Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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IASIP Rocks said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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Why does it matter? How does it impact you if a person born with male genitalia thinks they are a woman? How does this impact your life that it makes them feel more comfortable to live as a woman? Let them he who they want to be. We have much bigger issues as a country to deal with.

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It matters when people force us to agree with them. See the California law that criminalizes health care workers who don't refer to people by their preferred pronoun. That's just the beginning.

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You do realize you are trying to force them to agree with you, right? You are getting upset about a pronoun, but you are asking them to completely change their lives from what they feel is comfortable. It might be a mental health issue, it may not be biological at all, but they don't feel comfortable living in the gender they were born with. And you want to force them to live a certain way so you don't have to be inconvenienced about a pronoun and so you don't have to think in the back of your mind that some people are living a life that you think is immoral. Like I said, we have much bigger issues to deal with than this. And if we are going to focus on bedroom issues, where does it stop? Are you going to force that couple in your church that really loves anal to stop? I guarantee you someone in your church enjoys that. What about adultery? Are you going to force the adulterers to stop? Are we going to make it our position to stop people from doing what they do, or are we going to let humans have free will and let God decide on judgement day?

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No but no one in that is engaged in adultery is making me pretend that I think it's ok with state penalty if I don't. That is the end result of what the left is pushing for with the LGBT agenda. I (not they, but me) must accept and acquiesce, or the power of the government and it's enforcement mechanism will come down on me.

And how is me not choosing to refer to someone they way they think they should be referred to forcing them to do anything? I'm not ripping their dress off. I'm just not using their preferred pronoun. Again, if I am the one publicly shamed for not doing that (and perhaps have the power of the government brought down on me for the same) then preeeetty sure I would be the one being forced to do something.

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This can become a circular argument really quick. If you are really upset because another human, who happens to be transgendered, would prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then I don't know what to say. It's such an illogical and irrational thing to be upset about, especially when you consider all the real issues we should address as a country. But whatever, keep letting inconsequential issues like this occupy your time and mind, that's what the republicans and democrats really want anyways - for the populace to be distracted from the real issues.

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I'm not upset about what anyone chooses to do with their life. But if someone forces me to do something against my beliefs, that's when I get upset.

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I said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again, you are forcing them to do something that is against their beliefs. Just because you think it is immoral, wrong or whatever, that is still their beliefs. The pronoun issue is tangential to the larger topic here. If you don't want to refer to a male to female transgender, who you would most likely think was a female anyways, that is just moronic. Whatever, that doesn't really matter. The bigger issue at hand is that you think they shouldn't live that life, which means you are imposing your beliefs on them. Don't you realize how hypocritical you are being?

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I guess I missed what I'm forcing them to do?

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They believe they were born in the wrong body. However you want to classify that, that is their belief. If you don't want to call a person that is living as a woman the female pronoun, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. If you (the collective you) take it further and say they have a mental illness and don't even try to understand what is going on in their heads or in their life, and you just say they shouldn't be, then you are forcing your beliefs on them. This really isn't that hard to understand.

Let people live however they want. It really has no impact on you. They just want to live life and not be judged for how they live their life, just like all of us.

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Just FYI, transgenderism has long been (and still is) termed a form of mental illness by pretty much every medical organization in the United States.

The question for us as a society is how far we go in letting people's choices define them, when science and biology state otherwise? Is it forcing one's belief on a transgender man when we say you are unable to compete with women because your biology gives you a distinct and unfair advantage? Or should we ignore science and biology (not to mention the unfair advantage) for fear or causing hurt feelings or worse, ostracization or depression?

I don't think there is any black and white lines that can be drawn here.

So, if I move to California and self-identify as Jesus Christ, what kind of predicament does that put the libs in? I mean, most of them don't believe in Christ anyway. But, i'd be standing right in front of them. How could they deny me/HIM?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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So, if I move to California and self-identify as Jesus Christ, what kind of predicament does that put the libs in? I mean, most of them don't believe in Christ anyway. But, i'd be standing right in front of them. How could they deny me/HIM?

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I think that means that you are clinging especially if you have some guns.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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So, if I move to California and self-identify as Jesus Christ, what kind of predicament does that put the libs in? I mean, most of them don't believe in Christ anyway. But, i'd be standing right in front of them. How could they deny me/HIM?

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Claiming you're the son of God and a messiah worshipped by a large segment of the world's population is different from making a private claim that affects only you, your family and others with whom you interact--that your physiology is male but you feel like a female, or vice versa.

I'm curious as to how people whose political push is for greater individual freedom with less government interference--to the point where some elements of the GOP are making a concerted effort to kill any plan that would require everyone to contribute to a system of health care that would benefit everyone--don't believe that such freedom should extend to individual choice regarding whether to live as a man or woman.

I'd be interested in reading about how previous societies coped with transgendered people. All I've read are the few aprocryphal stories about the soldier who fought in the silver war or the priest who spent his life in a parish--no one finds out these men were actually women until their deaths. And in some cases, those women chose to live as men because they didn't like the limited choices available to women, who couldn't become doctors or soldiers, not because they were truly transgendered.

Jinx said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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So, if I move to California and self-identify as Jesus Christ, what kind of predicament does that put the libs in? I mean, most of them don't believe in Christ anyway. But, i'd be standing right in front of them. How could they deny me/HIM?

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Claiming you're the son of God and a messiah worshipped by a large segment of the world's population is different from making a private claim that affects only you, your family and others with whom you interact--that your physiology is male but you feel like a female, or vice versa.

I'm curious as to how people whose political push is for greater individual freedom with less government interference--to the point where some elements of the GOP are making a concerted effort to kill any plan that would require everyone to contribute to a system of health care that would benefit everyone--don't believe that such freedom should extend to individual choice regarding whether to live as a man or woman.

I'd be interested in reading about how previous societies coped with transgendered people. All I've read are the few aprocryphal stories about the soldier who fought in the silver war or the priest who spent his life in a parish--no one finds out these men were actually women until their deaths. And in some cases, those women chose to live as men because they didn't like the limited choices available to women, who couldn't become doctors or soldiers, not because they were truly transgendered.

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I've wondered how a woman would feel about transgenders competing in female athletics. If we are to treat them as women, this is the next obvious step. There are a few examples of it happening already, with the Oregon transgender winning the state title in the 100m hurdles in Oregon, and the transgender competing in ultimate fighting (where "she" destroyed her opponents). Thoughts?

Is lying a sin?
In GOD's economy, is it ever okay to lie?

If you answer yes to both, I can't see how one could ever say it's okay to accept/condone/capitulate to someone else's demand that we lie to ourselves using their choice of pronoun.

This is not to say that, I myself don't frequently rationalize some lie or embellishment. I do. That still doesn't mean it isn't a sin.

BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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quash said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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quash said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Jinx said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

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I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

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We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

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I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

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No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

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Source? I have never heard of this. Jerry Springer show?

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043345/The-California-boy-11-undergoing-hormone-blocking-treatment.html

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No. You said "ZERO signs of dysphoria."

From your link "The mothers say that one of the first things Thomas told them when he learned sign language aged three - because of a speech impediment - was, 'I am a girl'."

Plus, you know, it's right in the headline...

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3049056/Parents-five-year-old-transgender-boy-share-son-s-transition-story-world-order-inspire-people-embrace-child-s-true-identity.html

Ok here is one.

At five years old they can barely tie their own shoes. They can't cross a busy street alone. And we think they have the knowledge to make this sort of massive life-altering decision?

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Dude. Remember I asked for a source to where parents forced a gender switch on a child with, in your words, "zero signs of dysphoria".

You have now provided 2 stories where 'It was his choice', to quote the headline of your second link. Come on.

Mothra said:

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Jinx said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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So, if I move to California and self-identify as Jesus Christ, what kind of predicament does that put the libs in? I mean, most of them don't believe in Christ anyway. But, i'd be standing right in front of them. How could they deny me/HIM?

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Claiming you're the son of God and a messiah worshipped by a large segment of the world's population is different from making a private claim that affects only you, your family and others with whom you interact--that your physiology is male but you feel like a female, or vice versa.

I'm curious as to how people whose political push is for greater individual freedom with less government interference--to the point where some elements of the GOP are making a concerted effort to kill any plan that would require everyone to contribute to a system of health care that would benefit everyone--don't believe that such freedom should extend to individual choice regarding whether to live as a man or woman.

I'd be interested in reading about how previous societies coped with transgendered people. All I've read are the few aprocryphal stories about the soldier who fought in the silver war or the priest who spent his life in a parish--no one finds out these men were actually women until their deaths. And in some cases, those women chose to live as men because they didn't like the limited choices available to women, who couldn't become doctors or soldiers, not because they were truly transgendered.

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I've wondered how a woman would feel about transgenders competing in female athletics. If we are to treat them as women, this is the next obvious step. There are a few examples of it happening already, with the Oregon transgender winning the state title in the 100m hurdles in Oregon, and the transgender competing in ultimate fighting (where "she" destroyed her opponents). Thoughts?

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I think that most places that allow it base it on testosterone levels. You have to have below X amount of testosterone in your system to compete as a female.

quash said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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quash said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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quash said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Jinx said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Bona Fide Bear said:

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BEAR RAMMAGE said:

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Many of you asked why I posted this, and or what concerns I have.

The current transgender suicide rate is over 40%. Most of these suicides are after transitioning.

It's not a matter of open-mindedness and or accepting; I would love for trans people to get the treatment that they see fit.

The goal behind the transgender movement as pertaining to civil rights is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That's nonsense.

According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not: This suggests there's an extremely high comorbidity between transgenderism (that mental state)e, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

We don't need society encouraging or glorifying transgenderism.

If you're going to sacrifice the entire society's proper definition of sex because you think that there is, in legal terms, somebody with an "eggshell skull," meaning somebody who has a preexisting condition that makes them more susceptible to criticism, that is not a way to run a society.

---

I think there needs to be a lot of research completed to determine why the attempted suicide rates are that high. I do not personally know a transgendered person that has tried to commit suicide; however, I have known people over the years through volunteer work I have done that have committed suicide. Suicide is obviously a very complex issue with a lot of factors at play, but one big factor that seems to be common is the person didn't feel accepted. I don't think we should legislate on making sure everyone feels accepted, but a reasonable person could conclude that transgendered people may have trouble feeling accepted by their family, their peers and the public in general. A good example of this was the poster in this thread that can't even use a particular pronoun with respect to transgendered people.

So Rammage, I respectfully disagree with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are trying to say the rate of attempted suicides is high for transgendered people merely because they are transgendered. That seems to be a very simplistic way to approach the issue. There are very likely much bigger issues at play such as an unaccepting family, classmates that are critical because the transgendered person is different and a vocal and critical group of people that say they shouldn't exist.

I'm not sure if just accepting someone for who they are, something Jesus taught us all to do, is "encouraging or glorifying transgenderism." I think it is just being human to understand that every person is different.

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We have 5 year olds being told to CHOOSE a gender.

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I don't think the 5-year-olds "are being told to choose a gender."

A small number are choosing the opposite gender--as a few children always have. Only, how, they're less likely to be told their choice is wrong or bad or of the devil.

You've got to wonder if allowing a kid with gender dysphoria to say "I feel more like a girl" if he's a boy or "I feel more like a boy" if she's a girl will reduce the suicide rate among transgendered people.

I would be very uncomfortable about allowing my child to choose hormone therapy or surgery. I'm glad I didn't face that choice.

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No I mean there are literally people who are convinced they should give their child this option even if the child shows ZERO signs of gender dysphoria.

And if this starts to gain traction as the norm or as part of our culture...imagine how many screwed up kids we will have on our hands pumped full of hormones etc.

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Source? I have never heard of this. Jerry Springer show?

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043345/The-California-boy-11-undergoing-hormone-blocking-treatment.html

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No. You said "ZERO signs of dysphoria."

From your link "The mothers say that one of the first things Thomas told them when he learned sign language aged three - because of a speech impediment - was, 'I am a girl'."

Plus, you know, it's right in the headline...

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3049056/Parents-five-year-old-transgender-boy-share-son-s-transition-story-world-order-inspire-people-embrace-child-s-true-identity.html

Ok here is one.

At five years old they can barely tie their own shoes. They can't cross a busy street alone. And we think they have the knowledge to make this sort of massive life-altering decision?

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Dude. Remember I asked for a source to where parents forced a gender switch on a child with, in your words, "zero signs of dysphoria".

You have now provided 2 stories where 'It was his choice', to quote the headline of your second link. Come on.

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One infamous "involuntary" conversion was the result of a child having his ***** cut off by a rabbi during a circumcision ceremony. The parents were advised by a surgeon to cut off the entire ***** and raise the child as a girl--never to say a word about him being born a boy. It didn't work. As he grew older, he felt male. He ultimately committed suicide.

Another was an East German woman who took so many 'vitamins" given her by her trainers--which were actually hormones--that she ended up identifying as male. The coaches did not tell the girl or her parents what they were giving her, and in East Germany at that time, she essentially belonged to the government.

Parents who try to change the gender of a child are, IMO, crazy and also potentially abusive.

Parents who have a child who says, I have a girl's genetalia but I feel like a boy or vice versa and try to help that child navigate adolescence without committing suicide and keep loving that child unconditionally are trying to be good parents. They deserve help and support, not judgment.

Ay'lonit
Saris
Tumtum
Androgynos

More than 800 children given puberty block drug on NHS to aid future sex change operation

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/834832/sex-change-chlldren-800-nhs-drugs-london-leeds-hormone-blockers-gender