The Word of/by/about God?

15,452 Views | 146 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Oldbear83
Waco1947
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The concept of the bible being The word of God is corrupt, mainly because of a misunderstanding of the preposition "of" into English, mainly from the Greek, Hebrew, and Latin. In those languages "of" can also mean "by" OR "about." Hence it was a translator's prerogative, based on his or her own theology, to call the bible either the "word of God" or the "word about God."

In fact, when the books of the bible were finally gathered together into one printable volume, starting with Johann Gutenberg back in the 1500's, publishing houses began to compete with one another. One of the sales points they used in pushing their particular product was to say, "Our bible is the word of God" (as opposed to what our competition is printing). As time went by people simply accepted that as fact, rather than understanding that the bible is simply words about God that the Church collected together and declared "sacred scripture," even though even the main branches of Christianity haven't even agreed upon a single list of books that should be included to this very day!

The bible, itself, does not even declare itself to be God's word! But, indeed, there are passages in scripture where a prophet may say that the word of God came to him. But, those are only the prophet's account of an experience he had.

But, the bible does say what the word of God is. Speaking of Jesus, the gospel of John makes it very clear that the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us. On top of that, the gospel says that the word (the Logos in Greek) was with God in the beginning and that everything that was created was done so by the power of the Logos, God's word.

Hence, the Logos, Christ, and nothing more, is God's word. To declare that anything else is God's word might even be called an act of idolatry.

So, our problem is understanding where our knowledge of God is coming from. More than anything else, it has to be from, yes, a study of the sacred scriptures, but also from what all of us within the Church have said about those scriptures in our tradition, experience, and reason.

Through that prayerful association and fellowship we can and do often feel the loving presence, power, direction, and inspiration of God's word -- the Logos -- the Christ. That makes our faith a living faith and is one of the main reasons we do many things in our life together that may sometimes even seem contrary to various literal interpretations of scripture that were frowned upon by the church even fifty years ago, such as the ordination of women.
Sam Lowry
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Waco1947 said:

The concept of the bible being God's word is corrupt, mainly because of a misunderstanding of the preposition "of" into English, mainly from the Greek, Hebrew, and Latin. In those languages "of" can also mean "by" OR "about." Hence it was a translator's prerogative, based on his or her own theology, to call the bible either the "word of God" or the "word about God."
This is total nonsense. The original phrase doesn't even contain a preposition.
Waco1947
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Waco1947 said:

The concept of the bible being The word of God is corrupt, mainly because of a misunderstanding of the preposition "of" into English, mainly from the Greek, Hebrew, and Latin. In those languages "of" can also mean "by" OR "about." Hence it was a translator's prerogative, based on his or her own theology, to call the bible either the "word of God" or the "word about God."

In fact, when the books of the bible were finally gathered together into one printable volume, starting with Johann Gutenberg back in the 1500's, publishing houses began to compete with one another. One of the sales points they used in pushing their particular product was to say, "Our bible is the word of God" (as opposed to what our competition is printing). As time went by people simply accepted that as fact, rather than understanding that the bible is simply words about God that the Church collected together and declared "sacred scripture," even though even the main branches of Christianity haven't even agreed upon a single list of books that should be included to this very day!

The bible, itself, does not even declare itself to be God's word! But, indeed, there are passages in scripture where a prophet may say that the word of God came to him. But, those are only the prophet's account of an experience he had.

But, the bible does say what the word of God is. Speaking of Jesus, the gospel of John makes it very clear that the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us. On top of that, the gospel says that the word (the Logos in Greek) was with God in the beginning and that everything that was created was done so by the power of the Logos, God's word.

Hence, the Logos, Christ, and nothing more, is God's word. To declare that anything else is God's word might even be called an act of idolatry.

So, our problem is understanding where our knowledge of God is coming from. More than anything else, it has to be from, yes, a study of the sacred scriptures, but also from what all of us within the Church have said about those scriptures in our tradition, experience, and reason.

Through that prayerful association and fellowship we can and do often feel the loving presence, power, direction, and inspiration of God's word -- the Logos -- the Christ. That makes our faith a living faith and is one of the main reasons we do many things in our life together that may sometimes even seem contrary to various literal interpretations of scripture that were frowned upon by the church even fifty years ago, such as the ordination of women.
I changed it for you Mr Pedantic
Sam Lowry
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Waco1947 said:

Waco1947 said:

The concept of the bible being The word of God is corrupt, mainly because of a misunderstanding of the preposition "of" into English, mainly from the Greek, Hebrew, and Latin. In those languages "of" can also mean "by" OR "about." Hence it was a translator's prerogative, based on his or her own theology, to call the bible either the "word of God" or the "word about God."

In fact, when the books of the bible were finally gathered together into one printable volume, starting with Johann Gutenberg back in the 1500's, publishing houses began to compete with one another. One of the sales points they used in pushing their particular product was to say, "Our bible is the word of God" (as opposed to what our competition is printing). As time went by people simply accepted that as fact, rather than understanding that the bible is simply words about God that the Church collected together and declared "sacred scripture," even though even the main branches of Christianity haven't even agreed upon a single list of books that should be included to this very day!

The bible, itself, does not even declare itself to be God's word! But, indeed, there are passages in scripture where a prophet may say that the word of God came to him. But, those are only the prophet's account of an experience he had.

But, the bible does say what the word of God is. Speaking of Jesus, the gospel of John makes it very clear that the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us. On top of that, the gospel says that the word (the Logos in Greek) was with God in the beginning and that everything that was created was done so by the power of the Logos, God's word.

Hence, the Logos, Christ, and nothing more, is God's word. To declare that anything else is God's word might even be called an act of idolatry.

So, our problem is understanding where our knowledge of God is coming from. More than anything else, it has to be from, yes, a study of the sacred scriptures, but also from what all of us within the Church have said about those scriptures in our tradition, experience, and reason.

Through that prayerful association and fellowship we can and do often feel the loving presence, power, direction, and inspiration of God's word -- the Logos -- the Christ. That makes our faith a living faith and is one of the main reasons we do many things in our life together that may sometimes even seem contrary to various literal interpretations of scripture that were frowned upon by the church even fifty years ago, such as the ordination of women.
I changed it for you Mr Pedantic
You're missing the point. There's no misunderstanding of the preposition in the original languages because there is no preposition in the original languages. If they'd wanted to say "word about God," they would have used a preposition. "God's word" or "word of God" is the correct translation.
JXL
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2 Timothy 3:15-17:

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Forest Bueller
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Never mind that Jesus constantly quoted the old Testament as scripture. You would think he would have warned us that it is not "God's Word", instead he used it as a anchor for His teachings.

Why you have become an enemy of your own religion I will never understand.
Canada2017
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Forest Bueller said:

Never mind that Jesus constantly quoted the old Testament as scripture. You would think he would have warned us that it is not "God's Word", instead he used it as a anchor for His teachings.

Why you have become an enemy of your own religion I will never understand.


Such behavior generates the attention ol 47 desperately craves .
Waco1947
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Prove it. My source says different
Sam Lowry
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Waco1947 said:

Prove it. My source says different
Who's your source? Did you write the OP?
Sam Lowry
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47?
Oldbear83
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Waco1947 said:

Prove it. My source says different
Since you have established that you do not depend on Scripture for veracity Waco, I conclude your 'source' is something much more ... fallible.
Sam Lowry
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Waco1947 said:

Prove it. My source says different
I apologize for overstating my case. Assuming the NT authors consistently expressed themselves in the most confusing and ambiguous way they could, your interpretation is not a grammatical impossibility. It's just a really bad exegesis. In fact "exegesis" probably isn't the right word at all. Taking it as a prerogative to translate based on one's own theology is the textbook definition of eisegesis.
Waco1947
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Oldbear83 said:

Waco1947 said:

Prove it. My source says different
Since you have established that you do not depend on Scripture for veracity Waco, I conclude your 'source' is something much more ... fallible.
Why, yes. Yes, I do. It's the original Greek. It's called scholarship
Waco1947
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What you can't get through your heads- is that I believe in the veracity of the scripture with regards to faith but physics.
Not once in contemporary history have physicists consulted the Bible for answer.
Nor chemistry
Nor biology
Oldbear83
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Waco1947 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Waco1947 said:

Prove it. My source says different
Since you have established that you do not depend on Scripture for veracity Waco, I conclude your 'source' is something much more ... fallible.
Why, yes. Yes, I do. It's the original Greek. It's called scholarship
If you had really attended seminary, you'd know not all the manuscripts were in Greek.

Fake minister gonna fake.
Oldbear83
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Waco1947 said:

What you can't get through your heads- is that I believe in the veracity of the scripture with regards to faith but physics.
Not once in contemporary history have physicists consulted the Bible for answer.
Nor chemistry
Nor biology
Your soul does not depend on the work of Stephen Hawking, but Christ Jesus.

And right about now I sincerely hope that Dr. Hawking had faith in Christ, because in the Kingdom of Heaven science is useless.
Waco1947
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There were hundred of manuscripts copied - each with a translation to the writers prerogative.
As I said in OP
"In fact, when the books of the bible were finally gathered together into one printable volume, starting with Johann Gutenberg back in the 1500's, publishing houses began to compete with one another. One of the sales points they used in pushing their particular product was to say, "Our bible is the word of God" (as opposed to what our competition is printing). As time went by people simply accepted that as fact, rather than understanding that the bible is simply words about God that the Church collected together and declared "sacred scripture," even though even the main branches of Christianity haven't even agreed upon a single list of books that should be included to this very day!"
Waco1947
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It is always the key question - Which Bible?
Oldbear83
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Waco1947 said:

It is always the key question - Which Bible?
Poor Waco, all his whining and there is still not one valid Scripture which is OK with killing unborn children because you did not want to be pregnant.

Quite the opposite - Mary certainly did not plan to become pregnant, but when it happened she rejoiced in God's blessing and gave birth to the Savior of the World ... who by the way took not a single Science class, but healed the sick, turned water to wine, commanded the wind and rain, and raised the dead.
Polycarp
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So 47, in Hebrew, how does one show possession? Something like "son of David," or Israel of God", or one I have been studying lately "The fear of the LORD(YHWH).

In Ps 19:7-9, there are a number of ________ of YHWH. What Hebrew word represents "of?"
Waco1947
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"Law" of God is not the word of God. And again the the key word is a simple preposition "of."
Waco1947
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Psalm 19
7 The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the decrees of the Lord are sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is clear,
"Law, decrees, precepts, Commandment". It's called parallelism which is the form poetry in the Psalms.
Law does not = word. Paul is rather clear that and so is John
Polycarp
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Waco1947 said:

"Law" of God is not the word of God. And again the the key word is a simple preposition "of."


You're not listening. I gave these examples and asked what Hebrew word represents "of. " let's look at something other than "the word of God."

Joel 2:31 speaks of the "day of the Lord." What Hebrew word represents "of?"



Waco1947
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Polycarp said:

Waco1947 said:

"Law" of God is not the word of God. And again the the key word is a simple preposition "of."


You're not listening. I gave these examples and asked what Hebrew word represents "of. " let's look at something other than "the word of God."

Joel 2:31 speaks of the "day of the Lord." What Hebrew word represents "of?"




I don't know. Google it. I would be interested in your findings.
Sam Lowry
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Waco1947 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Waco1947 said:

Prove it. My source says different
Since you have established that you do not depend on Scripture for veracity Waco, I conclude your 'source' is something much more ... fallible.
Why, yes. Yes, I do. It's the original Greek. It's called scholarship
It's called straining the text beyond the limits of reasonable interpretation in order to promote an agenda.
Sam Lowry
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Waco1947 said:

What you can't get through your heads- is that I believe in the veracity of the scripture with regards to faith but physics.
You believe in neither. What you believe in is a religion of pseudo-science.
Sam Lowry
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Waco1947 said:

There were hundred of manuscripts copied - each with a translation to the writers prerogative.
As I said in OP
"In fact, when the books of the bible were finally gathered together into one printable volume, starting with Johann Gutenberg back in the 1500's, publishing houses began to compete with one another. One of the sales points they used in pushing their particular product was to say, "Our bible is the word of God" (as opposed to what our competition is printing). As time went by people simply accepted that as fact, rather than understanding that the bible is simply words about God that the Church collected together and declared "sacred scripture," even though even the main branches of Christianity haven't even agreed upon a single list of books that should be included to this very day!"
The canon was assembled and recognized as the word of God more than 1,000 years before Gutenberg.
Forest Bueller
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Sam Lowry said:

Waco1947 said:

What you can't get through your heads- is that I believe in the veracity of the scripture with regards to faith but physics.
You believe in neither. What you believe in is a religion of pseudo-science.


Quote:

If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain. And if The Messiah is not risen, our preaching is worthless and your faith is also worthless. If Christ hasn't come back to life, our message has no meaning and your faith also has no meaning.

In the past 20 years, many of the so-called mainline churches have been preaching a Christ without the resurrection and they now have ended up with a dead religion. For God's Word tells us that without the resurrection of Jesus Christ, our faith is in vain. Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Christianity is dead and done for.
Here is actual scripture "as regards to faith".


Sam has hit the nail on the head.
JXL
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Waco1947 said:

There were hundred of manuscripts copied - each with a translation to the writers prerogative.
As I said in OP
"In fact, when the books of the bible were finally gathered together into one printable volume, starting with Johann Gutenberg back in the 1500's, publishing houses began to compete with one another. One of the sales points they used in pushing their particular product was to say, "Our bible is the word of God" (as opposed to what our competition is printing). As time went by people simply accepted that as fact, rather than understanding that the bible is simply words about God that the Church collected together and declared "sacred scripture," even though even the main branches of Christianity haven't even agreed upon a single list of books that should be included to this very day!"


Presumably the person you're quoting has never heard of the Muratorian Canon.
Oldbear83
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Waco1947 said:

It is always the key question - Which Bible?
Actually, the key question is 'Do you believe in Jesus of Nazareth as the only-begotten Son of God, who died for our sins and rose from the dead to demonstrate His power over this world'?
Polycarp
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Waco1947 said:

Polycarp said:

Waco1947 said:

"Law" of God is not the word of God. And again the the key word is a simple preposition "of."


You're not listening. I gave these examples and asked what Hebrew word represents "of. " let's look at something other than "the word of God."

Joel 2:31 speaks of the "day of the Lord." What Hebrew word represents "of?"




I don't know. Google it. I would be interested in your findings.


I'm not making the claim in your OP. You are. You speak of scholarship and yet you do not know. So, are you just lazy. Do some scholarship. BTW, how many semesters of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic have you taken?
Oldbear83
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Waco1947 said:

Polycarp said:

Waco1947 said:

"Law" of God is not the word of God. And again the the key word is a simple preposition "of."


You're not listening. I gave these examples and asked what Hebrew word represents "of. " let's look at something other than "the word of God."

Joel 2:31 speaks of the "day of the Lord." What Hebrew word represents "of?"




I don't know. Google it. I would be interested in your findings.
"I don't know".

Waco's first honest answer in a while.
TexasScientist
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Sam Lowry said:

Waco1947 said:

There were hundred of manuscripts copied - each with a translation to the writers prerogative.
As I said in OP
"In fact, when the books of the bible were finally gathered together into one printable volume, starting with Johann Gutenberg back in the 1500's, publishing houses began to compete with one another. One of the sales points they used in pushing their particular product was to say, "Our bible is the word of God" (as opposed to what our competition is printing). As time went by people simply accepted that as fact, rather than understanding that the bible is simply words about God that the Church collected together and declared "sacred scripture," even though even the main branches of Christianity haven't even agreed upon a single list of books that should be included to this very day!"
The canon was assembled and recognized as the word of God more than 1,000 years before Gutenberg.
All assembled (NT), recognized and written as the words of God 100's of years later by politically appointed men. Seems to me to be the words of men from the minds of men.
Polycarp
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Waco1947 said:

But, the bible does say what the word of God is. Speaking of Jesus, the gospel of John makes it very clear that the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us. On top of that, the gospel says that the word (the Logos in Greek) was with God in the beginning and that everything that was created was done so by the power of the Logos, God's word.

Hence, the Logos, Christ, and nothing more, is God's word. To declare that anything else is God's word might even be called an act of idolatry.
Im not sure Jesus the Christ is the Word of God (or word of God). John certainly does not claim Jesus to the Word of God. John certainly does not claim that the Word of God became flesh. John does not claim that Jesus is the Logos of God.

47, what does the introduction of John claim about Jesus?
TexasScientist
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According to John (the latest written Gospel to make canon) the Word was with God in the beginning, and all things came into existence through the Word. When the Word became flesh, Jesus came into existence as the incarnation of God's Word as his only son. This is a completely different view who Jesus was from Paul's writings. According to Paul, Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher who was in the form of God but was not equal with God, and did not regard being equal with God something to be sought after.

 
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