so wait, its ok to violate your free speech if theres a court order telling you not to cause mental or physical harm to you wife/ex-wife and you post what i quoted previously?

How does that not violate your free speech?

This proposal of 15 years in prison for looking at websites, is, i believe, related to Terrorism, I would have thought you would applaud cracking down on Terrorism related stuff like that.

cms186 said:

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so wait, its ok to violate your free speech if theres a court order telling you not to cause mental or physical harm to you wife/ex-wife and you post what i quoted previously?

How does that not violate your free speech?

This proposal of 15 years in prison for looking at websites, is, i believe, related to Terrorism, I would have thought you would applaud cracking down on Terrorism related stuff like that.

---

It's not OK and the article you posted stated as much. Judges in family law cases have been known to overstep their constitutional limits for any number of reasons, particularly "for the kids", but too few people bring them to court for violating their civil rights. Nevertheless, it's intellectually dishonest to claim that there is even a tenuous connection to the type of wholesale suppression of free speech that is going on in the UK in the name of stopping offensive speech....largely protecting Islam.

I don't applaud jailing people for reading. It's an incredible overreach. I applaud jailing people for violent crimes...which do not include emotional distress or offense giving or hurting feelings or causing a postmenopausal harridan to gasp and catch the vapors. Free speech is sacrosanct, even speech you don't happen to like.

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

Approximately 1.7% of people are born with "ambiguous genitalia." The outmoded term is "hermaphrodite." Until fairly recently, the solution was surgery on infants, mostly to make them female, since it's pretty much impossible to go in the other direction. That had some disastrous results when the kid got old and identified as a male.

A small number of people are born with androgyn insensity syndrome, where you're genetically male, but are resistant to male hormones, and thus develop as a female.

About 10% of women have PCOS -- polycystic ovary syndrome--where they have too much male hormone. PCOS can be dire if untreated, leading to infertility, diabetes, obesity, severe acne, damage to internal organs and early death. I have a 70-year-old friend who realized her mother had suffered from and died of untreated PCOS only after her daughter was diagnosed with it in her late 20s. The daughter was married and trying to get pregnant, and was able to have a baby only after receiving treatment for PCOS.

These are physical and hormonal issues that occur naturally that we know about. Roundly condemning people for "choosing" their gender ignores the fact that not everybody is blessed at birth with normal genetalia and some people suffer from conditions that affect their gender identify--like androgyn insensitity syndrome, where the sufferers identify as female but are genetically male.

IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

---

You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

---

No but no one in that is engaged in adultery is making me pretend that I think it's ok with state penalty if I don't. That is the end result of what the left is pushing for with the LGBT agenda. I (not they, but me) must accept and acquiesce, or the power of the government and it's enforcement mechanism will come down on me.

And how is me not choosing to refer to someone they way they think they should be referred to forcing them to do anything? I'm not ripping their dress off. I'm just not using their preferred pronoun. Again, if I am the one publicly shamed for not doing that (and perhaps have the power of the government brought down on me for the same) then preeeetty sure I would be the one being forced to do something.

---

This can become a circular argument really quick. If you are really upset because another human, who happens to be transgendered, would prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then I don't know what to say. It's such an illogical and irrational thing to be upset about, especially when you consider all the real issues we should address as a country. But whatever, keep letting inconsequential issues like this occupy your time and mind, that's what the republicans and democrats really want anyways - for the populace to be distracted from the real issues.

---

I'm not upset about what anyone chooses to do with their life. But if someone forces me to do something against my beliefs, that's when I get upset.

---

I said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again, you are forcing them to do something that is against their beliefs. Just because you think it is immoral, wrong or whatever, that is still their beliefs. The pronoun issue is tangential to the larger topic here. If you don't want to refer to a male to female transgender, who you would most likely think was a female anyways, that is just moronic. Whatever, that doesn't really matter. The bigger issue at hand is that you think they shouldn't live that life, which means you are imposing your beliefs on them. Don't you realize how hypocritical you are being?

Jinx said:

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Approximately 1.7% of people are born with "ambiguous genitalia." The outmoded term is "hermaphrodite." Until fairly recently, the solution was surgery on infants, mostly to make them female, since it's pretty much impossible to go in the other direction. That had some disastrous results when the kid got old and identified as a male.

A small number of people are born with androgyn insensity syndrome, where you're genetically male, but are resistant to male hormones, and thus develop as a female.

About 10% of women have PCOS -- polycystic ovary syndrome--where they have too much male hormone. PCOS can be dire if untreated, leading to infertility, diabetes, obesity, severe acne, damage to internal organs and early death. I have a 70-year-old friend who realized her mother had suffered from and died of untreated PCOS only after her daughter was diagnosed with it in her late 20s. The daughter was married and trying to get pregnant, and was able to have a baby only after receiving treatment for PCOS.

These are physical and hormonal issues that occur naturally that we know about. Roundly condemning people for "choosing" their gender ignores the fact that not everybody is blessed at birth with normal genetalia and some people suffer from conditions that affect their gender identify--like androgyn insensitity syndrome, where the sufferers identify as female but are genetically male.

---

This really has nothing to do with the topic.

What you're talking about is a birth defect or health problem.

No one is condemning transgender people.

I'm against bullying of any sort. The idea that somebody would beat somebody up is terrible.: physically or verbally.

The normal suicide rate across the United States is four percent; the suicide rate in the transgender community is 40 percent.

The idea that 36 percent more transgender people are committing suicide because people are mean to them is ridiculous. It's not true, and it's not backed by any science that anyone can cite. It is pure conjecture. In fact, it is not even true that bullying causes suicide, according to a lot of studies.

For example, in the black community, where the idea is supposedly that America is a racist society, blacks are bullied a lot; in the black community, the black community has significantly lower suicide rates than the white community.

In fact, in third world countries, the suicide rate is significantly lower than in first world countries. Suicide actually seems to be a privilege of the upper classes, if you actually look at it from a financial perspective.

So the idea that suicidality is directly a result of people like me saying, "No. Men are not women and women are not men," it's not true.

What transgendered people or people with gender dysphoria need is mental treatment...not encouragement which may lead them to suicide.

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

Bona Fide Bear said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

I agree that we need research.

But what this movement is leading to is where my main problems lie:

We have 11 year olds being pumped full of estrogen by their parents. Hormones to prevent puberty. Yes in America.

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender. Because their parents are under the false assumption of pseudo science which claims that gender is purely a social construct and that there are no differences between men and women.

Suicide rates actually go up with hormone treatment.

But if we had proper treatment for what is called 'Gender Dysphoria' this will absolutely be a better option than vice versa.

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

See, now these are some reasonable points, I dont pretend to know what goes on in the mind of a Trans-gendered person, I dont, i have no idea, i can imagine it must be very confusing, very scary and at times, very depressing (it confuses me most of the time!), I imagine if Trans-people were regarded as completely normal and had no bias or hatred directed towards them, it would make some of their problems go away, thats for sure, but thats easy to say, and even though i personally feel that everyone should be treated equally and have the same rights, I wont deny that the issue of Trans-people makes me uneasy.

I dont have a perfect solution for how to handle the issue, but treating these people like they are inferior isnt the answer, imo.

I will say that I 100% dont think that Children should be allowed to transition, i personally think that is ridiculous, we have an age limit for drinking, driving, voting etc. but not for making a massive and life-altering change to your body? I think that is awful.

GolemII said:

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If you think you are a woman with a penls or a man with a vagina, you are mentally ill.

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I agree and nobody is being "compassionate" or doing the person with this particular mental illness any favors by indulging them in their sickness. If somebody believes they are Napoleon reincarnated the loving reaction is to encourage them to seek treatment for their mental delusion and help them in doing so; it isn't to just agree with them and say okay, because you're more comfortable thinking you are a former French Emperor and conqueror, we all need to just accept that and how dare anyone question your feelings. And it's not a question of why not just accept delusional people because they aren't negatively impacting your life - it's a question of what really should be the proper response if we really want to be caring and compassionate.

Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

---

You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

---

No but no one in that is engaged in adultery is making me pretend that I think it's ok with state penalty if I don't. That is the end result of what the left is pushing for with the LGBT agenda. I (not they, but me) must accept and acquiesce, or the power of the government and it's enforcement mechanism will come down on me.

And how is me not choosing to refer to someone they way they think they should be referred to forcing them to do anything? I'm not ripping their dress off. I'm just not using their preferred pronoun. Again, if I am the one publicly shamed for not doing that (and perhaps have the power of the government brought down on me for the same) then preeeetty sure I would be the one being forced to do something.

---

This can become a circular argument really quick. If you are really upset because another human, who happens to be transgendered, would prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then I don't know what to say. It's such an illogical and irrational thing to be upset about, especially when you consider all the real issues we should address as a country. But whatever, keep letting inconsequential issues like this occupy your time and mind, that's what the republicans and democrats really want anyways - for the populace to be distracted from the real issues.

---

I'm not upset about what anyone chooses to do with their life. But if someone forces me to do something against my beliefs, that's when I get upset.

---

I said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again, you are forcing them to do something that is against their beliefs. Just because you think it is immoral, wrong or whatever, that is still their beliefs. The pronoun issue is tangential to the larger topic here. If you don't want to refer to a male to female transgender, who you would most likely think was a female anyways, that is just moronic. Whatever, that doesn't really matter. The bigger issue at hand is that you think they shouldn't live that life, which means you are imposing your beliefs on them. Don't you realize how hypocritical you are being?

---

I guess I missed what I'm forcing them to do?

IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

---

You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

---

No but no one in that is engaged in adultery is making me pretend that I think it's ok with state penalty if I don't. That is the end result of what the left is pushing for with the LGBT agenda. I (not they, but me) must accept and acquiesce, or the power of the government and it's enforcement mechanism will come down on me.

And how is me not choosing to refer to someone they way they think they should be referred to forcing them to do anything? I'm not ripping their dress off. I'm just not using their preferred pronoun. Again, if I am the one publicly shamed for not doing that (and perhaps have the power of the government brought down on me for the same) then preeeetty sure I would be the one being forced to do something.

---

This can become a circular argument really quick. If you are really upset because another human, who happens to be transgendered, would prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then I don't know what to say. It's such an illogical and irrational thing to be upset about, especially when you consider all the real issues we should address as a country. But whatever, keep letting inconsequential issues like this occupy your time and mind, that's what the republicans and democrats really want anyways - for the populace to be distracted from the real issues.

---

I'm not upset about what anyone chooses to do with their life. But if someone forces me to do something against my beliefs, that's when I get upset.

---

I said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again, you are forcing them to do something that is against their beliefs. Just because you think it is immoral, wrong or whatever, that is still their beliefs. The pronoun issue is tangential to the larger topic here. If you don't want to refer to a male to female transgender, who you would most likely think was a female anyways, that is just moronic. Whatever, that doesn't really matter. The bigger issue at hand is that you think they shouldn't live that life, which means you are imposing your beliefs on them. Don't you realize how hypocritical you are being?

---

I guess I missed what I'm forcing them to do?

---

They believe they were born in the wrong body. However you want to classify that, that is their belief. If you don't want to call a person that is living as a woman the female pronoun, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. If you (the collective you) take it further and say they have a mental illness and don't even try to understand what is going on in their heads or in their life, and you just say they shouldn't be, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. This really isn't that hard to understand.

Let people live however they want. It really has no impact on you. They just want to live life and not be judged for how they live their life, just like all of us.

Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

---

You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

---

No but no one in that is engaged in adultery is making me pretend that I think it's ok with state penalty if I don't. That is the end result of what the left is pushing for with the LGBT agenda. I (not they, but me) must accept and acquiesce, or the power of the government and it's enforcement mechanism will come down on me.

And how is me not choosing to refer to someone they way they think they should be referred to forcing them to do anything? I'm not ripping their dress off. I'm just not using their preferred pronoun. Again, if I am the one publicly shamed for not doing that (and perhaps have the power of the government brought down on me for the same) then preeeetty sure I would be the one being forced to do something.

---

This can become a circular argument really quick. If you are really upset because another human, who happens to be transgendered, would prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then I don't know what to say. It's such an illogical and irrational thing to be upset about, especially when you consider all the real issues we should address as a country. But whatever, keep letting inconsequential issues like this occupy your time and mind, that's what the republicans and democrats really want anyways - for the populace to be distracted from the real issues.

---

I'm not upset about what anyone chooses to do with their life. But if someone forces me to do something against my beliefs, that's when I get upset.

---

I said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again, you are forcing them to do something that is against their beliefs. Just because you think it is immoral, wrong or whatever, that is still their beliefs. The pronoun issue is tangential to the larger topic here. If you don't want to refer to a male to female transgender, who you would most likely think was a female anyways, that is just moronic. Whatever, that doesn't really matter. The bigger issue at hand is that you think they shouldn't live that life, which means you are imposing your beliefs on them. Don't you realize how hypocritical you are being?

---

I guess I missed what I'm forcing them to do?

---

They believe they were born in the wrong body. However you want to classify that, that is their belief. If you don't want to call a person that is living as a woman the female pronoun, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. If you (the collective you) take it further and say they have a mental illness and don't even try to understand what is going on in their heads or in their life, and you just say they shouldn't be, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. This really isn't that hard to understand.

Let people live however they want. It really has no impact on you. They just want to live life and not be judged for how they live their life, just like all of us.

---

Two acquaintances, a married couple, have a daughter who is transgender. At the onset of puberty, she had a crisis. They ended up consenting to hormone therapy. The reason they agreed to it is they were focusing, as my friend said, "on her survival." If she didn't receive the therapy, they were afraid she would commit suicide. Even those who are lucky enough to have parents and families who love them unconditionally struggle. Transgendered and "gender non-conforming" people have a staggering suicide rate of over 40%, with higher rates--above 45%--for transgendered. Here's the study linkand an excerpt below: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Whatever you feel about it, it's a pretty devastating issue to have. Here's the excerpt:

Analysis of other demographic variables found prevalence of suicide attempts was highest among those who are younger (18 to 24: 45%), multiracial (54%) and American Indian or Alaska Native (56%), have lower levels of educational attainment (high school or less: 48-49%), and have lower annual household income (less than $10,000: 54%). Prevalence of suicide attempts is elevated among those who disclose to everyone that they are transgender or gender-non-conforming (50%) and among those that report others can tell always (42%) or most of the time (45%) that they are transgender or gender non-conforming even if they don't tell them

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

---

I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

---

You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

---

No but no one in that is engaged in adultery is making me pretend that I think it's ok with state penalty if I don't. That is the end result of what the left is pushing for with the LGBT agenda. I (not they, but me) must accept and acquiesce, or the power of the government and it's enforcement mechanism will come down on me.

And how is me not choosing to refer to someone they way they think they should be referred to forcing them to do anything? I'm not ripping their dress off. I'm just not using their preferred pronoun. Again, if I am the one publicly shamed for not doing that (and perhaps have the power of the government brought down on me for the same) then preeeetty sure I would be the one being forced to do something.

---

This can become a circular argument really quick. If you are really upset because another human, who happens to be transgendered, would prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then I don't know what to say. It's such an illogical and irrational thing to be upset about, especially when you consider all the real issues we should address as a country. But whatever, keep letting inconsequential issues like this occupy your time and mind, that's what the republicans and democrats really want anyways - for the populace to be distracted from the real issues.

---

I'm not upset about what anyone chooses to do with their life. But if someone forces me to do something against my beliefs, that's when I get upset.

---

I said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again, you are forcing them to do something that is against their beliefs. Just because you think it is immoral, wrong or whatever, that is still their beliefs. The pronoun issue is tangential to the larger topic here. If you don't want to refer to a male to female transgender, who you would most likely think was a female anyways, that is just moronic. Whatever, that doesn't really matter. The bigger issue at hand is that you think they shouldn't live that life, which means you are imposing your beliefs on them. Don't you realize how hypocritical you are being?

---

I guess I missed what I'm forcing them to do?

---

They believe they were born in the wrong body. However you want to classify that, that is their belief. If you don't want to call a person that is living as a woman the female pronoun, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. If you (the collective you) take it further and say they have a mental illness and don't even try to understand what is going on in their heads or in their life, and you just say they shouldn't be, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. This really isn't that hard to understand.

Let people live however they want. It really has no impact on you. They just want to live life and not be judged for how they live their life, just like all of us.

---

So what should we do with a person that has a very very very sincere belief that he or she is the President and is trying to get in to the White House?

Jinx said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

---

I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

---

No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

---

You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

---

No but no one in that is engaged in adultery is making me pretend that I think it's ok with state penalty if I don't. That is the end result of what the left is pushing for with the LGBT agenda. I (not they, but me) must accept and acquiesce, or the power of the government and it's enforcement mechanism will come down on me.

And how is me not choosing to refer to someone they way they think they should be referred to forcing them to do anything? I'm not ripping their dress off. I'm just not using their preferred pronoun. Again, if I am the one publicly shamed for not doing that (and perhaps have the power of the government brought down on me for the same) then preeeetty sure I would be the one being forced to do something.

---

This can become a circular argument really quick. If you are really upset because another human, who happens to be transgendered, would prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then I don't know what to say. It's such an illogical and irrational thing to be upset about, especially when you consider all the real issues we should address as a country. But whatever, keep letting inconsequential issues like this occupy your time and mind, that's what the republicans and democrats really want anyways - for the populace to be distracted from the real issues.

---

I'm not upset about what anyone chooses to do with their life. But if someone forces me to do something against my beliefs, that's when I get upset.

---

I said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again, you are forcing them to do something that is against their beliefs. Just because you think it is immoral, wrong or whatever, that is still their beliefs. The pronoun issue is tangential to the larger topic here. If you don't want to refer to a male to female transgender, who you would most likely think was a female anyways, that is just moronic. Whatever, that doesn't really matter. The bigger issue at hand is that you think they shouldn't live that life, which means you are imposing your beliefs on them. Don't you realize how hypocritical you are being?

---

I guess I missed what I'm forcing them to do?

---

They believe they were born in the wrong body. However you want to classify that, that is their belief. If you don't want to call a person that is living as a woman the female pronoun, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. If you (the collective you) take it further and say they have a mental illness and don't even try to understand what is going on in their heads or in their life, and you just say they shouldn't be, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. This really isn't that hard to understand.

Let people live however they want. It really has no impact on you. They just want to live life and not be judged for how they live their life, just like all of us.

---

So what should we do with a person that has a very very very sincere belief that he or she is the President and is trying to get in to the White House?

---

well that obviously does impact on someone else, silly example

Some friends of a friend are raising their children this way. Taking great care not to "force" boy or girl things on their child from infancy on just so that they don't inadvertently contribute to an existential crisis later, should the child really want to be a different gender.

If gender really is fluid, that is totally the logical conclusion of how parents should act with their children. What you want to do when you grow up is very fluid, and we would all cringe at a parent that from infancy tells everyone that their daughter is an attorney and their son is a doctor. Same thing with really anything that's fluid--who you are going to marry, where you're going to live, etc...

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Jinx said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

---

I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

---

No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

---

I have faith in kids to figure that out on their own. I bought plenty of girlie stuff, but also lots of unisex toys for my daughters. They especially loved the plastic dinosaurs I bought at museum shops--we had a large collection in all shapes and sizes, and the girls loved them, because they could go everywhere, including into the bathtub or to the beach. The girls formed them into family groups, with the bigger ones Mommies and Daddies and the smaller ones children. When boys came over and played with dinosaurs, they fought each other and roared.

cms186 said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

---

You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

---

No but no one in that is engaged in adultery is making me pretend that I think it's ok with state penalty if I don't. That is the end result of what the left is pushing for with the LGBT agenda. I (not they, but me) must accept and acquiesce, or the power of the government and it's enforcement mechanism will come down on me.

And how is me not choosing to refer to someone they way they think they should be referred to forcing them to do anything? I'm not ripping their dress off. I'm just not using their preferred pronoun. Again, if I am the one publicly shamed for not doing that (and perhaps have the power of the government brought down on me for the same) then preeeetty sure I would be the one being forced to do something.

---

This can become a circular argument really quick. If you are really upset because another human, who happens to be transgendered, would prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then I don't know what to say. It's such an illogical and irrational thing to be upset about, especially when you consider all the real issues we should address as a country. But whatever, keep letting inconsequential issues like this occupy your time and mind, that's what the republicans and democrats really want anyways - for the populace to be distracted from the real issues.

---

I'm not upset about what anyone chooses to do with their life. But if someone forces me to do something against my beliefs, that's when I get upset.

---

I said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again, you are forcing them to do something that is against their beliefs. Just because you think it is immoral, wrong or whatever, that is still their beliefs. The pronoun issue is tangential to the larger topic here. If you don't want to refer to a male to female transgender, who you would most likely think was a female anyways, that is just moronic. Whatever, that doesn't really matter. The bigger issue at hand is that you think they shouldn't live that life, which means you are imposing your beliefs on them. Don't you realize how hypocritical you are being?

---

I guess I missed what I'm forcing them to do?

---

They believe they were born in the wrong body. However you want to classify that, that is their belief. If you don't want to call a person that is living as a woman the female pronoun, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. If you (the collective you) take it further and say they have a mental illness and don't even try to understand what is going on in their heads or in their life, and you just say they shouldn't be, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. This really isn't that hard to understand.

Let people live however they want. It really has no impact on you. They just want to live life and not be judged for how they live their life, just like all of us.

---

So what should we do with a person that has a very very very sincere belief that he or she is the President and is trying to get in to the White House?

---

well that obviously does impact on someone else, silly example

---

No, it's a perfect example. If someone wants to say they're the President, no one will stop them from doing that. But if they start trying to act on that in a way that abuts against someone else, then people will say "well, we can factually prove that you're not the President, despite your sincerely held belief, so the rights of the occupant of the White House trumps your sincerely held belief."

Same with trans issues. Using bathrooms as an example, someone is claiming entrance to an area where other men and other women have a legitimate right to privacy because of a sincerely held belief, and want laws enshrining their "right" to do so. It's a conflict between the two. Just like a conflict between the person seeking access to the White House and the President, we should look at the facts, not a person's sincerely held beliefs.

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Jinx said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

---

I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

---

No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

---

Source? I have never heard of this. Jerry Springer show?

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

---

You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

---

No but no one in that is engaged in adultery is making me pretend that I think it's ok with state penalty if I don't. That is the end result of what the left is pushing for with the LGBT agenda. I (not they, but me) must accept and acquiesce, or the power of the government and it's enforcement mechanism will come down on me.

And how is me not choosing to refer to someone they way they think they should be referred to forcing them to do anything? I'm not ripping their dress off. I'm just not using their preferred pronoun. Again, if I am the one publicly shamed for not doing that (and perhaps have the power of the government brought down on me for the same) then preeeetty sure I would be the one being forced to do something.

---

This can become a circular argument really quick. If you are really upset because another human, who happens to be transgendered, would prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then I don't know what to say. It's such an illogical and irrational thing to be upset about, especially when you consider all the real issues we should address as a country. But whatever, keep letting inconsequential issues like this occupy your time and mind, that's what the republicans and democrats really want anyways - for the populace to be distracted from the real issues.

---

I'm not upset about what anyone chooses to do with their life. But if someone forces me to do something against my beliefs, that's when I get upset.

---

I said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again, you are forcing them to do something that is against their beliefs. Just because you think it is immoral, wrong or whatever, that is still their beliefs. The pronoun issue is tangential to the larger topic here. If you don't want to refer to a male to female transgender, who you would most likely think was a female anyways, that is just moronic. Whatever, that doesn't really matter. The bigger issue at hand is that you think they shouldn't live that life, which means you are imposing your beliefs on them. Don't you realize how hypocritical you are being?

---

I guess I missed what I'm forcing them to do?

---

They believe they were born in the wrong body. However you want to classify that, that is their belief. If you don't want to call a person that is living as a woman the female pronoun, then you are forcing your beliefs on them.

---

I can't even begin to explain how wrong this is. Your conclusion here is that by not acquiescing to someone's sincerely held beliefs, I am forcing my belief on them?

Jinx said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Jinx said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

---

I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

---

No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

---

I have faith in kids to figure that out on their own. I bought plenty of girlie stuff, but also lots of unisex toys for my daughters. They especially loved the plastic dinosaurs I bought at museum shops--we had a large collection in all shapes and sizes, and the girls loved them, because they could go everywhere, including into the bathtub or to the beach. The girls formed them into family groups, with the bigger ones Mommies and Daddies and the smaller ones children. When boys came over and played with dinosaurs, they fought each other and roared.

---

But Some advocates now want social encouragement for anyone, even toddlers exhibiting transgender tendencies, to embrace what they believe is always an immutable trait. They feel hormonal treatment to delay puberty and later, sex-reassignment surgery, is a human right. Many universities now offer gender-reassignment surgery coverage. Several states: California, New Jersey and Massachusetts have passed laws barring psychiatrists, even if parents request it, from attempting to re-orient children toward identification with their sex.

Parents are now encouraged to subject the child to procedures that I think are a form of child abuse, either with hormones to slow puberty, actual surgical manipulations, etcetera. I think this is wrong, that people should wait until an informed age of consent. Parents should not be doing this to their children.

According to the DSM-V, as many as 98% of gender confused boys and 88% of gender confused girls eventually accept their biological sex after naturally passing through puberty Conditioning children into believing that a lifetime of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex is normal and healthful is child abuse IMO.

quash said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Jinx said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

---

I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

---

No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

---

Source? I have never heard of this. Jerry Springer show?

---

As mentioned above, I literally know someone who is doing this with their children. And just spend 5 minutes on Huffington Post. This behavior would be roundly applauded there.

It's the exact same thing as the lesbian/gay thing. If those are options, as the argument goes, and those options can become apparent at any point in life (but especially during puberty), then the completely logical conclusion is that you as a parent must be neutral on gender and on sexuality, at a minimum through puberty.

quash said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Jinx said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

---

I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

---

No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

---

Source? I have never heard of this. Jerry Springer show?

---

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043345/The-California-boy-11-undergoing-hormone-blocking-treatment.html

IASIP Rocks said:

---

quash said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Jinx said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

---

I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

---

No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

---

Source? I have never heard of this. Jerry Springer show?

---

As mentioned above, I literally know someone who is doing this with their children. And just spend 5 minutes on Huffington Post. This behavior would be roundly applauded there.

It's the exact same thing as the lesbian/gay thing. If those are options, as the argument goes, and those options can become apparent at any point in life (but especially during puberty), then the completely logical conclusion is that you as a parent must be neutral on gender and on sexuality, at a minimum through puberty.

---

My father used to say that children could survive most of the stupid mistakes their parents made in raising them. I hope he's right.

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

quash said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Jinx said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

---

I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

---

No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

---

Source? I have never heard of this. Jerry Springer show?

---

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043345/The-California-boy-11-undergoing-hormone-blocking-treatment.html

---

No. You said "ZERO signs of dysphoria."

From your link "The mothers say that one of the first things Thomas told them when he learned sign language aged three - because of a speech impediment - was, 'I am a girl'."

Plus, you know, it's right in the headline...

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

Your argument doubles back on itself.

If it doesn't matter what gender someone thinks they are . . . it should matter even less what gender I think they are. How does it impact your life that it makes me feel more comfortable to acknowledge the reality that they are actually a man? Let me be who I want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

---

You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

---

No but no one in that is engaged in adultery is making me pretend that I think it's ok with state penalty if I don't. That is the end result of what the left is pushing for with the LGBT agenda. I (not they, but me) must accept and acquiesce, or the power of the government and it's enforcement mechanism will come down on me.

And how is me not choosing to refer to someone they way they think they should be referred to forcing them to do anything? I'm not ripping their dress off. I'm just not using their preferred pronoun. Again, if I am the one publicly shamed for not doing that (and perhaps have the power of the government brought down on me for the same) then preeeetty sure I would be the one being forced to do something.

---

This can become a circular argument really quick. If you are really upset because another human, who happens to be transgendered, would prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then I don't know what to say. It's such an illogical and irrational thing to be upset about, especially when you consider all the real issues we should address as a country. But whatever, keep letting inconsequential issues like this occupy your time and mind, that's what the republicans and democrats really want anyways - for the populace to be distracted from the real issues.

---

I'm not upset about what anyone chooses to do with their life. But if someone forces me to do something against my beliefs, that's when I get upset.

---

I said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again, you are forcing them to do something that is against their beliefs. Just because you think it is immoral, wrong or whatever, that is still their beliefs. The pronoun issue is tangential to the larger topic here. If you don't want to refer to a male to female transgender, who you would most likely think was a female anyways, that is just moronic. Whatever, that doesn't really matter. The bigger issue at hand is that you think they shouldn't live that life, which means you are imposing your beliefs on them. Don't you realize how hypocritical you are being?

---

I guess I missed what I'm forcing them to do?

---

They believe they were born in the wrong body. However you want to classify that, that is their belief. If you don't want to call a person that is living as a woman the female pronoun, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. If you (the collective you) take it further and say they have a mental illness and don't even try to understand what is going on in their heads or in their life, and you just say they shouldn't be, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. This really isn't that hard to understand.

Let people live however they want. It really has no impact on you. They just want to live life and not be judged for how they live their life, just like all of us.

---

You have this so entirely backwards.

If a mentally ill person says to you "I feel like and believe I am a General Electric toaster oven . . . and you HAVE to agree with me." ---- and you respond, "Actually, no, you're not a toaster oven, you're a human being." Only one of you is forcing their beliefs on the other person.

Also, I just want to live my life and not be judged by you for how I live my life. My beliefs have no impact on you. Why do you get to tell me how to live and what to believe and what pronouns I can use? Let me live however I want. Right?

quash said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

quash said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Jinx said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

---

Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

---

We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

---

I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

---

No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

---

Source? I have never heard of this. Jerry Springer show?

---

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043345/The-California-boy-11-undergoing-hormone-blocking-treatment.html

---

No. You said "ZERO signs of dysphoria."

From your link "The mothers say that one of the first things Thomas told them when he learned sign language aged three - because of a speech impediment - was, 'I am a girl'."

Plus, you know, it's right in the headline...

---

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3049056/Parents-five-year-old-transgender-boy-share-son-s-transition-story-world-order-inspire-people-embrace-child-s-true-identity.html

Ok here is one.

At five years old they can barely tie their own shoes. They can't cross a busy street alone. And we think they have the knowledge to make this sort of massive life-altering decision?

I can't believe BEAR RAMMAGE and I found something we agree on.

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

IASIP Rocks said:

---

Bona Fide Bear said:

---

Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

---

It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

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You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

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Having read this thread in its entirety, I'm not sure I've seen a single poster argue that we should force transgenders to live opposite of whatever gender they feel comfortable with. If someone suffers from such mental illness, I agree with you laws aren't going to make them feel differently. That is why I prefer the CS Lewis approach to speaking truth, but not forcing a certain lifestyle on anyone.

However, that argument works both ways. Private businesses and individuals should not be forced to change THEIR beliefs to conform to a mentally-ill way of thinking in order to help transgenders feel better about their choices. I am reminded of the police officer who was suspended for writing male on the citation issued to a man who identifies as woman. To me that is a dangerous and absurd way of thinking, because it propagates a lie. By way of another example, I don't think the Oregon public school system should be forced to allow a male who identifies as female to compete against other females merely because of such self-identification. By way of another example, letting a transgender adopt a child poses a risk of harm to the child, in my opinion, on many levels. We would not place a child in the care of a person who suffers mental illness. Why should it be any different in the case of transgenders.

In short, I am a big fan of live and let live. It doesn't mean we must conform to a certain PC way of thinking, or not speak out against the mental illness of transgenderism (which is all I think the OP was doing). Yet there are certain standards that should be enforced for the good of society, as pointed out above.

Bona Fide Bear said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

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It matters if my tax dollars are going to pay for surgically or pharmaceutically trans gendering someone.

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Tell me exactly how many of your tax dollars are paying for that. And then let's compare that # to all of the other government waste. I guarantee you it is a minuscule amount compared to all the others. Most transgenders pay most or all of the bill themself. If we are really going to go down that rabbit hole, there are probably a lot of elective drugs or medications you (the collective you) take that I don't want to indirectly foot the bill for.

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While I am with you on government waste, should ANY tax dollars be paying for a sex change? Don't think the two are mutually exclusive, but further indicators of a spending problem.

Bona Fide Bear said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

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I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

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To the extent you mean that Christ loved and died for all sinners, whether adulterers, idolators, fornicators, homosexuals, liars, the greedy, etc., couldn't agree with you more. Thank God for that. If not, we would all be in trouble.

However, to the extent that you are arguing that Christ encouraged his followers to allow unrepentant sin and immorality into the body of Christ, couldn't disagree with you more. There are countless examples of Christ admonishing people for their sinful lifestyle choices, and calling for repentance and a lifestyle change. See Zacchaeus. See the woman at the well. See the woman caught in adultery.

That was the thing with Christ. He was a fork in the road. When we encounter him, we have a choice to make - do we continue living as slaves to sin, or do we allow him to change our hearts and behavior, die to ourselves, and conform to HIS ways? This is true of the transgender every much as it applies to me and my sin.