Porteroso said:Sam Lowry said:D. C. Bear said:Sam Lowry said:D. C. Bear said:Sam Lowry said:D. C. Bear said:Sam Lowry said:D. C. Bear said:Sam Lowry said:Porteroso said:Sam Lowry said:D. C. Bear said:Sam Lowry said:ATL Bear said:Sam Lowry said:
Ever checked the location of military facilities in downtown Tel Aviv and other populated areas? Both sides are accused of this, and they both whine about it.
The issue remains the intentional targeting of civilians.
Not only does Hamas intentionally target Israeli civilians. They intentionally use their own civilians as targets.
Second claim questionable. First claim true on a smaller scale. Both sides use terrorism, i.e. targeting civilians for political purposes. Only Israel targets them for genocidal purposes.
The documented and stated goal of Hamas is to kill the Jews and drive them in to sea. How much more "genocidal" can you get? Tens of thousands of rockets and slaughtering 1,000 plus in a single day is not a "smaller scale," it is the scale they were able to accomplish of their stated genocidal purposes. When are you going to start believing what Hamas has been saying and doing for decades? Israeli operations are not designed for "genocidal purposes." Doesn't automatically mean they are great actions or justified, that's another debate, but genocide is a legal term that requires an intent that is not present.
The reports commissioned by the UN Human Rights Council found that both parties committed war crimes and violations of international humanitarian and human rights law. They found in addition that Israel committed genocide as legally defined by the Genocide Convention. The discussion of intent can be found in Part IV, "Dolus specialis of genocide" (paragraphs 156-220).
Genocide is defined by the dictionary though. The stated purpose of Israel has never been genocide. Infact they defended with very little retaliation against a terrorist group, later government in Gaza, who did state their purpose was genocide and backed it up with action for decades.
You make a simple mistake most Westerners make, and maybe you even know better. You take the actions of a group in the Middle East as if they happen in a vacuum, which isn't quite fair in a millenia old conflict. Even the actions of Russua Ukraine have to be examined going back centuries to unravel that particular conflict.
If you simply look at the past 2-3 years, Israel looks like a bully. If you really consider the history of Israel/Hamas, Israel looks like it showed incredible restraint far longer than any other civilized country would. Israel is making mistakes that should be criticized, but the entirety of the conflict should be blamed on Hamas.
I don't take it in a vacuum at all. The more you consider the history, the worse Israel looks. Genocide is defined by the totality of the evidence, not cherry-picked phrases about driving Jews into the sea. The phrase itself is an amalgamation or interpretation of some statements by a PLO leader almost 60 years ago, before Hamas existed. It would have been better had Hamas never existed and the two sides agreed on a solution. But then there could be no Greater Israel. The Israelis needed Hamas as a spoiler.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it".
Hamas Charter, 1988.
Hamas has never recognized Israel as a country, and their purpose remains Israel's obliteration. At some point, you just need to believe what they tell you instead of trying to make excuses for Oct. 7.
The reports commissioned by the UN Human Rights Council found that both parties committed war crimes and violations of international humanitarian and human rights law. They found in addition that Israel committed genocide as legally defined by the Genocide Convention. The discussion of intent can be found in Part IV, "Dolus specialis of genocide" (paragraphs 156-220).
That is not an excuse for Oct. 7. You're simply attacking the messenger instead of dealing with the factual and legal substance of the matter.
Embedded in your arguments, and in some United Nations rhetoric, is the idea, unsupported by current events and history, that Hamas and Israel are roughly equivalent entities. They are not. Hamas is a "strap explosives on your child and use them as a human bomb" organization. The IDF, like all military organizations who fight an enemy, has instances of human rights abuse, and those instances are subject to internal investigation and punishment. One could criticize that process, but that process exists. On the other hand, committing those crimes on as great a scale as they are capable is Hamas' raison d'tre. This is not like a border dispute between the United States and Canada or Mexico. One side has, as its stated aim, the obliteration of the other. It remains true today that if the Arabs laid down their weapons (and suicide vests) there would be no more conflict, and if Israel laid down their weapons there would be no more Israel.
And there it is. When all else fails, it's the last refuge of the scoundrels, the moral equivalency argument. "Standards don't apply to us. We're the good guys."
Standards do apply, and are applied. If an Israeli citizen takes an Israeli school boy, straps a bomb on him and has him walk up to a Gaza hospital ER and blow himself up, he would be arrested and tried. If a Hamas operative does that, he will be celebrated.
The Israeli government and military are not perfect, but they are not uniquely evil or even appreciably more evil than many other governments or militaries, including our own. Accusing them of genocide for imperfectly defending themselves while minimizing Hamas' clearly stated genocidal intentions and actions defies logic.
It defies logic because they're not committing genocide, or because they're defending themselves from Hamas? If it's the latter, you are indeed saying the rules don't apply to them. If you're arguing the former, you have yet to deal with the wealth of evidence presented in the UN report and elsewhere.
It defies logic because it is illogical to hold the IDF to a standard that we do not seem to require of any other nation. In war, people die, including innocent people. The IDF has a track record in Gaza of attempting to limit civilian deaths rather than maximize them. A genocidal policy does not attempt to provide evacuation warnings, safe zones, or corridors for people to have safe passage out of a combat zone. A genocidal policy does not abort certain military strikes on combatants when civilians are also detected, and it certainly does not drop a non explosive ordinance on the roof to warn people to get out before dropping actual explosives.
Again, from the UNHRC:Quote:
The Commission investigated large-scale incidents between October and December 2023 in which the Israeli security forces attacked civilian neighbourhoods resulting a high number of civilian deaths. For example, on 20 October 2023, the Al-Aydi family home in Al-Nuseirat refugee camp was struck by an airstrike in an area designated by the Israeli military on 8 October 2023 as a safe zone for residents of the northern Gaza Strip. According to Amnesty International, the Israeli strike killed 28 civilians, including 12 children. One survivor recounted the devastating event to Amnesty International: "[w]e were sitting at home, it was full of people, of children, of relatives. Suddenly, without any warning, everything collapsed on our head. All my brothers died, my nephews, my nieces… My mother died, my sisters died".
Importantly, in relation to the targeting of Palestinians along evacuation routes and in safe zones, the Commission found that Palestinians, including women and children, were directly targeted and killed, even in the absence of hostilities in the vicinity and when they were by themselves. One such incident occurred on 13 October 2023 on Salah Al-Din Street in Gaza City, where an evacuation convoy of vehicles heading south was struck by several projectiles near the Esleem petrol station. The attack targeted not only passing civilian vehicles but also clearly marked first responders and medical teams arriving at the scene. An eyewitness reported that approximately 200 individuals, mostly women and children, were on the same truck with him, near the explosion site. He described how subsequent explosions caused multiple civilian casualties. As emergency teams arrived and began assisting the wounded, another attack occurred.
In all cases analysed by the Commission in relation to the attacks along the evacuation routes and within designated safe areas, the Commission found that the Israeli security forces had clear knowledge of the presence of Palestinian civilians along the evacuation routes and within the safe areas but nevertheless they shot at and killed civilians, some of whom (including children) were holding makeshift white flags. Some children, including toddlers, were shot in the head by snipers.
Palestinians in Gaza were attacked in their homes, at hospitals, in shelters (including schools and religious sites), during the evacuations and in designated safe zones. At times, civilians, journalists, healthcare professionals, humanitarian workers and other protected persons were directly targeted and killed. According to the Ministry of Health in Gaza, as of 15 April 2025, 1,400 healthcare workers were killed. On 31 March 2025, UNRWA Commissioner-General stated that a total of 408 aid workers were killed in Gaza since 7 October 2023.62 From 7 October 2023 to 23 July 2025, over 330 UNRWA team members have been confirmed killed. Reportedly, as of 3 March 2025, at least 170 journalists and media worker had been killed due to Israeli military operations.
In its previous report the Commission has found that the Israeli security forces intended to target and attack Palestinian civilians, including children, women, persons with disabilities and older persons, during their evacuation, within the designated safe zones and in shelters. Specifically in relation to children, the Commission found, that it was foreseeable on many occasions that civilians, including children, would be present in the area targeted by the Israeli security forces (for example, in residential buildings, UNRWA schools, medical facilities and within designated safe zones) and that the Israeli security forces intended to target Palestinian civilians in Gaza, including children.
The Commission finds that the killing of Palestinians since 7 October 2023 occurred mainly through three different means: (i) killing through attacks against protected objects (such as civilian homes and healthcare facilities) where civilians were present; (ii) targeting civilians and other protected persons, for example, during the evacuations, within safe zones or at shelters; and (iii) deaths due to the deliberate infliction of conditions of life (such as the blockade of medicine and medical equipment and humanitarian aid from entering into Gaza).
As such, the Commission concludes that the actus reus and mens rea of 'killing members of the group' under article II(a) of the Genocide Convention are established.
I wonder how any if this was verified. I bet it was not. No matter how high up an organization is, you cannot just make allegations of people dying during war, then claim it is genocide.
It's a ridiculous standard that has never been applied to anyone else. Everyone in war shoots at what they think is the enemy. Everyone is wrong sometimes.
The only standards the international community can reasonably hold any nation to, are asking for justification for the war, check, and trying to contain the fighting to the parties involved.
What you cited was non combatants making reports. By the way, what is this truck that holds 200 people? I want to see a picture. Errors aside, it doesn't matter what this guy says. He has no idea whether the people surrounding him were civilians or not. Just that he was.
Bizarre that any organization would use an account like this to determine fault. What effort was made to determine if these were civilians or not? What a joke of a source.
There are nearly 500 footnotes, so feel free to dig as deep as you want. The particular incident you're asking about was covered by multiple Arab and British news sources, including the BBC. 12 victims were identified, including women, children, and a medical doctor who taught at the university.
Strike on civilian convoy fleeing Gaza: What we know from verified video
