Why Do Democrats Oppose Election Integrity Efforts

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cowboycwr
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Sam Lowry said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


All of this has been addressed.
A state issued id is no cost for those who can't afford it. All state IDs are going to RealID that requires a birth certificate already.
A married woman has to update her state issued ID when her name is changed. When registering to vote, she can use her marriage certificate if necessary. This would be rare as her ID would most likely already be updated before the next federal election. Only women freshly married right before voting would be affected. There are other pressing reasons for women to update their IDs quickly.

As stated before, those who don't have ID at all aren't voting anyway. Most of these people would be homeless or dependent, as renting or buying a place to live requires ID.
This really isn't a serious argument against voter ID.

The difficulties are quite real for some people, which is why most states still issue non-compliant IDs.



No it isn't. You need an ID to exist in today's society for hundreds of things, except vote and yet we don't have people excluded from these other things.
cowboycwr
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FLBear5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


All of this has been addressed.
A state issued id is no cost for those who can't afford it. All state IDs are going to RealID that requires a birth certificate already.
A married woman has to update her state issued ID when her name is changed. When registering to vote, she can use her marriage certificate if necessary. This would be rare as her ID would most likely already be updated before the next federal election. Only women freshly married right before voting would be affected. There are other pressing reasons for women to update their IDs quickly.

As stated before, those who don't have ID at all aren't voting anyway. Most of these people would be homeless or dependent, as renting or buying a place to live requires ID.
This really isn't a serious argument against voter ID.

The difficulties are quite real for some people, which is why most states still issue non-compliant IDs.

That seems to be the issue, the law has to be set for the poorest of our population. What is no problem for this board, is a big problem for many. The law HAS to take them into consideration.


And the poorest of the poor people have ID.

How do they survive in society without it? They wouldn't be able to.
EatMoreSalmon
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Sam Lowry said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


All of this has been addressed.
A state issued id is no cost for those who can't afford it. All state IDs are going to RealID that requires a birth certificate already.
A married woman has to update her state issued ID when her name is changed. When registering to vote, she can use her marriage certificate if necessary. This would be rare as her ID would most likely already be updated before the next federal election. Only women freshly married right before voting would be affected. There are other pressing reasons for women to update their IDs quickly.

As stated before, those who don't have ID at all aren't voting anyway. Most of these people would be homeless or dependent, as renting or buying a place to live requires ID.
This really isn't a serious argument against voter ID.

The difficulties are quite real for some people, which is why most states still issue non-compliant IDs.

So why is id required for marketplace insurance and Medicaid? It is a ridiculous argument. There are lots of ways people can get an id with lots of help available.
EatMoreSalmon
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Sam Lowry said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Sam Lowry said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

FLBear5630 said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

FLBear5630 said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

cowboycwr said:

FLBear5630 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

FLBear5630 said:

BearFan33 said:

FLBear5630 said:

GrowlTowel said:

FLBear5630 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

FLBear5630 said:

Archie3 said:

Perhaps ten years ago you could claim that Voter ID would harm Democrats due to their base being made of younger, less-white, poorer demographics (those who vote less and don't always have ID), but reality has begun to shift the other way. If you look at the data now, it's increasingly older, whiter, wealthier, more educated demographics that have become Democratic mainstays (Texas suburbs shifting blue is an example of this). It's part of why if you look at low-turnout elections, such as special elections, you're seeing substantial Democratic overperformance. The same demographics that vote frequently and have their papers are voting Democratic by increasing margins.

That said, I've always felt that, no matter the case, Voter ID should always be implemented. I think we need to make IDs a bit more straightforward to obtain- tons of people don't think to get their passport until they're going outside the country- but most countries around the world have stricter Voter ID laws than we do, and they manage just fine.

You guys are missing the point. It is a State decision, not Federal. Most States require some form of ID already.

If I am not mistaking only 11 do not require an ID. It is clear in the Constitution, it is up to the States to determine the manner of elections. I do not want anymore Federalism than we already have.

Once again, you're ironically missing the point.

The question is not one of federalism but why Democrats oppose improving election integrity.

Once again you are focusing on some particular problem of the day. These problems come and go. There are ALWAYS problems. The one thing that is constant for 250 years is the Constitution.

Voting is a State function. Clearly stated in the Constitution. THAT outwieighs any specific issue with the Democrats.

You have your priorities all wrong and if too many people think like you, we will lose our Nation. YOU DO NOT overstep the Constitution for some issue.

It is one thing to make a rational argument but to simply state the SAVE Act violates the Constitution with no authority to support your position is somewhat silly. The Feds have a lot to say about how states run their elections:

Moore v. Harper (2023) - The Elections Clause in Article I of the Constitution does not vest exclusive and independent authority in state legislatures to set the rules regarding federal elections.

Allen v. Milligan (2023) - A district is not equally open as required by Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act when minority voters (unlike their majority peers) face bloc voting along racial lines, arising against the backdrop of substantial racial discrimination within the state, that renders a minority vote unequal to a vote by a non-minority voter.

Brnovich v. DNC (2021) - To the extent that minority and non-minority groups differ with respect to employment, wealth, and education, even neutral regulations may result in some predictable disparities in rates of voting and non-compliance with voting rules. But the mere fact that there is some disparity in impact does not necessarily mean that a system is not equally open or that it does not give everyone an equal opportunity to vote.

Cooper v. Harris (2017) - A state may not use race as the predominant factor in drawing district lines unless it has a compelling reason.

Crawford v. Marion County Election Board (2008) - Even rational restrictions on the right to vote are invidious if they are unrelated to voter qualifications, but even-handed restrictions protecting the integrity and reliability of the electoral process are permissible. A state law's burden on a political party, an individual voter, or a discrete class of voters must be justified by relevant and legitimate state interests sufficiently weighty to justify the limitation.

Voting Rights Act (1965) - Authorized federal oversight of registration and required "preclearance" for changes to voting laws in specific jurisdictions, resulting in a dramatic increase in minority voter registration.

Reynolds v. Sims (1964) - The Equal Protection Clause requires substantially equal legislative representation for all citizens in a state, regardless of where they reside. Legislators represent people, rather than areas, and weighting votes differently according to where citizens happen to reside is discriminatory.

Wesberry v. Sanders (1964) - The constitutional requirement that representatives be chosen "by the people of the several states" means that, as nearly as is practicable, one person's vote in a congressional election must be worth as much as another person's vote.

Baker v. Carr (1962) - supra.





I never mentioned the SAVE act. I honestly don't know enough about it to comment one way or another. So, I really can't comment, I will take your word on it.


I said elections are a State responsibility and the Constitution clearly says "manner".

As for the Court cases, Roe vs Wade was on a similar list for abortion. Constitution said State. We are back to the States... We did a lot in the 60's that would not pass modern day muster Constitutionally.

So we will see. There are proponents on both sides, will be interesting.


Who wins when a state intentionally violates federal law?

It is a State right. Can't just change because we don't like it.

Do you think Democrats believe elections should be governed at the state level or the federal level?


I don't care what they want, the Constitution is the Constitution. That is where we differ, I dont care Dem, GOP, MAGA, Libertarian or Green.

If they break the law as you are concerned, prosecute them.


You keep going back to the Constitution but clearly you have no clue what it says.

Because if you did you would understand that it says elections are a state matter…. Unless Congress decides to make laws on it.

Here is the text


Section. 4.

The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.

So as you can see Congress absolutely can make laws on it making elections a federal matter.

So are you now on board since you see the Constitution actually says elections are federal? I assume you are since you want to follow the constitution so closely…..



Yes. Federal elections can have Congressional laws. State control their own state elections fully, unless they disenfranchise voters deliberately as in the Dixiecrat south. That is why states cannot have poll taxes or some made up test of voter aptitude to control legitimate voters.

Voter ID is a far cry from any of the old southern laws. It worked like a charm in GA where minority turnout has been higher since their reforms.


So you are good with Federal gun restrictions and a National abortion ruling.? If Congress can restrict Constitutional responsibilities. The Constitution os a guideline only.


This is exactly why no one can have a real conversation with you. The SAVE act has nothing in common with either of those issues. There is straight up constitutional authority for Congress to regulate federal elections.
Do you want Congress to abandon even more of their authority than they already have?

You don't want to have conversations on issues you don't agree on. Believe it or not, EVERY one of the issues I bring up are being argued in Courts, Congress or State Governments. I do not bring up ANYTHING without first researching it. You may think the SAVE Act is constitutional, but there are many who do not. Whether you agree or want to discuss with me does not make the argument go away. I am adamant that both sides be discussed, sometimes even if I don't personally agree. I could care less (By that, I mean it does not determine my view of someone) what your ultimate position is, as long as it is based on all information not an echo chamber.

We have a problem in this Country, since social media, of echo chambers and people only going to a site to get affirmation. My goal is bringing up the other side, so at least it is discussed.

On this point, sure it does. You are talking a Constitutional States right and allowing the Federal Government to regulate it. Ok, I will grant you the 2nd Amendment is extreme, but illustrates the point. Or a better example is Abortion, the Constitution clearly does not mention Health. So, it fits under 10th Amendment, but the Feds stepped in and was found unconstitutional.

Where is the line drawn? It is a hotly contested item, especially from the more independent States, like Alaska. Constitutionality and States rights is always a relevant issue, has been since 1776.




SAVE. act will survive any case brought against it.

Highly unlikely. Congress has no power to set qualifications for voting or even to limit it to citizens.

You are wrong on this for federal elections.

Justice Scalia disagreed:

Quote:

The Elections Clause empowers Congress to regulate how federal elections are held, but not who may vote in them. The Constitution prescribes a straightforward rule for the composition of the federal electorate. Article I, 2, cl. 1, provides that electors in each State for the House of Representatives "shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature," and the Seventeenth Amendment adopts the same criterion for senatorial elections. Cf. also Art. II, 1, cl. 2 ("Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct," presidential electors). One cannot read the Elections Clause as treating implicitly what these other constitutional provisions regulate explicitly. "It is difficult to see how words could be clearer in stating what Congress can control and what it cannot control. Surely nothing in these provisions lends itself to the view that voting qualifications in federal elections are to be set by Congress." Oregon v. Mitchell, 400 U. S. 112, 210 (1970) (Harlan, J., concurring in part and dissenting in part); see also U. S. Term Limits, 514 U. S., at 833834; Tashjian v. Republican Party of Conn., 479 U. S. 208 232 (1986) (Stevens, J., dissenting).

Prescribing voting qualifications, therefore, "forms no part of the power to be conferred upon the national government" by the Elections Clause, which is "expressly restricted to the regulation of the times, the places, and the manner of elections." The Federalist No. 60, at 371 (A. Hamilton); see also id., No. 52, at 326 (J. Madison). This allocation of authority sprang from the Framers' aversion to concentrated power. A Congress empowered to regulate the qualifications of its own electorate, Madison warned, could "by degrees subvert the Constitution." 2 Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, p. 250 (M. Farrand rev. 1966). At the same time, by tying the federal franchise to the state franchise instead of simply placing it within the unfettered discretion of state legislatures, the Framers avoided "render[ing] too dependent on the State governments that branch of the federal government which ought to be dependent on the people alone." The Federalist No. 52, at 326 (J. Madison).

Arizona v. Inter Tribal Council of Ariz., Inc., 570 US 1.



The citizenship requirement already in federal law has been in court numerous times and has not been struck down. Adding ID only strengthens the veracity of voter citizenship over a simple oath presently required. It was even considered in. the 1993 voting act by Congress.
whiterock
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Harrison Bergeron said:

Why should election integrity be illegal? Virtually every other country puts resources into ensuring fair and lawful elections; but Democrats continuously oppose.

Why? Why should fair and honest elections that only support democracy be remotely controversial?


Democrats oppose integrity because they must.

Again, i keep coming back to this: "how can I trust someone who believes in systemic oppression to faithfully administer the parts of the system they control?"

Answer is, I cannot. I can expect them to abuse, usurp, and/or destroy what they control in order to build their own utopias.
Sam Lowry
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It's been applied in court but never directly challenged, mainly because actual voting by noncitizens is so vanishingly rare. To enforce a ban preemptively, as this law does, would cause much more widespread problems. Here are a few examples of what happened with a similar law (later held unconstitutional) in Kansas.

Quote:

Plaintiff Donna Bucci is a U.S. citizen, a resident of Kansas and over 18 years old. She was born in Baltimore, Maryland. Ms. Bucci has been employed at the Kansas Department of Corrections for the last six years. She is a cook in the prison kitchen on the 3:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. shift. She is provided with limited time off, and must provide two-weeks' notice to use it. In 2013, Ms. Bucci applied to register to vote while renewing a Kansas driver's license at the DOV in Sedgwick County, Kansas. The driver's license examiner did not tell Ms. Bucci that she needed to provide proof of citizenship, and did not indicate that she lacked any necessary documentation. When she left the DOV, she believed she had registered to vote. Later, she received a notice in the mail informing her that she needed to show a birth certificate or a passport to become registered to vote. It did not include information about how to pursue the hearing process in K.S.A. 25-2309(m). Ms. Bucci does not possess a copy of her birth certificate or a passport. She cannot afford the cost of a replacement birth certificate from Maryland and she credibly testified that spending money to obtain one would impact whether she could pay rent. Ms. Bucci's voter registration application was canceled for failure to provide DPOC. She could not vote in the 2014 election, but was able to vote in the 2016 election by operation of the preliminary injunction. Ms. Bucci first learned of the alternative hearing procedure when defense counsel informed her of it during her deposition in this case. She testified that it would be hard for her to even participate in a telephonic hearing because she is not allowed to use her cell phone on a work break.

Plaintiff Charles Stricker is a U.S. citizen, a resident of Kansas, and over 18 years old. He was born in Missouri and has lived in Kansas since late 2013, after a period of living in Chicago. Prior to living in Chicago, Mr. Stricker lived in Kansas and was registered to vote in Kansas during that time. He works as a hotel manager in downtown Wichita. Mr. Stricker applied to register to vote while renewing a Kansas driver's license at the Sedgwick County DOV in October 2014. He was told that he had insufficient documentation, and a clerk provided him with a list of documents he needed. Mr. Stricker was attempting to register on the last day of registration before an election, it was so important to him to become registered that he took the day off work to accomplish it. Mr. Stricker rushed home and "grabbed every single document that I could and started shoving them into a file folder to try to get back before the DMV closed," including his birth certificate. He made it back to the DOV in time to complete his application, and recalls telling the clerk that he wanted to register to vote. The DOV clerk did not tell him that he needed any further documentation to register. The clerk printed a small receipt for Mr. Stricker and explained to him that it would be his temporary driver's license until he received his license in the mail. He asked the clerk if there was anything else he needed to do, including whether he needed a voting card. The clerk told him nothing more was necessary. He believed that he was registered to vote.

Mr. Stricker attempted to vote in the 2014 midterm election. He presented his driver's license to the poll worker, but she could not find a record of his registration. He was given a provisional ballot to fill out at an open table with another voter. Mr. Stricker testified that he was confused and embarrassed by the experience. Election day was the first time Mr. Stricker learned that he was not registered to vote. He testified that he learned about the DPOC law sometime later through a press report and wondered if it could explain why he was not allowed to vote. He does not recall receiving any notices from Sedgwick County asking him to provide proof of citizenship.

In 2015, Mr. Stricker's voter registration application was canceled in the ELVIS system. His registration was reinstated by operation of the preliminary injunction on June 22, 2016. At some point in advance of the November 2016 election, Mr. Stricker attempted to check his registration status online and by calling the Sedgwick County election office. The person with whom he spoke told him that it was unclear whether he would be able to vote in the upcoming election because there were legal issues that were still up in the air. When he checked online, there was no record of his registration. On October 26, 2016, the Sedgwick County Election Office sent Mr. Stricker a "Notice of Voter Registration Status." It states:

This notice is to inform you that you have been granted full voter registration status in Kansas and that you are qualified to vote in all official elections in which voters in your precinct are eligible to participate. According to Kansas Statutes Annotated 25, 2309(l), any person registering to vote for the first time in Kansas on or after January 1, 2013, must provide evidence of United States citizenship along with the registration application in order to be granted full registration status. Our records indicate that you submitted a voter registration application during the above-mentioned time period, but you did not provide evidence of your U.S. citizenship. We have since received information from the Kansas Department of Health and Environment's Office of Vital Statistics indicating that you have a Kansas birth certificate on file. Based on that determination, your registration status is deemed complete, and we have granted you full voter registration status.

This notice was signed by Tabitha Lehman, the Sedgwick County Election Commissioner. Ms. Lehman testified that, despite Fed. R. Evid. 615 being invoked at the beginning of trial, she read media reports about the trial, including reports of Mr. Stricker's testimony. She testified that ELVIS records indicate Mr. Stricker is active and "fully registered," and that after reviewing his file prior to her testimony, she believes that the notice he received erroneously referenced his Kansas birth certificate, when in fact his citizenship document was in the DOV's database. She testified that in October 2016, just prior to the election, her office had not updated the generic notice sent to applicants whose DPOC was verified by the county to include the DOV database check, a policy that had changed in May 2016. Therefore, between May 2016 when the DOV policy went into effect, and the 2016 election, Sedgwick County--the second largest county in the State--was apparently sending out erroneous and confusing notices to individuals stating that citizenship was confirmed through the department that maintains Kansas birth certificates, when in fact that was not true.

Since the DPOC law was passed, 6 individuals have applied for a hearing under 25-2309(m) with the State Election Board. One of these individuals, Ms. Jo French, lost her birth certificate after moving several times. She testified about the lengthy and burdensome process of registering to vote without a citizenship document. Ms. French's many encounters with the SOS's office led her to characterize her relationship with former-Deputy SOS Eric Rucker as a friendship. She testified that she hoped her testimony would make Defendant "look good." But her testimony contradicted Defendant's position that the DPOC requirement is not burdensome. As she testified, Ms. French's first of many hurdles was to pay $8 for the State of Arkansas to search for her birth certificate to prove that it did not exist, even though she already knew did not exist because she had requested it twice before. Second, she had to collect documents with the help of several other people--her baptismal record through an old friend in Arkansas and school records from her old school district in Arkansas. Third, she spoke with Mr. Rucker, who in turn reached out to her friends and cousin to vouch for her citizenship. Fourth, Ms. French relied on a friend to drive her 40 miles to the hearing; it was difficult for her to drive because she had recently had knee replacement surgery.

Ms. French's hearing before the State Election Board lasted 30 to 35 minutes and was attended by Defendant, the Lieutenant Governor, and a representative from the Kansas Attorney General's office. Also present were members of the media. The entire process from application to the date of her hearing took more than five months. After the hearing, Ms. French was interviewed, and stated: "I just thought it was strange that I had to go through this procedure to be able to vote. And any other state, you go in, throw down your driver's license and that gives you the right to vote. So this was totally off the wall for me. . . . I don't look funny. I don't talk funny, I've been here all my life."

The hearing records contain information on the other four individuals who availed themselves of the hearing process. One established citizenship through a hearing and was represented by retained counsel. Another individual, Mr. Dale Weber, stated that he did not possess DPOC and that procuring such a document would be cost-prohibitive. The State Election Board ultimately accepted an affidavit that Mr. Weber executed on his own behalf as proof of his citizenship, attesting that he had been born on a military base and was a U.S. citizen. The State Election Board apparently found that Mr. Weber's mere attestation was sufficient to establish his citizenship.

Note that, after all the unnecessary hurdles imposed by the state, a simple oath turned out to be sufficient after all. These are the kind of people that "election integrity" laws are actually targeting, not mythical alien voters as Republicans would have you believe. The whole purpose is to create as many obstacles and disenfranchise as many voters as possible, especially minorities and the poor.
Harrison Bergeron
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Name one legally registered to vote person who cannot secure an ID.

One.

Name one person.

Are the poor excluding from voting in Europe?
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Sam Lowry said:

It's been applied in court but never directly challenged, mainly because actual voting by noncitizens is so vanishingly rare. To enforce a ban preemptively, as this law does, would cause much more widespread problems. Here are a few examples of what happened with a similar law (later held unconstitutional) in Kansas.

Quote:

Plaintiff Donna Bucci is a U.S. citizen, a resident of Kansas and over 18 years old. She was born in Baltimore, Maryland. Ms. Bucci has been employed at the Kansas Department of Corrections for the last six years. She is a cook in the prison kitchen on the 3:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. shift. She is provided with limited time off, and must provide two-weeks' notice to use it. In 2013, Ms. Bucci applied to register to vote while renewing a Kansas driver's license at the DOV in Sedgwick County, Kansas. The driver's license examiner did not tell Ms. Bucci that she needed to provide proof of citizenship, and did not indicate that she lacked any necessary documentation. When she left the DOV, she believed she had registered to vote. Later, she received a notice in the mail informing her that she needed to show a birth certificate or a passport to become registered to vote. It did not include information about how to pursue the hearing process in K.S.A. 25-2309(m). Ms. Bucci does not possess a copy of her birth certificate or a passport. She cannot afford the cost of a replacement birth certificate from Maryland and she credibly testified that spending money to obtain one would impact whether she could pay rent. Ms. Bucci's voter registration application was canceled for failure to provide DPOC. She could not vote in the 2014 election, but was able to vote in the 2016 election by operation of the preliminary injunction. Ms. Bucci first learned of the alternative hearing procedure when defense counsel informed her of it during her deposition in this case. She testified that it would be hard for her to even participate in a telephonic hearing because she is not allowed to use her cell phone on a work break.

Plaintiff Charles Stricker is a U.S. citizen, a resident of Kansas, and over 18 years old. He was born in Missouri and has lived in Kansas since late 2013, after a period of living in Chicago. Prior to living in Chicago, Mr. Stricker lived in Kansas and was registered to vote in Kansas during that time. He works as a hotel manager in downtown Wichita. Mr. Stricker applied to register to vote while renewing a Kansas driver's license at the Sedgwick County DOV in October 2014. He was told that he had insufficient documentation, and a clerk provided him with a list of documents he needed. Mr. Stricker was attempting to register on the last day of registration before an election, it was so important to him to become registered that he took the day off work to accomplish it. Mr. Stricker rushed home and "grabbed every single document that I could and started shoving them into a file folder to try to get back before the DMV closed," including his birth certificate. He made it back to the DOV in time to complete his application, and recalls telling the clerk that he wanted to register to vote. The DOV clerk did not tell him that he needed any further documentation to register. The clerk printed a small receipt for Mr. Stricker and explained to him that it would be his temporary driver's license until he received his license in the mail. He asked the clerk if there was anything else he needed to do, including whether he needed a voting card. The clerk told him nothing more was necessary. He believed that he was registered to vote.

Mr. Stricker attempted to vote in the 2014 midterm election. He presented his driver's license to the poll worker, but she could not find a record of his registration. He was given a provisional ballot to fill out at an open table with another voter. Mr. Stricker testified that he was confused and embarrassed by the experience. Election day was the first time Mr. Stricker learned that he was not registered to vote. He testified that he learned about the DPOC law sometime later through a press report and wondered if it could explain why he was not allowed to vote. He does not recall receiving any notices from Sedgwick County asking him to provide proof of citizenship.

In 2015, Mr. Stricker's voter registration application was canceled in the ELVIS system. His registration was reinstated by operation of the preliminary injunction on June 22, 2016. At some point in advance of the November 2016 election, Mr. Stricker attempted to check his registration status online and by calling the Sedgwick County election office. The person with whom he spoke told him that it was unclear whether he would be able to vote in the upcoming election because there were legal issues that were still up in the air. When he checked online, there was no record of his registration. On October 26, 2016, the Sedgwick County Election Office sent Mr. Stricker a "Notice of Voter Registration Status." It states:

This notice is to inform you that you have been granted full voter registration status in Kansas and that you are qualified to vote in all official elections in which voters in your precinct are eligible to participate. According to Kansas Statutes Annotated 25, 2309(l), any person registering to vote for the first time in Kansas on or after January 1, 2013, must provide evidence of United States citizenship along with the registration application in order to be granted full registration status. Our records indicate that you submitted a voter registration application during the above-mentioned time period, but you did not provide evidence of your U.S. citizenship. We have since received information from the Kansas Department of Health and Environment's Office of Vital Statistics indicating that you have a Kansas birth certificate on file. Based on that determination, your registration status is deemed complete, and we have granted you full voter registration status.

This notice was signed by Tabitha Lehman, the Sedgwick County Election Commissioner. Ms. Lehman testified that, despite Fed. R. Evid. 615 being invoked at the beginning of trial, she read media reports about the trial, including reports of Mr. Stricker's testimony. She testified that ELVIS records indicate Mr. Stricker is active and "fully registered," and that after reviewing his file prior to her testimony, she believes that the notice he received erroneously referenced his Kansas birth certificate, when in fact his citizenship document was in the DOV's database. She testified that in October 2016, just prior to the election, her office had not updated the generic notice sent to applicants whose DPOC was verified by the county to include the DOV database check, a policy that had changed in May 2016. Therefore, between May 2016 when the DOV policy went into effect, and the 2016 election, Sedgwick County--the second largest county in the State--was apparently sending out erroneous and confusing notices to individuals stating that citizenship was confirmed through the department that maintains Kansas birth certificates, when in fact that was not true.

Since the DPOC law was passed, 6 individuals have applied for a hearing under 25-2309(m) with the State Election Board. One of these individuals, Ms. Jo French, lost her birth certificate after moving several times. She testified about the lengthy and burdensome process of registering to vote without a citizenship document. Ms. French's many encounters with the SOS's office led her to characterize her relationship with former-Deputy SOS Eric Rucker as a friendship. She testified that she hoped her testimony would make Defendant "look good." But her testimony contradicted Defendant's position that the DPOC requirement is not burdensome. As she testified, Ms. French's first of many hurdles was to pay $8 for the State of Arkansas to search for her birth certificate to prove that it did not exist, even though she already knew did not exist because she had requested it twice before. Second, she had to collect documents with the help of several other people--her baptismal record through an old friend in Arkansas and school records from her old school district in Arkansas. Third, she spoke with Mr. Rucker, who in turn reached out to her friends and cousin to vouch for her citizenship. Fourth, Ms. French relied on a friend to drive her 40 miles to the hearing; it was difficult for her to drive because she had recently had knee replacement surgery.

Ms. French's hearing before the State Election Board lasted 30 to 35 minutes and was attended by Defendant, the Lieutenant Governor, and a representative from the Kansas Attorney General's office. Also present were members of the media. The entire process from application to the date of her hearing took more than five months. After the hearing, Ms. French was interviewed, and stated: "I just thought it was strange that I had to go through this procedure to be able to vote. And any other state, you go in, throw down your driver's license and that gives you the right to vote. So this was totally off the wall for me. . . . I don't look funny. I don't talk funny, I've been here all my life."

The hearing records contain information on the other four individuals who availed themselves of the hearing process. One established citizenship through a hearing and was represented by retained counsel. Another individual, Mr. Dale Weber, stated that he did not possess DPOC and that procuring such a document would be cost-prohibitive. The State Election Board ultimately accepted an affidavit that Mr. Weber executed on his own behalf as proof of his citizenship, attesting that he had been born on a military base and was a U.S. citizen. The State Election Board apparently found that Mr. Weber's mere attestation was sufficient to establish his citizenship.

Note that, after all the unnecessary hurdles imposed by the state, a simple oath turned out to be sufficient after all. These are the kind of people that "election integrity" laws are actually targeting, not mythical alien voters as Republicans would have you believe. The whole purpose is create as many obstacles and disenfranchise as many voters as possible, especially minorities and the poor.

^^^ Bigotry and racism of low expectations.
Mitch Blood Green
How long do you want to ignore this user?
cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.
Harrison Bergeron
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


Name one legally registered to vote person who cannot secure an ID.

One.

Name one person.

Are the poor excluding from voting in Europe?
cowboycwr
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.
Mitch Blood Green
How long do you want to ignore this user?
cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.
Harrison Bergeron
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


Name one legally registered to vote person who cannot secure an ID.

One.

Name one person.

Are the poor excluding from voting in Europe?
cowboycwr
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


lol. More deflections not based in reality.

Again. Everyone has an ID. It is impossible to participate in today's society without one. There are just too many times a person needs an ID to function for them to not have one.

KaiBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


You don't even believe this silliness.

Joe Biden ' Earned your vote' because he intentionally invited millions of unvetted illegals into our country.

Thousands of US citizens have been assaulted, raped, robbed , murdered and killed by illegal drivers…..as a result of your hero's actions.

And you never gave a **** because Joe Biden was giving you what you wanted most.

The permanent destruction of the traditional culture of the United States.

And if thousands of others were harmed it was a price you were willing to pay….as long as the damage didn't happen to a member of your family.

And for the exact same objectives you welcome the votes cast by people who are not entitled to vote.

Everything else you type is just a smokescreen.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
KaiBear said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


You don't even believe this silliness.

Joe Biden ' Earned your vote' because he intentionally invited millions of unvetted illegals into our country.

Thousands of US citizens have been assaulted, raped, robbed , murdered and killed by illegal drivers…..as a result of your hero's actions.

And you never gave a **** because Joe Biden was giving you what you wanted most.

The permanent destruction of the traditional culture of the United States.

And if thousands of others were harmed it was a price you were willing to pay….as long as the damage didn't happen to a member of your family.

And for the exact same objectives you welcome the votes cast by people who are not entitled to vote.

Everything else you type is just a smokescreen.

Mitch Blood Green
How long do you want to ignore this user?
cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


lol. More deflections not based in reality.

Again. Everyone has an ID. It is impossible to participate in today's society without one. There are just too many times a person needs an ID to function for them to not have one.




I don't hear you saying we should pay for it. It's not ID. It's a non problem looking for a solution.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/noncitizens-are-not-voting-federal-or-state-elections-heres-why
Harrison Bergeron
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


lol. More deflections not based in reality.

Again. Everyone has an ID. It is impossible to participate in today's society without one. There are just too many times a person needs an ID to function for them to not have one.




I don't hear you saying we should pay for it. It's not ID. It's a non problem looking for a solution.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/noncitizens-are-not-voting-federal-or-state-elections-heres-why


Then you should not have any objection to voter ID requirements.

Name one legally registered to vote person who cannot secure an ID.

One.

Name one person.

Are the poor excluding from voting in Europe?
ShooterTX
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

It's been applied in court but never directly challenged, mainly because actual voting by noncitizens is so vanishingly rare. To enforce a ban preemptively, as this law does, would cause much more widespread problems. Here are a few examples of what happened with a similar law (later held unconstitutional) in Kansas.

Quote:

Plaintiff Donna Bucci is a U.S. citizen, a resident of Kansas and over 18 years old. She was born in Baltimore, Maryland. Ms. Bucci has been employed at the Kansas Department of Corrections for the last six years. She is a cook in the prison kitchen on the 3:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. shift. She is provided with limited time off, and must provide two-weeks' notice to use it. In 2013, Ms. Bucci applied to register to vote while renewing a Kansas driver's license at the DOV in Sedgwick County, Kansas. The driver's license examiner did not tell Ms. Bucci that she needed to provide proof of citizenship, and did not indicate that she lacked any necessary documentation. When she left the DOV, she believed she had registered to vote. Later, she received a notice in the mail informing her that she needed to show a birth certificate or a passport to become registered to vote. It did not include information about how to pursue the hearing process in K.S.A. 25-2309(m). Ms. Bucci does not possess a copy of her birth certificate or a passport. She cannot afford the cost of a replacement birth certificate from Maryland and she credibly testified that spending money to obtain one would impact whether she could pay rent. Ms. Bucci's voter registration application was canceled for failure to provide DPOC. She could not vote in the 2014 election, but was able to vote in the 2016 election by operation of the preliminary injunction. Ms. Bucci first learned of the alternative hearing procedure when defense counsel informed her of it during her deposition in this case. She testified that it would be hard for her to even participate in a telephonic hearing because she is not allowed to use her cell phone on a work break.

Plaintiff Charles Stricker is a U.S. citizen, a resident of Kansas, and over 18 years old. He was born in Missouri and has lived in Kansas since late 2013, after a period of living in Chicago. Prior to living in Chicago, Mr. Stricker lived in Kansas and was registered to vote in Kansas during that time. He works as a hotel manager in downtown Wichita. Mr. Stricker applied to register to vote while renewing a Kansas driver's license at the Sedgwick County DOV in October 2014. He was told that he had insufficient documentation, and a clerk provided him with a list of documents he needed. Mr. Stricker was attempting to register on the last day of registration before an election, it was so important to him to become registered that he took the day off work to accomplish it. Mr. Stricker rushed home and "grabbed every single document that I could and started shoving them into a file folder to try to get back before the DMV closed," including his birth certificate. He made it back to the DOV in time to complete his application, and recalls telling the clerk that he wanted to register to vote. The DOV clerk did not tell him that he needed any further documentation to register. The clerk printed a small receipt for Mr. Stricker and explained to him that it would be his temporary driver's license until he received his license in the mail. He asked the clerk if there was anything else he needed to do, including whether he needed a voting card. The clerk told him nothing more was necessary. He believed that he was registered to vote.

Mr. Stricker attempted to vote in the 2014 midterm election. He presented his driver's license to the poll worker, but she could not find a record of his registration. He was given a provisional ballot to fill out at an open table with another voter. Mr. Stricker testified that he was confused and embarrassed by the experience. Election day was the first time Mr. Stricker learned that he was not registered to vote. He testified that he learned about the DPOC law sometime later through a press report and wondered if it could explain why he was not allowed to vote. He does not recall receiving any notices from Sedgwick County asking him to provide proof of citizenship.

In 2015, Mr. Stricker's voter registration application was canceled in the ELVIS system. His registration was reinstated by operation of the preliminary injunction on June 22, 2016. At some point in advance of the November 2016 election, Mr. Stricker attempted to check his registration status online and by calling the Sedgwick County election office. The person with whom he spoke told him that it was unclear whether he would be able to vote in the upcoming election because there were legal issues that were still up in the air. When he checked online, there was no record of his registration. On October 26, 2016, the Sedgwick County Election Office sent Mr. Stricker a "Notice of Voter Registration Status." It states:

This notice is to inform you that you have been granted full voter registration status in Kansas and that you are qualified to vote in all official elections in which voters in your precinct are eligible to participate. According to Kansas Statutes Annotated 25, 2309(l), any person registering to vote for the first time in Kansas on or after January 1, 2013, must provide evidence of United States citizenship along with the registration application in order to be granted full registration status. Our records indicate that you submitted a voter registration application during the above-mentioned time period, but you did not provide evidence of your U.S. citizenship. We have since received information from the Kansas Department of Health and Environment's Office of Vital Statistics indicating that you have a Kansas birth certificate on file. Based on that determination, your registration status is deemed complete, and we have granted you full voter registration status.

This notice was signed by Tabitha Lehman, the Sedgwick County Election Commissioner. Ms. Lehman testified that, despite Fed. R. Evid. 615 being invoked at the beginning of trial, she read media reports about the trial, including reports of Mr. Stricker's testimony. She testified that ELVIS records indicate Mr. Stricker is active and "fully registered," and that after reviewing his file prior to her testimony, she believes that the notice he received erroneously referenced his Kansas birth certificate, when in fact his citizenship document was in the DOV's database. She testified that in October 2016, just prior to the election, her office had not updated the generic notice sent to applicants whose DPOC was verified by the county to include the DOV database check, a policy that had changed in May 2016. Therefore, between May 2016 when the DOV policy went into effect, and the 2016 election, Sedgwick County--the second largest county in the State--was apparently sending out erroneous and confusing notices to individuals stating that citizenship was confirmed through the department that maintains Kansas birth certificates, when in fact that was not true.

Since the DPOC law was passed, 6 individuals have applied for a hearing under 25-2309(m) with the State Election Board. One of these individuals, Ms. Jo French, lost her birth certificate after moving several times. She testified about the lengthy and burdensome process of registering to vote without a citizenship document. Ms. French's many encounters with the SOS's office led her to characterize her relationship with former-Deputy SOS Eric Rucker as a friendship. She testified that she hoped her testimony would make Defendant "look good." But her testimony contradicted Defendant's position that the DPOC requirement is not burdensome. As she testified, Ms. French's first of many hurdles was to pay $8 for the State of Arkansas to search for her birth certificate to prove that it did not exist, even though she already knew did not exist because she had requested it twice before. Second, she had to collect documents with the help of several other people--her baptismal record through an old friend in Arkansas and school records from her old school district in Arkansas. Third, she spoke with Mr. Rucker, who in turn reached out to her friends and cousin to vouch for her citizenship. Fourth, Ms. French relied on a friend to drive her 40 miles to the hearing; it was difficult for her to drive because she had recently had knee replacement surgery.

Ms. French's hearing before the State Election Board lasted 30 to 35 minutes and was attended by Defendant, the Lieutenant Governor, and a representative from the Kansas Attorney General's office. Also present were members of the media. The entire process from application to the date of her hearing took more than five months. After the hearing, Ms. French was interviewed, and stated: "I just thought it was strange that I had to go through this procedure to be able to vote. And any other state, you go in, throw down your driver's license and that gives you the right to vote. So this was totally off the wall for me. . . . I don't look funny. I don't talk funny, I've been here all my life."

The hearing records contain information on the other four individuals who availed themselves of the hearing process. One established citizenship through a hearing and was represented by retained counsel. Another individual, Mr. Dale Weber, stated that he did not possess DPOC and that procuring such a document would be cost-prohibitive. The State Election Board ultimately accepted an affidavit that Mr. Weber executed on his own behalf as proof of his citizenship, attesting that he had been born on a military base and was a U.S. citizen. The State Election Board apparently found that Mr. Weber's mere attestation was sufficient to establish his citizenship.

Note that, after all the unnecessary hurdles imposed by the state, a simple oath turned out to be sufficient after all. These are the kind of people that "election integrity" laws are actually targeting, not mythical alien voters as Republicans would have you believe. The whole purpose is create as many obstacles and disenfranchise as many voters as possible, especially minorities and the poor.


This is such bull*****
She couldn't afford to buy a replacement? It literally costs $15 to get a copy from the state of Missouri.
People who don't care enough to get their documents, shouldn't be voting.
It shouldn't be easier to vote than it is to get a pack of cigarettes.

When I was in college I needed to get a passport, but my parents had lost my birth certificate. So I went to the courthouse and paid a few bucks and got a copy. About 8 years ago we moved to a new house. Last year we needed to get a passport for my daughter but we couldn't find her social security card. It was lost during the move. So we spent over 6 months waiting for it to arrive in the mail.
Is it difficult to get replacement documents... not really. Is it an inconvenience... yes.
If someone cannot be bothered to go through a very minor inconvenience, then they shouldn't be voting in the first place.
Everyone should be required to vote in person. It should require SOME level of personal investment.

If youre too lazy to comply.... that's a YOU problem. We don't need to worry about lazy people voting.
ShooterTX
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ShooterTX said:

Sam Lowry said:

It's been applied in court but never directly challenged, mainly because actual voting by noncitizens is so vanishingly rare. To enforce a ban preemptively, as this law does, would cause much more widespread problems. Here are a few examples of what happened with a similar law (later held unconstitutional) in Kansas.

Quote:

Plaintiff Donna Bucci is a U.S. citizen, a resident of Kansas and over 18 years old. She was born in Baltimore, Maryland. Ms. Bucci has been employed at the Kansas Department of Corrections for the last six years. She is a cook in the prison kitchen on the 3:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. shift. She is provided with limited time off, and must provide two-weeks' notice to use it. In 2013, Ms. Bucci applied to register to vote while renewing a Kansas driver's license at the DOV in Sedgwick County, Kansas. The driver's license examiner did not tell Ms. Bucci that she needed to provide proof of citizenship, and did not indicate that she lacked any necessary documentation. When she left the DOV, she believed she had registered to vote. Later, she received a notice in the mail informing her that she needed to show a birth certificate or a passport to become registered to vote. It did not include information about how to pursue the hearing process in K.S.A. 25-2309(m). Ms. Bucci does not possess a copy of her birth certificate or a passport. She cannot afford the cost of a replacement birth certificate from Maryland and she credibly testified that spending money to obtain one would impact whether she could pay rent. Ms. Bucci's voter registration application was canceled for failure to provide DPOC. She could not vote in the 2014 election, but was able to vote in the 2016 election by operation of the preliminary injunction. Ms. Bucci first learned of the alternative hearing procedure when defense counsel informed her of it during her deposition in this case. She testified that it would be hard for her to even participate in a telephonic hearing because she is not allowed to use her cell phone on a work break.

Plaintiff Charles Stricker is a U.S. citizen, a resident of Kansas, and over 18 years old. He was born in Missouri and has lived in Kansas since late 2013, after a period of living in Chicago. Prior to living in Chicago, Mr. Stricker lived in Kansas and was registered to vote in Kansas during that time. He works as a hotel manager in downtown Wichita. Mr. Stricker applied to register to vote while renewing a Kansas driver's license at the Sedgwick County DOV in October 2014. He was told that he had insufficient documentation, and a clerk provided him with a list of documents he needed. Mr. Stricker was attempting to register on the last day of registration before an election, it was so important to him to become registered that he took the day off work to accomplish it. Mr. Stricker rushed home and "grabbed every single document that I could and started shoving them into a file folder to try to get back before the DMV closed," including his birth certificate. He made it back to the DOV in time to complete his application, and recalls telling the clerk that he wanted to register to vote. The DOV clerk did not tell him that he needed any further documentation to register. The clerk printed a small receipt for Mr. Stricker and explained to him that it would be his temporary driver's license until he received his license in the mail. He asked the clerk if there was anything else he needed to do, including whether he needed a voting card. The clerk told him nothing more was necessary. He believed that he was registered to vote.

Mr. Stricker attempted to vote in the 2014 midterm election. He presented his driver's license to the poll worker, but she could not find a record of his registration. He was given a provisional ballot to fill out at an open table with another voter. Mr. Stricker testified that he was confused and embarrassed by the experience. Election day was the first time Mr. Stricker learned that he was not registered to vote. He testified that he learned about the DPOC law sometime later through a press report and wondered if it could explain why he was not allowed to vote. He does not recall receiving any notices from Sedgwick County asking him to provide proof of citizenship.

In 2015, Mr. Stricker's voter registration application was canceled in the ELVIS system. His registration was reinstated by operation of the preliminary injunction on June 22, 2016. At some point in advance of the November 2016 election, Mr. Stricker attempted to check his registration status online and by calling the Sedgwick County election office. The person with whom he spoke told him that it was unclear whether he would be able to vote in the upcoming election because there were legal issues that were still up in the air. When he checked online, there was no record of his registration. On October 26, 2016, the Sedgwick County Election Office sent Mr. Stricker a "Notice of Voter Registration Status." It states:

This notice is to inform you that you have been granted full voter registration status in Kansas and that you are qualified to vote in all official elections in which voters in your precinct are eligible to participate. According to Kansas Statutes Annotated 25, 2309(l), any person registering to vote for the first time in Kansas on or after January 1, 2013, must provide evidence of United States citizenship along with the registration application in order to be granted full registration status. Our records indicate that you submitted a voter registration application during the above-mentioned time period, but you did not provide evidence of your U.S. citizenship. We have since received information from the Kansas Department of Health and Environment's Office of Vital Statistics indicating that you have a Kansas birth certificate on file. Based on that determination, your registration status is deemed complete, and we have granted you full voter registration status.

This notice was signed by Tabitha Lehman, the Sedgwick County Election Commissioner. Ms. Lehman testified that, despite Fed. R. Evid. 615 being invoked at the beginning of trial, she read media reports about the trial, including reports of Mr. Stricker's testimony. She testified that ELVIS records indicate Mr. Stricker is active and "fully registered," and that after reviewing his file prior to her testimony, she believes that the notice he received erroneously referenced his Kansas birth certificate, when in fact his citizenship document was in the DOV's database. She testified that in October 2016, just prior to the election, her office had not updated the generic notice sent to applicants whose DPOC was verified by the county to include the DOV database check, a policy that had changed in May 2016. Therefore, between May 2016 when the DOV policy went into effect, and the 2016 election, Sedgwick County--the second largest county in the State--was apparently sending out erroneous and confusing notices to individuals stating that citizenship was confirmed through the department that maintains Kansas birth certificates, when in fact that was not true.

Since the DPOC law was passed, 6 individuals have applied for a hearing under 25-2309(m) with the State Election Board. One of these individuals, Ms. Jo French, lost her birth certificate after moving several times. She testified about the lengthy and burdensome process of registering to vote without a citizenship document. Ms. French's many encounters with the SOS's office led her to characterize her relationship with former-Deputy SOS Eric Rucker as a friendship. She testified that she hoped her testimony would make Defendant "look good." But her testimony contradicted Defendant's position that the DPOC requirement is not burdensome. As she testified, Ms. French's first of many hurdles was to pay $8 for the State of Arkansas to search for her birth certificate to prove that it did not exist, even though she already knew did not exist because she had requested it twice before. Second, she had to collect documents with the help of several other people--her baptismal record through an old friend in Arkansas and school records from her old school district in Arkansas. Third, she spoke with Mr. Rucker, who in turn reached out to her friends and cousin to vouch for her citizenship. Fourth, Ms. French relied on a friend to drive her 40 miles to the hearing; it was difficult for her to drive because she had recently had knee replacement surgery.

Ms. French's hearing before the State Election Board lasted 30 to 35 minutes and was attended by Defendant, the Lieutenant Governor, and a representative from the Kansas Attorney General's office. Also present were members of the media. The entire process from application to the date of her hearing took more than five months. After the hearing, Ms. French was interviewed, and stated: "I just thought it was strange that I had to go through this procedure to be able to vote. And any other state, you go in, throw down your driver's license and that gives you the right to vote. So this was totally off the wall for me. . . . I don't look funny. I don't talk funny, I've been here all my life."

The hearing records contain information on the other four individuals who availed themselves of the hearing process. One established citizenship through a hearing and was represented by retained counsel. Another individual, Mr. Dale Weber, stated that he did not possess DPOC and that procuring such a document would be cost-prohibitive. The State Election Board ultimately accepted an affidavit that Mr. Weber executed on his own behalf as proof of his citizenship, attesting that he had been born on a military base and was a U.S. citizen. The State Election Board apparently found that Mr. Weber's mere attestation was sufficient to establish his citizenship.

Note that, after all the unnecessary hurdles imposed by the state, a simple oath turned out to be sufficient after all. These are the kind of people that "election integrity" laws are actually targeting, not mythical alien voters as Republicans would have you believe. The whole purpose is create as many obstacles and disenfranchise as many voters as possible, especially minorities and the poor.


This is such bull*****
She couldn't afford to buy a replacement? It literally costs $15 to get a copy from the state of Missouri.
People who don't care enough to get their documents, shouldn't be voting.
It shouldn't be easier to vote than it is to get a pack of cigarettes.

When I was in college I needed to get a passport, but my parents had lost my birth certificate. So I went to the courthouse and paid a few bucks and got a copy. About 8 years ago we moved to a new house. Last year we needed to get a passport for my daughter but we couldn't find her social security card. It was lost during the move. So we spent over 6 months waiting for it to arrive in the mail.
Is it difficult to get replacement documents... not really. Is it an inconvenience... yes.
If someone cannot be bothered to go through a very minor inconvenience, then they shouldn't be voting in the first place.
Everyone should be required to vote in person. It should require SOME level of personal investment.

If youre too lazy to comply.... that's a YOU problem. We don't need to worry about lazy people voting.


Don't disagree with you. Just think it is a State issue, not Federal. Even IF Fed can do it, they shouldn't. Leave to States.
KaiBear
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Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


You don't even believe this silliness.

Joe Biden ' Earned your vote' because he intentionally invited millions of unvetted illegals into our country.

Thousands of US citizens have been assaulted, raped, robbed , murdered and killed by illegal drivers…..as a result of your hero's actions.

And you never gave a **** because Joe Biden was giving you what you wanted most.

The permanent destruction of the traditional culture of the United States.

And if thousands of others were harmed it was a price you were willing to pay….as long as the damage didn't happen to a member of your family.

And for the exact same objectives you welcome the votes cast by people who are not entitled to vote.

Everything else you type is just a smokescreen.



Proof positive the money spent on law school was not, in fact, wasted.

Besides, billable hours are so 80's.



GrowlTowel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


All of this has been addressed.
A state issued id is no cost for those who can't afford it. All state IDs are going to RealID that requires a birth certificate already.
A married woman has to update her state issued ID when her name is changed. When registering to vote, she can use her marriage certificate if necessary. This would be rare as her ID would most likely already be updated before the next federal election. Only women freshly married right before voting would be affected. There are other pressing reasons for women to update their IDs quickly.

As stated before, those who don't have ID at all aren't voting anyway. Most of these people would be homeless or dependent, as renting or buying a place to live requires ID.
This really isn't a serious argument against voter ID.

The difficulties are quite real for some people, which is why most states still issue non-compliant IDs.


You would think by now someone would post a study illustrating the disenfranchisement in states with voter ID. If it is so real, certainly there are some studies that prove it as opposed to these hypotheses about people that will be disenfranchised.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GrowlTowel said:

Sam Lowry said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


All of this has been addressed.
A state issued id is no cost for those who can't afford it. All state IDs are going to RealID that requires a birth certificate already.
A married woman has to update her state issued ID when her name is changed. When registering to vote, she can use her marriage certificate if necessary. This would be rare as her ID would most likely already be updated before the next federal election. Only women freshly married right before voting would be affected. There are other pressing reasons for women to update their IDs quickly.

As stated before, those who don't have ID at all aren't voting anyway. Most of these people would be homeless or dependent, as renting or buying a place to live requires ID.
This really isn't a serious argument against voter ID.

The difficulties are quite real for some people, which is why most states still issue non-compliant IDs.


You would think by now someone would post a study illustrating the disenfranchisement in states with voter ID. If it is so real, certainly there are some studies that prove it as opposed to these hypotheses about people that will be disenfranchised.

No doubt the impact of a good peer-reviewed study in this forum would be seismic.
cowboycwr
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


lol. More deflections not based in reality.

Again. Everyone has an ID. It is impossible to participate in today's society without one. There are just too many times a person needs an ID to function for them to not have one.




I don't hear you saying we should pay for it. It's not ID. It's a non problem looking for a solution.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/noncitizens-are-not-voting-federal-or-state-elections-heres-why


No functioning adult can participate in society without an ID.

Everyone has one. To claim otherwise is flat out lying.

You need an ID to enroll your children in school. And yet we don't have a huge wave of poor kids not getting enrolled.

You need an ID to get a job, government benefits, buy things, etc.

And yet people do all of those things daily.

The claim that people don't have an ID is a false one.
Harrison Bergeron
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GrowlTowel said:

Sam Lowry said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


All of this has been addressed.
A state issued id is no cost for those who can't afford it. All state IDs are going to RealID that requires a birth certificate already.
A married woman has to update her state issued ID when her name is changed. When registering to vote, she can use her marriage certificate if necessary. This would be rare as her ID would most likely already be updated before the next federal election. Only women freshly married right before voting would be affected. There are other pressing reasons for women to update their IDs quickly.

As stated before, those who don't have ID at all aren't voting anyway. Most of these people would be homeless or dependent, as renting or buying a place to live requires ID.
This really isn't a serious argument against voter ID.

The difficulties are quite real for some people, which is why most states still issue non-compliant IDs.


You would think by now someone would post a study illustrating the disenfranchisement in states with voter ID. If it is so real, certainly there are some studies that prove it as opposed to these hypotheses about people that will be disenfranchised.

They're awfully quiet about Georgia where the still claim Stacey Abrams is the governor and voter participation increased after voter ID laws were passed.

This could be a reason.

A Minnesota state representative is questioning the integrity of voter roll data in the state's most populous county, setting off a dispute over access to election records.

"Why is there such an effort to block us or any election integrity group to see this information?" state Rep. Pam Altendorf said Saturday.

"If they're clean, that's great. And if not, if [Minnesota Secretary of State] Steve Simon is unable or unwilling to clean our voter rolls, then we absolutely have to get federal help because this is disenfranchising every legal voter in Minnesota."
Harrison Bergeron
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

GrowlTowel said:

Sam Lowry said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


All of this has been addressed.
A state issued id is no cost for those who can't afford it. All state IDs are going to RealID that requires a birth certificate already.
A married woman has to update her state issued ID when her name is changed. When registering to vote, she can use her marriage certificate if necessary. This would be rare as her ID would most likely already be updated before the next federal election. Only women freshly married right before voting would be affected. There are other pressing reasons for women to update their IDs quickly.

As stated before, those who don't have ID at all aren't voting anyway. Most of these people would be homeless or dependent, as renting or buying a place to live requires ID.
This really isn't a serious argument against voter ID.

The difficulties are quite real for some people, which is why most states still issue non-compliant IDs.


You would think by now someone would post a study illustrating the disenfranchisement in states with voter ID. If it is so real, certainly there are some studies that prove it as opposed to these hypotheses about people that will be disenfranchised.

No doubt the impact of a good peer-reviewed study in this forum would be seismic.

We saw the effects they had on you as you sit behind your screen wearing 10 "Sexy Mama" rona masks and ensuring you have plastic hanging above your desk.
Mitch Blood Green
How long do you want to ignore this user?
cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


lol. More deflections not based in reality.

Again. Everyone has an ID. It is impossible to participate in today's society without one. There are just too many times a person needs an ID to function for them to not have one.




I don't hear you saying we should pay for it. It's not ID. It's a non problem looking for a solution.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/noncitizens-are-not-voting-federal-or-state-elections-heres-why


No functioning adult can participate in society without an ID.

Everyone has one. To claim otherwise is flat out lying.

You need an ID to enroll your children in school. And yet we don't have a huge wave of poor kids not getting enrolled.

You need an ID to get a job, government benefits, buy things, etc.

And yet people do all of those things daily.

The claim that people don't have an ID is a false one.


What inconveniences are you willing to endure? I'm reminded how whinny conservatives became when asked to wear masks. Unlike illegals voting, covid was real.
EatMoreSalmon
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


lol. More deflections not based in reality.

Again. Everyone has an ID. It is impossible to participate in today's society without one. There are just too many times a person needs an ID to function for them to not have one.




I don't hear you saying we should pay for it. It's not ID. It's a non problem looking for a solution.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/noncitizens-are-not-voting-federal-or-state-elections-heres-why


No functioning adult can participate in society without an ID.

Everyone has one. To claim otherwise is flat out lying.

You need an ID to enroll your children in school. And yet we don't have a huge wave of poor kids not getting enrolled.

You need an ID to get a job, government benefits, buy things, etc.

And yet people do all of those things daily.

The claim that people don't have an ID is a false one.


What inconveniences are you willing to endure? I'm reminded how whinny conservatives became when asked to wear masks. Unlike illegals voting, covid was real.

If one already has a state ID because they are a participating member of society, they will not be inconvenienced.

If one wants to vote and doesn't have a state ID because they are

homeless (where would they get to vote as a resident?)
a recluse/hermit
is in a nursing home with an expired ID
is a dependent that does not drive
is a criminal on the run

...
Help me out, Mitch, who else would not have an ID?
Mitch Blood Green
How long do you want to ignore this user?
EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


lol. More deflections not based in reality.

Again. Everyone has an ID. It is impossible to participate in today's society without one. There are just too many times a person needs an ID to function for them to not have one.




I don't hear you saying we should pay for it. It's not ID. It's a non problem looking for a solution.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/noncitizens-are-not-voting-federal-or-state-elections-heres-why


No functioning adult can participate in society without an ID.

Everyone has one. To claim otherwise is flat out lying.

You need an ID to enroll your children in school. And yet we don't have a huge wave of poor kids not getting enrolled.

You need an ID to get a job, government benefits, buy things, etc.

And yet people do all of those things daily.

The claim that people don't have an ID is a false one.


What inconveniences are you willing to endure? I'm reminded how whinny conservatives became when asked to wear masks. Unlike illegals voting, covid was real.

If one already has a state ID because they are a participating member of society, they will not be inconvenienced.

If one wants to vote and doesn't have a state ID because they are

homeless (where would they get to vote as a resident?)
a recluse/hermit
is in a nursing home with an expired ID
is a dependent that does not drive
is a criminal on the run

...
Help me out, Mitch, who else would not have an ID?


SAVE ACT requires "documentary proof of citizenship" to register to vote. It's not "ID." It's a birth certificate with original name. Then marriage certificate, divorce certificate, remarriage etc. before you can be a registered voter. Then you provide ID.

Recently, nephew marries a girl from another country. For my mom to attend, we need a passport. Mom born (home birth) Mississippi early 1900s. When we finally get birth certificate, it has a different birthdate than we always thought was the date. All her "state" IDs don't match the birth certificate. And of course her last name doesn't match the name at birth.

As a young man, I was taken to the polls for all elections because it was important. I was reminded that we fought and died for this right.

So to have guys with no "inconvenience" act like it's no big deal? It matters especially people who aren't computer savvy and women. It's another hurdle.
canoso
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FLBear5630 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

FLBear5630 said:

Archie3 said:

Perhaps ten years ago you could claim that Voter ID would harm Democrats due to their base being made of younger, less-white, poorer demographics (those who vote less and don't always have ID), but reality has begun to shift the other way. If you look at the data now, it's increasingly older, whiter, wealthier, more educated demographics that have become Democratic mainstays (Texas suburbs shifting blue is an example of this). It's part of why if you look at low-turnout elections, such as special elections, you're seeing substantial Democratic overperformance. The same demographics that vote frequently and have their papers are voting Democratic by increasing margins.

That said, I've always felt that, no matter the case, Voter ID should always be implemented. I think we need to make IDs a bit more straightforward to obtain- tons of people don't think to get their passport until they're going outside the country- but most countries around the world have stricter Voter ID laws than we do, and they manage just fine.

You guys are missing the point. It is a State decision, not Federal. Most States require some form of ID already.

If I am not mistaking only 11 do not require an ID. It is clear in the Constitution, it is up to the States to determine the manner of elections. I do not want anymore Federalism than we already have.

Once again, you're ironically missing the point.

The question is not one of federalism but why Democrats oppose improving election integrity.

Once again you are focusing on some particular problem of the day. These problems come and go. There are ALWAYS problems. The one thing that is constant for 250 years is the Constitution.

Voting is a State function. Clearly stated in the Constitution. THAT outwieighs any specific issue with the Democrats.

You have your priorities all wrong and if too many people think like you, we will lose our Nation. YOU DO NOT overstep the Constitution for some issue.

Even the Electoral College?
GrowlTowel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


lol. More deflections not based in reality.

Again. Everyone has an ID. It is impossible to participate in today's society without one. There are just too many times a person needs an ID to function for them to not have one.




I don't hear you saying we should pay for it. It's not ID. It's a non problem looking for a solution.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/noncitizens-are-not-voting-federal-or-state-elections-heres-why


No functioning adult can participate in society without an ID.

Everyone has one. To claim otherwise is flat out lying.

You need an ID to enroll your children in school. And yet we don't have a huge wave of poor kids not getting enrolled.

You need an ID to get a job, government benefits, buy things, etc.

And yet people do all of those things daily.

The claim that people don't have an ID is a false one.


What inconveniences are you willing to endure? I'm reminded how whinny conservatives became when asked to wear masks. Unlike illegals voting, covid was real.

And masks did jack **** to stop the spread. At least with Voter ID, the illegals will be discouraged from voting.

GrowlTowel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.

If you do not want Voter ID to discourage illegals from voting, then how about you help (or at least get out of the way) deport the millions of illegals that are here. If there were no illegals roaming the country, there would be no need for Voter ID.

Everybody wins.
EatMoreSalmon
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


lol. More deflections not based in reality.

Again. Everyone has an ID. It is impossible to participate in today's society without one. There are just too many times a person needs an ID to function for them to not have one.




I don't hear you saying we should pay for it. It's not ID. It's a non problem looking for a solution.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/noncitizens-are-not-voting-federal-or-state-elections-heres-why


No functioning adult can participate in society without an ID.

Everyone has one. To claim otherwise is flat out lying.

You need an ID to enroll your children in school. And yet we don't have a huge wave of poor kids not getting enrolled.

You need an ID to get a job, government benefits, buy things, etc.

And yet people do all of those things daily.

The claim that people don't have an ID is a false one.


What inconveniences are you willing to endure? I'm reminded how whinny conservatives became when asked to wear masks. Unlike illegals voting, covid was real.

If one already has a state ID because they are a participating member of society, they will not be inconvenienced.

If one wants to vote and doesn't have a state ID because they are

homeless (where would they get to vote as a resident?)
a recluse/hermit
is in a nursing home with an expired ID
is a dependent that does not drive
is a criminal on the run

...
Help me out, Mitch, who else would not have an ID?


SAVE ACT requires "documentary proof of citizenship" to register to vote. It's not "ID." It's a birth certificate with original name. Then marriage certificate, divorce certificate, remarriage etc. before you can be a registered voter. Then you provide ID.

Recently, nephew marries a girl from another country. For my mom to attend, we need a passport. Mom born (home birth) Mississippi early 1900s. When we finally get birth certificate, it has a different birthdate than we always thought was the date. All her "state" IDs don't match the birth certificate. And of course her last name doesn't match the name at birth.

As a young man, I was taken to the polls for all elections because it was important. I was reminded that we fought and died for this right.

So to have guys with no "inconvenience" act like it's no big deal? It matters especially people who aren't computer savvy and women. It's another hurdle.


RealID, which all states must go to, will be documentary proof.
Any groups I missed in the no ID list?
VaeBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I just had to get my driver's license renewed. Had to have my birth certificate because of real id. I couldn't find it. Had to order one from the county clerk online. Took about a week to receive it. Wasn't difficult at all.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

cowboycwr said:

Bestweekeverr said:

It's really simple when you look at the demographics of people without driver licenses or other forms of state issued ID:

*Poor
*Young
*Minority


These demographics typically vote Democrat, which is why they don't want another barrier for people who already aren't motivated to vote.

The Republicans want to add this barrier so less people vote Democrat. They don't care about voting security and if the roles were reversed they would be fighting it like the dems. There is no proof of any material non citizen voting fraud as determined by Trump's special committee he put together in his first term.

This isn't about priciple, it's about winning elections. But I'm gonna assume this question wasn't asked in good faith so flame away.



False. Just flat out false.

And before you come back with some study by some leftist organization an ID is needed for just a bout everything in America.

So these groups you claim don't have an ID suddenly have it for these other activities some how?

To enroll your kids in public schools you must present an ID. And yet there is not a huge group of poor, minority and young parents who just don't enroll their kids..... How does that work?????

Drive cars..... buy alcohol, tobacco, go to clubs, buy paint, etc. They can do these things and yet don't have ID to vote????




The voting IDs have a cost. The opposition to the SAVE act isn't about ID but about disenfranchisement. It requires that you prove citizenship through your birth certificate.

A woman who marries and takes her husbands name now has the added step of birth certificate and marriage license. The best ID is passport but that's $130.

If this is important, the state (government) should cover the cost.


lol. The "added" step of providing documents you already have…


Oh please.


Conservatives are always ok with "common sense" ****s that in inconveniences other people.

You'd never support roving agents stopping white guys to check if they have guns but are silent when iHispanics are randomly stopped and grabbed then forced to prove citizenship. Should we have roving forces to enforce the tax code?

Conservatives hate the idea of a 5 day waiting period to buy a gun (background checks) or restriction of magazine size. But it's no big deal to dig up documents "they should have" to prove they are citizens.

Sorry, history tells us this isn't about voter ID. If so, we'd provide everyone a valid voter id when they register for the selective service. For Free.

It doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean there's not an effect.


lol.

What a stupid waste of an argument.

Most of what you said is fantasy and has nothing to do with this.

Then you bring up the selective service…. Which not everyone registers for. Especially women.

You would be surprised how many do not do it.

People need an ID for so many things in life that it is impossible to be a functioning adult in our society that has a car, job, house or apartment, buys things, etc. without one.



So, what inconveniences a re you willing to accept from government?

Are you willing to have to buy insurance to own a gun? Will you accept random citizenship verification to enforce immigration law? Will tie your right to vote to your wife's right to vote? Will you push for free ID?

What you willing to delay?

It's easy to tell others it's no big deal.


lol. More deflections not based in reality.

Again. Everyone has an ID. It is impossible to participate in today's society without one. There are just too many times a person needs an ID to function for them to not have one.




I don't hear you saying we should pay for it. It's not ID. It's a non problem looking for a solution.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/noncitizens-are-not-voting-federal-or-state-elections-heres-why


No functioning adult can participate in society without an ID.

Everyone has one. To claim otherwise is flat out lying.

You need an ID to enroll your children in school. And yet we don't have a huge wave of poor kids not getting enrolled.

You need an ID to get a job, government benefits, buy things, etc.

And yet people do all of those things daily.

The claim that people don't have an ID is a false one.


What inconveniences are you willing to endure? I'm reminded how whinny conservatives became when asked to wear masks. Unlike illegals voting, covid was real.

If one already has a state ID because they are a participating member of society, they will not be inconvenienced.

If one wants to vote and doesn't have a state ID because they are

homeless (where would they get to vote as a resident?)
a recluse/hermit
is in a nursing home with an expired ID
is a dependent that does not drive
is a criminal on the run

...
Help me out, Mitch, who else would not have an ID?


SAVE ACT requires "documentary proof of citizenship" to register to vote. It's not "ID." It's a birth certificate with original name. Then marriage certificate, divorce certificate, remarriage etc. before you can be a registered voter. Then you provide ID.

Recently, nephew marries a girl from another country. For my mom to attend, we need a passport. Mom born (home birth) Mississippi early 1900s. When we finally get birth certificate, it has a different birthdate than we always thought was the date. All her "state" IDs don't match the birth certificate. And of course her last name doesn't match the name at birth.

As a young man, I was taken to the polls for all elections because it was important. I was reminded that we fought and died for this right.

So to have guys with no "inconvenience" act like it's no big deal? It matters especially people who aren't computer savvy and women. It's another hurdle.


RealID, which all states must go to, will be documentary proof.
Any groups I missed in the no ID list?

Again, most states are not going exclusively to REAL ID. Many people will still not have it.
 
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