Baylor Chapel and False Teaching

9,044 Views | 280 Replies | Last: 3 mo ago by TexasScientist
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Booray said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

She claims to be Christian.
David Koresh claimed you be the Messiah
Trump claims to be honest
MSNBC claims to be fair

Boo, do you see any problem here?
I know that Koresh was crazy and Trump was a liar based on watching them talk and act. (I don't watch MSNBC much but have never heard them proclaim themselves as "fair"; Ithink they would acknowledge a liberal bent. Maybe you were confused and meant to say Fox claims itself to be fair--it is part of their slogan.)

How much do you know about her faith? How much do you know about what she actually said at Chapel? I actually don't know very much about that at all. I know what a couple of zealot students say she said, which is a very different thing from knowing what she actually said.

My quick review of her website and blog would tell me that her theology is pretty close to that held by many of our founding fathers-Christian deists like Adams, Jefferson and Washington. I would hope those three would be welcome at Baylor Chapel.
I don't know why this is so difficult. Anyone who prays to "Mother Mystery" is simply not a Christian.

Adams, Jefferson, and Washington would be most welcome at chapel, that is unless they too begin with a prayer like that.
BaylorFTW
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Booray said:


My quick review of her website and blog would tell me that her theology is pretty close to that held by many of our founding fathers-Christian deists like Adams, Jefferson and Washington. I would hope those three would be welcome at Baylor Chapel.
The Founding Fathers is a proper noun referring to the delegates to the Constitutional Convention. This was made up of a core 55 people. Of this group that is a matter of public record, you had 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 Unknown and 3 Deists (Williamson, Wilson and Franklin). This means that 51 of the 55 or a full 93% were Christians, not deists. Thomas Jefferson was a deist who did not attend as was Patrick Henry, John Adams, Samuel Adams, John Hancock and Richard Henry Lee.

Also, in 1776, 99.8% of the people in America claimed to be Christians with 98% being Protestants. By listing the few deists that you have, you give an unfair picture of what the founding fathers were. Clearly, 93% of the Founding Fathers were Christians and not deists. Even Jefferson was a bit of an odd duck too as he had a NT made without the miracles so it would seem he was closer to being a Christian than his deist label might first suggest. And I was just looking at an excerpt that casts doubt about Richard Henry Lee being a deist and that he was really a Christian.
Bearitto
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Booray said:

Bearitto said:

Booray said:

Bearitto said:

Booray said:

Bearitto said:

quash said:

Bearitto said:

quash said:

Bearitto said:

quash said:

Bearitto said:

At a minimum, antiChristian, racist, leftist speeches should not be mandatory. If you'd like to host this kind of so-called thought at the university, students should be able to choose to attend or not.
It is not a semester long course in paganism: it was one talk. Any student could choose to skip or even walk out without sanction. Just exercise your right to not be there.

Honestly, do y'all really think this one talk is going to corrupt the student body? Y'all are effectively calling them snowflakes. I trust these young adults to know how to handle what is essentially a really weird point of view. The dangerous stuff is what comes in looking like orthodoxy.


It's a mandatory course. This is inappropriate for a mandatory course.
Depends on how narrowly you want to define inappropriate. I had a classmate ask my OT prof "Do you believe in the bible?" because the student interpreted something in class as inappropriate. It led to a discussion, not a meltdown.


That's a very weak analogy. I'm embarrassed for you.
OT was mandatory. Somebody heard inappropriate content. Pretty on the nose, but you do you.


The purpose of this was explicitly the dissemination of racist, AntiChristian propaganda. This was not a byproduct. It was the feature. Your analogy is a miserable failure. I continue to be embarrassed for you.
How was it anti-christian?

Do we call Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or Atheist "anti-christian" because they don't believe as we do?

How was it racist?

If she just pointed out the manner and effect of European colonization of North America, I do not see that as "racist," just history.

Took a look at her website:

https://kaitlincurtice.com/

She grew up Evangelical Southern Baptist and still refers to "God" quite a bit. 5 minutes scanning her blog and I think she is of the mind that Christ's ethics are ideal and a manifestation of a greater power, but that Jesus was not himself divine. But I might have that wrong.


A Christian praying to Jesus in a Mosque would be anti-Islam in exactly the same way she is antiChristian. I'm sorry you don't understand this.

The very notion of "decolonization" is racism on its face. You probably are more used to hearing "go back to Africa" as an example of this.
You are an angry elf.

The woman identifies as a Christian, the fact that she expresses it differently than you believe doesn't make her anti-Christian.

As to decolonization, I don't trust in the least the Young Conservatives description of her speech, just as I wouldn't trust a Young Liberals description of a Rush LImbaugh speech. Zealots tend to not get it right.
The idea of indigenous people's decolonization rarely involves a political overthrow.

I found this conversation from her about decolonization:

Kaitlin: In America, we can't ever go back to what once was before we were colonized. We have conversations about reparations, how do we return the land, how do we do these things? I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that every day any person can do any small thing or large thing to help breakdown systems of colonization.


On a larger scale let's talk about in the church our mission's frameworks and how they are actually colonizing people all over the world. Let's be honest about that. On a smaller level, let's make sure that our kids' libraries are diverse and have different stories in them. On another level, let's make sure that we're not repeating toxic stereotypes for Native people.

If she wants us to be aware of the harm Western Culture can impose for the purpose of mitigating that harm, that is a conversation worthy of any Christian chapel. Western culture gives far more benefit than harm, but pretending perfection doesn't speak well for us. Strikes me that the most probable story here is that the YCT are in fact snowflakes easily triggered by any criticism of Western traditions.


Facts aren't emotionally charged things. My stating them doesn't demonstrate anger in any way. I do understand why you are attempting to deflect. It must be difficult to post from behind that 8 ball.
As you know and are yourself deflecting from, my reference was to:

I'm sorry you don't understand this and You probably are more used to hearing "go back to Africa" as an example of this, neither of which are "facts."

Back to your safe space!


The reference to "go back to Africa" was an exact analog to calls for 'decolonization'. As you didn't understand that, I'm sure you'll admit now that everything I posted was indeed a fact.
Born_A_Bear
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Any truth to this report regarding chapel Feb 12?


https://www.facebook.com/288369236635/posts/10157919420306636/





Has anyone seen this video to confirm if she prayed to Mother Mystery?
BaylorFTW
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Born_A_Bear said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Any truth to this report regarding chapel Feb 12?


https://www.facebook.com/288369236635/posts/10157919420306636/





Has anyone seen this video to confirm if she prayed to Mother Mystery?
https://vimeo.com/391143575

It is at around the 15:25 minute mark.
quash
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Booray said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

She claims to be Christian.
David Koresh claimed you be the Messiah
Trump claims to be honest
MSNBC claims to be fair

Boo, do you see any problem here?
I know that Koresh was crazy and Trump was a liar based on watching them talk and act. (I don't watch MSNBC much but have never heard them proclaim themselves as "fair"; Ithink they would acknowledge a liberal bent. Maybe you were confused and meant to say Fox claims itself to be fair--it is part of their slogan.)

How much do you know about her faith? How much do you know about what she actually said at Chapel? I actually don't know very much about that at all. I know what a couple of zealot students say she said, which is a very different thing from knowing what she actually said.

My quick review of her website and blog would tell me that her theology is pretty close to that held by many of our founding fathers-Christian deists like Adams, Jefferson and Washington. I would hope those three would be welcome at Baylor Chapel.
I don't know why this is so difficult. Anyone who prays to "Mother Mystery" is simply not a Christian.

Adams, Jefferson, and Washington would be most welcome at chapel, that is unless they too begin with a prayer like that.

Took longer than I thought for someone to trot out the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Bearitto
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quash said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Booray said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

She claims to be Christian.
David Koresh claimed you be the Messiah
Trump claims to be honest
MSNBC claims to be fair

Boo, do you see any problem here?
I know that Koresh was crazy and Trump was a liar based on watching them talk and act. (I don't watch MSNBC much but have never heard them proclaim themselves as "fair"; Ithink they would acknowledge a liberal bent. Maybe you were confused and meant to say Fox claims itself to be fair--it is part of their slogan.)

How much do you know about her faith? How much do you know about what she actually said at Chapel? I actually don't know very much about that at all. I know what a couple of zealot students say she said, which is a very different thing from knowing what she actually said.

My quick review of her website and blog would tell me that her theology is pretty close to that held by many of our founding fathers-Christian deists like Adams, Jefferson and Washington. I would hope those three would be welcome at Baylor Chapel.
I don't know why this is so difficult. Anyone who prays to "Mother Mystery" is simply not a Christian.

Adams, Jefferson, and Washington would be most welcome at chapel, that is unless they too begin with a prayer like that.

Took longer than I thought for someone to trot out the No True Scotsman fallacy.


You don't seem to understand what that means. A person claiming a particular belief system mandating no other gods, who then openly prays to another god, is definitionally not an adherent of that belief system.

Are you one of those people who "trots out" accusations of fallacies as a substitute for reasoned argument? It would seem to me a more productive use of time would be you demonstrating, in your own Christian viewpoint, how she is an adherent while worshipping other gods.
LIB,MR BEARS
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Bearitto said:

quash said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Booray said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

She claims to be Christian.
David Koresh claimed you be the Messiah
Trump claims to be honest
MSNBC claims to be fair

Boo, do you see any problem here?
I know that Koresh was crazy and Trump was a liar based on watching them talk and act. (I don't watch MSNBC much but have never heard them proclaim themselves as "fair"; Ithink they would acknowledge a liberal bent. Maybe you were confused and meant to say Fox claims itself to be fair--it is part of their slogan.)

How much do you know about her faith? How much do you know about what she actually said at Chapel? I actually don't know very much about that at all. I know what a couple of zealot students say she said, which is a very different thing from knowing what she actually said.

My quick review of her website and blog would tell me that her theology is pretty close to that held by many of our founding fathers-Christian deists like Adams, Jefferson and Washington. I would hope those three would be welcome at Baylor Chapel.
I don't know why this is so difficult. Anyone who prays to "Mother Mystery" is simply not a Christian.

Adams, Jefferson, and Washington would be most welcome at chapel, that is unless they too begin with a prayer like that.

Took longer than I thought for someone to trot out the No True Scotsman fallacy.


You don't seem to understand what that means. A person claiming a particular belief system mandating no other gods, who then openly prays to another god, is definitionally not an adherent of that belief system.

Are you one of those people who "trots out" accusations of fallacies as a substitute for reasoned argument? It would seem to me a more productive use of time would be you demonstrating, in your own Christian viewpoint, how she is an adherent while worshipping other gods.

Quash: no true thinker

Quash is still angry at the god he doesn't believe exist. That's why he rails against God so much here
Aliceinbubbleland
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Does he really rail against God or just those people who think they know everything about live after?
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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You folks all need to just relax. Remember, our Prez is an Okie State Cowboy. They don't do religion.
MANSA - "Make America Not Scared Again!"
Bearitto
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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

You folks all need to just relax. Remember, our Prez is an Okie State Cowboy. They don't do religion.


This sad event does demonstrate one of two things:

A. The Livingstone administration endorses anti-Christian propaganda

Or

B. The Livingstone administration is so weak, leftist anti-Christian faculty and staff know they can get away with anything
LIB,MR BEARS
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Bearitto said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

You folks all need to just relax. Remember, our Prez is an Okie State Cowboy. They don't do religion.


This sad event does demonstrate one of two things:

A. The Livingstone administration endorses anti-Christian propaganda

Or

B. The Livingstone administration is so weak, leftist anti-Christian faculty and staff know they can get away with anything
B
Aliceinbubbleland
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Bearitto said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

You folks all need to just relax. Remember, our Prez is an Okie State Cowboy. They don't do religion.


This sad event does demonstrate one of two things:

A. The Livingstone administration endorses anti-Christian propaganda

Or

B. The Livingstone administration is so weak, leftist anti-Christian faculty and staff know they can get away with anything
B
Hilarious. I was thinking she was pretty much just an office holder at the discretion of the BOD. We need leadership, fund raising and sound academics. Some of you apparently want a high cost Sunday School.

I was just thinking of the good looking president at UH, Renu Khator. They are progressive and getting ready to open a new medical school. UH has transformed rapidly into higher education circles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renu_Khator
Bearitto
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Aliceinbubbleland said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Bearitto said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

You folks all need to just relax. Remember, our Prez is an Okie State Cowboy. They don't do religion.


This sad event does demonstrate one of two things:

A. The Livingstone administration endorses anti-Christian propaganda

Or

B. The Livingstone administration is so weak, leftist anti-Christian faculty and staff know they can get away with anything
B
Hilarious. I was thinking she was pretty much just an office holder at the discretion of the BOD. We need leadership, fund raising and sound academics. Some of you apparently want a high cost Sunday School.

I was just thinking of the good looking president at UH, Renu Khator. They are progressive and getting ready to open a new medical school. UH has transformed rapidly into higher education circles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renu_Khator



You appear to believe that a University can't be religious and academically rigorous. That is incorrect. One doesn't need to make Faustian bargains to be successful.
curtpenn
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quash said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Booray said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

She claims to be Christian.
David Koresh claimed you be the Messiah
Trump claims to be honest
MSNBC claims to be fair

Boo, do you see any problem here?
I know that Koresh was crazy and Trump was a liar based on watching them talk and act. (I don't watch MSNBC much but have never heard them proclaim themselves as "fair"; Ithink they would acknowledge a liberal bent. Maybe you were confused and meant to say Fox claims itself to be fair--it is part of their slogan.)

How much do you know about her faith? How much do you know about what she actually said at Chapel? I actually don't know very much about that at all. I know what a couple of zealot students say she said, which is a very different thing from knowing what she actually said.

My quick review of her website and blog would tell me that her theology is pretty close to that held by many of our founding fathers-Christian deists like Adams, Jefferson and Washington. I would hope those three would be welcome at Baylor Chapel.
I don't know why this is so difficult. Anyone who prays to "Mother Mystery" is simply not a Christian.

Adams, Jefferson, and Washington would be most welcome at chapel, that is unless they too begin with a prayer like that.

Took longer than I thought for someone to trot out the No True Scotsman fallacy.
No. At no time in orthodox Christian thought or practice would an invocation of "Mother Mystery" be considered as a Christian expression. Try again.
Sam Lowry
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Booray said:

Bearitto said:

Booray said:

Bearitto said:

quash said:

Bearitto said:

quash said:

Bearitto said:

quash said:

Bearitto said:

At a minimum, antiChristian, racist, leftist speeches should not be mandatory. If you'd like to host this kind of so-called thought at the university, students should be able to choose to attend or not.
It is not a semester long course in paganism: it was one talk. Any student could choose to skip or even walk out without sanction. Just exercise your right to not be there.

Honestly, do y'all really think this one talk is going to corrupt the student body? Y'all are effectively calling them snowflakes. I trust these young adults to know how to handle what is essentially a really weird point of view. The dangerous stuff is what comes in looking like orthodoxy.


It's a mandatory course. This is inappropriate for a mandatory course.
Depends on how narrowly you want to define inappropriate. I had a classmate ask my OT prof "Do you believe in the bible?" because the student interpreted something in class as inappropriate. It led to a discussion, not a meltdown.


That's a very weak analogy. I'm embarrassed for you.
OT was mandatory. Somebody heard inappropriate content. Pretty on the nose, but you do you.


The purpose of this was explicitly the dissemination of racist, AntiChristian propaganda. This was not a byproduct. It was the feature. Your analogy is a miserable failure. I continue to be embarrassed for you.
How was it anti-christian?

Do we call Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or Atheist "anti-christian" because they don't believe as we do?

How was it racist?

If she just pointed out the manner and effect of European colonization of North America, I do not see that as "racist," just history.

Took a look at her website:

https://kaitlincurtice.com/

She grew up Evangelical Southern Baptist and still refers to "God" quite a bit. 5 minutes scanning her blog and I think she is of the mind that Christ's ethics are ideal and a manifestation of a greater power, but that Jesus was not himself divine. But I might have that wrong.


A Christian praying to Jesus in a Mosque would be anti-Islam in exactly the same way she is antiChristian. I'm sorry you don't understand this.

The very notion of "decolonization" is racism on its face. You probably are more used to hearing "go back to Africa" as an example of this.
As to decolonization, I don't trust in the least the Young Conservatives description of her speech, just as I wouldn't trust a Young Liberals description of a Rush LImbaugh speech. Zealots tend to not get it right.
The idea of indigenous people's decolonization rarely involves a political overthrow.
Rarely...except in Haiti, Morocco, Algeria, Madagascar, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, South Africa, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Korea, China, Philippines, Indonesia, etc., etc.
Sam Lowry
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quash said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Booray said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

She claims to be Christian.
David Koresh claimed you be the Messiah
Trump claims to be honest
MSNBC claims to be fair

Boo, do you see any problem here?
I know that Koresh was crazy and Trump was a liar based on watching them talk and act. (I don't watch MSNBC much but have never heard them proclaim themselves as "fair"; Ithink they would acknowledge a liberal bent. Maybe you were confused and meant to say Fox claims itself to be fair--it is part of their slogan.)

How much do you know about her faith? How much do you know about what she actually said at Chapel? I actually don't know very much about that at all. I know what a couple of zealot students say she said, which is a very different thing from knowing what she actually said.

My quick review of her website and blog would tell me that her theology is pretty close to that held by many of our founding fathers-Christian deists like Adams, Jefferson and Washington. I would hope those three would be welcome at Baylor Chapel.
I don't know why this is so difficult. Anyone who prays to "Mother Mystery" is simply not a Christian.

Adams, Jefferson, and Washington would be most welcome at chapel, that is unless they too begin with a prayer like that.

Took longer than I thought for someone to trot out the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Longer than you know!
Sam Lowry
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Aliceinbubbleland said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Bearitto said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

You folks all need to just relax. Remember, our Prez is an Okie State Cowboy. They don't do religion.


This sad event does demonstrate one of two things:

A. The Livingstone administration endorses anti-Christian propaganda

Or

B. The Livingstone administration is so weak, leftist anti-Christian faculty and staff know they can get away with anything
B
Hilarious. I was thinking she was pretty much just an office holder at the discretion of the BOD. We need leadership, fund raising and sound academics. Some of you apparently want a high cost Sunday School.
The issue is bigger than Sunday school or the beliefs of any particular religious faction. Most posters on this board are either in some religious camp, with a worldview based on divine revelation, or they're modern children of the Enlightenment, with a worldview based on rationality and impartial pursuit of truth. What's now known as leftist postmodernism is neither of the above. Its adherents will participate in both discourses, but their ultimate pursuit is power, not truth. No modern philosophy or society has proven able to withstand this force. Europe was destroyed by it, and the destruction began in the universities and political youth movements. You can see the same thing beginning here in America if you know what you're looking at.
quash
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Bearitto said:

quash said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Booray said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

She claims to be Christian.
David Koresh claimed you be the Messiah
Trump claims to be honest
MSNBC claims to be fair

Boo, do you see any problem here?
I know that Koresh was crazy and Trump was a liar based on watching them talk and act. (I don't watch MSNBC much but have never heard them proclaim themselves as "fair"; Ithink they would acknowledge a liberal bent. Maybe you were confused and meant to say Fox claims itself to be fair--it is part of their slogan.)

How much do you know about her faith? How much do you know about what she actually said at Chapel? I actually don't know very much about that at all. I know what a couple of zealot students say she said, which is a very different thing from knowing what she actually said.

My quick review of her website and blog would tell me that her theology is pretty close to that held by many of our founding fathers-Christian deists like Adams, Jefferson and Washington. I would hope those three would be welcome at Baylor Chapel.
I don't know why this is so difficult. Anyone who prays to "Mother Mystery" is simply not a Christian.

Adams, Jefferson, and Washington would be most welcome at chapel, that is unless they too begin with a prayer like that.

Took longer than I thought for someone to trot out the No True Scotsman fallacy.


You don't seem to understand what that means. A person claiming a particular belief system mandating no other gods, who then openly prays to another god, is definitionally not an adherent of that belief system.

Are you one of those people who "trots out" accusations of fallacies as a substitute for reasoned argument? It would seem to me a more productive use of time would be you demonstrating, in your own Christian viewpoint, how she is an adherent while worshipping other gods.

Quash: no true thinker

Quash is still angry at the god he doesn't believe exist. That's why he rails against God so much here

Rail against God? *** are you referring to?
quash
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Meanwhile, back to the thread.

Spoke to a Baylor religion Prof today who said that this topic will be discussed in his class on Monday; they had a test Friday.

That's how to handle this responsibly.
Sam Lowry
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quash said:

Meanwhile, back to the thread.

Spoke to a Baylor religion Prof today who said that this topic will be discussed in his class on Monday; they had a test Friday.

That's how to handle this responsibly.
Great, but how's he going to fit the whole chapel audience into one classroom?
quash
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Sam Lowry said:

quash said:

Meanwhile, back to the thread.

Spoke to a Baylor religion Prof today who said that this topic will be discussed in his class on Monday; they had a test Friday.

That's how to handle this responsibly.
Great, but how's he going to fit the whole chapel audience into one classroom?

I didn't talk to every Prof at Baylor. And I don't think every student requires a discussion to get over this
3rd String Kicker
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Below is a post from a Baylor employee who is also the wife of a longtime local southern Baptist pastor. I trust what she says about her friend. Some of you need to stop the rush to judgement that is all-too-regular in our society.


A friend of mine, Kaitlin Curtice, spoke this week at Baylor's chapel service. I have been so excited about her coming to this campus, I looked forward to seeing her face so I could just talk to another Native Christian who understands what I go through we aren't rare, I just don't have any here in Waco. My time with her was treasured and I look forward to seeing her again.

I watched her live and she did such a great job speaking. I am grateful to the chapel staff at Baylor for giving a platform to a female Native Christian. I don't think you know how uncommon that is. She shared excerpts from her book that is coming out in May (her story) and she prayed poetic prayers from her first book, Glory Happening. She spoke on some of the same Native concerns you will find on my feed or I vocalize if asked. As I have experienced in my DM's and conversations, Nativeness being talked about is not always appreciated. In fact many times my words are dismissed or defenses are raised so quickly it reveals they weren't listening to me, just hearing me. The terms and words Native Americans use are not always preferred by the majority. I/we know this, yet I/we still keep sharing.

Kaitlin's personal story and prayers were promoted to social media and the local media as "weird, to me" "non-Christian" and "pagan."

The space many Native Christians navigate is often misunderstood and too often brings out the worst of fragility or racism, by other Christians. I have experienced it and I am watching it happen this week to Kaitlin, on a large scale. I saw the ignorance of a student go so far as to lie about a prayer from a Christian and called a sister in Christ a pagan. I watched a news outlet take this student and his political group's word as fact and air a story about how a prayer to "Mother Mystery" was prayed at Baylor. I watched a local pastor, previous regent, back that story up with he "knows Baylor will do the right thing" (????). Clearly these people didn't bother to watch/rewatch the service, nor did the media.

I am emotionally watching online as a sister in Christ and Native American is called the worst of things, and the atrocities our people have experienced have become memes and hate filled messages toward her. So hateful her husband is having to filter her social media platforms. TOWARD A SISTER IN CHRIST. Christians.we are called to be better than this.

The student that has made this outcry misheard the very first line and while he focused on 'this must be pagan,' he missed a beautiful prayer to God. The opening line in the "controversial" prayer that Kaitlin read is "Oh God of Mystery".in chapel she said "Oh Mystery" -- not Mother Mystery. << she may have assumed in a Christian chapel service she could say Oh Mystery (God would be assumed). She may have assumed since she it had been already stated she was a Christian that it would be assumed she's speaking to God, not to a god. The words below that have been described as pagan by so many online, have become a re-focus for me to this week.

Oh God of mystery,
If we have tried to place you in a box,
break it.
No mold can hold you.
We search the surface of the earth
to understand you,
because we are your imprint.
But we cannot understand.
Only the kind glimpses
you give us can suffice.
And indeed they are everything we need.
Teach us to look out to your bigness.
to fall freely into your Holy Abyss,
into your depths,
where we see more glimpses of Kingdom things.
It's safe and good there,
and it is where we long to be.
Bring us to you,
the One who is
not here or there,
not this or that.
We do not even understand
how we long for you,
how we burn in our bones
for your presence.
It is simply our need.
Pull us closer still.
Amen.
Osodecentx
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3rd String Kicker said:

Below is a post from a Baylor employee who is also the wife of a longtime local southern Baptist pastor. I trust what she says about her friend. Some of you need to stop the rush to judgement that is all-too-regular in our society.


A friend of mine, Kaitlin Curtice, spoke this week at Baylor's chapel service. I have been so excited about her coming to this campus, I looked forward to seeing her face so I could just talk to another Native Christian who understands what I go through we aren't rare, I just don't have any here in Waco. My time with her was treasured and I look forward to seeing her again.

I watched her live and she did such a great job speaking. I am grateful to the chapel staff at Baylor for giving a platform to a female Native Christian. I don't think you know how uncommon that is. She shared excerpts from her book that is coming out in May (her story) and she prayed poetic prayers from her first book, Glory Happening. She spoke on some of the same Native concerns you will find on my feed or I vocalize if asked. As I have experienced in my DM's and conversations, Nativeness being talked about is not always appreciated. In fact many times my words are dismissed or defenses are raised so quickly it reveals they weren't listening to me, just hearing me. The terms and words Native Americans use are not always preferred by the majority. I/we know this, yet I/we still keep sharing.

Kaitlin's personal story and prayers were promoted to social media and the local media as "weird, to me" "non-Christian" and "pagan."

The space many Native Christians navigate is often misunderstood and too often brings out the worst of fragility or racism, by other Christians. I have experienced it and I am watching it happen this week to Kaitlin, on a large scale. I saw the ignorance of a student go so far as to lie about a prayer from a Christian and called a sister in Christ a pagan. I watched a news outlet take this student and his political group's word as fact and air a story about how a prayer to "Mother Mystery" was prayed at Baylor. I watched a local pastor, previous regent, back that story up with he "knows Baylor will do the right thing" (????). Clearly these people didn't bother to watch/rewatch the service, nor did the media.

I am emotionally watching online as a sister in Christ and Native American is called the worst of things, and the atrocities our people have experienced have become memes and hate filled messages toward her. So hateful her husband is having to filter her social media platforms. TOWARD A SISTER IN CHRIST. Christians.we are called to be better than this.

The student that has made this outcry misheard the very first line and while he focused on 'this must be pagan,' he missed a beautiful prayer to God. The opening line in the "controversial" prayer that Kaitlin read is "Oh God of Mystery".in chapel she said "Oh Mystery" -- not Mother Mystery. << she may have assumed in a Christian chapel service she could say Oh Mystery (God would be assumed). She may have assumed since she it had been already stated she was a Christian that it would be assumed she's speaking to God, not to a god. The words below that have been described as pagan by so many online, have become a re-focus for me to this week.

Oh God of mystery,
If we have tried to place you in a box,
break it.
No mold can hold you.
We search the surface of the earth
to understand you,
because we are your imprint.
But we cannot understand.
Only the kind glimpses
you give us can suffice.
And indeed they are everything we need.
Teach us to look out to your bigness.
to fall freely into your Holy Abyss,
into your depths,
where we see more glimpses of Kingdom things.
It's safe and good there,
and it is where we long to be.
Bring us to you,
the One who is
not here or there,
not this or that.
We do not even understand
how we long for you,
how we burn in our bones
for your presence.
It is simply our need.
Pull us closer still.
Amen.
Thanks for posting this. It sounds reasonable. Creative people just communicate in a different way (I'm not creative)

Does 'native Christian' mean native American (Indian)?

The bigger topic in my opinion is allowing speakers in Chapel that expose students to different ideas. It should be encouraged. So, I'd allow a pagan to speak, an atheist, even a Democrat. Who knows what light might be shed

Bearitto
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Would you look at that? Someone is trying to justify a racist, pagan, leftist, anti-Christian screed. Again.
BaylorFTW
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Osodecentx said:

Thanks for posting this. It sounds reasonable. Creative people just communicate in a different way (I'm not creative)

Does 'native Christian' mean native American (Indian)?

The bigger topic in my opinion is allowing speakers in Chapel that expose students to different ideas. It should be encouraged. So, I'd allow a pagan to speak, an atheist, even a Democrat. Who knows what light might be shed


Are you a practicing Christian? And if the school took your advice and allowed various other faiths and atheists to speak and this resulted in Christians losing their faith and salvation, how would you reconcile that as a good thing? I can see how that would advance the cause of other faiths, atheism and pluralism but how does that advance the cause of Jesus Christ? Where are examples in the bible where giving a platform to other faiths was viewed as a good idea or moral by God? It is one thing to learn about other religions as a means to defend Christianity against attack or to do so in an effort to help convert people to Christianity but to give them a platform is to suggest that Jesus isn't the way and that all faiths or non faith are as equally just as the gospel of Jesus Christ.
jason_cook
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We have reviewed the video from all three Chapels and I can confirm there was no prayer to "Mother Mystery" as has been alleged.
LIB,MR BEARS
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jason_cook said:

We have reviewed the video from all three Chapels and I can confirm there was no prayer to "Mother Mystery" as has been alleged.
it would have been nice if this were the first post to the original question I asked, "Is there any truth to this?"
BaylorFTW
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

jason_cook said:

We have reviewed the video from all three Chapels and I can confirm there was no prayer to "Mother Mystery" as has been alleged.
it would have been nice if this were the first post to the original question I asked, "Is there any truth to this?"
When I watched her talk, she doesn't say Mother Mystery and says Mystery as in a god she calls Mystery. However, I also got the feeling she was suggesting some type of worship of nature and hence the pagan claims. The charitable way would be to say she is a hippie/free spirit type who was just careless and loose with her words but she certainly was not afraid of taking swipes about colonization and white supremacy after her Mystery God prayer. But reading her twitter feed, it is hard to be so charitable to her as she clearly was trying to cause a controversy.

I wanted to just repost the video of the full speech but Baylor Chapel has now taken it down from vimeo. That is interesting in and of itself. Apparently, they do not want a close inspection of her talk which is odd if she really did nothing wrong. I did notice Baylor Lariat has a video on youtube with a couple snippets of her speech:

Also, worth noting that on Kaitlin Curtice's twitter, she is retweeting tweets and an article that portray her as somehow a victim of wait for it...white male supremacy. She seems to think Baylor even owes her an apology.

https://twitter.com/KaitlinCurtice/

She also tweets bad language at times. For example, while pointing out a facebook post was critical of her speech, she tweets:


"Christians, collect your ****ery."

This tweet is also interesting because it seems to suggest she is not a Christian. But maybe she was just careless with her language yet again.



Another tweet:

If you're new here, thanks for showing up. I believe in upsetting the status quo and chipping away at the foundations of white supremacy this country is built on.

I also live by the capacity of being gentle yet fierce.

Glad you're here.
We've got work to do.



Y'all can read the rest of her twitter feed for yourselves and make up your own minds.


LIB,MR BEARS
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I expect Baylor to have speakers with differing political views, even controversial political views. I've no problem with that.

When it comes to Christianity however, there is a "framework" that should always be there. Can there be differing views on some things? Sure. But, in the words of Alistair Begg, " the plain things are the main things and the main things are the plain things." When we start adding to or taking away from that while teaching, we are misleading others and are creating false gods.

BU needs to be very careful that they choose speakers that have the ability to stay true to the faith while presenting a variety of political views.
Bearitto
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

I expect Baylor to have speakers with differing political views, even controversial political views. I've no problem with that.

When it comes to Christianity however, there is a "framework" that should always be there. Can there be differing views on some things? Sure. But, in the words of Alistair Begg, " the plain things are the main things and the main things are the plain things." When we start adding to or taking away from that while teaching, we are misleading others and are creating false gods.

BU needs to be very careful that they choose speakers that have the ability to stay true to the faith while presenting a variety of political views.


The problem is, it's virtually impossible to be a Christian and a leftist. You can't worship God and government simultaneously.
Osodecentx
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BaylorFTW said:

Osodecentx said:

Thanks for posting this. It sounds reasonable. Creative people just communicate in a different way (I'm not creative)

Does 'native Christian' mean native American (Indian)?

The bigger topic in my opinion is allowing speakers in Chapel that expose students to different ideas. It should be encouraged. So, I'd allow a pagan to speak, an atheist, even a Democrat. Who knows what light might be shed


Are you a practicing Christian? And if the school took your advice and allowed various other faiths and atheists to speak and this resulted in Christians losing their faith and salvation, how would you reconcile that as a good thing? I can see how that would advance the cause of other faiths, atheism and pluralism but how does that advance the cause of Jesus Christ? Where are examples in the bible where giving a platform to other faiths was viewed as a good idea or moral by God? It is one thing to learn about other religions as a means to defend Christianity against attack or to do so in an effort to help convert people to Christianity but to give them a platform is to suggest that Jesus isn't the way and that all faiths or non faith are as equally just as the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I guess my Christianity is robust enough to withstand another POV.

I recommend Evidence That Demands a Verdict by McDowell

Evidence That Demands a Verdict is an easy-to-read, front-line defense for Christians facing the tough questions of critics and skeptics. Using secular evidences and other historical sources, Josh McDowell's faith-building book is a "must read" for every Christian.
jason_cook
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The video has not been removed from the Chapel website: https://www.baylor.edu/spirituallife/index.php?id=870495
BaylorFTW
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Osodecentx said:

BaylorFTW said:

Osodecentx said:

Thanks for posting this. It sounds reasonable. Creative people just communicate in a different way (I'm not creative)

Does 'native Christian' mean native American (Indian)?

The bigger topic in my opinion is allowing speakers in Chapel that expose students to different ideas. It should be encouraged. So, I'd allow a pagan to speak, an atheist, even a Democrat. Who knows what light might be shed


Are you a practicing Christian? And if the school took your advice and allowed various other faiths and atheists to speak and this resulted in Christians losing their faith and salvation, how would you reconcile that as a good thing? I can see how that would advance the cause of other faiths, atheism and pluralism but how does that advance the cause of Jesus Christ? Where are examples in the bible where giving a platform to other faiths was viewed as a good idea or moral by God? It is one thing to learn about other religions as a means to defend Christianity against attack or to do so in an effort to help convert people to Christianity but to give them a platform is to suggest that Jesus isn't the way and that all faiths or non faith are as equally just as the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I guess my Christianity is robust enough to withstand another POV.

I recommend Evidence That Demands a Verdict by McDowell

Evidence That Demands a Verdict is an easy-to-read, front-line defense for Christians facing the tough questions of critics and skeptics. Using secular evidences and other historical sources, Josh McDowell's faith-building book is a "must read" for every Christian.
I have his book but have a number of other books I have to finish first before I can read it. As for different points of view, I don't believe Chapel is the time or place for such things. However, I don't mind views being discussed in the open air or in a classroom. But tell me, would the school have allowed a Klansman, Christian Identity/British Israelism or Black Hebrew Israelite to be able to talk on campus or in Chapel? Because they would all claim they are Christians and wanting to disrupt the status quo as this speaker did. How is it decided which points of view get expressed and which ones are persona non grata?
BaylorFTW
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jason_cook said:

The video has not been removed from the Chapel website: https://www.baylor.edu/spirituallife/index.php?id=870495
Do you work for the administration or are posting at their request?

There is something going on because the prior video link now gets an error message. (https://vimeo.com/391143575) and it is not showing up under all the listed videos https://vimeo.com/baylorchapel Perhaps they changed the settings to make the video private or unlisted? As you say, it does show up on the Chapel website or with the following address pulled from the page source: https://player.vimeo.com/video/391143575

Regardless, for others who are still interested, her speech gets going around the 15:25 minute mark.

https://player.vimeo.com/video/391143575
 
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