Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

One can be an historian, or a hypocrite, but not an hypocrite.

J.R. said:

---

to the OP. why does it matter?

---

There's been a lot of conversation since the OP. Are you asking about the original question or one of the following questions/statements?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

J.R. said:

---

to the OP. why does it matter?

---

There's been a lot of conversation since the OP. Are you asking about the original question or one of the following questions/statements?

---

yes. retort to the OP

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

One can be an historian, or a hypocrite, but not an hypocrite.

---

Hypocrisy certainly is something you would be well versed in, Sam.

J.R. said:

---

to the OP. why does it matter?

---

If biblical christianity is correct, then whether or not a person is a Christian is the most important question there is for any of us.

The track record for death is that one out of one of us will die. Since we can't get around it then it is of the most importance that we are prepared for what comes after it.

Compare the story of the rich young ruler with that of the thief on the cross.

One led a productive life while the other led a life of crime.

One said he was good while the other knew he was a sinner

One saw Jesus as a good teacher while the other saw Jesus as the Savior

The one who seemingly had everything walked away sorrowful while the one naked, serving a death sentence was on the same day with Christ in paradise.

Each one of us either believe as the rich young ruler did or as the repentant thief.

The OP ask if your a Christian because it's the most important question ever.

The OP ask why/why not to make sure everyone understands that Christianity isn't a lifestyle, like placing education ahead of alcohol or the golden rule ahead of selfishness.

The OP is a conversation starter to the most important conversation topic, EVER.

At one point or another, we've all been nudged to concede our god and to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, son of the one true creator GOD. We've all heard the still small voice telling us what not only the "why" of the OP but the who of the OP.

I'm Christian, just posing the question as I live in a country mostly of mostly Buddhists. Lots of people in this world don't know or understand Christianity. So, everyone who isn't Christian is condemned to hell? Just interesting to ponder.

J.R. said:

---

I'm Christian, just posing the question as I live in a country mostly of mostly Buddhists. Lots of people in this world don't know or understand Christianity. So, everyone who isn't Christian is condemned to hell? Just interesting to ponder.

---

it says if they are knowledged of the gospel and reject it, the punishment is more harsh than if they never knew it.

We tend to do two things as Christians- be overly judgemental( you are going to hell!) vs speaking in love and caring and stay quiet when we were called to spread the gospel

Church leaders will be judged more harshly because it is their job to equip the congregation with the ability to witness the gospel to others in a loving way.

There are levels of judgement

J.R. said:

---

I'm Christian, just posing the question as I live in a country mostly of mostly Buddhists. Lots of people in this world don't know or understand Christianity. So, everyone who isn't Christian is condemned to hell? Just interesting to ponder.

---

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Thousands in Iran have had Christ come to them in dreams. The Lord works in mysterious ways.

Dez Bryant showed me I don't know what a catch is. I'm sure not going to pretend to know what Christ considers to be going through Him. Christ is the one that will judge that.

We are commanded to "go and make disciples of all nations". You may be in a field that is white for harvest. We probably all are.

what about people who have never heard the gospel and never will? Just curious here. Took my parter to a Christian Church (Anglican) for Easter which was her first time in a Church , not a Temple. It was a good thing.

J.R. said:

---

what about people who have never heard the gospel and never will? Just curious here. Took my parter to a Christian Church (Anglican) for Easter which was her first time in a Church , not a Temple. It was a good thing.

---

That's why I mentioned the thousands in Iran that have had Christ come to them in dreams.

I can't think of anything in scripture that specifically mentions this so anything I say would just be a guess.

I do know we have a loving and just savior and He is not going to give anyone a raw deal.

1 Timothy 2 starts off "2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostleI am telling the truth, I am not lyingand a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles."

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

One can be an historian, or a hypocrite, but not an hypocrite.

---

Hypocrisy certainly is something you would be well versed in, Sam.

---

That was random.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

One can be an historian, or a hypocrite, but not an hypocrite.

---

Hypocrisy certainly is something you would be well versed in, Sam.

---

That was random.

---

and with the correct noun indicator.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

FLBear5630 said:

---

I agree. At some point, theoretically, we will know everything that can be learned. The remaining is religion, faith that there is a creator and God as we know it.. In my opinion, I go into science knowing there will be a point that there is no direct evidence. We may be able to measure the output, but prove the how?

I believe God makes knowledge available to us as soon as we are able to understand it. Religion and science have to match and be consistent. That is why I am not a believer the Bible is a history book. It may tell of historical events, but the religious philosophy is more intended to deliver a message. Christ told us so much in his use of parables.


No judgements on how we use it, that is free will.



Pope to Vatican Observatory: Church embraces science to find God in Creation - Vatican News

Excellent group to read about science and religion. Science has been part of the Church since the beginning.
Vatican Observatory - Home

---

The Church has a history of denying and attempting to quash science. It grudgingly gives up, and rewrites itself when its claims become irrefutably absurd in the face of knowledge.

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I agree. At some point, theoretically, we will know everything that can be learned. The remaining is religion, faith that there is a creator and God as we know it.. In my opinion, I go into science knowing there will be a point that there is no direct evidence. We may be able to measure the output, but prove the how?

I believe God makes knowledge available to us as soon as we are able to understand it. Religion and science have to match and be consistent. That is why I am not a believer the Bible is a history book. It may tell of historical events, but the religious philosophy is more intended to deliver a message. Christ told us so much in his use of parables.


No judgements on how we use it, that is free will.



Pope to Vatican Observatory: Church embraces science to find God in Creation - Vatican News

Excellent group to read about science and religion. Science has been part of the Church since the beginning.
Vatican Observatory - Home

---

The Church has a history of denying and attempting to quash science. It grudgingly gives up, and rewrites itself when its claims become irrefutably absurd in the face of knowledge.

---

Some. As does most organizations, the US hasn't held anything back?

But, science has been at the base of the Church's mission from the beginning. Name one institution that has sponsored more Universities, Hospitals, and scientific endeavors over history. Have they mishandled some, of course. But i want to know one organization that hasn't?

England, Soviets, China? Even yours, everything you do is just open source? For the good of man? No Board or Panel or Elon is deciding what can be further pursued, published or even held back?

Too much is placed in the Copurnicous/Galileo case, not Church's best moment, but much more to story then two paragraphs in textbooks.

Good article.
https://nobadhomily.com/myth-of-the-catholic-church-opposition-to-science/

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

One can be an historian, or a hypocrite, but not an hypocrite.

---

Hypocrisy certainly is something you would be well versed in, Sam.

---

That was random.

---

Odd, from my vantage point your hypocrisy seems very targeted, not random.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

One can be an historian, or a hypocrite, but not an hypocrite.

---

Hypocrisy certainly is something you would be well versed in, Sam.

---

That was random.

---

Odd, from my vantage point your hypocrisy seems very targeted, not random.

---

All righty then.

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

---

You continue to press a false contention, that I am only correct if I convince you.

You can be (and are) wrong even though you believe otherwise.

Faith exists apart from empirical evidence. Were faith to depend on human satisfaction of evidence, the matter would be a question of procedure.

And I have not abandoned love and justice. You pretend they only exist in some laboratory, it seems.

That is a shallow and petty way to live, I think.

There is a better way, but it depends on a road the materialists do not know.

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

---

is your real name Thomas?

(John 20:25-27)

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

---

Claiming God does not exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

Councilor, you know that we cannot prove the existence of God anymore than you can prove the nonexistence of god. Outside of the tugging on one's heart and the hardening of that same heart, then all we can do is follow the evidence.

As legal council, you are familiar with jury instructions that often follow this line -"base your verdict solely on the evidence presented in the courtroom and disregard all personal views, emotions, biases, and outside opinions." Also as legal council you've presented closing arguments that tug on the emotions, the biases and, the outside opinions. It's impossible to separate those personal things from the evidentiary things.

Over the years there's been hundreds of threads on Sic'em and BaylorFans presenting thousands of points of evidence for God. They've included intelligent design, fulfilled prophecy, historical evidence, geographical evidence, support for the evidence from both inside Christianity and outside Christianity even including evidence from enemies of the faith.

More importantly, there's been God's word, HIS testimony shared many times, often cutting like a knife, convicting and weighing on the heart of those listening, reading.

The time is drawing near when you must review the evidence and render a verdict. An eternal life hangs in the balance. It's your eternal life.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, who stumbled in the darkness all his life, even as he appeared to shine light, "It is impossible to get a man to believe something if his identity depends on him not believing."

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

---

??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

canoso said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, who stumbled in the darkness all his life, even as he appeared to shine light, "It is impossible to get a man to believe something if his identity depends on him not believing."

---

The best explanation of unwavering adherence to religious dogma I've heard.

TexasScientist said:

---

canoso said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, who stumbled in the darkness all his life, even as he appeared to shine light, "It is impossible to get a man to believe something if his identity depends on him not believing."

---

The best explanation of unwavering adherence to religious dogma I've heard.

---

Mirrors are available at most big box retailers

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

---

??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

---

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no evidence from you that really contradicts anything in Scripture, but you do you.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

canoso said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, who stumbled in the darkness all his life, even as he appeared to shine light, "It is impossible to get a man to believe something if his identity depends on him not believing."

---

The best explanation of unwavering adherence to religious dogma I've heard.

---

Mirrors are available at most big box retailers

---

It's well known that vampires, politicians and used car salesmen are not visible in mirrors.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

---

Claiming God does not exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

Councilor, you know that we cannot prove the existence of God anymore than you can prove the nonexistence of god. Outside of the tugging on one's heart and the hardening of that same heart, then all we can do is follow the evidence.

As legal council, you are familiar with jury instructions that often follow this line -"base your verdict solely on the evidence presented in the courtroom and disregard all personal views, emotions, biases, and outside opinions." Also as legal council you've presented closing arguments that tug on the emotions, the biases and, the outside opinions. It's impossible to separate those personal things from the evidentiary things.

Over the years there's been hundreds of threads on Sic'em and BaylorFans presenting thousands of points of evidence for God. They've included intelligent design, fulfilled prophecy, historical evidence, geographical evidence, support for the evidence from both inside Christianity and outside Christianity even including evidence from enemies of the faith.

More importantly, there's been God's word, HIS testimony shared many times, often cutting like a knife, convicting and weighing on the heart of those listening, reading.

The time is drawing near when you must review the evidence and render a verdict. An eternal life hangs in the balance. It's your eternal life.

---

My life, not yours, hangs in a balance.
As I've said you are welcome to your faith and your faith claims.
But you have made unsupported truth claims in your Gish Gallop, some of which have nothing to do with the existence of deities.
Not only is your evidence insufficient to support your claim of a god, your circular reasoning argument of the Bible as a source introduces an additional element: the god of the Bible is not worthy of worship.

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

---

Claiming God does not exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

Councilor, you know that we cannot prove the existence of God anymore than you can prove the nonexistence of god. Outside of the tugging on one's heart and the hardening of that same heart, then all we can do is follow the evidence.

As legal council, you are familiar with jury instructions that often follow this line -"base your verdict solely on the evidence presented in the courtroom and disregard all personal views, emotions, biases, and outside opinions." Also as legal council you've presented closing arguments that tug on the emotions, the biases and, the outside opinions. It's impossible to separate those personal things from the evidentiary things.

Over the years there's been hundreds of threads on Sic'em and BaylorFans presenting thousands of points of evidence for God. They've included intelligent design, fulfilled prophecy, historical evidence, geographical evidence, support for the evidence from both inside Christianity and outside Christianity even including evidence from enemies of the faith.

More importantly, there's been God's word, HIS testimony shared many times, often cutting like a knife, convicting and weighing on the heart of those listening, reading.

The time is drawing near when you must review the evidence and render a verdict. An eternal life hangs in the balance. It's your eternal life.

---

My life, not yours, hangs in a balance.
As I've said you are welcome to your faith and your faith claims.
But you have made unsupported truth claims in your Gish Gallop, some of which have nothing to do with the existence of deities.
Not only is your evidence insufficient to support your claim of a god, your circular reasoning argument of the Bible as a source introduces an additional element: the god of the Bible is not worthy of worship.

---

so you have either not read it, or completely misunderstood it.

When your parents punished you for wrong doing, was it because they loved you or because they were harsh unloving people? God is just and merciful. God gives chances to repent prior to punishement.

Your parents would punish you if you were unkind to your siblings, God punishes in the same way.

The laws of this country are a uniform code of justice, the laws of God is also a uniform code of justice.

Believing in God is not like a light switch that's either off or on, believing in God is more like a dimmer switch where it can be completely off or move up and down in levels. When it's all the way on, you have the full radiance of the Holy Spirit. When it's all the way off, you deny the spirit and live by the flesh. Millions of humans on a daily basis adjust their dimmer switch up and down, some turn it completely off and some turn it to full illumination. Others toggle it in the middle to get a "comfortable" setting.

If you want to know if God is real, ask him with an open heart and a little faith. He will show you the truth.

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

---

??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

---

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no evidence from you that really contradicts anything in Scripture, but you do you.

---

I previously said the creation myth. Science completely contradicts both creation myths that are found in Genesis. Add to that the flood and the Eden account down to the flood. But you mystics want to hold on to your mysticism.