Covenant

Cause of Our Joy

Comforter of the Afflicted

Co-Redemptrix

Destroyer of Heresy

Gate of Heaven

Joy of the Just

Health of the Sick

Help of Christians

Holy Mary

Holy Mother of God

Holy Virgin of Virgins

House of Gold

The Immaculate Heart

Mirror of Justice

Mother of the Poor

Morning Star

Mother Inviolate

Mother Most Admirable

Mother Most Amiable

Mother Most Chaste

Mother Most Pure

Mother of Christ

Mother of Divine Grace

Mother of Good Counsel

Mother of Orphans

Mother of Our Creator

Mother of Our Redeemer

Mother of Perpetual Help

Mother of Sorrows

Mother of the Son

Mother Thrice Admirable

Mother Undefiled

Mystical Rose

Our Lady de Gray

Our Lady de la Breche

Our Lady della Croce

Our Lady de la Treille

Our Lady of Confidence

Our Lady of Akita

Our Lady of Abundance

Our Lady of Acheropita

Our Lady of Africa

Our Lady of Aix-la-Chapelle

Our Lady of Alba Royale

Our Lady of Alexandria

Our Lady of All Help

Our Lady of Almudena

Our Lady of Amiens

Our Lady of Angels

Our Lady of Angels Toulouse

Our Lady of Apareceda

Our Lady of Apparitions

Our Lady of Arabida

Our Lady of Ardents

Our Lady of Ardilliers

Our Lady of Argenteuil

Our Lady of Arras

Our Lady of Atocha

Our Lady of Banneux

Our Lady of Bavaria

Our Lady of Beaumont

Our Lady of Beauraing

Our Lady of Belle Fontaine

Our Lady of Benoite-Vaux

Our Lady of Bessiere

Our Lady of Betharam

Our Lady of Bethlehem

Our Lady of Bolougne

Our Lady of Bonaria

Our Lady of Bonport

Our Lady of Bourbourg

Our Lady of Bows

Our Lady of Bruges

Our Lady of Buglose

Our Lady of Buch

Our Lady of Calais

Our Lady of Calevourt

Our Lady of Cambray

Our Lady of Cambron

Our Lady of Campitelli

Our Lady of Cana

Our Lady of Caravaggio

Our Lady of Carquere

Our Lady of Castelbruedo

Our Lady of Charity

Our Lady of Chartres

Our Lady of Chatillion

Our Lady of Chievres

Our Lady Of Citeaux

Our Lady of Clairvaux

Our Lady of Clemency

Our Lady of Clermont

Our Lady of Clery

Our Lady of Clos-Evrard

Our Lady of Compassion

Our Lady of Conquest

Our Lady of Consolation

Our Lady of Constantinople

Our Lady of Copacabana

Our Lady of Coutances

Our Lady of Covadonga

Our Lady of Craganor

Our Lady of Czestochowa

Our Lady D'Iron

Our Lady of Damietta

Our Lady of Deliverance

Our Lady of Didinia

Our Lady of Dijon

Our Lady of Divine Providence

Our Lady of Dordrecht

Our Lady of Edessa

Our Lady of Egypt

Our Lady of Einsiendeln

Our Lady of Emminont

Our Lady of Esquernes

Our Lady of Exile

Our Lady of Faith

Our Lady of Fatima

Our Lady of Fire

Our Lady of Flines

Our Lady of Foi

Our Lady of Fourviere

Our Lady of Foy

Our Lady of France

Our Lady of Genazzano

Our Lady of Genesta

Our Lady of Gifts

Our Lady of Good Counsel

Our Lady of Good Deliverance

Our Lady of Good Haven

Our Lady of Good Health

Our Lady of Good Help

Our Lady of Good News

Our Lady of Good Remedies

Our Lady of Good Success

Our Lady of Good Tidings

Our Lady of Good Tidings, Lempdes

Our Lady of Grace

Our Lady of Grace, Normandy

Our Lady of Grace, Paris

Our Lady of Great Power

Our Lady of Guadalupe

Our Lady of Guam

Our Lady of Guard

Our Lady of Guidance

Our Lady of Happy Assembly

Our Lady of Haut

Our Lady of Helbron

Our Lady of Highest Grace

Our Lady of Hildesheim

Our Lady of Ireland

Our Lady of Justinienne

Our Lady of Kazan

Our Lady of Kieff

Our Lady of Kiev

Our Lady of Knock

Our Lady of Kuehn

Our Lady of La Carolle

Our Lady of La Chapelle

Our Lady of La Guarde

Our Lady of La Rochette

Our Lady of La Salette

Our Lady of Lac Bouchet

Our Lady of Las Lajas

Our Lady of Last Agony

Our Lady of Laon

Our Lady of Lavang

Our Lady of Liesse

Our Lady of Life

Our Lady of Light

Our Lady of Ligny

Our Lady of Loreto

Our Lady of Lourdes

Our Lady of Louvain

Our Lady of Lyons

Our Lady of Mantua

Our Lady of Marienthal

Our Lady of Marseilles

Our Lady of Matarieh

Our Lady of Meliapore

Our Lady of Milan

Our Lady of Miracles

Our Lady of Miracles Brescia

Our Lady of Miracles Paris

Our Lady of Miracles Rome

Our Lady of Molanus

Our Lady of Molene

Our Lady of Mondevi

Our Lady of Moreneta

Our Lady of Mount Carmel

Our Lady of Monte-Senario

Our Lady of Montserrat

Our Lady of Montevergine

Our Lady of Moustier

Our Lady of Moyen Point

Our Lady of Myan

Our Lady of Nanteuil

Our Lady of Naples

Our Lady of Narni

Our Lady of Naval

Our Lady of Nazareth

Our Lady of New

Our Lady of Oegnies

Our Lady of Oropa

Our Lady of Oviedo

Our Lady of Paris

Our Lady of Peace

Our Lady of Pellevoisin

Our Lady of Perpetual Help

Our Lady of Pignerol

Our Lady of Pompeii

Our Lady of Pontmain

Our Lady of Pontoise

Our Lady of Port Louis

Our Lady of Power

Our Lady of Premontre

Our Lady of Prompt Succor

Our Lady of Abundance or Prosperity

Our Lady of Pucha

Our Lady of Puig

Our Lady of Puy

Our Lady of Quito

Our Lady of Ransom

Our Lady of Ratisbon

Our Lady of Rennes

Our Lady of Rheims

Our Lady of Rocamadour

Our Lady of Rocks

Our Lady of Rossano

Our Lady of Rouen

Our Lady of Safety

Our Lady of Saideneida

Our Lady of Saint Acheul

Our Lady of St Fort Chartres

Our Lady of Saint John

Our Lady of Savigny

Our Lady of Sasopoli

Our Lady of Saussaie

Our Lady of Schiedam

Our Lady of Schier

Our Lady of Scutari

Our Lady of Seez

Our Lady of Sichem

Our Lady of Sion

Our Lady of Smelcem

Our Lady of Sorrows

Our Lady of Soissons

Our Lady of Speech

Our Lady of Spire

Our Lady of Succor

Our Lady of Tables

Our Lady of Talan

Our Lady of Tears

Our Lady of Tears, Spoleto

Our Lady of Terouenne

Our Lady of the Armed Forces

Our Lady of the Assumption

Our Lady of the Bells

Our Lady of the Bush

Our Lady of the Candles

Our Lady of the Cloister

Our Lady of the Conception

Our Lady of the Conception, Flanders

Our Lady of the Divine Shepherd

Our Lady of the Don

Our Lady of the Doves

Our Lady of the Empress

Our Lady of the Fields

Our Lady of the Flowering Thorn

Our Lady of the Forest

Our Lady of the Forests

Our Lady of the Founders

Our Lady of the Fountain

Our Lady of the Fountain, Constantinople

Our Lady of the Grotto Lamego

Our Lady of the Hermits

Our Lady of the Hill

Our Lady of the Holy Chapel

Our Lady of the Holy Cross

Our Lady of the Jesuit College

Our Lady of the Lily

Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal

Our Lady of the Mountains

Our Lady of the Palm

Our Lady of the Pillar

Our Lady of the Place

Our Lady of the Pond

Our Lady of the Portuguese

Our Lady of the Rock

Our Lady of the Rosary

Our Lady of the Sacred Heart

Our Lady of the Silver Foot

Our Lady of the Slain

Our Lady of the Snows

Our Lady of the Star

Our Lady of the Star, Portugal

Our Lady of the Taper

Our Lady of the Thorn

Our Lady of the Tower

Our Lady of the Underground

Our Lady of the Valley

Our Lady of the Vault

Our Lady of the Vine

Our Lady of the Way

Our Lady of the Woods

Our Lady of Tongres

Our Lady of Tortosa

Our Lady of Trapani

Our Lady of Treves

Our Lady of Trut

Our Lady of Valvenere

Our Lady of Vaussivieres

Our Lady of Verdun

Our Lady of Victories

Our Lady of Victory

Our Lady of Victory, Spain

Our Lady of Victory, Senlis

Our Lady of Victory, Tourney

Our Lady of Victory, Valois

Our Lady of Virtues

Our Lady of Vivonne

Our Lady of Vladimir

Our Lady of Walsingham

Our Lady of Zapopan

Our Lady of Zell

Our Lady the Helper

Our Lady Refuge of Sinners

Our Lady, Star of the Sea

Our Lady Queen of Peace

Tabernacle of the Lord

Temple of the Most Holy Trinity

Treasure House of God's Graces

Queen of Angels

Queen of Heaven

Queen of Patriarchs

Queen of Prophets

Queen of Apostles

Queen of Martyrs

Queen of Confessors

Queen of Virgins

Queen of All Saints

Queen Conceived Without Original Sin

Queen of the Most Holy Rosary

Queen of Peace

Refuge of Sinners

Seat of Wisdom

Singular Vessel of Devotion

Spiritual Vessel

Mary, Spouse of the Holy Spirit

Star of the Sea

Tower of David

Tower of Ivory

Vessel of Honor

Virgen de la Antigua

Virgin of the Battles

Virgin of the Kings

Virgin Most Prudent

Virgin Most Venerable

Virgin Most Renowned

Virgin Most Powerful

Virgin Most Merciful

Virgin Most Faithful

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All worthy fkr the literal sinless ever virgin Mother of God

Man the hubris of some people led astray with even the guy that invented the P's religion said same.

Imagine thinking less of Mary than Gabriel did. Yikes.

Lots of whistlers past the graveyard round here.

I posted the video yesterday or so. Summed it up well.

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Prots don't think less of Mary than Gabriel. Gabriel certainly didn't elevate her to the heights that RC's do. It's got all the signs of idolatry, and clearly not found in the Bible and not in the early church.

The Mary Queen of Heaven mythos evolved late and relies heavily upon new revelations. Such as replacing praying the Psalms with praying the Rosary and Hail Mary's.

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If course Gabriel didn't. He went to Mary as the only woman in the history of humanity to
Give birth to God. The greatest woman that ever lived. Surely Gabriel just thought of her as any other woman like say your mom.

Pffffffffffft lol. Sure.

Its truly so absurd how twisted up the Ps get on this. And shows clearly theyve read little to nothing of the early church.

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Can you give me another instance where God chose the best, most worthy, candidate for a job?
I can yhink of many that weren't worthy: Jacob, Moses, David, Gideon just to name a few.

Why do you suppose, in this one instance, God chose the worthy person? Was she worthy and, if so, on what do you base your opinion?

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Is this a serious question? Did any one of them birth God? Hard to even discuss this with Ps that have such weak flawed logic of a newly invented religion with hardened hearts

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You'll be a great ex-wife one day considering the way you struggle with emotional argument vs discussion.

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Im not strugglijg at all. I asked factual questions. No emotion in any of those questions. Simple answers available to all who've read the Bible.

Do you have that experience with an ex wife youre projecting into the discussion?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ARBear13 gave a good answer, that Mary is the first and greatest evangelist. Her role as co-mediatrix and co-redeemer, if one chooses to use those terms, doesn't diminish Christ but points the way to him.

The idea is similar to what Paul says in Colossians 1:24 -- that he is grateful for his sufferings because they help complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of course we know that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for our salvation. All that's lacking is evangelizing, which is what Paul refers to.

To that I would only add that Mary's role as evangelist didn't end with Christ's death and resurrection. The Church teaches that it continues until the end of time:

Quote:

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This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. (Lumen Gentium 62)

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ArBear didn't give a good answer. He didn't answer me at all. He completely dodged the point, just as you are doing.

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"All Christians can help 'save' others in a subordinate sense through evangelism by directing people to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 9:22. The Catholic Church believes that Mother Mary is the best possible evangelist because she loved Jesus more than anyone else, so she can bring people to salvation through her evangelical witness. That is the sense in which the word 'salvation' is used in all the scenarios you quoted."

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Seriously- what's the matter with you Roman Catholics? Are you honestly saying that because all Christians can help save others, that it means "none can attain salvation except through that Christian", that "none goes to Jesus except through that Christian", that the Christian is the "gate of heaven", that sinners receive pardon "by that Christian's intercession alone", that the Christian is the "road we must travel to get to God", and that "we obtain EVERY hope, grace and ALL SALVATION through that Christian"??

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No, Mary is unique in that way. As Christ's mother, she alone is the gate through which salvation came into the world.

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Jesus - "I AM THE GATE" (John 10:9)

Your blind spot to Marian idolatry is absolutely astounding and perplexing. You can't even see it as you're doing it.

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"It was thus that Christ died as a ransom, paid once for all, on behalf of our sins, he the innocent for us the guilty, so as to present us in God's sight." (1 Peter 3:18)

"Even as I write, I am glad of my sufferings on your behalf, as, in this mortal frame of mine, I help to pay off the debt which the afflictions of Christ still leave to be paid, for the sake of his body, the Church." (Colossians 1:24)

Which one is right, and which one is the heretic?

You will never find satisfactory answers to your questions by proof-texting. You must understand that words have different meanings in different contexts.

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It wasn't "proof-texting". You called Mary the gate, when Jesus' direct and clear, unambiguous words was that HE is the gate. You're attempting to squirm out of the fact that you demonstrated first hand the kind of Marian idolatry that plagues your church.

There is nothing Paul is saying that is giving him the exclusive honor that only belongs to Jesus. There is only ONE gate to heaven, "THE" gate. And Jesus says he is it. Roman Catholics like yourself give that honor to Mary. And whatever it is, be it extreme ignorance, dishonesty, blindness, satanic brainwashing, even plain old stupidity... something is blinding you to your idolatry.

And never mind that you only answered to the "gate" aspect of my question, and conspicuously avoided answering to the "salvation being ONLY through Mary" part. Your sophistry isn't going to work.

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Hopefully we can agree that Jesus is not an actual gate. Metaphors can be used in different ways for different things. When we say Mary was the gate by which salvation entered the world, we simply mean that through her Christ became incarnate.

Paul may not be giving himself exclusive honor, but he is taking honor that belongs exclusively to Jesus -- at least by your logic. That's why you can't just pick out words and phrases to prove a point. You need to understand what is meant in context.

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No, Paul is not taking any honor away from Jesus. He's saying that his suffering was required as a continuation of Jesus' sufferings, because he had to spread the gospel which would require suffering.

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Correct. And likewise, what these theologians are saying is that Mary's mediation and intercession are required as a continuation of Christ's.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Also, are you buying ArBear's argument that those quotes were "out of context"? You let him off the hook too easily. I have been trying to address this with him myself, but I fear he has joined the long list of people who don't like my questions so they ignore me. I guess you're gonna have to get that out of him, if you care to.

Is there really a context in which such statements could EVER be acceptable to someone who professes to love and only worship God, as they say they do? Denying that one worships Mary, but then balking at disavowing clear statements of Mary worship somehow just doesn't make a person seem like they're on the level.

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I married into a Catholic family and have been to many, many Catholic masses. Some of the family seem to place Mary higher than others but I've yet to hear any of them say salvation comes through Mary or, anything remotely close to it.
I've sat through many liturgies and have yet to hear one say anything that links Mary to salvation. On the other hand, I've also sat through a handful of rosaries after a death and hear nothing about Christ expect from family members in casual conversation before and after. Never have I heard the person conducting (is that the right word) the rosary speak of Christ salvation.

The last rosary I went to , all of the grand kids had t-shirts with their favorite or most appropriate Bible verse on it-verses they had learned in family Bible studies with their grandparents.

As for the quotes, I'd love to have a link to the English translations of each document so I could read them for myself. I fully expect Prots to attack them and RCs to support them or shy away from any defense.

It may be that ARBear isn't shying away from answering but collecting sources . We'll see.

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Individual Roman Catholics here and there may not credit Mary with salvation... but the question is not about them, nor about what they show outwardly, but about specific statements made by their leaders. Are they able to disavow those obviously heretical and idolatrous beliefs? Because if not, then something is really, really wrong, and their repeated denial that they worship Mary starts to look phony.

Can you really doubt the translation of those quotes? Roman Catholicism is suffused with this kind of excessive and idolatrous glorification of Mary. I'm sure you've read the quotes I've given in other threads from The Glories of Mary, or the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary (a book of psalms, where the author used the Psalms from the Old Testament and inserted MARY in place of God. Yes, you heard that right. If that in of itself does not scream idolatry, then idolatry has no meaning whatsoever. If one can't recognize the idolatry in that, then one never will.)

Pope John Paul II's personal motto was "Totus tuum Maria" which (accurately) translated means "I am all yours, Mary". It comes from a Marian prayer in the 1712 book True Devotion to Mary by Louis de Montfort. The prayer goes:

"Totus tuus ego sum, et omnia mea tua sunt. Accipio te in mea omnia. Praebe mihi cor tuum, Maria."
("I belong entirely to you, and all that I have is yours. I take you for my all. O Mary, give me your heart")


He belongs entirely to Mary?? Mary is his all??

How does all this not make plainly obvious, about who Mary is in Roman Catholicism? And mind you, we're not even including their bowing and praying to Mary's image IN CHURCH, singing hymns to her IN CHURCH, holding hundreds of festivals for her, calling her "THE ALL HOLY ONE" in their catechism, etc. There's gotta be a point where the oft-repeated, "you're taking it out of context" go-to argument from Roman Catholics hunkering down on the defensive starts to face an enormous and ever-expanding wall of implausibility.... isn't there? Why do they think we'll keep buying it? The level of gaslighting is truly perplexing.

---

I understand what you are saying regarding RC leaders and their written statements regarding Mary. I just don't see the trickledown coming out in the liturgy.

---

But again, the question is not whether they are personally engaging in or expressing those sentiments - the question is whether these Catholics, who insist they aren't worshiping Mary, are willing/able to disavow those statements? If they are not, then it doesn't do much to lend credence to their claim. No one who truly loves and worships God alone would ever find those statements even remotely acceptable. If they lack discernment in that area, then there's something really, really wrong.

---

Are all Christian's theologically trained?

Are we saved corporately or as individuals?

I don't deal with the Catholic Church. I deal with Catholics.

I don't deal with prosperity churches, Hillsong, Bethel etc… I deal with individuals.

You stick with the corporate battles of church vs church. I'll stick with individuals. We each have our roles.

---

I get that you're defensive for the sake of your kin. But this isn't about theological training or what they belief individually and personally. But the truth remains that if they can't recognize the problem in crediting any other person other than Jesus for their salvation, you know, the central tenet of the Christian faith, then there's something really wrong with their Christianity. Is this even debatable?

---

"This isn't about…. But…"

Like I said , you handle the corporate side and I'll handle the individual side.

Mary is the new Ark. the new Eve.

Know mary know jesus

No mary no jesus

Simpol

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Also, are you buying ArBear's argument that those quotes were "out of context"? You let him off the hook too easily. I have been trying to address this with him myself, but I fear he has joined the long list of people who don't like my questions so they ignore me. I guess you're gonna have to get that out of him, if you care to.

Is there really a context in which such statements could EVER be acceptable to someone who professes to love and only worship God, as they say they do? Denying that one worships Mary, but then balking at disavowing clear statements of Mary worship somehow just doesn't make a person seem like they're on the level.

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I married into a Catholic family and have been to many, many Catholic masses. Some of the family seem to place Mary higher than others but I've yet to hear any of them say salvation comes through Mary or, anything remotely close to it.
I've sat through many liturgies and have yet to hear one say anything that links Mary to salvation. On the other hand, I've also sat through a handful of rosaries after a death and hear nothing about Christ expect from family members in casual conversation before and after. Never have I heard the person conducting (is that the right word) the rosary speak of Christ salvation.

The last rosary I went to , all of the grand kids had t-shirts with their favorite or most appropriate Bible verse on it-verses they had learned in family Bible studies with their grandparents.

As for the quotes, I'd love to have a link to the English translations of each document so I could read them for myself. I fully expect Prots to attack them and RCs to support them or shy away from any defense.

It may be that ARBear isn't shying away from answering but collecting sources . We'll see.

---

Individual Roman Catholics here and there may not credit Mary with salvation... but the question is not about them, nor about what they show outwardly, but about specific statements made by their leaders. Are they able to disavow those obviously heretical and idolatrous beliefs? Because if not, then something is really, really wrong, and their repeated denial that they worship Mary starts to look phony.

Can you really doubt the translation of those quotes? Roman Catholicism is suffused with this kind of excessive and idolatrous glorification of Mary. I'm sure you've read the quotes I've given in other threads from The Glories of Mary, or the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary (a book of psalms, where the author used the Psalms from the Old Testament and inserted MARY in place of God. Yes, you heard that right. If that in of itself does not scream idolatry, then idolatry has no meaning whatsoever. If one can't recognize the idolatry in that, then one never will.)

Pope John Paul II's personal motto was "Totus tuum Maria" which (accurately) translated means "I am all yours, Mary". It comes from a Marian prayer in the 1712 book True Devotion to Mary by Louis de Montfort. The prayer goes:

"Totus tuus ego sum, et omnia mea tua sunt. Accipio te in mea omnia. Praebe mihi cor tuum, Maria."
("I belong entirely to you, and all that I have is yours. I take you for my all. O Mary, give me your heart")


He belongs entirely to Mary?? Mary is his all??

How does all this not make plainly obvious, about who Mary is in Roman Catholicism? And mind you, we're not even including their bowing and praying to Mary's image IN CHURCH, singing hymns to her IN CHURCH, holding hundreds of festivals for her, calling her "THE ALL HOLY ONE" in their catechism, etc. There's gotta be a point where the oft-repeated, "you're taking it out of context" go-to argument from Roman Catholics hunkering down on the defensive starts to face an enormous and ever-expanding wall of implausibility.... isn't there? Why do they think we'll keep buying it? The level of gaslighting is truly perplexing.

---

I understand what you are saying regarding RC leaders and their written statements regarding Mary. I just don't see the trickledown coming out in the liturgy.

---

But again, the question is not whether they are personally engaging in or expressing those sentiments - the question is whether these Catholics, who insist they aren't worshiping Mary, are willing/able to disavow those statements? If they are not, then it doesn't do much to lend credence to their claim. No one who truly loves and worships God alone would ever find those statements even remotely acceptable. If they lack discernment in that area, then there's something really, really wrong.

---

Are all Christian's theologically trained?

Are we saved corporately or as individuals?

I don't deal with the Catholic Church. I deal with Catholics.

I don't deal with prosperity churches, Hillsong, Bethel etc… I deal with individuals.

You stick with the corporate battles of church vs church. I'll stick with individuals. We each have our roles.

---

I get that you're defensive for the sake of your kin. But this isn't about theological training or what they belief individually and personally. But the truth remains that if they can't recognize the problem in crediting any other person other than Jesus for their salvation, you know, the central tenet of the Christian faith, then there's something really wrong with their Christianity. Is this even debatable?

---

"This isn't about…. But…"

Like I said , you handle the corporate side and I'll handle the individual side.

---

What exactly is wrong about what I just said?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ARBear13 gave a good answer, that Mary is the first and greatest evangelist. Her role as co-mediatrix and co-redeemer, if one chooses to use those terms, doesn't diminish Christ but points the way to him.

The idea is similar to what Paul says in Colossians 1:24 -- that he is grateful for his sufferings because they help complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of course we know that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for our salvation. All that's lacking is evangelizing, which is what Paul refers to.

To that I would only add that Mary's role as evangelist didn't end with Christ's death and resurrection. The Church teaches that it continues until the end of time:

Quote:

---

This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. (Lumen Gentium 62)

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ArBear didn't give a good answer. He didn't answer me at all. He completely dodged the point, just as you are doing.

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"All Christians can help 'save' others in a subordinate sense through evangelism by directing people to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 9:22. The Catholic Church believes that Mother Mary is the best possible evangelist because she loved Jesus more than anyone else, so she can bring people to salvation through her evangelical witness. That is the sense in which the word 'salvation' is used in all the scenarios you quoted."

---

Seriously- what's the matter with you Roman Catholics? Are you honestly saying that because all Christians can help save others, that it means "none can attain salvation except through that Christian", that "none goes to Jesus except through that Christian", that the Christian is the "gate of heaven", that sinners receive pardon "by that Christian's intercession alone", that the Christian is the "road we must travel to get to God", and that "we obtain EVERY hope, grace and ALL SALVATION through that Christian"??

---

No, Mary is unique in that way. As Christ's mother, she alone is the gate through which salvation came into the world.

---

Jesus - "I AM THE GATE" (John 10:9)

Your blind spot to Marian idolatry is absolutely astounding and perplexing. You can't even see it as you're doing it.

---

Jesus is indeed the Gate by which we enter into eternal life, but Mary is the (lower case) gate by which Jesus, the Source of our salvation, entered into the world.

Anyone who attempts to understand or honor Mary apart from her roles as Mother of God and Mother of the Church is fundamentally and grievously misunderstanding the role that she has in the Christian faith. That is the entire reason why the Vatican released this doctrinal note in the first place to avoid scenarios in which Mary is, even accidentally, attributed roles or powers that do not and cannot originate from her. Every single Catholic saint and pope that you mentioned in your list of quotes recognized the crucial, fundamental difference between Creator (God) and created (Mary) on many other occasions in their writings, as I demonstrated with the quote from Louis de Montfort.

A helpful analogy from the Venerable Fulton Sheen, a Catholic bishop, is that of the sun and moon. In this analogy, Christ is the sun, the source of light and the object around which our solar system revolves. Mary is the moon in this analogy. The sun and moon are the brightest objects in the sky, but everyone who knows anything about astronomy knows that the moon does not emit any light on its own; it merely reflects the light of the sun back to Earth. We can write songs and poems praising the beauty and illuminating qualities of the moon while also being fully aware that everything that makes the moon beautiful and illuminating has its origins in the sun. So it is with Mary and Jesus.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ARBear13 gave a good answer, that Mary is the first and greatest evangelist. Her role as co-mediatrix and co-redeemer, if one chooses to use those terms, doesn't diminish Christ but points the way to him.

The idea is similar to what Paul says in Colossians 1:24 -- that he is grateful for his sufferings because they help complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of course we know that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for our salvation. All that's lacking is evangelizing, which is what Paul refers to.

To that I would only add that Mary's role as evangelist didn't end with Christ's death and resurrection. The Church teaches that it continues until the end of time:

Quote:

---

This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. (Lumen Gentium 62)

---

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ArBear didn't give a good answer. He didn't answer me at all. He completely dodged the point, just as you are doing.

---

"All Christians can help 'save' others in a subordinate sense through evangelism by directing people to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 9:22. The Catholic Church believes that Mother Mary is the best possible evangelist because she loved Jesus more than anyone else, so she can bring people to salvation through her evangelical witness. That is the sense in which the word 'salvation' is used in all the scenarios you quoted."

---

Seriously- what's the matter with you Roman Catholics? Are you honestly saying that because all Christians can help save others, that it means "none can attain salvation except through that Christian", that "none goes to Jesus except through that Christian", that the Christian is the "gate of heaven", that sinners receive pardon "by that Christian's intercession alone", that the Christian is the "road we must travel to get to God", and that "we obtain EVERY hope, grace and ALL SALVATION through that Christian"??

---

No, Mary is unique in that way. As Christ's mother, she alone is the gate through which salvation came into the world.

---

Jesus - "I AM THE GATE" (John 10:9)

Your blind spot to Marian idolatry is absolutely astounding and perplexing. You can't even see it as you're doing it.

---

"It was thus that Christ died as a ransom, paid once for all, on behalf of our sins, he the innocent for us the guilty, so as to present us in God's sight." (1 Peter 3:18)

"Even as I write, I am glad of my sufferings on your behalf, as, in this mortal frame of mine, I help to pay off the debt which the afflictions of Christ still leave to be paid, for the sake of his body, the Church." (Colossians 1:24)

Which one is right, and which one is the heretic?

You will never find satisfactory answers to your questions by proof-texting. You must understand that words have different meanings in different contexts.

---

It wasn't "proof-texting". You called Mary the gate, when Jesus' direct and clear, unambiguous words was that HE is the gate. You're attempting to squirm out of the fact that you demonstrated first hand the kind of Marian idolatry that plagues your church.

There is nothing Paul is saying that is giving him the exclusive honor that only belongs to Jesus. There is only ONE gate to heaven, "THE" gate. And Jesus says he is it. Roman Catholics like yourself give that honor to Mary. And whatever it is, be it extreme ignorance, dishonesty, blindness, satanic brainwashing, even plain old stupidity... something is blinding you to your idolatry.

And never mind that you only answered to the "gate" aspect of my question, and conspicuously avoided answering to the "salvation being ONLY through Mary" part. Your sophistry isn't going to work.

---

Hopefully we can agree that Jesus is not an actual gate. Metaphors can be used in different ways for different things. When we say Mary was the gate by which salvation entered the world, we simply mean that through her Christ became incarnate.

Paul may not be giving himself exclusive honor, but he is taking honor that belongs exclusively to Jesus -- at least by your logic. That's why you can't just pick out words and phrases to prove a point. You need to understand what is meant in context.

---

No, Paul is not taking any honor away from Jesus. He's saying that his suffering was required as a continuation of Jesus' sufferings, because he had to spread the gospel which would require suffering.

---

Correct. And likewise, what these theologians are saying is that Mary's mediation and intercession are required as a continuation of Christ's.

---

....and saying that her intercession alone is necessary for salvation, that NO ONE can come to Jesus without her, that those who seek HER protection will be saved, that SHE is the foundation of ALL our confidence, and that we obtain EVERY GRACE and ALL SALVATION only through her.

All very unbiblical and obviously idolatrous beliefs, usurping Jesus. And pure worship. Your ignorance/lack of discernment/dishonesty regarding this fact tells us the whole story about Roman Catholicism.

ARbear13 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ARBear13 gave a good answer, that Mary is the first and greatest evangelist. Her role as co-mediatrix and co-redeemer, if one chooses to use those terms, doesn't diminish Christ but points the way to him.

The idea is similar to what Paul says in Colossians 1:24 -- that he is grateful for his sufferings because they help complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of course we know that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for our salvation. All that's lacking is evangelizing, which is what Paul refers to.

To that I would only add that Mary's role as evangelist didn't end with Christ's death and resurrection. The Church teaches that it continues until the end of time:

Quote:

---

This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. (Lumen Gentium 62)

---

---

ArBear didn't give a good answer. He didn't answer me at all. He completely dodged the point, just as you are doing.

---

"All Christians can help 'save' others in a subordinate sense through evangelism by directing people to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 9:22. The Catholic Church believes that Mother Mary is the best possible evangelist because she loved Jesus more than anyone else, so she can bring people to salvation through her evangelical witness. That is the sense in which the word 'salvation' is used in all the scenarios you quoted."

---

Seriously- what's the matter with you Roman Catholics? Are you honestly saying that because all Christians can help save others, that it means "none can attain salvation except through that Christian", that "none goes to Jesus except through that Christian", that the Christian is the "gate of heaven", that sinners receive pardon "by that Christian's intercession alone", that the Christian is the "road we must travel to get to God", and that "we obtain EVERY hope, grace and ALL SALVATION through that Christian"??

---

No, Mary is unique in that way. As Christ's mother, she alone is the gate through which salvation came into the world.

---

Jesus - "I AM THE GATE" (John 10:9)

Your blind spot to Marian idolatry is absolutely astounding and perplexing. You can't even see it as you're doing it.

---

Jesus is indeed the Gate by which we enter into eternal life, but Mary is the (lower case) gate by which Jesus, the Source of our salvation, entered into the world.

Anyone who attempts to understand or honor Mary apart from her roles as Mother of God and Mother of the Church is fundamentally and grievously misunderstanding the role that she has in the Christian faith. That is the entire reason why the Vatican released this doctrinal note in the first place to avoid scenarios in which Mary is, even accidentally, attributed roles or powers that do not and cannot originate from her. Every single Catholic saint and pope that you mentioned in your list of quotes recognized the crucial, fundamental difference between Creator (God) and created (Mary) on many other occasions in their writings, as I demonstrated with the quote from Louis de Montfort.

A helpful analogy from the Venerable Fulton Sheen, a Catholic bishop, is that of the sun and moon. In this analogy, Christ is the sun, the source of light and the object around which our solar system revolves. Mary is the moon in this analogy. The sun and moon are the brightest objects in the sky, but everyone who knows anything about astronomy knows that the moon does not emit any light on its own; it merely reflects the light of the sun back to Earth. We can write songs and poems praising the beauty and illuminating qualities of the moon while also being fully aware that everything that makes the moon beautiful and illuminating has its origins in the sun. So it is with Mary and Jesus.

---

And Roman Catholicism has indeed taught, and does teach, that Mary is necessary for all for their salvation, as evidenced by all that I've referenced. Agreed?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ARBear13 gave a good answer, that Mary is the first and greatest evangelist. Her role as co-mediatrix and co-redeemer, if one chooses to use those terms, doesn't diminish Christ but points the way to him.

The idea is similar to what Paul says in Colossians 1:24 -- that he is grateful for his sufferings because they help complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of course we know that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for our salvation. All that's lacking is evangelizing, which is what Paul refers to.

To that I would only add that Mary's role as evangelist didn't end with Christ's death and resurrection. The Church teaches that it continues until the end of time:

Quote:

---

This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. (Lumen Gentium 62)

---

---

ArBear didn't give a good answer. He didn't answer me at all. He completely dodged the point, just as you are doing.

---

"All Christians can help 'save' others in a subordinate sense through evangelism by directing people to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 9:22. The Catholic Church believes that Mother Mary is the best possible evangelist because she loved Jesus more than anyone else, so she can bring people to salvation through her evangelical witness. That is the sense in which the word 'salvation' is used in all the scenarios you quoted."

---

Seriously- what's the matter with you Roman Catholics? Are you honestly saying that because all Christians can help save others, that it means "none can attain salvation except through that Christian", that "none goes to Jesus except through that Christian", that the Christian is the "gate of heaven", that sinners receive pardon "by that Christian's intercession alone", that the Christian is the "road we must travel to get to God", and that "we obtain EVERY hope, grace and ALL SALVATION through that Christian"??

---

No, Mary is unique in that way. As Christ's mother, she alone is the gate through which salvation came into the world.

---

Jesus - "I AM THE GATE" (John 10:9)

Your blind spot to Marian idolatry is absolutely astounding and perplexing. You can't even see it as you're doing it.

---

"It was thus that Christ died as a ransom, paid once for all, on behalf of our sins, he the innocent for us the guilty, so as to present us in God's sight." (1 Peter 3:18)

"Even as I write, I am glad of my sufferings on your behalf, as, in this mortal frame of mine, I help to pay off the debt which the afflictions of Christ still leave to be paid, for the sake of his body, the Church." (Colossians 1:24)

Which one is right, and which one is the heretic?

You will never find satisfactory answers to your questions by proof-texting. You must understand that words have different meanings in different contexts.

---

It wasn't "proof-texting". You called Mary the gate, when Jesus' direct and clear, unambiguous words was that HE is the gate. You're attempting to squirm out of the fact that you demonstrated first hand the kind of Marian idolatry that plagues your church.

There is nothing Paul is saying that is giving him the exclusive honor that only belongs to Jesus. There is only ONE gate to heaven, "THE" gate. And Jesus says he is it. Roman Catholics like yourself give that honor to Mary. And whatever it is, be it extreme ignorance, dishonesty, blindness, satanic brainwashing, even plain old stupidity... something is blinding you to your idolatry.

And never mind that you only answered to the "gate" aspect of my question, and conspicuously avoided answering to the "salvation being ONLY through Mary" part. Your sophistry isn't going to work.

---

Hopefully we can agree that Jesus is not an actual gate. Metaphors can be used in different ways for different things. When we say Mary was the gate by which salvation entered the world, we simply mean that through her Christ became incarnate.

Paul may not be giving himself exclusive honor, but he is taking honor that belongs exclusively to Jesus -- at least by your logic. That's why you can't just pick out words and phrases to prove a point. You need to understand what is meant in context.

---

No, Paul is not taking any honor away from Jesus. He's saying that his suffering was required as a continuation of Jesus' sufferings, because he had to spread the gospel which would require suffering.

---

Correct. And likewise, what these theologians are saying is that Mary's mediation and intercession are required as a continuation of Christ's.

---

....and saying that her intercession alone is necessary for salvation, that NO ONE can come to Jesus without her, that those who seek HER protection will be saved, that SHE is the foundation of ALL our confidence, and that we obtain EVERY GRACE and ALL SALVATION only through her.

All very unbiblical and obviously idolatrous beliefs, usurping Jesus. And pure worship. Your ignorance/lack of discernment/dishonesty regarding this fact tells us the whole story about Roman Catholicism.

---

I understand your issues with some of that language. I hope you'll find your way to a better understanding of its meaning.