TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Answered in the post you quoted.

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So you have no answer, just what I thought.

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I did indeed answer.

That you keep hiding from that answer, is telling.

TexasScientist said:

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BearWithMe said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearWithMe said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearWithMe said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearWithMe said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearWithMe said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BearWithMe said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearWithMe said:

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I have yet to find sufficient evidence (scientific, historical, theological, philosophical, or otherwise) that convincingly demonstrates the validity of Christianity's core claims.

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Thanks for the honest answer.

What things about the Bible and/or about Jesus do you believe if any?

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I believe the Bible is a collection of ancient texts with history, mythology/allegory, and theology/philosophy all interwoven together.

As for Jesus, I think it's almost certain he was a real historical figure, he was a Jewish man from Galilee, was baptized by John the Baptist, gathered followers and taught, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and some of his followers believed he rose from the dead and continued spreading his message.

There's plenty more obviously, but hopeful that helps answer at a high level.

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You left out an important detail - that the disciples of Jesus, all of them, were willing to suffer terrible punishment, even die, rather than retract their claim that Christ rose from the dead.

Also, that despite some very vigorous efforts by Jewish and Roman authorities to suppress and wipe out the believers, the Church survived, thrived and in the end is still here long after its persecutors passed on.

Quite the historic anomaly.

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We have very few early sources for the disciples' martyrdoms and none being contemporary.

Josephus mentions James around 30 years after his death, Clement of Rome references Peter and Paul a generation later, and Tacitus mentions Neronian persecution without naming specific disciples. Acts records the execution of James son of Zebedee, though its dating is debated.

Most of what people think about how specific apostles died comes from Eusebius and apocryphal texts written centuries later.

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Just as there is no contradictory record of the empty tomb, there is no contradictory record of the martyrdom of the apostles.

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/how-do-we-know-that-the-apostles-really-died-as-martyrs/

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Thank you for sharing the article. I read through it and its core argument is essentially: early Christian tradition says they died as martyrs, no ancient source contradicts it, therefore it's reliable. But that reasoning has a few problems - I'll try to respond to each of its three points made.

First, it leans on Acts as evidence the disciples were headed toward martyrdom. The issue is that Acts is a Christian document written by someone already committed to the faith (unlike some of the sources in my OP), so it's not an independent external source. Using it to validate claims made by that same belief system is circular.

Second, it argues the martyrdom tradition is uniform with no contradictory ancient record. But absence of contradiction isn't evidence something happened, that's an argument from silence. Given how little was documented about minor figures in a small 1st century sect, it's honestly just what you'd expect, regardless of what happened.

Third, it points to later Christians dying for their faith as corroboration of the original accounts. But those people were dying for their belief in the apostolic testimony, not because they had independent knowledge of what happened. This only tells us the tradition spread, not that it's true.

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First, evidence includes Josephus documenting James' execution (AD 62), and writings from Clement of Rome, Ignatius, and Polycarp (late 1st/early 2nd century) confirming the violent deaths of Peter and Paul. This is not circular reasoning.

Second, Numerous non-biblical, early Christian, and secular writings from the late 1st to 2nd centuries mention the apostles, particularly Peter, Paul, and John. Key sources include the Apostolic Fathers (Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Papias) and Roman historians like Tacitus, who corroborate the apostles' ministry, leadership, and martyrdom

They were more than minor figures in their time, especially for the Romans and Jews wanting to stop the growth of the church. Not only was there plenty of opportunity to write contradictory accounts, there was plenty of reason to write contradictory accounts and yet, there are none.

Third, that's true for anyone a generation or more after the contemporaries die. However, if there was evidence to the contrary that the apostles did not die as martyrs there is a strong likelihood that would have been presented to get the later Christians to recant.

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Genuine question: did you read the post you originally responded to lol? I mentioned most of these sources already:
"Josephus mentions James around 30 years after his death, Clement of Rome references Peter and Paul a generation later, and Tacitus mentions Neronian persecution without naming specific disciples. …."

These are certainly better than acts, but are still not contemporary.

We will just have to agree to disagree on the missing contradictory accounts portion.

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You want a dated Jerusalem Post article. 30 years is extremely close for a historical account during that timeframe. EXTREMELY CLOSE

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My point was simply that we don't have any contemporary sources, with the vast majority coming a century or more later from Christian sources.

I think it's plausible, if not likely, that a handful of early Christians were martyrs, but I'm not convinced in the church tradition that most of the 12 were martyrs.

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How many of the eyewitnesses need to be martyred to make a convincing argument, 2, 6, more?

J Warner Wallace, a cold case detective used the same analytical tools he uses for murder cases to looked at the death and resurrection of Christ. He describes the evidence as being "death by 1000 cuts"-so many small things all pointing the same direction. He says the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

His book, Cold Case Christianity, addresses many of the arguments made in this thread

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As I stated earlier, I don't believe most of the 12 were martyred outside James, and maybe Peter. I'm only being more defensive as your original claim was:
"You left out an important detail - that the disciples of Jesus, all of them, were willing to suffer terrible punishment, even die, rather than retract their claim that Christ rose from the dead."

I have read Cold Case Christianity actually, as well as about two dozen other apologetic books and counter apologetic books. Was not a fan of Wallace personally.

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Quote:

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"You left out an important detail - that the disciples of Jesus, all of them, were willing to suffer terrible punishment, even die, rather than retract their claim that Christ rose from the dead."

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These are simply stories (written years later) written by people who have a theoligical reason to promote the idea of martyrdom. The fact is there is no contemporaneous objective independent sources confirming. Which begs the question, if there is an all knowing, powerful, supernatural god who wants to spread the "good news" message he charged fallible mere mortals with spreading, are there not much more convincing ways to reveal himself and achieve his goals. IF the goal is to convert nonbelievers, he's failing badly and isn't very smart about it. If any one of them were truly martyrs, it doesn't validate the belief, but simply confirms they were extremely gullible. People die all the time for misplaced beliefs. Islam is full of martyrs looking for their 72 virgin goats.

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This isn't about people becoming martyrs for their beliefs but martyrs for what they know to be a lie. Of course you already knew this.

What is your empirical evidence that Christianity is false?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TexasScientist said:

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BearWithMe said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearWithMe said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearWithMe said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearWithMe said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearWithMe said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BearWithMe said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearWithMe said:

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I have yet to find sufficient evidence (scientific, historical, theological, philosophical, or otherwise) that convincingly demonstrates the validity of Christianity's core claims.

---

Thanks for the honest answer.

What things about the Bible and/or about Jesus do you believe if any?

---

I believe the Bible is a collection of ancient texts with history, mythology/allegory, and theology/philosophy all interwoven together.

As for Jesus, I think it's almost certain he was a real historical figure, he was a Jewish man from Galilee, was baptized by John the Baptist, gathered followers and taught, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and some of his followers believed he rose from the dead and continued spreading his message.

There's plenty more obviously, but hopeful that helps answer at a high level.

---

You left out an important detail - that the disciples of Jesus, all of them, were willing to suffer terrible punishment, even die, rather than retract their claim that Christ rose from the dead.

Also, that despite some very vigorous efforts by Jewish and Roman authorities to suppress and wipe out the believers, the Church survived, thrived and in the end is still here long after its persecutors passed on.

Quite the historic anomaly.

---

We have very few early sources for the disciples' martyrdoms and none being contemporary.

Josephus mentions James around 30 years after his death, Clement of Rome references Peter and Paul a generation later, and Tacitus mentions Neronian persecution without naming specific disciples. Acts records the execution of James son of Zebedee, though its dating is debated.

Most of what people think about how specific apostles died comes from Eusebius and apocryphal texts written centuries later.

---

Just as there is no contradictory record of the empty tomb, there is no contradictory record of the martyrdom of the apostles.

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/how-do-we-know-that-the-apostles-really-died-as-martyrs/

---

Thank you for sharing the article. I read through it and its core argument is essentially: early Christian tradition says they died as martyrs, no ancient source contradicts it, therefore it's reliable. But that reasoning has a few problems - I'll try to respond to each of its three points made.

First, it leans on Acts as evidence the disciples were headed toward martyrdom. The issue is that Acts is a Christian document written by someone already committed to the faith (unlike some of the sources in my OP), so it's not an independent external source. Using it to validate claims made by that same belief system is circular.

Second, it argues the martyrdom tradition is uniform with no contradictory ancient record. But absence of contradiction isn't evidence something happened, that's an argument from silence. Given how little was documented about minor figures in a small 1st century sect, it's honestly just what you'd expect, regardless of what happened.

Third, it points to later Christians dying for their faith as corroboration of the original accounts. But those people were dying for their belief in the apostolic testimony, not because they had independent knowledge of what happened. This only tells us the tradition spread, not that it's true.

---

First, evidence includes Josephus documenting James' execution (AD 62), and writings from Clement of Rome, Ignatius, and Polycarp (late 1st/early 2nd century) confirming the violent deaths of Peter and Paul. This is not circular reasoning.

Second, Numerous non-biblical, early Christian, and secular writings from the late 1st to 2nd centuries mention the apostles, particularly Peter, Paul, and John. Key sources include the Apostolic Fathers (Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Papias) and Roman historians like Tacitus, who corroborate the apostles' ministry, leadership, and martyrdom

They were more than minor figures in their time, especially for the Romans and Jews wanting to stop the growth of the church. Not only was there plenty of opportunity to write contradictory accounts, there was plenty of reason to write contradictory accounts and yet, there are none.

Third, that's true for anyone a generation or more after the contemporaries die. However, if there was evidence to the contrary that the apostles did not die as martyrs there is a strong likelihood that would have been presented to get the later Christians to recant.

---

Genuine question: did you read the post you originally responded to lol? I mentioned most of these sources already:
"Josephus mentions James around 30 years after his death, Clement of Rome references Peter and Paul a generation later, and Tacitus mentions Neronian persecution without naming specific disciples. …."

These are certainly better than acts, but are still not contemporary.

We will just have to agree to disagree on the missing contradictory accounts portion.

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You want a dated Jerusalem Post article. 30 years is extremely close for a historical account during that timeframe. EXTREMELY CLOSE

---

My point was simply that we don't have any contemporary sources, with the vast majority coming a century or more later from Christian sources.

I think it's plausible, if not likely, that a handful of early Christians were martyrs, but I'm not convinced in the church tradition that most of the 12 were martyrs.

---

How many of the eyewitnesses need to be martyred to make a convincing argument, 2, 6, more?

J Warner Wallace, a cold case detective used the same analytical tools he uses for murder cases to looked at the death and resurrection of Christ. He describes the evidence as being "death by 1000 cuts"-so many small things all pointing the same direction. He says the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

His book, Cold Case Christianity, addresses many of the arguments made in this thread

---

As I stated earlier, I don't believe most of the 12 were martyred outside James, and maybe Peter. I'm only being more defensive as your original claim was:
"You left out an important detail - that the disciples of Jesus, all of them, were willing to suffer terrible punishment, even die, rather than retract their claim that Christ rose from the dead."

I have read Cold Case Christianity actually, as well as about two dozen other apologetic books and counter apologetic books. Was not a fan of Wallace personally.

---

Quote:

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"You left out an important detail - that the disciples of Jesus, all of them, were willing to suffer terrible punishment, even die, rather than retract their claim that Christ rose from the dead."

---

These are simply stories (written years later) written by people who have a theoligical reason to promote the idea of martyrdom. The fact is there is no contemporaneous objective independent sources confirming. Which begs the question, if there is an all knowing, powerful, supernatural god who wants to spread the "good news" message he charged fallible mere mortals with spreading, are there not much more convincing ways to reveal himself and achieve his goals. IF the goal is to convert nonbelievers, he's failing badly and isn't very smart about it. If any one of them were truly martyrs, it doesn't validate the belief, but simply confirms they were extremely gullible. People die all the time for misplaced beliefs. Islam is full of martyrs looking for their 72 virgin goats.

---

This isn't about people becoming martyrs for their beliefs but martyrs for what they know to be a lie. Of course you already knew this.

What is your empirical evidence that Christianity is false?

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They don't have to believe it is a lie, although they could. People can convince themselves of anything about the supernatural. Outside of some indication of persecution by Nero, the idea of widespread martyrdom is not supported and is even overstated by Christian lore and legend.

Intercessory prayer.

" some indication of persecution by Nero"

That's like saying the Nazis showed some level of disapproval of the Jews.

Oldbear83 said:

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" some indication of persecution by Nero"

That's like saying the Nazis showed some level of disapproval of the Jews.

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If I'm on the path he's on I'm afraid of where the evidence leads as well