Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Typical response.....don't like the message; attempt to cast doubt. I can't help it you don't like the criteria.

---

I don't agree with your message. Plenty of other Christians/Christian churches don't, either.

Nor does every church agree with your narrow and very literal interpretation of scripture.

The "I'm right and you're wrong" stance you take is one of the reasons my flirtation with evangelical Christianity in my teens was over by the end of my freshman year in college.

The great thing is that, in a country with freedom of (and, in theory, from) religion, I can choose a church that doesn't hold to narrow beliefs I think are wrong and misguided, or choose no church at all, without fear.

What I find, however, is that men who go to churches where women have second-class/subservient status are harder to deal with in the workplace, in business and on forums like this. What that means, for me, is that I steer clear of businesses, workplaces and churches where such attitudes are prevalent, because I don't want to be discounted, paid less, or patronized. You probably do the same. So we just get more polarized.

---

It's not my message. It's Paul's God-breathed message. I can't help you with your real or contrived personal insecurities. Take it up with God.

Jinx 2 said:

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quash said:

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Guy Noir said:

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If G-d calls a male or a female to a position in a church I do not wish to stand in the way.

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That was my feel for it. You can't claim the "still small voice" only talks to men.

---

A company I worked for in the early 80s had been founded by 3 graduates of a Church of Christ college.

None of them could attend a meeting with investors, all of whom were CofC businessmen, and the office manager, a woman, had to represent the company. Meetings started with a prayer, and Carol didn't know women didn't lead prayers in the CofC, so she led a prayer.

The head of the company was horrified. "You should have asked one of THEM to lead the prayer," he groused at her. He also apologized to the businessmen at the next meeting. "Don't worry, Steve," one of them told him. "We knew that prayer never got past the ceiling." A male colleague at that meeting shared that response with Carol.

Only a couple of years before, I'd been at Baylor when the head of the SBC said that God did not hear the prayer of a Jew. I was struck that a CofC businessman would also conclude He did not hear the prayer of a woman.

---

interesting but, for a totally separate thread.

Does God hear the prayer of a non-Christian if that person is not seeking Him ie. " God, if you a real, show me."

"God breathed" does not mean dictated or doctrine. It means inspired by the spirit of faith. The Biblical writers, "I saw God in life and the church."

YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Typical response.....don't like the message; attempt to cast doubt. I can't help it you don't like the criteria.

---

I don't agree with your message. Plenty of other Christians/Christian churches don't, either.

Nor does every church agree with your narrow and very literal interpretation of scripture.

The "I'm right and you're wrong" stance you take is one of the reasons my flirtation with evangelical Christianity in my teens was over by the end of my freshman year in college.

The great thing is that, in a country with freedom of (and, in theory, from) religion, I can choose a church that doesn't hold to narrow beliefs I think are wrong and misguided, or choose no church at all, without fear.

What I find, however, is that men who go to churches where women have second-class/subservient status are harder to deal with in the workplace, in business and on forums like this. What that means, for me, is that I steer clear of businesses, workplaces and churches where such attitudes are prevalent, because I don't want to be discounted, paid less, or patronized. You probably do the same. So we just get more polarized.

---

It's not my message. It's Paul's God-breathed message. I can't help you with your real or contrived personal insecurities. Take it up with God.

---

Here's a book recommendation: Garry Wills' "What Paul Meant": https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/books/review/Linker.t.html

This is only a review, but the book--by a respected Greek scholar--clearly debunks the Catholic (Wills' own church) Church's demotion of women to second-class citizens. Here's a helpful excerpt of the NYTimes review:

...Wills insists that Jesus and Paul both opposed "religion," claiming that the worship of God was not something "based on external observances, on temples or churches, on hierarchies or priesthoods." Both Jesus and Paul were, in fact, "killed by religion."

Only in the Middle Ages, sometime before the ninth century, did the institutional church, with its "male monopoly" on "offices and honors," decide that "a woman apostle was unthinkable." To obscure the radical egalitarianism practiced by the founders of the faith, who believed that women could be "prophets in the gathering," the Roman hierarchy had to engage in what Wills calls a "Soviet-style rewriting of history." What most present-day Christians, and especially orthodox Roman Catholics, consider to be essential elements of the faith, he argues, must be understood as corruptions of Jesus' and Paul's intentions.

With this bracing book, Wills, who continues to call himself a Catholic, further cements his reputation as one of the most intellectually interesting and doctrinally heterodox Christians writing today. By argument or by implication, he manages to reject the legitimacy and authority not only of the papacy and the rest of the Catholic hierarchy but also of the early church councils, the church fathers and even, in many instances, the Gospels themselves. In their place he substitutes spontaneous devotion to God and neighbor and commitment to the politically subversive view that "love is the only law." So much for Christianity necessarily serving as a handmaiden of conservative politics.

God calls who God wants to call

Garry Wills, LOL.

YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Typical response.....don't like the message; attempt to cast doubt. I can't help it you don't like the criteria.

---

I don't agree with your message. Plenty of other Christians/Christian churches don't, either.

Nor does every church agree with your narrow and very literal interpretation of scripture.

The "I'm right and you're wrong" stance you take is one of the reasons my flirtation with evangelical Christianity in my teens was over by the end of my freshman year in college.

The great thing is that, in a country with freedom of (and, in theory, from) religion, I can choose a church that doesn't hold to narrow beliefs I think are wrong and misguided, or choose no church at all, without fear.

What I find, however, is that men who go to churches where women have second-class/subservient status are harder to deal with in the workplace, in business and on forums like this. What that means, for me, is that I steer clear of businesses, workplaces and churches where such attitudes are prevalent, because I don't want to be discounted, paid less, or patronized. You probably do the same. So we just get more polarized.

---

It's not my message. It's Paul's God-breathed message. I can't help you with your real or contrived personal insecurities. Take it up with God.

---

What does "God-breathed" mean?

Waco1947 said:

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"God breathed" does not mean dictated or doctrine. It means inspired by the spirit of faith. The Biblical writers say, , "I saw God in life and in the faith of the church."

---

What does 'God breathed' mean? None of this dictionary crap. What's it to evangelicals and orthodoxs? Does it mean dictated?

Sam Lowry said:

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Garry Wills, LOL.

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Garry Wills reads Paul in Greek.Do you?

Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Typical response.....don't like the message; attempt to cast doubt. I can't help it you don't like the criteria.

---

I don't agree with your message. Plenty of other Christians/Christian churches don't, either.

Nor does every church agree with your narrow and very literal interpretation of scripture.

The "I'm right and you're wrong" stance you take is one of the reasons my flirtation with evangelical Christianity in my teens was over by the end of my freshman year in college.

The great thing is that, in a country with freedom of (and, in theory, from) religion, I can choose a church that doesn't hold to narrow beliefs I think are wrong and misguided, or choose no church at all, without fear.

What I find, however, is that men who go to churches where women have second-class/subservient status are harder to deal with in the workplace, in business and on forums like this. What that means, for me, is that I steer clear of businesses, workplaces and churches where such attitudes are prevalent, because I don't want to be discounted, paid less, or patronized. You probably do the same. So we just get more polarized.

---

It's not my message. It's Paul's God-breathed message. I can't help you with your real or contrived personal insecurities. Take it up with God.

---

What does "God-breathed" mean?

---

It sounds like something a pastor who believes in Biblical inerrancy and whose interpretation of the Bible precludes female leadership in the pulpit would say to preclude any arguments that the books in the Bible were written and chosen and translated by fallible people who might have cherished agendas like male leadership in the "umbrella" mode the Campus Crusade for Christ promoted when I was in high school.

Jinx 2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Garry Wills, LOL.

---

Garry Wills reads Paul in Greek.Do you?

---

Yes.

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Typical response.....don't like the message; attempt to cast doubt. I can't help it you don't like the criteria.

---

I don't agree with your message. Plenty of other Christians/Christian churches don't, either.

Nor does every church agree with your narrow and very literal interpretation of scripture.

The "I'm right and you're wrong" stance you take is one of the reasons my flirtation with evangelical Christianity in my teens was over by the end of my freshman year in college.

The great thing is that, in a country with freedom of (and, in theory, from) religion, I can choose a church that doesn't hold to narrow beliefs I think are wrong and misguided, or choose no church at all, without fear.

What I find, however, is that men who go to churches where women have second-class/subservient status are harder to deal with in the workplace, in business and on forums like this. What that means, for me, is that I steer clear of businesses, workplaces and churches where such attitudes are prevalent, because I don't want to be discounted, paid less, or patronized. You probably do the same. So we just get more polarized.

---

It's not my message. It's Paul's God-breathed message. I can't help you with your real or contrived personal insecurities. Take it up with God.

---

What does "God-breathed" mean?

---

It comes from 2 Timothy 3:16-17 meaning inspired by or from God.

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

God breathed I Timothy answer begs the question.
Jinx's question still stands.

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Another example of why the NT is not reliable as an historical document.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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quash said:

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Guy Noir said:

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If G-d calls a male or a female to a position in a church I do not wish to stand in the way.

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That was my feel for it. You can't claim the "still small voice" only talks to men.

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A company I worked for in the early 80s had been founded by 3 graduates of a Church of Christ college.

None of them could attend a meeting with investors, all of whom were CofC businessmen, and the office manager, a woman, had to represent the company. Meetings started with a prayer, and Carol didn't know women didn't lead prayers in the CofC, so she led a prayer.

The head of the company was horrified. "You should have asked one of THEM to lead the prayer," he groused at her. He also apologized to the businessmen at the next meeting. "Don't worry, Steve," one of them told him. "We knew that prayer never got past the ceiling." A male colleague at that meeting shared that response with Carol.

Only a couple of years before, I'd been at Baylor when the head of the SBC said that God did not hear the prayer of a Jew. I was struck that a CofC businessman would also conclude He did not hear the prayer of a woman.

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interesting but, for a totally separate thread.

Does God hear the prayer of a non-Christian if that person is not seeking Him ie. " God, if you a real, show me."

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An all-knowing, all-seeing God hears everything.

The question is, how does He respond.

TexasScientist said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

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I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Another example of why the NT is not reliable as an historical document.

---

What always surprises me about strict "inerrant" interpretations of the Bible defended by "god-breathed" justifications is that they reflect a LACK of faith in God.

Instead of perceiving the Bible as a miracle of God working through fallible people to offer a message of love and forgiveness that has persisted for centuries and launched several of the world's major religions, these pastors have to "prove" the Bible is inerrant so they can use it as a cudgel to enforce whatever narrow interpretation they want to impose on their congregations and, too often, on government with the force of law: Women can't be leaders. Women shouldn't cut their hair. All homosexuals are sinners who shouldn't marry. Be fruitful and multiply, at a time when we've overwhelmed the planet.

Such intellectual calisthenics are not only dishonest; they're fear-based and a means of asserting control. Which is what most religions are about.

This tendency, more than anything else, shows that God is a human construct. He's as mean or merciful as we make him. And a lot of faith traditions make him mean.

Waco1947 said:

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God breathed I Timothy answer begs the question.
Jinx's question still stands.

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And I gave the answer. I can't help it if you don't like it.

Jinx 2 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Another example of why the NT is not reliable as an historical document.

---

What always surprises me about strict "inerrant" interpretations of the Bible defended by "god-breathed" justifications is that they reflect a LACK of faith in God.

Instead of perceiving the Bible as a miracle of God working through fallible people to offer a message of love and forgiveness that has persisted for centuries and launched several of the world's major religions, these pastors have to "prove" the Bible is inerrant so they can use it as a cudgel to enforce whatever narrow interpretation they want to impose on their congregations and, too often, on government with the force of law: Women can't be leaders. Women shouldn't cut their hair. All homosexuals are sinners who shouldn't marry. Be fruitful and multiply, at a time when we've overwhelmed the planet.

Such intellectual calisthenics are not only dishonest; they're fear-based and a means of asserting control. Which is what most religions are about.

This tendency, more than anything else, shows that God is a human construct. He's as mean or merciful as we make him. And a lot of faith traditions make him mean.

---

The final paragraph is a great example of breaking the 1st and 2nd commandments.

Jinx, to stay within the law of 1 and 2, what info do you use to find out who is God? Where does that info come from?

Waco1947 said:

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God breathed I Timothy answer begs the question.
Jinx's question still stands.

---

It means thepneustos, the only time the Greek word is used in the Bible.

You don't want the definition of theopneustos, so you really don't want to know what it means.

Jinx 2 said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Another example of why the NT is not reliable as an historical document.

---

What always surprises me about strict "inerrant" interpretations of the Bible defended by "god-breathed" justifications is that they reflect a LACK of faith in God.

Instead of perceiving the Bible as a miracle of God working through fallible people to offer a message of love and forgiveness that has persisted for centuries and launched several of the world's major religions, these pastors have to "prove" the Bible is inerrant so they can use it as a cudgel to enforce whatever narrow interpretation they want to impose on their congregations and, too often, on government with the force of law: Women can't be leaders. Women shouldn't cut their hair. All homosexuals are sinners who shouldn't marry. Be fruitful and multiply, at a time when we've overwhelmed the planet.

Such intellectual calisthenics are not only dishonest; they're fear-based and a means of asserting control. Which is what most religions are about.

This tendency, more than anything else, shows that God is a human construct. He's as mean or merciful as we make him. And a lot of faith traditions make him mean.

---

I sometimes attend a church where they teach at the Lord's supper, women are not to speak. If they have questions, they should ask through their husbands. If they don't have a husband available, they should meet separately with an elder and ask through them.

Forest Bueller said:

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Waco1947 said:

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God breathed I Timothy answer begs the question.
Jinx's question still stands.

---

It means thepneustos, the only time the Greek word is used in the Bible.

You don't want the definition of theopneustos, so you really don't want to know what it means.

---

No I did not know the definition.
"Biblical inspiration is the doctrine in Christian theology that the human authors and editors of Bible were led or influenced by God with the result that their writings many be designated in some sense the word of God.
The word inspiration comes by way of Vulgate Latin and the King James English translations of the Greek word (theopneustos, literally, "God-breathed") found in 2 Timothy 3:163:17:

Omnis Scriptura divinitus inspirata utilis est ad docendum, ad arguendum, ad corripiendum, et erudiendum in justitia : ut perfectus sit homo Dei, ad omne opus bonum instructus.[3]
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.[4]
When Jerome translated the Greek text of the Bible into the language of the common people of Latium (the region of central western Italy in which the city of Rome is located), he translated the Greek theopneustos as divinitus inspirata ("divinely breathed into"). The word "inspiration" comes from the Latin noun inspiratio and from the verb inspirare. Inspirare is a compound term resulting from the Latin prefix in (inside, into) and the verb spirare (to breathe). Inspirare meant originally "to blow into", as for example in the sentence of the Roman poet Ovid: "conchae [...] sonanti inspirare iubet"[5] ("he orders to blow into the resonant [...] shell"). In classic Roman times, inspirare had already come to mean "to breathe deeply" and assumed also the figurative sense of "to instill [something] in the heart or in the mind of someone". In Christian theology, the Latin word inspirare was already used by some Church Fathers in the first centuries to translate the Greek term pno.

The Church Fathers often referred to writings other than the documents that formed or would form the biblical canon as "inspired".[6] Some modern English translations opt for "God-breathed" (NIV) or "breathed out by God" (ESV) and avoid "inspiration" altogether, since its most literal meaning (and etymology), unlike its Latin root, leans toward breathing in instead of breathing out. Wiki
It's still a troublesome word.
I guessing here but to you, FB, inspired means "the words of God."
To me it means the word breathed out by God through faith and practice of faith. In other words the Biblical writers looked for God to speak to them through their lives and their relationships to others and God. The writers approach their understanding of history with a "God bias" but other writers standing shoulder to shoulder to the Bible writers came with a different cultural and/or religious perspective and would write differently.
You (FB) and I both approach life with God eyes, that is, we see life through our salvation. It does not mean, as you know, that we see God the same way.
My God is love and grace and justice but not all powerful; but your God is also love and grace and justice AND all powerful.
Both views present problems. TxScienist represents your problems.
My view presents problems too because Jesus and the reports of Him are decidedly on the side of an all powerful God.
I would suggest that we are both working out our faith in fear and trembling.

In the final chapter of his letter to Romans, Paul sends greetings to several people. He mentions a woman named Phoebe, who is delivering the letter for him. Phoebe is described in the Greek as a diakonos, from which we get the word "deacon."

This is the same word used in 1 Timothy, where the clear message is that the position of deacon is restricted to men. Paul obviously observed no such restriction. 1 Timothy comes from a later time when males asserted their authority and reined in what had been a highly egalitarian way of being in Paul's churches in the mid-first century.

Jinx 2 said:

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In the final chapter of his letter to Romans, Paul sends greetings to several people. He mentions a woman named Phoebe, who is delivering the letter for him. Phoebe is described in the Greek as a diakonos, from which we get the word "deacon."

This is the same word used in 1 Timothy, where the clear message is that the position of deacon is restricted to men. Paul obviously observed no such restriction. 1 Timothy comes from a later time when males asserted their authority and reined in what had been a highly egalitarian way of being in Paul's churches in the mid-first century.

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Just to expand on that here is the verse with footnote.


Romans 16:1-2 English Standard Version (ESV)


Personal Greetings

16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant[a] of the church at Cenchreae,2 that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well.

Footnotes:
[ol]

Romans 16:1 Or deaconess

[/ol]


Romans 16:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

Personal Greetings
16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon[a][b] of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.
Footnotes:
[ol]

Romans 16:1 Or servant

Romans 16:1 The word deacon refers here to a Christian designated to serve with the overseers/elders of the church in a variety of ways

[/ol]



Some folks don't love the NIV, but the word is the same in context.