I guess Ukraine does hold the cards. Vance is an idiot

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Tempus Edax Rerum
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Wall Street Journal


U.S. and Ukrainian Forces Went Head-to-Head in an Exercise. Ukraine's Drones Won.
Battlefield drill shows Pentagon hasn't fully absorbed lessons of Russia's war

U.S. Army troops faced off against Ukrainian drone operators at a military exercise in Germany earlier this year. It didn't go well for the Americans.

During the exercise, called Combined Resolve, Ukrainian drone units easily spotted and defeated U.S. troops and armored vehicles on rotation from Fort Hood in Texas, according to people familiar with the events.

The exercise, coupled with U.S. casualties in Iran, shows American vulnerabilities to dronesyears after the U.S. made uncrewed systems an essential part of warfare. America pioneered using long-range drones in war. The Pentagon has recently spent billions acquiring new drone and counterdrone technology and formed special units to operate it.

Still, in the Middle East this year, the U.S. has struggled to defend against Iran's long-range drones, which have killed and injured soldiers and destroyed aircraft.

The drubbing in Germany conveyed lessons from Ukraine focused on short-range battlefield drones. The exercise, held in April and May, tested visiting troops' ability to operate and defend against the proliferation of smaller, front-line drones that have dominated the conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

Exercises like Combined Resolve are run precisely so that forces can experience realistic combat conditions. Army leaders in Europe over recent years have taken advantage of having Ukrainian forces on hand to participate and impart their hard-won skills to U.S. and allied troops in practice, on simulated battlefields. The expectation is that failures are educational. British and Swedish exercises have also resulted in easy Ukrainian triumphs.

"You can't get training like this in the United States," said Air Force General Alexus Grynkewich, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's top military leader. He said that after NATO forces exercise against Ukrainian forces, "The change is remarkable."

Eliot Cohen, a scholar at the Center for Strategic and International Studies think tank, said that recent battlefield experience shows how drones of all kinds are essential to modern war.

"It is vital that the U.S. military master that, and thus far, unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case," he said.

A Ukrainian servicemember operating a drone near the front-line in eastern Ukraine.
A Ukrainian servicemember operating a drone near the front-line in eastern Ukraine. Iryna Rybakova/Ukraine's 93rd Mechanized Brigade/AP
Combined Resolve is a semiannual exercise focused on large-scale ground combat operations, in which rotating U.S. forces use armored divisions supported by ground troops, helicopters, drones and other military assets.

Around 3,500 U.S. personnel, primarily from the 3rd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, took part in the exercise. Their task was to attack a position defended by the Army training-ground's opposition force, or OPFOR, who were reinforced by Ukrainian troops from the 412th Regiment of Unmanned Systems Forces, or Nemesis, people familiar with the matter said.

The rotating troops were equipped with standard electronic-warfare and counterdrone systems, according to an Army official. New Mobile Brigade Combat Teams, equipped with the latest gear and tactics, have fared much better in exercises, the Army official said.

The Ukrainian drone operators eliminated a U.S. armored brigade in the exercise, according to U.S. officials briefed on the exercise and one participant.

The exercising troops sent into battle heavy armored vehicles that threw up dust and were easy for Ukrainian reconnaissance drones to spot, according to the participant. Those drones were followed by drones dropping explosives and first-person-view drones, which smash into targets in combat, this person said.

Live ammunition is rarely used in such exercises. Drones typically hover above a vehicle or move close enough to it for an observer to award them a "kill."

Ukrainian drones were doing this so quickly with U.S. vehicles that they had to be sent back into the exercises as new units, or "re-spawned," to keep the exercise going, a U.S. official briefed on the drill said.

The U.S. reran the training scenario over the two-week engagement. The rotating forces improved their performance, as they became more adept at dispersing and concealing themselves and using electronic warfare, said the Army official. The Ukrainians also switched sides midway through the exercises and helped them use drone technology offensively, which they did effectively, the official said.

Ukrainian troops have become expert in drone warfare over nearly 4 years of fighting Russia, with operators and their support troops now skilled at continually repairing and adapting drones. Moscow's forces have also gained invaluable skills. American drone operators lack experience fixing and arming drones under fire, said the person present at the exercise.

In Ukraine, so many tanks and other armor are destroyed in battle that large parts of the country's vast front line is almost free of armor.

Some U.S. military officers, though, argue that drones are particularly deadly in this war because it has reached a stalemate with little battlefield movement. In a war of maneuver, the tank and other armor would come back into its own, they say.

But Ukrainian military thinkers such as former chief commander Valeriy Zaluzhniy argue that drone technology has made traditional maneuver warfare unfeasible, for now, explaining the largely static front line in Ukraine's east. Both Russia and Ukraine are searching for the next breakthroughs in technology and tactics to restore movement to the battlefield.

The exercise showed that the U.S. may struggle to protect that armor as it moves.

This wasn't the first time the U.S. has come across Ukrainian drone proficiency. In 2023, a U.S. infantry officer helping train Ukrainian troops realized the U.S. needed to learn from them about drone warfare and designed a training program that other Army units later followed, according to a U.S. official.

Despite a sometimes *****ly relationship with Kyiv, President Trump's administration has been reaching out to Ukraine. The U.S. is currently testing Ukrainian drones to buy and has used counterdrone systems tested in that war to help defend its forces in Iran.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth in May told senators he has increased the number of U.S. personnel being sent to Ukraine to study drone warfare.

The U.S. Army isn't the first to be found wanting by Ukrainian drones.

In May of last year, Ukrainian drone operators easily defeated the British, Estonian and other forces from NATO, including a U.S. contingent, in an exercise in the Baltic region, according to a person familiar with the matter.

This spring, Swedish forces led an exercise with NATO allies in which Ukrainian drone teams outperformed them too, Swedish officials told local media.

Danielsjackson114
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Only liberal idiots can cheerlead for foreign nations over the US
Tempus Edax Rerum
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Danielsjackson114 said:

Only liberal idiots can cheerlead for foreign nations over the US


Uh you do realize Ukraine is an ally. Oh yeah right, you're stupid af.
HuMcK
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Tempus Edax Rerum said:

Danielsjackson114 said:

Only liberal idiots can cheerlead for foreign nations over the US


Uh you do realize Ukraine is an ally. Oh yeah right, you're stupid af.

To the US they are, to Trump they are not.
Sam Lowry
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Tempus Edax Rerum said:


U.S. and Ukrainian Forces Went Head-to-Head in an Exercise. Ukraine's Drones Won.
Battlefield drill shows Pentagon hasn't fully absorbed lessons of Russia's war

U.S. Army troops faced off against Ukrainian drone operators at a military exercise in Germany earlier this year. It didn't go well for the Americans.

During the exercise, called Combined Resolve, Ukrainian drone units easily spotted and defeated U.S. troops and armored vehicles on rotation from Fort Hood in Texas, according to people familiar with the events.

The exercise, coupled with U.S. casualties in Iran, shows American vulnerabilities to dronesyears after the U.S. made uncrewed systems an essential part of warfare. America pioneered using long-range drones in war. The Pentagon has recently spent billions acquiring new drone and counterdrone technology and formed special units to operate it.

Still, in the Middle East this year, the U.S. has struggled to defend against Iran's long-range drones, which have killed and injured soldiers and destroyed aircraft.

The drubbing in Germany conveyed lessons from Ukraine focused on short-range battlefield drones. The exercise, held in April and May, tested visiting troops' ability to operate and defend against the proliferation of smaller, front-line drones that have dominated the conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

Exercises like Combined Resolve are run precisely so that forces can experience realistic combat conditions. Army leaders in Europe over recent years have taken advantage of having Ukrainian forces on hand to participate and impart their hard-won skills to U.S. and allied troops in practice, on simulated battlefields. The expectation is that failures are educational. British and Swedish exercises have also resulted in easy Ukrainian triumphs.

"You can't get training like this in the United States," said Air Force General Alexus Grynkewich, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's top military leader. He said that after NATO forces exercise against Ukrainian forces, "The change is remarkable."

Eliot Cohen, a scholar at the Center for Strategic and International Studies think tank, said that recent battlefield experience shows how drones of all kinds are essential to modern war.

"It is vital that the U.S. military master that, and thus far, unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case," he said.

A Ukrainian servicemember operating a drone near the front-line in eastern Ukraine.
A Ukrainian servicemember operating a drone near the front-line in eastern Ukraine. Iryna Rybakova/Ukraine's 93rd Mechanized Brigade/AP
Combined Resolve is a semiannual exercise focused on large-scale ground combat operations, in which rotating U.S. forces use armored divisions supported by ground troops, helicopters, drones and other military assets.

Around 3,500 U.S. personnel, primarily from the 3rd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, took part in the exercise. Their task was to attack a position defended by the Army training-ground's opposition force, or OPFOR, who were reinforced by Ukrainian troops from the 412th Regiment of Unmanned Systems Forces, or Nemesis, people familiar with the matter said.

The rotating troops were equipped with standard electronic-warfare and counterdrone systems, according to an Army official. New Mobile Brigade Combat Teams, equipped with the latest gear and tactics, have fared much better in exercises, the Army official said.

The Ukrainian drone operators eliminated a U.S. armored brigade in the exercise, according to U.S. officials briefed on the exercise and one participant.

The exercising troops sent into battle heavy armored vehicles that threw up dust and were easy for Ukrainian reconnaissance drones to spot, according to the participant. Those drones were followed by drones dropping explosives and first-person-view drones, which smash into targets in combat, this person said.

Live ammunition is rarely used in such exercises. Drones typically hover above a vehicle or move close enough to it for an observer to award them a "kill."

Ukrainian drones were doing this so quickly with U.S. vehicles that they had to be sent back into the exercises as new units, or "re-spawned," to keep the exercise going, a U.S. official briefed on the drill said.

The U.S. reran the training scenario over the two-week engagement. The rotating forces improved their performance, as they became more adept at dispersing and concealing themselves and using electronic warfare, said the Army official. The Ukrainians also switched sides midway through the exercises and helped them use drone technology offensively, which they did effectively, the official said.

Ukrainian troops have become expert in drone warfare over nearly 4 years of fighting Russia, with operators and their support troops now skilled at continually repairing and adapting drones. Moscow's forces have also gained invaluable skills. American drone operators lack experience fixing and arming drones under fire, said the person present at the exercise.

In Ukraine, so many tanks and other armor are destroyed in battle that large parts of the country's vast front line is almost free of armor.

Some U.S. military officers, though, argue that drones are particularly deadly in this war because it has reached a stalemate with little battlefield movement. In a war of maneuver, the tank and other armor would come back into its own, they say.

But Ukrainian military thinkers such as former chief commander Valeriy Zaluzhniy argue that drone technology has made traditional maneuver warfare unfeasible, for now, explaining the largely static front line in Ukraine's east. Both Russia and Ukraine are searching for the next breakthroughs in technology and tactics to restore movement to the battlefield.

The exercise showed that the U.S. may struggle to protect that armor as it moves.

This wasn't the first time the U.S. has come across Ukrainian drone proficiency. In 2023, a U.S. infantry officer helping train Ukrainian troops realized the U.S. needed to learn from them about drone warfare and designed a training program that other Army units later followed, according to a U.S. official.

Despite a sometimes *****ly relationship with Kyiv, President Trump's administration has been reaching out to Ukraine. The U.S. is currently testing Ukrainian drones to buy and has used counterdrone systems tested in that war to help defend its forces in Iran.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth in May told senators he has increased the number of U.S. personnel being sent to Ukraine to study drone warfare.

The U.S. Army isn't the first to be found wanting by Ukrainian drones.

In May of last year, Ukrainian drone operators easily defeated the British, Estonian and other forces from NATO, including a U.S. contingent, in an exercise in the Baltic region, according to a person familiar with the matter.

This spring, Swedish forces led an exercise with NATO allies in which Ukrainian drone teams outperformed them too, Swedish officials told local media.



EatMoreSalmon
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Glad US forces are having such exercises with experienced troops. Would be dumb to just assume we could defeat new tactics. See France in the 1930s.
J.R.
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yes, he's a punk. That was one of the most embarrassing moments of Trump 2.0. Yeah, bearded wonder, Ukraine has NO cards. What a fool.
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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Don't worry! Trump is going to put new tariffs on any imported drones!

BRILLIANT!!!! 5D chess.
Call it a tax, the people are outraged! Call it a tariff, the people get out their checkbooks and wave their American flags!!!
Harrison Bergeron
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Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.
BellCountyBear
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Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?
J.R.
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BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

same with Izzy. Not only do we pay for them, they effed Trump/us and he was too stupid to listen to his experts, CIA ect and here we are. Cut those Mfers off now. I'd much rather my tax dollars supporting Ukraine to win, which Piggy won't do cuz he's Putin's puppet.
Realitybites
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EatMoreSalmon said:

Glad US forces are having such exercises with experienced troops. Would be dumb to just assume we could defeat new tactics. See France in the 1930s.


This. Our military, its command, its war colleges, and its procurement systems have become calcified and expensive. Eisenhower warned us about this.
sombear
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Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

Trump hasn't given Ukraine one dollar. Aid was already cut, Good slogan though.
sombear
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BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.
canoso
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Tempus Edax Rerum said:


U.S. and Ukrainian Forces Went Head-to-Head in an Exercise. Ukraine's Drones Won.
Battlefield drill shows Pentagon hasn't fully absorbed lessons of Russia's war

U.S. Army troops faced off against Ukrainian drone operators at a military exercise in Germany earlier this year. It didn't go well for the Americans.

During the exercise, called Combined Resolve, Ukrainian drone units easily spotted and defeated U.S. troops and armored vehicles on rotation from Fort Hood in Texas, according to people familiar with the events.

The exercise, coupled with U.S. casualties in Iran, shows American vulnerabilities to dronesyears after the U.S. made uncrewed systems an essential part of warfare. America pioneered using long-range drones in war. The Pentagon has recently spent billions acquiring new drone and counterdrone technology and formed special units to operate it.

Still, in the Middle East this year, the U.S. has struggled to defend against Iran's long-range drones, which have killed and injured soldiers and destroyed aircraft.

The drubbing in Germany conveyed lessons from Ukraine focused on short-range battlefield drones. The exercise, held in April and May, tested visiting troops' ability to operate and defend against the proliferation of smaller, front-line drones that have dominated the conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

Exercises like Combined Resolve are run precisely so that forces can experience realistic combat conditions. Army leaders in Europe over recent years have taken advantage of having Ukrainian forces on hand to participate and impart their hard-won skills to U.S. and allied troops in practice, on simulated battlefields. The expectation is that failures are educational. British and Swedish exercises have also resulted in easy Ukrainian triumphs.

"You can't get training like this in the United States," said Air Force General Alexus Grynkewich, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's top military leader. He said that after NATO forces exercise against Ukrainian forces, "The change is remarkable."

Eliot Cohen, a scholar at the Center for Strategic and International Studies think tank, said that recent battlefield experience shows how drones of all kinds are essential to modern war.

"It is vital that the U.S. military master that, and thus far, unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case," he said.

A Ukrainian servicemember operating a drone near the front-line in eastern Ukraine.
A Ukrainian servicemember operating a drone near the front-line in eastern Ukraine. Iryna Rybakova/Ukraine's 93rd Mechanized Brigade/AP
Combined Resolve is a semiannual exercise focused on large-scale ground combat operations, in which rotating U.S. forces use armored divisions supported by ground troops, helicopters, drones and other military assets.

Around 3,500 U.S. personnel, primarily from the 3rd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, took part in the exercise. Their task was to attack a position defended by the Army training-ground's opposition force, or OPFOR, who were reinforced by Ukrainian troops from the 412th Regiment of Unmanned Systems Forces, or Nemesis, people familiar with the matter said.

The rotating troops were equipped with standard electronic-warfare and counterdrone systems, according to an Army official. New Mobile Brigade Combat Teams, equipped with the latest gear and tactics, have fared much better in exercises, the Army official said.

The Ukrainian drone operators eliminated a U.S. armored brigade in the exercise, according to U.S. officials briefed on the exercise and one participant.

The exercising troops sent into battle heavy armored vehicles that threw up dust and were easy for Ukrainian reconnaissance drones to spot, according to the participant. Those drones were followed by drones dropping explosives and first-person-view drones, which smash into targets in combat, this person said.

Live ammunition is rarely used in such exercises. Drones typically hover above a vehicle or move close enough to it for an observer to award them a "kill."

Ukrainian drones were doing this so quickly with U.S. vehicles that they had to be sent back into the exercises as new units, or "re-spawned," to keep the exercise going, a U.S. official briefed on the drill said.

The U.S. reran the training scenario over the two-week engagement. The rotating forces improved their performance, as they became more adept at dispersing and concealing themselves and using electronic warfare, said the Army official. The Ukrainians also switched sides midway through the exercises and helped them use drone technology offensively, which they did effectively, the official said.

Ukrainian troops have become expert in drone warfare over nearly 4 years of fighting Russia, with operators and their support troops now skilled at continually repairing and adapting drones. Moscow's forces have also gained invaluable skills. American drone operators lack experience fixing and arming drones under fire, said the person present at the exercise.

In Ukraine, so many tanks and other armor are destroyed in battle that large parts of the country's vast front line is almost free of armor.

Some U.S. military officers, though, argue that drones are particularly deadly in this war because it has reached a stalemate with little battlefield movement. In a war of maneuver, the tank and other armor would come back into its own, they say.

But Ukrainian military thinkers such as former chief commander Valeriy Zaluzhniy argue that drone technology has made traditional maneuver warfare unfeasible, for now, explaining the largely static front line in Ukraine's east. Both Russia and Ukraine are searching for the next breakthroughs in technology and tactics to restore movement to the battlefield.

The exercise showed that the U.S. may struggle to protect that armor as it moves.

This wasn't the first time the U.S. has come across Ukrainian drone proficiency. In 2023, a U.S. infantry officer helping train Ukrainian troops realized the U.S. needed to learn from them about drone warfare and designed a training program that other Army units later followed, according to a U.S. official.

Despite a sometimes *****ly relationship with Kyiv, President Trump's administration has been reaching out to Ukraine. The U.S. is currently testing Ukrainian drones to buy and has used counterdrone systems tested in that war to help defend its forces in Iran.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth in May told senators he has increased the number of U.S. personnel being sent to Ukraine to study drone warfare.

The U.S. Army isn't the first to be found wanting by Ukrainian drones.

In May of last year, Ukrainian drone operators easily defeated the British, Estonian and other forces from NATO, including a U.S. contingent, in an exercise in the Baltic region, according to a person familiar with the matter.

This spring, Swedish forces led an exercise with NATO allies in which Ukrainian drone teams outperformed them too, Swedish officials told local media.



Why do neither dateline nor original publisher of this story appear in it? Please provide specifics as to this information. Thank you in advance.
The_barBEARian
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sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?
sombear
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The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.
Sam Lowry
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sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.
canoso
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Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?
sombear
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Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Oh yes . . . all those Ukrainian Nazis!!!!!
Sam Lowry
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canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?
We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.
canoso
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Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?

We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

Lacks documentation. Please provide it, including names. Thanks in advance. Also, give us the average age of said former Waffen-SS troops and why we're giving them medals at that age.
Sam Lowry
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canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?

We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

Lacks documentation. Please provide it, including names. Thanks in advance. Also, give us the average age of said former Waffen-SS troops and why we're giving them medals at that age.

https://www.google.com
The_barBEARian
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Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?

We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

If we are giving medals and having ceremonies for IDF soldiers, why should Nazi soldiers be excluded?
canoso
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Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?

We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

Lacks documentation. Please provide it, including names. Thanks in advance. Also, give us the average age of said former Waffen-SS troops and why we're giving them medals at that age.

https://www.google.com

You made the statement. You do the lifting.......for once.
EatMoreSalmon
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Kind of like not helping Finland in WW2 when the Soviet Union invaded them. Drove them to the dark side.
Tempus Edax Rerum
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canoso said:

Tempus Edax Rerum said:


U.S. and Ukrainian Forces Went Head-to-Head in an Exercise. Ukraine's Drones Won.
Battlefield drill shows Pentagon hasn't fully absorbed lessons of Russia's war

U.S. Army troops faced off against Ukrainian drone operators at a military exercise in Germany earlier this year. It didn't go well for the Americans.

During the exercise, called Combined Resolve, Ukrainian drone units easily spotted and defeated U.S. troops and armored vehicles on rotation from Fort Hood in Texas, according to people familiar with the events.

The exercise, coupled with U.S. casualties in Iran, shows American vulnerabilities to dronesyears after the U.S. made uncrewed systems an essential part of warfare. America pioneered using long-range drones in war. The Pentagon has recently spent billions acquiring new drone and counterdrone technology and formed special units to operate it.

Still, in the Middle East this year, the U.S. has struggled to defend against Iran's long-range drones, which have killed and injured soldiers and destroyed aircraft.

The drubbing in Germany conveyed lessons from Ukraine focused on short-range battlefield drones. The exercise, held in April and May, tested visiting troops' ability to operate and defend against the proliferation of smaller, front-line drones that have dominated the conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

Exercises like Combined Resolve are run precisely so that forces can experience realistic combat conditions. Army leaders in Europe over recent years have taken advantage of having Ukrainian forces on hand to participate and impart their hard-won skills to U.S. and allied troops in practice, on simulated battlefields. The expectation is that failures are educational. British and Swedish exercises have also resulted in easy Ukrainian triumphs.

"You can't get training like this in the United States," said Air Force General Alexus Grynkewich, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's top military leader. He said that after NATO forces exercise against Ukrainian forces, "The change is remarkable."

Eliot Cohen, a scholar at the Center for Strategic and International Studies think tank, said that recent battlefield experience shows how drones of all kinds are essential to modern war.

"It is vital that the U.S. military master that, and thus far, unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case," he said.

A Ukrainian servicemember operating a drone near the front-line in eastern Ukraine.
A Ukrainian servicemember operating a drone near the front-line in eastern Ukraine. Iryna Rybakova/Ukraine's 93rd Mechanized Brigade/AP
Combined Resolve is a semiannual exercise focused on large-scale ground combat operations, in which rotating U.S. forces use armored divisions supported by ground troops, helicopters, drones and other military assets.

Around 3,500 U.S. personnel, primarily from the 3rd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, took part in the exercise. Their task was to attack a position defended by the Army training-ground's opposition force, or OPFOR, who were reinforced by Ukrainian troops from the 412th Regiment of Unmanned Systems Forces, or Nemesis, people familiar with the matter said.

The rotating troops were equipped with standard electronic-warfare and counterdrone systems, according to an Army official. New Mobile Brigade Combat Teams, equipped with the latest gear and tactics, have fared much better in exercises, the Army official said.

The Ukrainian drone operators eliminated a U.S. armored brigade in the exercise, according to U.S. officials briefed on the exercise and one participant.

The exercising troops sent into battle heavy armored vehicles that threw up dust and were easy for Ukrainian reconnaissance drones to spot, according to the participant. Those drones were followed by drones dropping explosives and first-person-view drones, which smash into targets in combat, this person said.

Live ammunition is rarely used in such exercises. Drones typically hover above a vehicle or move close enough to it for an observer to award them a "kill."

Ukrainian drones were doing this so quickly with U.S. vehicles that they had to be sent back into the exercises as new units, or "re-spawned," to keep the exercise going, a U.S. official briefed on the drill said.

The U.S. reran the training scenario over the two-week engagement. The rotating forces improved their performance, as they became more adept at dispersing and concealing themselves and using electronic warfare, said the Army official. The Ukrainians also switched sides midway through the exercises and helped them use drone technology offensively, which they did effectively, the official said.

Ukrainian troops have become expert in drone warfare over nearly 4 years of fighting Russia, with operators and their support troops now skilled at continually repairing and adapting drones. Moscow's forces have also gained invaluable skills. American drone operators lack experience fixing and arming drones under fire, said the person present at the exercise.

In Ukraine, so many tanks and other armor are destroyed in battle that large parts of the country's vast front line is almost free of armor.

Some U.S. military officers, though, argue that drones are particularly deadly in this war because it has reached a stalemate with little battlefield movement. In a war of maneuver, the tank and other armor would come back into its own, they say.

But Ukrainian military thinkers such as former chief commander Valeriy Zaluzhniy argue that drone technology has made traditional maneuver warfare unfeasible, for now, explaining the largely static front line in Ukraine's east. Both Russia and Ukraine are searching for the next breakthroughs in technology and tactics to restore movement to the battlefield.

The exercise showed that the U.S. may struggle to protect that armor as it moves.

This wasn't the first time the U.S. has come across Ukrainian drone proficiency. In 2023, a U.S. infantry officer helping train Ukrainian troops realized the U.S. needed to learn from them about drone warfare and designed a training program that other Army units later followed, according to a U.S. official.

Despite a sometimes *****ly relationship with Kyiv, President Trump's administration has been reaching out to Ukraine. The U.S. is currently testing Ukrainian drones to buy and has used counterdrone systems tested in that war to help defend its forces in Iran.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth in May told senators he has increased the number of U.S. personnel being sent to Ukraine to study drone warfare.

The U.S. Army isn't the first to be found wanting by Ukrainian drones.

In May of last year, Ukrainian drone operators easily defeated the British, Estonian and other forces from NATO, including a U.S. contingent, in an exercise in the Baltic region, according to a person familiar with the matter.

This spring, Swedish forces led an exercise with NATO allies in which Ukrainian drone teams outperformed them too, Swedish officials told local media.



Why do neither dateline nor original publisher of this story appear in it? Please provide specifics as to this information. Thank you in advance.

WSJ, a couple days ago.
Harrison Bergeron
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canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?

We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

Lacks documentation. Please provide it, including names. Thanks in advance. Also, give us the average age of said former Waffen-SS troops and why we're giving them medals at that age.

https://www.google.com

You made the statement. You do the lifting.......for once.

Hamas Harry still pretending "genocide" leads to population increases.
sombear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?

We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

Lacks documentation. Please provide it, including names. Thanks in advance. Also, give us the average age of said former Waffen-SS troops and why we're giving them medals at that age.

https://www.google.com

I couldn't find anything. I tried.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?

We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

Lacks documentation. Please provide it, including names. Thanks in advance. Also, give us the average age of said former Waffen-SS troops and why we're giving them medals at that age.

https://www.google.com

I couldn't find anything. I tried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslav_Hunka_scandal
sombear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?

We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

Lacks documentation. Please provide it, including names. Thanks in advance. Also, give us the average age of said former Waffen-SS troops and why we're giving them medals at that age.

https://www.google.com

I couldn't find anything. I tried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslav_Hunka_scandal


- Canada
- No medal
- Virtually nobody there knew his background and all disavowed following
- As I'm sure you know given your knowledge of the region, Ukrainians in that area who fought for Germany did so because Russia invaded and occupied them first. Their goal was to get rid of the Russians who terrorized them.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?

We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

Lacks documentation. Please provide it, including names. Thanks in advance. Also, give us the average age of said former Waffen-SS troops and why we're giving them medals at that age.

https://www.google.com

I couldn't find anything. I tried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslav_Hunka_scandal


- Canada
- No medal
- Virtually nobody there knew his background and all disavowed following
- As I'm sure you know given your knowledge of the region, Ukrainians in that area who fought for Germany did so because Russia invaded and occupied them first. Their goal was to get rid of the Russians who terrorized them.

Their goal was to get rid of anyone they considered inferior, including Russians, Poles, and over a million Jews. While he may have been disavowed after public shaming, he represents exactly the kind of racist nationalism that we've supported in Ukraine ever since the end of the war.
sombear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

canoso said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

The_barBEARian said:

sombear said:

BellCountyBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Awesome. Let's stop giving billions to their corrupt oligarchy. It clearly does not need it. Cut off all aid now.

This. If they're so badass, why do they need our help?

Because they were invaded by a world power 4 times its size and a military 10X bigger that is supported by China, Iran, and North Korea.

And, yes, Ukrainians have proven to be MF-ing bad asses.

If you could only choose one expensive, frivolous counter-productive foreign war to destroy the US economy over... which would you choose - Ukraine War or Iran War?

I obviously disagree with the lead up, but I opposed the Iran war and support helping Ukraine. It is not expensive nor counterproductive. It's a tiny fraction of 1% of our spending, and we're helping the greatest freedom fighters since WW2.

We are literally helping the people we fought against in WW2.

Good thing we never helped post-war Germany or Japan, isn't it?

We helped purge Germany of the Nazi affliction. Now we're giving medals to former Waffen-SS troops. As the son of a WW2 vet, it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

Lacks documentation. Please provide it, including names. Thanks in advance. Also, give us the average age of said former Waffen-SS troops and why we're giving them medals at that age.

https://www.google.com

I couldn't find anything. I tried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslav_Hunka_scandal


- Canada
- No medal
- Virtually nobody there knew his background and all disavowed following
- As I'm sure you know given your knowledge of the region, Ukrainians in that area who fought for Germany did so because Russia invaded and occupied them first. Their goal was to get rid of the Russians who terrorized them.

Their goal was to get rid of anyone they considered inferior, including Russians, Poles, and over a million Jews. While he may have been disavowed after public shaming, he represents exactly the kind of racist nationalism that we've supported in Ukraine ever since the end of the war.

You're way further adrift in Putin land than I thought . . . .

Racist nationalism in Ukraine?

Do you somehow deny Russia invaded Ukraine and terrorized Ukrainians before the Germans?

And unlike Russia, Ukraine has never stated that Russia and Russians don't really exist, Ukraine has never invaded Russia or threatened to. Ukraine has not stolen Russian children. Ukraine is not murdering Russian civilians. Ukraine has not tried to change Russian textbooks. Ukraine has not allied with North Korea, Iran, and China. Ukraine does not harass or kill Evangelicals and Catholics. Ukraine does not control its Orthodox church and the church is not led by spies. And on and on and on.
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