BaylorFTW said:

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NATO started in 1949. You don't think Western Civilization had already delivered many great things to the world?

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Canada2017 said:

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Industrial Revolution in the West provided superior weapon technology and means of supply .

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FormerFlash said:

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Western civilization has achieved so much due to the freedom bestowed upon it's citizens. The Intercollegiate Studies Institute defines the 6 founding principles of a free society as follows:

Limited Government
The rightful functions of government are to guarantee individual liberty, private property, internal order, the provision of national defense, and the administration of justice. When the state exceeds its proper role, it accumulates power and becomes a threat to personal liberty.

Individual Liberty
Individuals possess rights to life, liberty, property, and freedom from the restrictions of arbitrary force. They exercise these rights through the use of their natural free will.

Personal Responsibility
Personal responsibility is central to the idea of a free society and to the concept of self-government. Because each individual is morally responsible for his acts, citizens in a free society have an obligation to educate themselves to further the common good through the political process: this is the proper and necessary function of self-government.

The Rule of Law
Laws, not men, rule a free society. The Constitution of the United States, with its division of powers, is the best arrangement yet devised for empowering government while preventing the concentration of power.

Free-Market Economy
Allocating resources by the free play of supply and demand is the single economic system compatible with the requirements of a free society, and also the most productive and efficient supplier of human needs.

Traditional Values
The values, customs, conventions, and norms of the Judeo-Christian tradition inform and guide a free society. Without such ordinances, society induces its decay by embracing a relativism that rejects an objective moral order.

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Sam Lowry said:

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Great because of Christianity, declined because of the Enlightenment, will need a miracle to survive post-modernity.

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bularry said:

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FormerFlash said:

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Western civilization has achieved so much due to the freedom bestowed upon it's citizens. The Intercollegiate Studies Institute defines the 6 founding principles of a free society as follows:

Limited Government
The rightful functions of government are to guarantee individual liberty, private property, internal order, the provision of national defense, and the administration of justice. When the state exceeds its proper role, it accumulates power and becomes a threat to personal liberty.

Individual Liberty
Individuals possess rights to life, liberty, property, and freedom from the restrictions of arbitrary force. They exercise these rights through the use of their natural free will.

Personal Responsibility
Personal responsibility is central to the idea of a free society and to the concept of self-government. Because each individual is morally responsible for his acts, citizens in a free society have an obligation to educate themselves to further the common good through the political process: this is the proper and necessary function of self-government.

The Rule of Law
Laws, not men, rule a free society. The Constitution of the United States, with its division of powers, is the best arrangement yet devised for empowering government while preventing the concentration of power.

Free-Market Economy
Allocating resources by the free play of supply and demand is the single economic system compatible with the requirements of a free society, and also the most productive and efficient supplier of human needs.

Traditional Values
The values, customs, conventions, and norms of the Judeo-Christian tradition inform and guide a free society. Without such ordinances, society induces its decay by embracing a relativism that rejects an objective moral order.

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I don't think any of those really apply before the current century. When Europe was "colonizing" and exploring the world, those things were all vastly different than your position indicates.

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bularry said:

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1. DESTRUCTION OF TRIBES BY ROMANS: The Roman empire effectively wiped out tribes and tribalism in Europe. The destruction of this backward cultural organizational structure allowed for the establishment of a broader national identity to take shape and reduced the number of low grade constant internecine wars in a given geographical area, allowing for trade and its concomitant benefits to develop.


Didn't a bunch of "tribes" more or less sack Rome? Central and Eastern Europe and North Africa were all extremely fractured well after the Roman Empire. I do agree the establishment of national identity was an important factor but was the west really ahead of Japan or China in this regard? or even Persia?

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Canada2017 said:

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GolemIII said:

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BaylorFTW said:

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1. What are the reasons that Western Civilization dwarfed the achievements of other cultures?
2. Are there genetic reasons for this that made it possible? For example, what genetic traits allowed the West to flourish? High IQ, higher threshold of deferred gratification, etc.
3. How much do you attribute things to environmental factors like in Guns, Germs and Steel.
4. Was there divine intervention that made it possible or luck as some critics would have it?
5. What other factors played a role?

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There are quite a few reasons. Below are a few of my thoughts on it.

1. DESTRUCTION OF TRIBES BY ROMANS: The Roman empire effectively wiped out tribes and tribalism in Europe. The destruction of this backward cultural organizational structure allowed for the establishment of a broader national identity to take shape and reduced the number of low grade constant internecine wars in a given geographical area, allowing for trade and its concomitant benefits to develop.

2. ADVANCED FARMING: The Guns Germs and Steel model has some merit too (when he's not busy trying to equivocate and claim he actually believes New Guineans are smarter than other races) mostly with regard to his discussion on the development of farming. Where there was a strong and successful farming culture in arable land, there was a huge jump in civilization. That lead to specialization, which lead to academic, technological and military advancement. Europeans did an excellent job in this respect.

3. CHRISTIANITY: Like it or not, Christianity is and has always been the most civilizing of the world religions, in the long term. It didn't jump straight to complete egalitarianism, but throughout history, it was one of the few that treated women with some semblance of respect and allowed them to contribute to society. It was the basis for elimination of slavery (despite some proof texting used to justify same) and it formed the basis for a shared culture across the whole of Europe which was not based on conquest of a particular state. For hundreds of years, it permeated every aspect of life for the whole of the continent, from family to government to the arts to architecture, and was something with an underlying peaceful and loving message virtually everyone could identify witheven if they didn't always live up to it, This shared cultural umbrella allowed for peaceful interactions and trade where possible and provided limitations on violence and possibilities for mediation where peace was not present. Christianity and the monastic tradition arguably formed the basis for the university system we still enjoy and even helped codify the scientific method. Christianity strengthened families and condemned divorce. Christianity and Christian philosophers reshaped legal systems and effectively created the idea of individual rights based on natural law. Christianity (and Judaism) were instrumental in creating western civilization. It's fair to say that without that contribution, there would not be a western civilization.

4. PROTESTANT REFORMATION/INDIVIDUALISM: It's fair to say that the protestant reformation was sparked in some part and certainly carried forward by the idea of individualism. The notion that man was beholden to God alone and not to Church authorities was effectively the beginning of the enlightenment and the notion of individual liberty and the sovereignty of the individual. That notion of individualism, coupled with the already established cultural and scientific advances of Christianity would take us into the world in which we live today. It sparked adventure, investment, self-sacrifice, discovery and even charity in a way that just didn't exist outside of western civilization.

5. GENETICS: Based on current IQ tests, it would appear that Asians have (and probably have had) the highest average IQs. But they didn't advance in the same way Western Europe did. So, while the average IQ could have played a role, it's likely not a dominant role except insofar as the Geniuses within Europe were likely (due to cultural factors already discussed) given free rein in a way other cultures wouldn't allow and often funded by rich patrons and Church patronage that didn't have precise analogs in other cultures.

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Thoughtful and detailed response .

Well done.

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GolemIII said:

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bularry said:

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1. DESTRUCTION OF TRIBES BY ROMANS: The Roman empire effectively wiped out tribes and tribalism in Europe. The destruction of this backward cultural organizational structure allowed for the establishment of a broader national identity to take shape and reduced the number of low grade constant internecine wars in a given geographical area, allowing for trade and its concomitant benefits to develop.


Didn't a bunch of "tribes" more or less sack Rome? Central and Eastern Europe and North Africa were all extremely fractured well after the Roman Empire. I do agree the establishment of national identity was an important factor but was the west really ahead of Japan or China in this regard? or even Persia?

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They did. And then they started to copy it.

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FormerFlash said:

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bularry said:

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FormerFlash said:

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Western civilization has achieved so much due to the freedom bestowed upon it's citizens. The Intercollegiate Studies Institute defines the 6 founding principles of a free society as follows:

Limited Government
The rightful functions of government are to guarantee individual liberty, private property, internal order, the provision of national defense, and the administration of justice. When the state exceeds its proper role, it accumulates power and becomes a threat to personal liberty.

Individual Liberty
Individuals possess rights to life, liberty, property, and freedom from the restrictions of arbitrary force. They exercise these rights through the use of their natural free will.

Personal Responsibility
Personal responsibility is central to the idea of a free society and to the concept of self-government. Because each individual is morally responsible for his acts, citizens in a free society have an obligation to educate themselves to further the common good through the political process: this is the proper and necessary function of self-government.

The Rule of Law
Laws, not men, rule a free society. The Constitution of the United States, with its division of powers, is the best arrangement yet devised for empowering government while preventing the concentration of power.

Free-Market Economy
Allocating resources by the free play of supply and demand is the single economic system compatible with the requirements of a free society, and also the most productive and efficient supplier of human needs.

Traditional Values
The values, customs, conventions, and norms of the Judeo-Christian tradition inform and guide a free society. Without such ordinances, society induces its decay by embracing a relativism that rejects an objective moral order.

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I don't think any of those really apply before the current century. When Europe was "colonizing" and exploring the world, those things were all vastly different than your position indicates.

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The Judeo-Christian tradition has formed over a couple thousand years and provides the moral underpinning of western society unifying a diverse population and is directly tied to the principle of personal responsibility. It has also greatly impacted the creation of a governing rule of law built on those principles. Each of those 6 things began at different points in time and evolved over the course of many years of trial and error for implementation, but it is the unique combination of the six in one place at one time that allowed our country to become the most powerful country in the world with the greatest impact politically, militarily, economically, and culturally.

Interestingly enough, each of those 6 principles is under direct attack from liberal policies looking to degrade and in some cases even eliminate them.

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TexasScientist said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Great because of Christianity, declined because of the Enlightenment, will need a miracle to survive post-modernity.

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Interesting. Christianity, presumably to you means Catholicism led to greatness, yet you believe ideals of the Enlighenment such as religious tolerance, the scientific method, individual liberty, constitutional government, separation of church and state, questioning religious orthodoxy and the opposition of monarchs led to decline. Care to elaborate?

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CutTheTVoff said:

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Judeo Christian ethics

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tommie said:

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CutTheTVoff said:

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Judeo Christian ethics

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This existed when we were raping the women and the land.

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Redbrickbear said:

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Cacausians from Europe, Semitic Jews from the Middle East, and Eastern Asians (think Chinese/Japanese/Koreans) have the highest average IQs on earth.

One of those groups was bound to become a leading world power.

Christianity and private property rights also helped Europe.

And finally the small land size but large birth rate on the European continent helped drive innovation and push the population to expand abroad.

Asia is massive.......most empires in Asia have their hands full conquering and controlling it.

Europe is small enough to fit into the lower USA 48 states......expansion across the seas was the only option they had.

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GolemIII said:

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tommie said:

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CutTheTVoff said:

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Judeo Christian ethics

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This existed when we were raping the women and the land.

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"We" weren't doing anything, unless you're talking about yourself and some sort of 'soilsexual' fetish you have.

It's always funny to me that some people disingenuously try and claim a set of morals, values or ethics don't matter because not everyone may live up to their own standards all the time.

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GolemIII said:

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BaylorFTW said:

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1. What are the reasons that Western Civilization dwarfed the achievements of other cultures?
2. Are there genetic reasons for this that made it possible? For example, what genetic traits allowed the West to flourish? High IQ, higher threshold of deferred gratification, etc.
3. How much do you attribute things to environmental factors like in Guns, Germs and Steel.
4. Was there divine intervention that made it possible or luck as some critics would have it?
5. What other factors played a role?

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There are quite a few reasons. Below are a few of my thoughts on it.





3. CHRISTIANITY: Like it or not, Christianity is and has always been the most civilizing of the world religions, in the long term. It didn't jump straight to complete egalitarianism, but throughout history, it was one of the few that treated women with some semblance of respect and allowed them to contribute to society. It was the basis for elimination of slavery (despite some proof texting used to justify same) and it formed the basis for a shared culture across the whole of Europe which was not based on conquest of a particular state. For hundreds of years, it permeated every aspect of life for the whole of the continent, from family to government to the arts to architecture, and was something with an underlying peaceful and loving message virtually everyone could identify witheven if they didn't always live up to it, This shared cultural umbrella allowed for peaceful interactions and trade where possible and provided limitations on violence and possibilities for mediation where peace was not present. Christianity and the monastic tradition arguably formed the basis for the university system we still enjoy and even helped codify the scientific method. Christianity strengthened families and condemned divorce. Christianity and Christian philosophers reshaped legal systems and effectively created the idea of individual rights based on natural law. Christianity (and Judaism) were instrumental in creating western civilization. It's fair to say that without that contribution, there would not be a western civilization.

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tommie said:

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GolemIII said:

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tommie said:

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CutTheTVoff said:

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Judeo Christian ethics

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This existed when we were raping the women and the land.

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"We" weren't doing anything, unless you're talking about yourself and some sort of 'soilsexual' fetish you have.

It's always funny to me that some people disingenuously try and claim a set of morals, values or ethics don't matter because not everyone may live up to their own standards all the time.

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You can't claim all the good about western society and ignore the bad. The expansion of Europe was at the hand of Christians who raped both people and land.

Can you dispute that?

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Buddha Bear said:

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GolemIII said:

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BaylorFTW said:

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1. What are the reasons that Western Civilization dwarfed the achievements of other cultures?
2. Are there genetic reasons for this that made it possible? For example, what genetic traits allowed the West to flourish? High IQ, higher threshold of deferred gratification, etc.
3. How much do you attribute things to environmental factors like in Guns, Germs and Steel.
4. Was there divine intervention that made it possible or luck as some critics would have it?
5. What other factors played a role?

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There are quite a few reasons. Below are a few of my thoughts on it.





3. CHRISTIANITY: Like it or not, Christianity is and has always been the most civilizing of the world religions, in the long term. It didn't jump straight to complete egalitarianism, but throughout history, it was one of the few that treated women with some semblance of respect and allowed them to contribute to society. It was the basis for elimination of slavery (despite some proof texting used to justify same) and it formed the basis for a shared culture across the whole of Europe which was not based on conquest of a particular state. For hundreds of years, it permeated every aspect of life for the whole of the continent, from family to government to the arts to architecture, and was something with an underlying peaceful and loving message virtually everyone could identify witheven if they didn't always live up to it, This shared cultural umbrella allowed for peaceful interactions and trade where possible and provided limitations on violence and possibilities for mediation where peace was not present. Christianity and the monastic tradition arguably formed the basis for the university system we still enjoy and even helped codify the scientific method. Christianity strengthened families and condemned divorce. Christianity and Christian philosophers reshaped legal systems and effectively created the idea of individual rights based on natural law. Christianity (and Judaism) were instrumental in creating western civilization. It's fair to say that without that contribution, there would not be a western civilization.

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Lots of good points. You left out that it was one of the motivations behind the destruction of New World natives and the colonization of Africa. There's a lot of good that Christianity did in bring the West together, but it also used it to justify horrific acts to advance the West even further.

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