"Gun safety begins, then, not with technical fixes, but with spreading the truthful information: people who bring guns into their homes are endangering themselves and their loved ones." David Frum
Once again 11 dead

The shooter lived in the courthouse?

Go screw yourself "preacher."

You mean this dude murdered 11 people in his own home? He killed his loved ones? I had not heard that. Gonna Google and get back to you.

Waco blames David Frum for mass shooting

Huh.

I'm sorry 12 Dead.

More babies were murdered in the womb yesterday than people murdered in that courthouse.

He doesn't care about that. Butchering humans is a right, but not with a gun.

Waco1947 said:

---

"Gun safety begins, then, not with technical fixes, but with spreading the truthful information: people who bring guns into their homes are endangering themselves and their loved ones." David Frum
Once again 12 dead

---

the issue is guns

The Waco Butcher. More dead by his words than ever killed by a gun.

Evil.

Waco1947 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"Gun safety begins, then, not with technical fixes, but with spreading the truthful information: people who bring guns into their homes are endangering themselves and their loved ones." David Frum
Once again 12 dead

---

the issue is guns

---

more like evil people

The secondary issue is why Waco feels his paranoia overrides our Constitution

Waco1947 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"Gun safety begins, then, not with technical fixes, but with spreading the truthful information: people who bring guns into their homes are endangering themselves and their loved ones." David Frum
Once again 12 dead

---

the issue is guns

---

is it? You dont think it might be the normalization of violence in society? The glorification of infamous people? The tabloid sensationalism style of reporting news? The increased violence in movies and video games? Bad parenting allowing young kids to play fortnight(its y12 but kids in my nephews 2nd grade class play it aka8-9 yr olds) Other countrys have a gun inevery house and it doesnt have mass shootings... it is most definitely not the gun.

Read the latest article in science daily n the effects ofgun violence in video games and how it effects kids "Children exposed to violent versions of the video game were more likely to engage in the dangerous behavior of pulling the trigger at themselves or their partner than children exposed to the nonviolent version"

https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/gun-violence/

Waco1947 said:

---

https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/gun-violence/

---

still not the gun...

Anyone notice the rise in social justice corresponds with the rise in mass shootings?

GrowlTowel said:

---

Anyone notice the rise in social justice corresponds with the rise in mass shootings?

---

So we should blame AOC or Beto?

Ah yes here is Waco spreading the same lie he has for years. This quote is taken out of context and is false. He has been shown it is false every time he uses it but he still uses it and ignores the truth.

Waco1947 said:

---

"Gun safety begins, then, not with technical fixes, but with spreading the truthful information: people who bring guns into their homes are endangering themselves and their loved ones." David Frum
Once again 11 dead

---

Explain this to me one more time using this real life scenario I just experienced. It wasn't in my home, but there were thousands of people there, so in theory--it should have been a bigger problem than in my home where there are less than 10 (most of the time).

Yesterday was Richardson ISD graduation. My daughter knows some kids in the Richardson High School class of 2019 and she secured a ticket to attend. I dropped her off.

About 10:40 last night I picked her up. I was carrying a full size 9mm pistol with 17 rounds in the gun and an extra mag of 16 in my pocket. (The bullets I use are the exact same caliber and make that Richardson PD use.) The gun was concealed under my t-shirt. (All perfectly legal as long as I did not enter the venue--which I did not do or even attempt to do.)

As I waited, I took so many pictures of celebrating families, I lost count. Not a single person saw me as a scary individual. In fact, not a single person even noticed I had a gun. (Or if they did, they did not point it out to me or any of the half dozen cops milling around outside--and if they did, the cops never came and talked to me.) I take all of that to mean--not a single person knew and/or cared that a man (99% of them didn't know--I have taught a few of those kids) had a gun (that they didn't know about) standing in their midst.

I didn't touch the gun--not even to adjust it on my belt.

So I have some questions:
1. How was I a danger to myself or others? Be specific. Don't generalize. Give me an actionable example of me and others being in danger.

2. I wasn't the only person armed last night. As I pointed out, there were about 12 police officers split up between traffic duty and security. Were their guns introducing danger or just mine?

3. If just mine, what's the difference between a cop bringing a gun and a background cleared citizen bringing a gun? In Texas, LTC holders are statistically less likely to commit a crime than a police officer--by a lot.

4. If we're both introducing danger into the situation, why doesn't your gun control argument call for the police to turn in their weapons as well? There were 6 of them (possibly more as I did not go inside) and 1 of me. The danger exponent from them had to be off the charts right? When I landed in Minneapolis, MN on Thursday morning, there were police officers walking the concourse with AR-15's slung over their shoulder, down their chest, pointed at the floor and their fingers next to the trigger. Was I really in mortal danger--or was I actually safer because I did not take my gun on this trip because I went with a bunch of anti-gun people and left my gun at home and was now adequately protected by the police in case something happened?

5. And why can't the government lead by example and turn in their weapons first?

Waco1947 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"Gun safety begins, then, not with technical fixes, but with spreading the truthful information: people who bring guns into their homes are endangering themselves and their loved ones." David Frum
Once again 12 dead

---

the issue is guns

---

More people die every year from alcohol abuse than guns

Just sayin......

ValhallaBear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"Gun safety begins, then, not with technical fixes, but with spreading the truthful information: people who bring guns into their homes are endangering themselves and their loved ones." David Frum
Once again 12 dead

---

the issue is guns

---

More people die every year from alcohol abuse than guns

Just sayin......

---

But muh government can't take total control without muh banning of all guns REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

---

You are begging the question

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

How was it easy? Please list the parts of the process that are too easy.


Then please explain what in this guys background should have prevented him from being able to buy a gun.

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"Gun safety begins, then, not with technical fixes, but with spreading the truthful information: people who bring guns into their homes are endangering themselves and their loved ones." David Frum
Once again 11 dead

---

Explain this to me one more time using this real life scenario I just experienced. It wasn't in my home, but there were thousands of people there, so in theory--it should have been a bigger problem than in my home where there are less than 10 (most of the time).

Yesterday was Richardson ISD graduation. My daughter knows some kids in the Richardson High School class of 2019 and she secured a ticket to attend. I dropped her off.

About 10:40 last night I picked her up. I was carrying a full size 9mm pistol with 17 rounds in the gun and an extra mag of 16 in my pocket. (The bullets I use are the exact same caliber and make that Richardson PD use.) The gun was concealed under my t-shirt. (All perfectly legal as long as I did not enter the venue--which I did not do or even attempt to do.)

As I waited, I took so many pictures of celebrating families, I lost count. Not a single person saw me as a scary individual. In fact, not a single person even noticed I had a gun. (Or if they did, they did not point it out to me or any of the half dozen cops milling around outside--and if they did, the cops never came and talked to me.) I take all of that to mean--not a single person knew and/or cared that a man (99% of them didn't know--I have taught a few of those kids) had a gun (that they didn't know about) standing in their midst.

I didn't touch the gun--not even to adjust it on my belt.

So I have some questions:
1. How was I a danger to myself or others? Be specific. Don't generalize. Give me an actionable example of me and others being in danger.
"You shoot your dick off because you lose focus and accidentally shoot yourself. You are fallible."

2. I wasn't the only person armed last night. As I pointed out, there were about 12 police officers split up between traffic duty and security. Were their guns introducing danger or just mine? "All of you were introducing danger. You were surrounded by fallible human beings."

3. If just mine, what's the difference between a cop bringing a gun and a background cleared citizen bringing a gun? In Texas, LTC holders are statistically less likely to commit a crime than a police officer--by a lot. "Probably but you were in front of me I knew nothing of your background you would be a perceived danger to me. I have know way knowing of if are a licensed, trained or sane. I don't have ESP."

4. If we're both introducing danger into the situation, why doesn't your gun control argument call for the police to turn in their weapons as well? There were 6 of them (possibly more as I did not go inside) and 1 of me. The danger exponent from them had to be off the charts right? When I landed in Minneapolis, MN on Thursday morning, there were police officers walking the concourse with AR-15's slung over their shoulder, down their chest, pointed at the floor and their fingers next to the trigger. Was I really in mortal danger--or was I actually safer because I did not take my gun on this trip because I went with a bunch of anti-gun people and left my gun at home and was now adequately protected by the police in case something happened? ""'Mortal danger' is your word not mine. Again I have a certain level of faith in armed officers because of their uniforms and training. I have no reason to have faith in you if you are standing in front of me with a gun on your belt. Why should I trust a stranger?"

5. And why can't the government lead by example and turn in their weapons first? "Because it is their job to protect us not yours. You can protect your family but I have no need of your gun around me. I will take my chances with the police."

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

---

You are begging the question

---

Actually you are.

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.

I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.

Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?

Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)

So again--define easy.

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

---

You are begging the question

---

Actually you are.

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.

I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.

Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?

Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)

So again--define easy.

---

Easy at the point of purchase

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

---

You are begging the question

---

Actually you are.

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.

I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.

Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?

Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)

So again--define easy.

---

Easy at the point of purchase

---

How was it easy? Explain

According to this article he bought two handguns. One in 2016 and one in 2018.

So he didn't go out and buy the guns just for this shooting or immediately before the shooting.

He resigned from his job of 15 years, had satisfactory performance reviews and was not fired or in danger of being fired.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/1326599001

So Waco explain how buying a gun 3 years before a shooting is "easy" and what you think should be done to make it harder.

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

---

You are begging the question

---

Actually you are.

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.

I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.

Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?

Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)

So again--define easy.

---

See post above on how he got the gun/ guns. Bought legally in 2016 and 2018.

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

---

You are begging the question

---

Actually you are.

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.

I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.

Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?

Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)

So again--define easy.

---

Easy at the point of purchase

---

Exactly what? A lot happens when you buy a gun.
1. Cost--prohibitive for many. So what's easy?
2. The form--yes, it's easy to fill out. They even give you a pen if you didn't bring one. Should we make people provide their own pens? One gun shop I use has you type your information in--maybe that's what makes it too easy.
3. But once you fill out the form--things are no longer in your hands:
a. a gun dealer can decline a sale at any time for any reason (even if the form comes back approved).
b. the ATF checks you out. Sometimes they send back a hold. If they do this, there is nothing you can do. You are not getting a gun for the next 3 days. And you may not get one at all.
4. Which brings us to how does one get to the gun shop in the first place.

So again, define easy. What do you specifically know about this gun purchase that made it so easy. Keeping in mind--that I can't find anything about what happened at the shop he allegedly bought it from. And I use the word allegedly because only one media outlet is claiming he legally bought the gun.

cowboycwr said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

---

You are begging the question

---

Actually you are.

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.

I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.

Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?

Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)

So again--define easy.

---

See post above on how he got the gun/ guns. Bought legally in 2016 and 2018.

---

You posted while I was posting. Based on this info--the man waited somewhere between 6 months and 3 years to use his guns. That's way longer than the 10 day waiting period that's supposed to be the gold standard in effectiveness.

Not only that--if he did something illegal in the last 6 months to 3 years he should have been required to turn the guns in--so maybe our government failed us again (if it is found that he committed a crime in that time period--I have no knowledge that he did).

Or maybe--it's definitive proof that people are responsible for their actions and not their tools (guns). After all--he owned it for 6 months to 3 years before HE did something.

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

---

You are begging the question

---

Actually you are.

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.

I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.

Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?

Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)

So again--define easy.

---

Easy at the point of purchase

---

Exactly what. A lot happens when you buy a gun.
1. Cost--prohibitive for many. So what's easy.
2. The form--yes, it's easy to fill out. They even give you a pen if you didn't bring one. Should we make people provide their own pens? One gun shop I use has you type your information in--maybe that's what makes it too easy.
3. But once you fill out the form--things are no longer in your hands:
a. a gun dealer can decline a sale at any time for any reason (even if the form comes back approved).
b. the ATF checks you out. Sometimes they send back a hold. If they do this, there is nothing you can do. You are not getting a gun for the next 3 days.
4. Which brings us to how does one get to the gun shop in the first place.

So again, define easy. What do you specifically know about this gun purchase that made it so easy. Keeping in mind--that I can't find anything about what happened at the shop he allegedly bought it from. And I use the word allegedly because only one media outlet is claiming he legally bought the gun.

---

Some good points. I would also add in

1. Some states have waiting periods after buying before you can pick up gun

2. Age requirements for buying a gun, handgun or rifle

So Waco the ball is in your hands now to explain how it is easy. Both oso and I have pointed out how it isn't easy and how the guns were bought legally several years apart.

El Oso said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

---

You are begging the question

---

Actually you are.

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.

I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.

Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?

Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)

So again--define easy.

---

See post above on how he got the gun/ guns. Bought legally in 2016 and 2018.

---

You posted while I was posting. Based on this info--the man waited somewhere between 6 months and 3 years to use his guns. That's way longer than the 10 day waiting period that's supposed to be the gold standard in effectiveness.

Not only that--if he did something illegal in the last 6 months to 3 years he should have been required to turn the guns in--so maybe our government failed us again (if it is found that he committed a crime in that time period--I have no knowledge that he did).

Or maybe--it's definitive proof that people are responsible for their actions and not their tools (guns). After all--he owned it for 6 months to 3 years before HE did something.

---

Good points. Even a 10 day waiting period to pick up the gun would have meant nothing if he bought them months or years ago.

cowboycwr said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.

---

Define easy.

Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.

---

You are begging the question

---

Actually you are.

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.

I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.

Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?

Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)

So again--define easy.

---

Easy at the point of purchase

---

Exactly what. A lot happens when you buy a gun.
1. Cost--prohibitive for many. So what's easy.
2. The form--yes, it's easy to fill out. They even give you a pen if you didn't bring one. Should we make people provide their own pens? One gun shop I use has you type your information in--maybe that's what makes it too easy.
3. But once you fill out the form--things are no longer in your hands:
a. a gun dealer can decline a sale at any time for any reason (even if the form comes back approved).
b. the ATF checks you out. Sometimes they send back a hold. If they do this, there is nothing you can do. You are not getting a gun for the next 3 days.
4. Which brings us to how does one get to the gun shop in the first place.

So again, define easy. What do you specifically know about this gun purchase that made it so easy. Keeping in mind--that I can't find anything about what happened at the shop he allegedly bought it from. And I use the word allegedly because only one media outlet is claiming he legally bought the gun.

---

Some good points. I would also add in

1. Some states have waiting periods after buying before you can pick up gun

2. Age requirements for buying a gun, handgun or rifle

So Waco the ball is in your hands now to explain how it is easy. Both oso and I have pointed out how it isn't easy and how the guns were bought legally several years apart.

---

I'm sorry but no. The ball is in your court. Why aren't the current laws working?

Waco1947 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"Gun safety begins, then, not with technical fixes, but with spreading the truthful information: people who bring guns into their homes are endangering themselves and their loved ones." David Frum
Once again 11 dead

---

Explain this to me one more time using this real life scenario I just experienced. It wasn't in my home, but there were thousands of people there, so in theory--it should have been a bigger problem than in my home where there are less than 10 (most of the time).

Yesterday was Richardson ISD graduation. My daughter knows some kids in the Richardson High School class of 2019 and she secured a ticket to attend. I dropped her off.

About 10:40 last night I picked her up. I was carrying a full size 9mm pistol with 17 rounds in the gun and an extra mag of 16 in my pocket. (The bullets I use are the exact same caliber and make that Richardson PD use.) The gun was concealed under my t-shirt. (All perfectly legal as long as I did not enter the venue--which I did not do or even attempt to do.)

As I waited, I took so many pictures of celebrating families, I lost count. Not a single person saw me as a scary individual. In fact, not a single person even noticed I had a gun. (Or if they did, they did not point it out to me or any of the half dozen cops milling around outside--and if they did, the cops never came and talked to me.) I take all of that to mean--not a single person knew and/or cared that a man (99% of them didn't know--I have taught a few of those kids) had a gun (that they didn't know about) standing in their midst.

I didn't touch the gun--not even to adjust it on my belt.

So I have some questions:
1. How was I a danger to myself or others? Be specific. Don't generalize. Give me an actionable example of me and others being in danger.
"You shoot your dick off because you lose focus and accidentally shoot yourself. You are fallible."

2. I wasn't the only person armed last night. As I pointed out, there were about 12 police officers split up between traffic duty and security. Were their guns introducing danger or just mine? "All of you were introducing danger. You were surrounded by fallible human beings."

3. If just mine, what's the difference between a cop bringing a gun and a background cleared citizen bringing a gun? In Texas, LTC holders are statistically less likely to commit a crime than a police officer--by a lot. "Probably but you were in front of me I knew nothing of your background you would be a perceived danger to me. I have know way knowing of if are a licensed, trained or sane. I don't have ESP."

4. If we're both introducing danger into the situation, why doesn't your gun control argument call for the police to turn in their weapons as well? There were 6 of them (possibly more as I did not go inside) and 1 of me. The danger exponent from them had to be off the charts right? When I landed in Minneapolis, MN on Thursday morning, there were police officers walking the concourse with AR-15's slung over their shoulder, down their chest, pointed at the floor and their fingers next to the trigger. Was I really in mortal danger--or was I actually safer because I did not take my gun on this trip because I went with a bunch of anti-gun people and left my gun at home and was now adequately protected by the police in case something happened? ""'Mortal danger' is your word not mine. Again I have a certain level of faith in armed officers because of their uniforms and training. I have no reason to have faith in you if you are standing in front of me with a gun on your belt. Why should I trust a stranger?"

5. And why can't the government lead by example and turn in their weapons first? "Because it is their job to protect us not yours. You can protect your family but I have no need of your gun around me. I will take my chances with the police."

---

---

And your response Oso?