I just returned from a presentation on the four options that a specially called General Conference will consider later this month that may in large measure chart the course for the UMC's future. Conservatives have long been concerned about what they consider to be the leftward lurch of the church, and have helped bring this issue to a head as Gay's in the church continue to push back against their continued marginalization within their respective faith communities as well as within the universal church.

My hope is the One Church Plan that emphasizes unity will prevail. It will give conferences, churches and pastors the liberty to act in a manner consistent with their Christian convictions without demanding conformity on conflicts deemed to be non essential.

Regardless of what happens in St.Louis, the UMC will be changed forever.

United Methodists face vote on LGBTQ issues. Will it rip the church apart?
The specially-called United Methodist Church's General Conference will vote on how to address gay marriage and LGBTQ clergy. Local congregants are divided on the issue and afraid

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/living/religion/#storylink=cpy

cinque said:

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Iwithout demanding conformity on conflicts deemed to be non essential.

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chuckle

Canada2017 said:

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cinque said:

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Iwithout demanding conformity on conflicts deemed to be non essential.

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chuckle

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The ability of Jesus to save and liberate you for discipleship in the community does not turn on your sexuality.
It just doesn't.

Canada2017 said:

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cinque said:

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Canada2017 said:

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cinque said:

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Iwithout demanding conformity on conflicts deemed to be non essential.

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chuckle

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The ability of Jesus to save and liberate you for discipleship in the community does not turn on your sexuality.
It just doesn't.

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Sure

Just ignore whatever parts of the Old and New Testament that dont fit your narrative .

It's the new feel good 'theology '.

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Quite to the contrary, the Church is affirming the primacy of Scripture even as it acknowledges the importance of it not taking the place of God. They are not one in the same.

cinque said:

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Canada2017 said:

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cinque said:

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Canada2017 said:

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cinque said:

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Iwithout demanding conformity on conflicts deemed to be non essential.

---

chuckle

---

The ability of Jesus to save and liberate you for discipleship in the community does not turn on your sexuality.
It just doesn't.

---

Sure

Just ignore whatever parts of the Old and New Testament that dont fit your narrative .

It's the new feel good 'theology '.

---

Quite to the contrary, the Church is affirming the primacy of Scripture even as it acknowledges the importance of it not taking the place of God. They are not one in the same.

---

chuckle

Beautiful spin job ... really .

Got it down to where ignoring Gods word is ' not taking the place of God'

Redbrickbear said:

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The non-white (African, Latin American, Asian) growing and thriving parts of the Church will crush this issue.

They are full on in support of traditional teachings on sexual morality and against the rich Western sexual revolution.

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In my opinion ....there is no issue. One either follows the teachings of Jesus Christ or one is not a Christian.

Some pick and choose whatever teachings they wish, spin it, ignore whatever they want and tag the result with a feel good label . Cool...sounds good.

But it's not Christian .

Redbrickbear said:

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The non-white (African, Latin American, Asian) growing and thriving parts of the Church will crush this issue.

They are full on in support of traditional teachings on sexual morality and against the rich Western sexual revolution.

The woke liberal whites in the US are gonna regret letting these obviously uneducated and ignorant non-whites vote.

---

There is some question as to what extent the Trump administration's clamp down on people from **** hole countries will affect the numbers of Africans who will actually make it to St. Louis. Even so, the smart money is on the plan that removes anti homosexual language from the Discipline passing.

Canada2017 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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The non-white (African, Latin American, Asian) growing and thriving parts of the Church will crush this issue.

They are full on in support of traditional teachings on sexual morality and against the rich Western sexual revolution.

---

In my opinion ....there is no issue. One either follows the teachings of Jesus Christ or one is not a Christian.

Some pick and choose whatever teachings they wish, spin it, ignore whatever they want and tag the result with a feel good label . Cool...sounds good.

But it's not Christian .

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You gotta lotta nerve.

Canada2017 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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The non-white (African, Latin American, Asian) growing and thriving parts of the Church will crush this issue.

They are full on in support of traditional teachings on sexual morality and against the rich Western sexual revolution.

---

In my opinion ....there is no issue. One either follows the teachings of Jesus Christ or one is not a Christian.

Some pick and choose whatever teachings they wish, spin it, ignore whatever they want and tag the result with a feel good label . Cool...sounds good.

But it's not Christian .

---

I think Brah man agrees with you:

cinque said:

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Canada2017 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The non-white (African, Latin American, Asian) growing and thriving parts of the Church will crush this issue.

They are full on in support of traditional teachings on sexual morality and against the rich Western sexual revolution.

---

In my opinion ....there is no issue. One either follows the teachings of Jesus Christ or one is not a Christian.

Some pick and choose whatever teachings they wish, spin it, ignore whatever they want and tag the result with a feel good label . Cool...sounds good.

But it's not Christian .

---

I think Brah man agrees with you:

---

Your silly little videos don't alter Scripture. Nor does your self serving...rather obvious attempt to 'pick and choose' which parts of Jesus's teachings you wish to follow.

But hey it's today's 'cool' thing to do right ? Make up your own rules , alter what makes you feel uncomfortable....and still call yourself a 'christian' .

Win-Win

We all remember how Christ told the woman taken in adultery to "go and party hearty, if it feels good do it, you can always get an abortion." John (Shelby Spong) 6:66.

Canada2017 said:

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cinque said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The non-white (African, Latin American, Asian) growing and thriving parts of the Church will crush this issue.

They are full on in support of traditional teachings on sexual morality and against the rich Western sexual revolution.

---

In my opinion ....there is no issue. One either follows the teachings of Jesus Christ or one is not a Christian.

Some pick and choose whatever teachings they wish, spin it, ignore whatever they want and tag the result with a feel good label . Cool...sounds good.

But it's not Christian .

---

I think Brah man agrees with you:

---

Your silly little videos don't alter Scripture. Nor does your self serving...rather obvious attempt to 'pick and choose' which parts of Jesus's teachings you wish to follow.

But hey it's today's 'cool' thing to do right ? Make up your own rules , alter what makes you feel uncomfortable....and still call yourself a 'christian' .

Win-Win

---

Brah man thinks he following the teachings of Jesus Christ and I'm sure you can't convince him otherwise.

JXL said:

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We all remember how Christ told the woman taken in adultery to "go and party hearty, if it feels good do it, you can always get an abortion." John (Shelby Spong) 6:66.

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What does any of this have to do with the UMC possibly splintering over [openly] gay ordinations and church weddings?

cinque said:

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Canada2017 said:

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cinque said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The non-white (African, Latin American, Asian) growing and thriving parts of the Church will crush this issue.

They are full on in support of traditional teachings on sexual morality and against the rich Western sexual revolution.

---

In my opinion ....there is no issue. One either follows the teachings of Jesus Christ or one is not a Christian.

Some pick and choose whatever teachings they wish, spin it, ignore whatever they want and tag the result with a feel good label . Cool...sounds good.

But it's not Christian .

---

I think Brah man agrees with you:

---

Your silly little videos don't alter Scripture. Nor does your self serving...rather obvious attempt to 'pick and choose' which parts of Jesus's teachings you wish to follow.

But hey it's today's 'cool' thing to do right ? Make up your own rules , alter what makes you feel uncomfortable....and still call yourself a 'christian' .

Win-Win

---

Brah man thinks he following the teachings of Jesus Christ and I'm sure you can't convince him otherwise.

---

Your obvious deflection has nothing to do with your self serving attempt to ignore, alter , and distort the teachings of Jesus Christ to suit your narrative.

Hey go for it...form your own theology. Label it whatever you want .

But don't lie to yourself or others . If you don't intend to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ ....you are not Christian.

It's not a 'pick and choose' Faith....no matter how badly you want to do so .

Cinque, if you like pp in your butthole then that's your business.

Doc Holliday said:

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Cinque, if you like pp in your butthole then that's your business.

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This thread is about fissures in the church, not about your fantasizing about my talkeywacker.

cinque said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Cinque, if you like pp in your butthole then that's your business.

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This thread is about fissures in the church, not about your fantasizing about my talkeywacker.

---

LOL!

The core issue in our "fissures" seems to me to be how the church or a church denomination views Scripture: is Scripture really God's written word to us humans or is it merely some human beings' thinking about how God thinks we ought to conduct ourselves?

While I don't recall Jesus specifically talking about homosexuality, the Hebrew Scriptures did specifically. Jesus likewise said He came not to set that law aside but to complete it by living that law as a man. Paul had some pointed observations also as a product of his theological and legal training at the feet of Gamaliel.

Maybe Joshua's comments are valid: choose who you will serve, which requires one to closely examine what he or she truly believes about God and Jesus, and, by necessity, Scripture.

cinque said:

---

I just returned from a presentation on the four options that a specially called General Conference will consider later this month that may in large measure chart the course for the UMC's future. Conservatives have long been concerned about what they consider to be the leftward lurch of the church, and have helped bring this issue to a head as Gay's in the church continue to push back against their continued marginalization within their respective faith communities as well as within the universal church.

My hope is the One Church Plan that emphasizes unity will prevail. It will give conferences, churches and pastors the liberty to act in a manner consistent with their Christian convictions without demanding conformity on conflicts deemed to be non essential.

Regardless of what happens in St.Louis, the UMC will be changed forever.

United Methodists face vote on LGBTQ issues. Will it rip the church apart?
The specially-called United Methodist Church's General Conference will vote on how to address gay marriage and LGBTQ clergy. Local congregants are divided on the issue and afraid

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/living/religion/#storylink=cpy

---

My husband, who is Methodist down to his bone marrow, is fairly certain the church will either split or remain conservative--not because of church members in the U.S., but because of those in Africa and other more conservative nations.

Doc Holliday said:

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Cinque, if you like pp in your butthole then that's your business.

---

How old are you--five?

And do you seriously think poking nasty crude grade-school fun at someone who thinks God loves rather than condemns gay Christians is Christlike behavior?

I care a whole lot more about how people treat other people--with kindness or contempt, for example--than I do what they do in the privacy of their bedrooms.

And anyone who thinks they or their church is privy to the whole truth and nothing but the truth about God and who he deems worthy and what actions he considers sin needs a huge serving of humble pie, and maybe some lessons in Greek and Aramaic.

witchmo said:

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cinque said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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LYCinque, if you like pp in your butthole then that's your business.

---

This thread is about fissures in the church, not about your fantasizing about my talkeywacker.

---

LOL!

The core issue in our "fissures" seems to me to be how the church or a church denomination views Scripture: is Scripture really God's written word to us humans or is it merely some human beings' thinking about how God thinks we ought to conduct ourselves?

While I don't recall Jesus specifically talking about homosexuality, the Hebrew Scriptures did specifically. Jesus likewise said He came not to set that law aside but to complete it by living that law as a man. Paul had some pointed observations also as a product of his theological and legal training at the feet of Gamaliel.

Maybe Joshua's comments are valid: choose who you will serve, which requires one to closely examine what he or she truly believes about God and Jesus, and, by necessity, Scripture.

---

I attended a meeting with Bishop McKee late last year at LLUMC. He opined, rather sadly at one point that many Christians within his bishopric view this issue as a test of the church's fidelity to Scripture while some of those same Christians won't accept the appointment of a woman or black clergy person to their churches. If only these people would be content to love justice, do mercy and walk humbly with God, they might find common ground with gay Christians.

witchmo said:

---

cinque said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Cinque, if you like pp in your butthole then that's your business.

---

This thread is about fissures in the church, not about your fantasizing about my talkeywacker.

---

LOL!

The core issue in our "fissures" seems to me to be how the church or a church denomination views Scripture: is Scripture really God's written word to us humans or is it merely some human beings' thinking about how God thinks we ought to conduct ourselves?

While I don't recall Jesus specifically talking about homosexuality, the Hebrew Scriptures did specifically. Jesus likewise said He came not to set that law aside but to complete it by living that law as a man. Paul had some pointed observations also as a product of his theological and legal training at the feet of Gamaliel.

Maybe Joshua's comments are valid: choose who you will serve, which requires one to closely examine what he or she truly believes about God and Jesus, and, by necessity, Scripture.

---

Biblical inerrancy doesn't make sense when you are reading the Bible in translation. That's not the only reason it doesn't make sense. But it's a big one.

And even if you agree on the translation, you may not agree on how scripture should be interpretted.

In a country where the rule of law is precedent-based, depending on evolving interpretations of the Constitution as new issues and challenges and technologies arise, that shouldn't be a foreign concept.

Finally, no church that doesn't give women equal status should be entrusted to interpret the truth for everyone and claim God's authority to legislate morality with the force of law. That's what we've had for the last couple of millenea, and it hasn't worked out very well.

cinque said:

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witchmo said:

---

cinque said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

LYCinque, if you like pp in your butthole then that's your business.

---

This thread is about fissures in the church, not about your fantasizing about my talkeywacker.

---

LOL!

The core issue in our "fissures" seems to me to be how the church or a church denomination views Scripture: is Scripture really God's written word to us humans or is it merely some human beings' thinking about how God thinks we ought to conduct ourselves?

While I don't recall Jesus specifically talking about homosexuality, the Hebrew Scriptures did specifically. Jesus likewise said He came not to set that law aside but to complete it by living that law as a man. Paul had some pointed observations also as a product of his theological and legal training at the feet of Gamaliel.

Maybe Joshua's comments are valid: choose who you will serve, which requires one to closely examine what he or she truly believes about God and Jesus, and, by necessity, Scripture.

---

I attended a meeting with Bishop McKee late last year at LLUMC. He opined, rather sadly at one point that many Christians within his bishopric view this issue as a test of the church's fidelity to Scripture while some of those same Christians won't accept the appointment of a woman or black clergy person to their churches. IN 2019! If only these people would be content to love justice, do mercy and walk humbly with God, they might find common ground with gay Christians.

---

I have a solution.

The church shouldn't know about your orientation or sex life and people shouldn't broadcast it either, assume or care.

If there's a church that doesn't like it...go to a different church.

Everyone's trying to compel behavior.

Doc Holliday said:

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I have a solution.

The church shouldn't know about your orientation or sex life and people shouldn't broadcast it either, assume or care.

If there's a church that doesn't like it...go to a different church.

Everyone's trying to compel behavior.

---

Don't know about 'everyone' trying to compel behavior.

But Jesus Christ most certainly is . His teachings have been compelling Christians for over two thousand years .

Of course these days many folks feel entitled to 'pick and chose' which teachings they are going to follow ....and still call themselves Christian. Find that incredibly arrogant and delusional.

Those of you reading this should know that Canada's Church has been ordaining openly gay clergy for millennia because it understands that gay priests can ((and have) serve the church faithfully to the glory of God.
United Methodists like myself, hope we can learn something from Canada's church.

Will the Methodists also allow openly-Muslim priests?

As usual you make rather obvious attempts to twist the facts .

Have gay priests and bishops existed through the centuries....yes. But they are expected to be chaste....as are all priests .

The priest who performed our marriage ...remains a friend of mine. Always told my wife that Father John was gay ....she didn't believe me. But in my eyes it was obvious.

Finally Father John came out of the 'closet'....and was immediately bounced . John remains very bitter about his termination.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual acts are 'contrary to natural law ', acts of grave depravity ' and under no circumstances can they be approved '. But that persons experiencing homosexual tendencies must be accorded respect and dignity '.

Are there 'sinners' practicing homosexuality in the Church today....no doubt. We are all sinners.....especially Aggie Catholics. But such behavior goes directly against doctrine .

Canada2017 said:

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As usual you make rather obvious attempts to twist the facts .

Have gay priests and bishops existed through the centuries....yes. But they are expected to be chaste....as are all priests .

The priest who performed our marriage ...remains a friend of mine. Always told my wife that Father John was gay ....she didn't believe me. But in my eyes it was obvious.

Finally Father John came out of the 'closet'....and was immediately bounced . John remains very bitter about his termination.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual acts are 'contrary to natural law ', acts of grave depravity ' and under no circumstances can they be approved '. But that persons experiencing homosexual tendencies must be accorded respect and dignity '.

Are there 'sinners' practicing homosexuality in the Church today....no doubt. We are all sinners.....especially Aggie Catholics. But such behavior goes directly against doctrine .

---

Has your church stopped making the distinction between the verb and the noun? If not, why was your priest bounced? Did he cease to in persona Christi because he told the truth?

Doc Holliday said:

---

I have a solution.

The church shouldn't know about your orientation or sex life and people shouldn't broadcast it either, assume or care.

If there's a church that doesn't like it...go to a different church.

Everyone's trying to compel behavior.

---

Don't ask, don't tell means "stay in the closet."

As a Methodist, I'm hoping my church will invite gay people to be open about their orientation and even perform gay marriages.

Jinx 2 said:

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witchmo said:

---

cinque said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Cinque, if you like pp in your butthole then that's your business.

---

This thread is about fissures in the church, not about your fantasizing about my talkeywacker.

---

LOL!

The core issue in our "fissures" seems to me to be how the church or a church denomination views Scripture: is Scripture really God's written word to us humans or is it merely some human beings' thinking about how God thinks we ought to conduct ourselves?

While I don't recall Jesus specifically talking about homosexuality, the Hebrew Scriptures did specifically. Jesus likewise said He came not to set that law aside but to complete it by living that law as a man. Paul had some pointed observations also as a product of his theological and legal training at the feet of Gamaliel.

Maybe Joshua's comments are valid: choose who you will serve, which requires one to closely examine what he or she truly believes about God and Jesus, and, by necessity, Scripture.

---

Biblical inerrancy doesn't make sense when you are reading the Bible in translation. That's not the only reason it doesn't make sense. But it's a big one.

And even if you agree on the translation, you may not agree on how scripture should be interpretted.

In a country where the rule of law is precedent-based, depending on evolving interpretations of the Constitution as new issues and challenges and technologies arise, that shouldn't be a foreign concept.

Finally, no church that doesn't give women equal status should be entrusted to interpret the truth for everyone and claim God's authority to legislate morality with the force of law. That's what we've had for the last couple of millenea, and it hasn't worked out very well.

---

Paragraph 3 is spot on.

So far as the Constitution and human law, it doesn't equate with what is referred to as God's law imo: two separate bodies of work. Ex: whether gay marriage is legal or not isn't the same question of "rightness" thru the lens of Scripture. I get that law comes from our perspective of right and wrong but "discrimination" can't be justified from either viewpoint. That doesn't set aside the idea that there can be some "rightness" that stands even in the absence of human law.

"Inerrancy" is a word that finds little value in discussing ancient Biblical texts because we don't have the originals. That term just creates division and ultimately enemies, as Baptist history has shown. Picking on my own, here!

But inerrancy isn't the same as "accuracy of texts". When the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek (Septuagint), Jewish scholars/rabbis were brought together in this effort and what is referred to as the Old Testament is the result. Those scholars gave us an accurate translation. There have been notable modern translations in use but they are cultural expressions of what those scholars produces.

By contrast, the koine Greek is a different animal and Paul takes some positions which are rejected by many, again on the basis of our current thinking or cultural influences. No doubt the Scripture pertaining to Jesus, the church, and the faith have been "monkeyed" with by humans to fit our ends.

I keep returning to Jesus' view of the texts of His day and have a tough if not impossible time dismissing His reverence for those writings. Either they are accurate or they are not and I never read where Jesus allowed culture to inform those writings.

"we can't help who we love.." Jaime Lannister

cinque said:

---

I just returned from a presentation on the four options that a specially called General Conference will consider later this month that may in large measure chart the course for the UMC's future. Conservatives have long been concerned about what they consider to be the leftward lurch of the church, and have helped bring this issue to a head as Gay's in the church continue to push back against their continued marginalization within their respective faith communities as well as within the universal church.

My hope is the One Church Plan that emphasizes unity will prevail. It will give conferences, churches and pastors the liberty to act in a manner consistent with their Christian convictions without demanding conformity on conflicts deemed to be non essential.

Regardless of what happens in St.Louis, the UMC will be changed forever.

United Methodists face vote on LGBTQ issues. Will it rip the church apart?
The specially-called United Methodist Church's General Conference will vote on how to address gay marriage and LGBTQ clergy. Local congregants are divided on the issue and afraid

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/living/religion/#storylink=cpy

---

the outcome of the story is the same whether it is the rich, young ruler or the gay, young ruler. Whether riches are our god or a gay lifestyle is our god, it is something that comes between us and the one true God. Who/what do you worship? What fruit do you bare?

Legislating morality is never a good idea; Which is why we should abolish death by mother.