Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

How does Jesus say to treat the poor? Kick their asses out and let them pay for everything so I can buy a new watch?

---

Show me where Jesus passed laws. I seem to recall something about 'my kingdom is not of this world'.

FLBear was arguing rights, not ethics

---

I thought the distinction was very obvious to an educated person. Health care is not a right. That does not mean a society does not have an ethical obligation to care for the sick. Seems simple. It is part of the overall program of Orwellian abuse of the language the left constantly employs - label ever public program you want a "right" and seemingly it makes it more difficult to argue against. Words and language matter.

I find on these boards people tend to project their strawmen and argue with that vs. actually reading. It's easier to make emotional hysterics than think critically.

---

We do need to be precise when talking about rights.

And my questions cut to the chase. SOMEONE has to pay for all this.

Whatever is decided, let's not just feed the rich (insurance corporations) and the evil (politicians buying votes with the peoples' hard-earned wages).

I personally think George Washington and John Adams would think we had lost our damn minds handing control of medical care to the government, which is the inevitable end of pretending healthcare is a right.

Let's stop monopolies and denying the ability to include medical bills in bankruptcy filings. Let's NEVER be foolish enough to repeat the ACA.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

How does Jesus say to treat the poor? Kick their asses out and let them pay for everything so I can buy a new watch?

---

Show me where Jesus passed laws. I seem to recall something about 'my kingdom is not of this world'.

FLBear was arguing rights, not ethics

---

I thought the distinction was very obvious to an educated person. Health care is not a right. That does not mean a society does not have an ethical obligation to care for the sick. Seems simple. It is part of the overall program of Orwellian abuse of the language the left constantly employs - label ever public program you want a "right" and seemingly it makes it more difficult to argue against. Words and language matter.

I find on these boards people tend to project their strawmen and argue with that vs. actually reading. It's easier to make emotional hysterics than think critically.

---

We do need to be precise when talking about rights.

And my questions cut to the chase. SOMEONE has to pay for all this.

Whatever is decided, let's not just feed the rich (insurance corporations) and the evil (politicians buying votes with the peoples' hard-earned wages).

I personally think George Washington and John Adams would think we had lost our damn minds handing control of medical care to the government, which is the inevitable end of pretending healthcare is a right.

Let's stop monopolies and denying the ability to include medical bills in bankruptcy filings. Let's NEVER be foolish enough to repeat the ACA.

---

We do agree on most of this! It has to be pretty broke for the Government to be a better option. I do like and agree with your ideas. I don't think anyone would want ACA if the regular system worked. It is a last resort.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

How does Jesus say to treat the poor? Kick their asses out and let them pay for everything so I can buy a new watch?

---

Show me where Jesus passed laws. I seem to recall something about 'my kingdom is not of this world'.

FLBear was arguing rights, not ethics

---

I thought the distinction was very obvious to an educated person. Health care is not a right. That does not mean a society does not have an ethical obligation to care for the sick. Seems simple. It is part of the overall program of Orwellian abuse of the language the left constantly employs - label ever public program you want a "right" and seemingly it makes it more difficult to argue against. Words and language matter.

I find on these boards people tend to project their strawmen and argue with that vs. actually reading. It's easier to make emotional hysterics than think critically.

---

We do need to be precise when talking about rights.

And my questions cut to the chase. SOMEONE has to pay for all this.

Whatever is decided, let's not just feed the rich (insurance corporations) and the evil (politicians buying votes with the peoples' hard-earned wages).

I personally think George Washington and John Adams would think we had lost our damn minds handing control of medical care to the government, which is the inevitable end of pretending healthcare is a right.

Let's stop monopolies and denying the ability to include medical bills in bankruptcy filings. Let's NEVER be foolish enough to repeat the ACA.

---

We do agree on most of this! It has to be pretty broke for the Government to be a better option. I do like and agree with your ideas. I don't think anyone would want ACA if the regular system worked. It is a last resort.

---

In general I also agree. There has to be at least one better way. Perhaps we should also study what other countries may be doing better than we are, why they are, and how it is being financed, plus how effective the overall system works for the consumer, including quality of care.

BUDOS said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

How does Jesus say to treat the poor? Kick their asses out and let them pay for everything so I can buy a new watch?

---

Show me where Jesus passed laws. I seem to recall something about 'my kingdom is not of this world'.

FLBear was arguing rights, not ethics

---

I thought the distinction was very obvious to an educated person. Health care is not a right. That does not mean a society does not have an ethical obligation to care for the sick. Seems simple. It is part of the overall program of Orwellian abuse of the language the left constantly employs - label ever public program you want a "right" and seemingly it makes it more difficult to argue against. Words and language matter.

I find on these boards people tend to project their strawmen and argue with that vs. actually reading. It's easier to make emotional hysterics than think critically.

---

We do need to be precise when talking about rights.

And my questions cut to the chase. SOMEONE has to pay for all this.

Whatever is decided, let's not just feed the rich (insurance corporations) and the evil (politicians buying votes with the peoples' hard-earned wages).

I personally think George Washington and John Adams would think we had lost our damn minds handing control of medical care to the government, which is the inevitable end of pretending healthcare is a right.

Let's stop monopolies and denying the ability to include medical bills in bankruptcy filings. Let's NEVER be foolish enough to repeat the ACA.

---

We do agree on most of this! It has to be pretty broke for the Government to be a better option. I do like and agree with your ideas. I don't think anyone would want ACA if the regular system worked. It is a last resort.

---

In general I also agree. There has to be at least one better way. Perhaps we should also study what other countries may be doing better than we are, why they are, and how it is being financed, plus how effective the overall system works for the consumer, including quality of care.

---

One thing is clear: whenever the government regulates and pays for something like health care or education, costs skyrocket. One of the most effective systems is in Singapore, which relies more on individual accountability. The big national systems like Canada and the U.K. have proven to be expensive nightmares of high costs, low quality, and poor access.

There is an Iron Triangle of health care: one must trade off Access - Quality - Cost. Cannot have all three.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

Geez, guys. I know it is not a right in our current system. I BELIEVE it is a right. It is one area I do think the Government can and should provide, it doesn't have to be full on socialized medicine. It could be a tiered system, but every citizen and person legally here should have basic access. Non-citizens, emergency and then back to where they came from. That is my believe. You guys obviously disagree.

---

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years? (yes, we have noticed that Democrats are starting to call it the ACA rather than Obamacare now that it is a disaster)

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

Geez, guys. I know it is not a right in our current system. I BELIEVE it is a right. It is one area I do think the Government can and should provide, it doesn't have to be full on socialized medicine. It could be a tiered system, but every citizen and person legally here should have basic access. Non-citizens, emergency and then back to where they came from. That is my believe. You guys obviously disagree.

---

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years? (yes, we have noticed that Democrats are starting to call it the ACA rather than Obamacare now that it is a disaster)

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

---

I am not blaming Trump for anything on Healthcare; ACA is the hand he was dealt. That said, he has to play that hand. Come up with an alternative before blowing it up. That is a reasonable position.

As I said in another Post, health care has to be broken for the ACA to be a better option for many people and I can't imagine anyone wanting it IF there was a better alternative.

IF Trump/GOP kill ACA or let it become so expensive it is unusable, they will GET the blame regardless of whether ACA was their fault or not.

"Access + Quality Basic Care + Reasonable Cost" is where he needs to go. If he gets the people that plus shutting the Border and prescriptions under control, they will demand a third term!

You seem to think I dislike Trump or want him to fail. I definitely do not want him to fail, but he has to start delivering something on the Domestic side people are struggling and need help. That is where the Dem's live.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

Geez, guys. I know it is not a right in our current system. I BELIEVE it is a right. It is one area I do think the Government can and should provide, it doesn't have to be full on socialized medicine. It could be a tiered system, but every citizen and person legally here should have basic access. Non-citizens, emergency and then back to where they came from. That is my believe. You guys obviously disagree.

---

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years? (yes, we have noticed that Democrats are starting to call it the ACA rather than Obamacare now that it is a disaster)

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

---

I am not blaming Trump for anything on Healthcare; ACA is the hand he was dealt. That said, he has to play that hand. Come up with an alternative before blowing it up. That is a reasonable position.

As I said in another Post, health care has to be broken for the ACA to be a better option for many people and I can't imagine anyone wanting it IF there was a better alternative.

IF Trump/GOP kill ACA or let it become so expensive it is unusable, they will GET the blame regardless of whether ACA was their fault or not.

"Access + Quality Basic Care + Reasonable Cost" is where he needs to go. If he gets the people that plus shutting the Border and prescriptions under control, they will demand a third term!

You seem to think I dislike Trump or want him to fail. I definitely do not want him to fail, but he has to start delivering something on the Domestic side people are struggling and need help. That is where the Dem's live.

---

I agree, but the Obamacare subsidies are not about lowering health care costs they are about kickbacks to Big Insurance. Again, two questions avoided:
1. Why do we need covid subsidies five years after covid?
2. Do you math: $1.5T for Obamacare and 24M people on it: what does that equate to PPPY?

Obamacare was the signature Democrat legislation, and it fought all efforts to overturn or reform it. Everyone knows that. Most call it Obamacare even though the memo as gone out to rebrand. No large health care system in the world with significant government involvement is good for the sick or the healthy.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

Geez, guys. I know it is not a right in our current system. I BELIEVE it is a right. It is one area I do think the Government can and should provide, it doesn't have to be full on socialized medicine. It could be a tiered system, but every citizen and person legally here should have basic access. Non-citizens, emergency and then back to where they came from. That is my believe. You guys obviously disagree.

---

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years? (yes, we have noticed that Democrats are starting to call it the ACA rather than Obamacare now that it is a disaster)

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

---

I am not blaming Trump for anything on Healthcare; ACA is the hand he was dealt. That said, he has to play that hand. Come up with an alternative before blowing it up. That is a reasonable position.

As I said in another Post, health care has to be broken for the ACA to be a better option for many people and I can't imagine anyone wanting it IF there was a better alternative.

IF Trump/GOP kill ACA or let it become so expensive it is unusable, they will GET the blame regardless of whether ACA was their fault or not.

"Access + Quality Basic Care + Reasonable Cost" is where he needs to go. If he gets the people that plus shutting the Border and prescriptions under control, they will demand a third term!

You seem to think I dislike Trump or want him to fail. I definitely do not want him to fail, but he has to start delivering something on the Domestic side people are struggling and need help. That is where the Dem's live.

---

I agree, but the Obamacare subsidies are not about lowering health care costs they are about kickbacks to Big Insurance. Again, two questions avoided:
1. Why do we need covid subsidies five years after covid?
2. Do you math: $1.5T for Obamacare and 24M people on it: what does that equate to PPPY?

Obamacare was the signature Democrat legislation, and it fought all efforts to overturn or reform it. Everyone knows that. Most call it Obamacare even though the memo as gone out to rebrand. No large health care system in the world with significant government involvement is good for the sick or the healthy.

---

All that is true. Not going to matter in an election for the GOP. It will be they are taking my health care... The reality of elections.

I do believe Trump is getting frustrated with his staff and Congress. People are downplaying his ideas. But, I read it differently. He is frustrated to the point that he is throwing out ideas in every interview, showing it is not hard guys. Come up with an idea and let's look at it. But it seems he is the ONLY one coming up with any ideas. I for one appreciate the effort. Yeah, 50 year mortgage or individual HSA's may not be the answer, but he is trying...

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

Geez, guys. I know it is not a right in our current system. I BELIEVE it is a right. It is one area I do think the Government can and should provide, it doesn't have to be full on socialized medicine. It could be a tiered system, but every citizen and person legally here should have basic access. Non-citizens, emergency and then back to where they came from. That is my believe. You guys obviously disagree.

---

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years? (yes, we have noticed that Democrats are starting to call it the ACA rather than Obamacare now that it is a disaster)

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

---

I am not blaming Trump for anything on Healthcare; ACA is the hand he was dealt. That said, he has to play that hand. Come up with an alternative before blowing it up. That is a reasonable position.

As I said in another Post, health care has to be broken for the ACA to be a better option for many people and I can't imagine anyone wanting it IF there was a better alternative.

IF Trump/GOP kill ACA or let it become so expensive it is unusable, they will GET the blame regardless of whether ACA was their fault or not.

"Access + Quality Basic Care + Reasonable Cost" is where he needs to go. If he gets the people that plus shutting the Border and prescriptions under control, they will demand a third term!

You seem to think I dislike Trump or want him to fail. I definitely do not want him to fail, but he has to start delivering something on the Domestic side people are struggling and need help. That is where the Dem's live.

---

I agree, but the Obamacare subsidies are not about lowering health care costs they are about kickbacks to Big Insurance. Again, two questions avoided:
1. Why do we need covid subsidies five years after covid?
2. Do you math: $1.5T for Obamacare and 24M people on it: what does that equate to PPPY?

Obamacare was the signature Democrat legislation, and it fought all efforts to overturn or reform it. Everyone knows that. Most call it Obamacare even though the memo as gone out to rebrand. No large health care system in the world with significant government involvement is good for the sick or the healthy.

---

Once again, BOOM goes the dynamite.

canoso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

Geez, guys. I know it is not a right in our current system. I BELIEVE it is a right. It is one area I do think the Government can and should provide, it doesn't have to be full on socialized medicine. It could be a tiered system, but every citizen and person legally here should have basic access. Non-citizens, emergency and then back to where they came from. That is my believe. You guys obviously disagree.

---

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years? (yes, we have noticed that Democrats are starting to call it the ACA rather than Obamacare now that it is a disaster)

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

---

I am not blaming Trump for anything on Healthcare; ACA is the hand he was dealt. That said, he has to play that hand. Come up with an alternative before blowing it up. That is a reasonable position.

As I said in another Post, health care has to be broken for the ACA to be a better option for many people and I can't imagine anyone wanting it IF there was a better alternative.

IF Trump/GOP kill ACA or let it become so expensive it is unusable, they will GET the blame regardless of whether ACA was their fault or not.

"Access + Quality Basic Care + Reasonable Cost" is where he needs to go. If he gets the people that plus shutting the Border and prescriptions under control, they will demand a third term!

You seem to think I dislike Trump or want him to fail. I definitely do not want him to fail, but he has to start delivering something on the Domestic side people are struggling and need help. That is where the Dem's live.

---

I agree, but the Obamacare subsidies are not about lowering health care costs they are about kickbacks to Big Insurance. Again, two questions avoided:
1. Why do we need covid subsidies five years after covid?
2. Do you math: $1.5T for Obamacare and 24M people on it: what does that equate to PPPY?

Obamacare was the signature Democrat legislation, and it fought all efforts to overturn or reform it. Everyone knows that. Most call it Obamacare even though the memo as gone out to rebrand. No large health care system in the world with significant government involvement is good for the sick or the healthy.

---

Once again, BOOM goes the dynamite.

---

What dynamite? You want people to not have health care? You are rooting that we kill it and leave millions wondering how they get medical treatment? Is that the goal?

Killing a program with no alternative just creates another problem. Rather than destroying, try building something sometime. It is a bit harder...

(Sam, how about a BOOM?)

BUDOS said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

How does Jesus say to treat the poor? Kick their asses out and let them pay for everything so I can buy a new watch?

---

Show me where Jesus passed laws. I seem to recall something about 'my kingdom is not of this world'.

FLBear was arguing rights, not ethics

---

I thought the distinction was very obvious to an educated person. Health care is not a right. That does not mean a society does not have an ethical obligation to care for the sick. Seems simple. It is part of the overall program of Orwellian abuse of the language the left constantly employs - label ever public program you want a "right" and seemingly it makes it more difficult to argue against. Words and language matter.

I find on these boards people tend to project their strawmen and argue with that vs. actually reading. It's easier to make emotional hysterics than think critically.

---

We do need to be precise when talking about rights.

And my questions cut to the chase. SOMEONE has to pay for all this.

Whatever is decided, let's not just feed the rich (insurance corporations) and the evil (politicians buying votes with the peoples' hard-earned wages).

I personally think George Washington and John Adams would think we had lost our damn minds handing control of medical care to the government, which is the inevitable end of pretending healthcare is a right.

Let's stop monopolies and denying the ability to include medical bills in bankruptcy filings. Let's NEVER be foolish enough to repeat the ACA.

---

We do agree on most of this! It has to be pretty broke for the Government to be a better option. I do like and agree with your ideas. I don't think anyone would want ACA if the regular system worked. It is a last resort.

---

In general I also agree. There has to be at least one better way. Perhaps we should also study what other countries may be doing better than we are, why they are, and how it is being financed, plus how effective the overall system works for the consumer, including quality of care.

---

Government is obviously necessary, but bureaucracy is the most wasteful, corrupt, and convoluted thing in the universe. So glad the framers of the constitution lived before Marx and his sycophants.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

Geez, guys. I know it is not a right in our current system. I BELIEVE it is a right. It is one area I do think the Government can and should provide, it doesn't have to be full on socialized medicine. It could be a tiered system, but every citizen and person legally here should have basic access. Non-citizens, emergency and then back to where they came from. That is my believe. You guys obviously disagree.

---

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years? (yes, we have noticed that Democrats are starting to call it the ACA rather than Obamacare now that it is a disaster)

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

---

I am not blaming Trump for anything on Healthcare; ACA is the hand he was dealt. That said, he has to play that hand. Come up with an alternative before blowing it up. That is a reasonable position.

As I said in another Post, health care has to be broken for the ACA to be a better option for many people and I can't imagine anyone wanting it IF there was a better alternative.

IF Trump/GOP kill ACA or let it become so expensive it is unusable, they will GET the blame regardless of whether ACA was their fault or not.

"Access + Quality Basic Care + Reasonable Cost" is where he needs to go. If he gets the people that plus shutting the Border and prescriptions under control, they will demand a third term!

You seem to think I dislike Trump or want him to fail. I definitely do not want him to fail, but he has to start delivering something on the Domestic side people are struggling and need help. That is where the Dem's live.

---

I agree, but the Obamacare subsidies are not about lowering health care costs they are about kickbacks to Big Insurance. Again, two questions avoided:
1. Why do we need covid subsidies five years after covid?
2. Do you math: $1.5T for Obamacare and 24M people on it: what does that equate to PPPY?

Obamacare was the signature Democrat legislation, and it fought all efforts to overturn or reform it. Everyone knows that. Most call it Obamacare even though the memo as gone out to rebrand. No large health care system in the world with significant government involvement is good for the sick or the healthy.

---

All that is true. Not going to matter in an election for the GOP. It will be they are taking my health care... The reality of elections.

I do believe Trump is getting frustrated with his staff and Congress. People are downplaying his ideas. But, I read it differently. He is frustrated to the point that he is throwing out ideas in every interview, showing it is not hard guys. Come up with an idea and let's look at it. But it seems he is the ONLY one coming up with any ideas. I for one appreciate the effort. Yeah, 50 year mortgage or individual HSA's may not be the answer, but he is trying...

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That's the good and bad of Trump. He has lots of great ideas and is a problem solver (vs. a professional politician), but he does not fully appreciate the discipline needed with communication - when he opens his mouth he can change the world. But he is creative and wants to make things better - other than residual anger for defeating Queen Hillary, I will never get the Trump hate ... dude is a Clintonian Democrat and hardly a conservative Republican.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

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Geez, guys. I know it is not a right in our current system. I BELIEVE it is a right. It is one area I do think the Government can and should provide, it doesn't have to be full on socialized medicine. It could be a tiered system, but every citizen and person legally here should have basic access. Non-citizens, emergency and then back to where they came from. That is my believe. You guys obviously disagree.

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Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years? (yes, we have noticed that Democrats are starting to call it the ACA rather than Obamacare now that it is a disaster)

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

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I am not blaming Trump for anything on Healthcare; ACA is the hand he was dealt. That said, he has to play that hand. Come up with an alternative before blowing it up. That is a reasonable position.

As I said in another Post, health care has to be broken for the ACA to be a better option for many people and I can't imagine anyone wanting it IF there was a better alternative.

IF Trump/GOP kill ACA or let it become so expensive it is unusable, they will GET the blame regardless of whether ACA was their fault or not.

"Access + Quality Basic Care + Reasonable Cost" is where he needs to go. If he gets the people that plus shutting the Border and prescriptions under control, they will demand a third term!

You seem to think I dislike Trump or want him to fail. I definitely do not want him to fail, but he has to start delivering something on the Domestic side people are struggling and need help. That is where the Dem's live.

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I agree, but the Obamacare subsidies are not about lowering health care costs they are about kickbacks to Big Insurance. Again, two questions avoided:
1. Why do we need covid subsidies five years after covid?
2. Do you math: $1.5T for Obamacare and 24M people on it: what does that equate to PPPY?

Obamacare was the signature Democrat legislation, and it fought all efforts to overturn or reform it. Everyone knows that. Most call it Obamacare even though the memo as gone out to rebrand. No large health care system in the world with significant government involvement is good for the sick or the healthy.

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All that is true. Not going to matter in an election for the GOP. It will be they are taking my health care... The reality of elections.

I do believe Trump is getting frustrated with his staff and Congress. People are downplaying his ideas. But, I read it differently. He is frustrated to the point that he is throwing out ideas in every interview, showing it is not hard guys. Come up with an idea and let's look at it. But it seems he is the ONLY one coming up with any ideas. I for one appreciate the effort. Yeah, 50 year mortgage or individual HSA's may not be the answer, but he is trying...

---

That's the good and bad of Trump. He has lots of great ideas and is a problem solver (vs. a professional politician), but he does not fully appreciate the discipline needed with communication - when he opens his mouth he can change the world. But he is creative and wants to make things better - other than residual anger for defeating Queen Hillary, I will never get the Trump hate ... dude is a Clintonian Democrat and hardly a conservative Republican.

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He has a lot of good traits to be sure. His need for everything to be the best ever, even if it is not, puts him on the defensive. I do agree with you and I do agree he wants to make the Country better. He has instilled a little of the take pride in where you come from mystique. Everyone else is proud to be from their Nations, we shoul be too. Talk to someone from China, Europe or Korea they take pride in their culture. We need that. The only place I see it is in Texas. You guys get that believe.

This might be the most CNN headline ever on CNN after a Republican won a seat where Democrats poured in millions of outside money:

"Republican Matt Van Epps will win Tennessee special election, averting Democratic upset, CNN projects"

CNN is a joke. The difference between it and MSNBC is that the latter knows it is a joke.

I am guessing we will not see this splashed everywhere tomorrow.

BUDOS said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

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How does Jesus say to treat the poor? Kick their asses out and let them pay for everything so I can buy a new watch?

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Show me where Jesus passed laws. I seem to recall something about 'my kingdom is not of this world'.

FLBear was arguing rights, not ethics

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I thought the distinction was very obvious to an educated person. Health care is not a right. That does not mean a society does not have an ethical obligation to care for the sick. Seems simple. It is part of the overall program of Orwellian abuse of the language the left constantly employs - label ever public program you want a "right" and seemingly it makes it more difficult to argue against. Words and language matter.

I find on these boards people tend to project their strawmen and argue with that vs. actually reading. It's easier to make emotional hysterics than think critically.

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We do need to be precise when talking about rights.

And my questions cut to the chase. SOMEONE has to pay for all this.

Whatever is decided, let's not just feed the rich (insurance corporations) and the evil (politicians buying votes with the peoples' hard-earned wages).

I personally think George Washington and John Adams would think we had lost our damn minds handing control of medical care to the government, which is the inevitable end of pretending healthcare is a right.

Let's stop monopolies and denying the ability to include medical bills in bankruptcy filings. Let's NEVER be foolish enough to repeat the ACA.

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We do agree on most of this! It has to be pretty broke for the Government to be a better option. I do like and agree with your ideas. I don't think anyone would want ACA if the regular system worked. It is a last resort.

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In general I also agree. There has to be at least one better way. Perhaps we should also study what other countries may be doing better than we are, why they are, and how it is being financed, plus how effective the overall system works for the consumer, including quality of care.

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Agreed. I lived in France and the HC was much better than what we have in terms of delivery (our development is singular). This just happened a few weeks ago . I was in Thailand, crashed a motorbike in the rain.. Had to go to the clinic"doc in box) and were worried I need an MRI on my shoulder, so off to the ER for MRI and then they were really worried about a head injury (had on a helmet), so had to go an hr for the CT. All is good and my fault, but the HC I received there (Ko Lanta) so not a big place was simply amazing. I did have traveler health insurance vis Switzerland (cheap). The bill was $2,800, but $250 Out of Pocket for amazing care. Suffice it so say we have been sold a bill of goods relative to "socialized medicine " as it relatives to drugs, procedures all orchestrated by the Insurance companies. Also, like anything, there are better ways to do it.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Dems must be so stupid to revolt and vote against this regime.

Fun fact, easy to find. For the last 20 or so years, voters with an education beyond high school are more likely to vote dem. The opposite is also true. The less education a voter has the more likely they are to vote Repub.

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The implication here is that democrat voters must be intelligent while republican voters must be stupid.

In reality, what this indicates is that democrat voters in general follow an established socialist track through college, graduate school, etc and are indoctrinated into certain forms of thought...after which they take middling positions in the institutional left and vote to protect their paychecks.

looks like it was an Erection Night.......

GOP +1.

- uncle fred

D!

Viva Trumpata!!

Realitybites said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Dems must be so stupid to revolt and vote against this regime.

Fun fact, easy to find. For the last 20 or so years, voters with an education beyond high school are more likely to vote dem. The opposite is also true. The less education a voter has the more likely they are to vote Repub.

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The implication here is that democrat voters must be intelligent while republican voters must be stupid.

In reality, what this indicates is that democrat voters in general follow an established socialist track through college, graduate school, etc and are indoctrinated into certain forms of thought...after which they take middling positions in the institutional left and vote to protect their paychecks.

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So the same morons that cannot get IDs to vote are more intelligent?

Right ...

A real problem some of us seem to have is the tendency to stereotype. For example I am a moderate conservative and former Republican (not a Democrat) with a doctorate, including two degrees from a small religious conservative institution in west Texas. Some may claim that I am the stereotype of a moderate conservative; however, others may be a bit more shallow, but not all.

Oldbear83 said:

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I personally think George Washington and John Adams would think we had lost our damn minds handing control of medical care to the government, which is the inevitable end of pretending healthcare is a right.

Let's stop monopolies and denying the ability to include medical bills in bankruptcy filings. Let's NEVER be foolish enough to repeat the ACA.

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If the writers of the Federalist Papers had seen what we have done, they probably would have written King George and requested that Colonial rule be re-instituted.

"***? You allowed 3,000 mosques to be built here?"
- Thomas Jefferson

Democracy has killed the United States.

Just as many of the Founding Fathers feared it would.

Perhaps; however, there seems to be a fair amount of research indicating that the Founding Fathers' greatest fear regarding the ability of their government to sustain itself was the potential for tyranny and the fragility of the new republic in the face of various threats. They sought a balance between a government that was strong enough to function and one that would not oppress its citizens, ultimately fearing that the experiment could dissolve into either anarchy or despotism.

Specific fears among the founders included Thomas Jefferson, for instance, who believed a consolidated government would become the "most corrupt government on earth". Additionally, they feared political factions, as George Washington and James Madison expressed deep concern over the rise of "factions" or political parties, which they believed would divide the nation, distract public councils, and open the door to corruption and foreign influence. Washington warned in his Farewell Address that the "spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension... is itself a frightful despotism".

Another fear was demagoguery and mob rule. With the founders being students of classical history they feared the potential for pure democracy to degenerate into chaos or the "tyranny of the majority". They worried that a charismatic leader (a demagogue) could exploit the emotions and prejudices of the populace to gain power and undermine the rule of law.

And, of all things, for some God only knows reason, they feared that in time we would lack "civic virtue." John Adam's, of all people, feared that the republic could not survive if the people lacked "public virtue"the willingness to prioritize the common good and public interest over private, selfish gains. The founders expected an informed citizenry to remain involved and vigilant in monitoring their government.

The U.S. Constitution, with its system of separation of powers, checks and balances, and federalism, was designed as a careful attempt to mitigate these various fears among others and create a stable, lasting republic. They succeeded. We failed.

The Founding Fathers were educated men.

Above all else they feared the 'passions' of the masses…..the mob.

Which is why they did not want direct popular vote.

Thought direct popular vote would eventually lead to tyranny.

I agree that is one of reasons. We have allowed ourselves to screw over our system of government that IMO we are the self-inflicted victims of more than just one.