I'd be interested in hearing some of the views of pastors and those associated with Truett

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/december/charlie-dates-ralph-west-southern-baptist-sbc-crt.html?fbclid=IwAR3QTr_PMfjFt0qR2wH6v_ljz6nsclb0AIKv0_O6vdiC9v_9ba6wlJo4LK4

A problem is that CRT is a little bit nebulous and I'm not sure there's a standard definition of it. To the best of my understanding, it holds that racism is structurally built into our culture and that nearly all people have it though they may not be conscious of it.

The article above doesn't mention that the motivation for this statement came from SBC politics, which the SBC seems never able to escape. Within the ultra-conservative SBC, there's an even more ultra-conservative movement saying that the seminaries have become too liberal. Those within this movement say that one of the signs of liberalism is the coddling of professors who adhere to CRT.

Also tied with this even more conservative movement is support for Donald Trump.

If you search YouTube, you can find pieces attacking Southern Seminary in particular for CRT ideas.

Also, interestingly, Al Mohler, President of Southern started off as a never-Trumper but converted to Trumpist in the last election.

So what the presidents attempted to do, I guess, was to try to thread a needle by condemning racism while at the same time condemning CRT. They've failed in that effort.

To me, CRT is compatible with conservative evangelical theology, particularly Reformed. We profess that all are sinners and broken, and for that reason our social structures are sinful and broken.

As for Calvinism, it teaches we're still broken after we come to faith in Christ, so we must continually receive God's grace. Putting your faith in Christ and following him brings the Holy Spirit into your life and begins a transformative process. But it win itself doesn't necessarily cure you of racism.

I grew up in churches that passionately proclaimed the gospel each Sunday, while at the same time didn't allow Black people to join. To me, that's proof that gospel proclamation in itself doesn't automatically cure racism.

By this effort to save their skins in the SBC, these presidents have alienated themselves from many Black Christ followers and confirmed in many minds that white conservative evangelicals in general and Southern Baptists in particular are racist.

Christianity and Christ's golden rule are antithetical to the overt and unabashed racism that is CRT. Those 'pastors' are not any more Christian than Stalin was and they are just as political. God save us all if evil men like that get real political power.

Bearitto said:

---

Christianity and Christ's golden rule are antithetical to the overt and unabashed racism that is CRT. Those 'pastors' are not any more Christian than Stalin was and they are just as political. God save us all if evil men like that get real political power.

---

In what way is CRT antithetical to the Golden Rule?

How is pointing out the obvious fact of racism in our culture racist?

George Truett said:

---

A problem is that CRT is a little bit nebulous and I'm not sure there's a standard definition of it. To the best of my understanding, it holds that racism is structurally built into our culture and that nearly all people have it though they may not be conscious of it.

The article above doesn't mention that the motivation for this statement came from SBC politics, which the SBC seems never able to escape. Within the ultra-conservative SBC, there's an even more ultra-conservative movement saying that the seminaries have become too liberal. Those within this movement say that one of the signs of liberalism is the coddling of professors who adhere to CRT.

Also tied with this even more conservative movement is support for Donald Trump.

If you search YouTube, you can find pieces attacking Southern Seminary in particular for CRT ideas.

Also, interestingly, Al Mohler, President of Southern started off as a never-Trumper but converted to Trumpist in the last election.

So what the presidents attempted to do, I guess, was to try to thread a needle by condemning racism while at the same time condemning CRT. They've failed in that effort.

To me, CRT is compatible with conservative evangelical theology, particularly Reformed. We profess that all are sinners and broken, and for that reason our social structures are sinful and broken.

As for Calvinism, it teaches we're still broken after we come to faith in Christ, so we must continually receive God's grace. Putting your faith in Christ and following him brings the Holy Spirit into your life and begins a transformative process. But it win itself doesn't necessarily cure you of racism.

I grew up in churches that passionately proclaimed the gospel each Sunday, while at the same time didn't allow Black people to join. To me, that's proof that gospel proclamation in itself doesn't automatically cure racism.

By this effort to save their skins in the SBC, these presidents have alienated themselves from many Black Christ followers and confirmed in many minds that white conservative evangelicals in general and Southern Baptists in particular are racist.

---

Thoughtful post
Thanks

George Truett said:

---

Bearitto said:

---

Christianity and Christ's golden rule are antithetical to the overt and unabashed racism that is CRT. Those 'pastors' are not any more Christian than Stalin was and they are just as political. God save us all if evil men like that get real political power.

---

In what way is CRT antithetical to the Golden Rule?

How is pointing out the obvious fact of racism in our culture racist?

---

I think he is referring to West and Bates but I could be wrong.

George Truett said:

---

A problem is that CRT is a little bit nebulous and I'm not sure there's a standard definition of it. To the best of my understanding, it holds that racism is structurally built into our culture and that nearly all people have it though they may not be conscious of it.

The article above doesn't mention that the motivation for this statement came from SBC politics, which the SBC seems never able to escape. Within the ultra-conservative SBC, there's an even more ultra-conservative movement saying that the seminaries have become too liberal. Those within this movement say that one of the signs of liberalism is the coddling of professors who adhere to CRT.

Also tied with this even more conservative movement is support for Donald Trump.

If you search YouTube, you can find pieces attacking Southern Seminary in particular for CRT ideas.

Also, interestingly, Al Mohler, President of Southern started off as a never-Trumper but converted to Trumpist in the last election.

So what the presidents attempted to do, I guess, was to try to thread a needle by condemning racism while at the same time condemning CRT. They've failed in that effort.

To me, CRT is compatible with conservative evangelical theology, particularly Reformed. We profess that all are sinners and broken, and for that reason our social structures are sinful and broken.

As for Calvinism, it teaches we're still broken after we come to faith in Christ, so we must continually receive God's grace. Putting your faith in Christ and following him brings the Holy Spirit into your life and begins a transformative process. But it win itself doesn't necessarily cure you of racism.

I grew up in churches that passionately proclaimed the gospel each Sunday, while at the same time didn't allow Black people to join. To me, that's proof that gospel proclamation in itself doesn't automatically cure racism.

By this effort to save their skins in the SBC, these presidents have alienated themselves from many Black Christ followers and confirmed in many minds that white conservative evangelicals in general and Southern Baptists in particular are racist.

---

First, let me say that I am totally out of my league if this thread starts getting really deep. Second, I think I agree with about 95% of this post. The other 5%? Well until Christ runs for president, I think you can insert any politicians name in place of Trump. As long as there is "progressive sanctification", there will be nits to pick-some nits larger and more irritating than others.

I'm trying to learn. From Wiki:

Critical race theory (CRT)[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDelgado_Bernal2002-1][1][/url] is a theoretical framework in the social sciences that examines society and culture as they relate to categorizations of race, law, and power.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#cite_note-FOOTNOTEYosso2005-2][2][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#cite_note-habermas.org-3][3][/url] It began as a movement in American law schools in the mid- to late 1980s as a reworking of critical legal theory on race issues[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#cite_note-FOOTNOTECole2007-4][4][/url] which itself was introducing new frameworks to the legal field, such as postmodernism, queer theory, and post-colonialism. As the word "critical" suggests, both theoretical frameworks are rooted in critical theory, a social philosophy which argues that social problems are influenced and created more by societal structures and cultural assumptions than by individual and psychological factors. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#cite_note-5][5][/url]
It is loosely unified by two common themes:

• Firstly, that white supremacy exists and exhibits power maintained over time, and, in particular, that the law plays a role in this process.

• Secondly, that transforming the relationship between law and racial power, as well as achieving racial emancipation and anti-subordination more broadly, are possible.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#cite_note-6][6][/url]

By 2002, over 20 American law schools, and at least 3 law schools in other countries, offered critical race theory courses or classes which covered the issue centrally.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHarris2002-7][7][/url] In addition to law, critical race theory is taught and innovated in the fields of education, political science, women's studies, ethnic studies, communication, sociology, and American studies.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDelgadoStefancic20126%E2%80%937-8][8][/url] Important scholars to the theory include Derrick Bell, Patricia Williams, Richard Delgado, Kimberl Williams Crenshaw, Camara Phyllis Jones, and Mari Matsuda.

More from Wiki:

Criticism
Some legal scholars have criticized CRT on a number of grounds, such as CRT scholars' reliance on narrative and storytelling, or CRT's critique of objectivity. Judge Richard Posner of the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has labelled critical race theorists and postmodernists as the "lunatic core" of "radical legal egalitarianism." He wrote:

Quote:

---

What is most arresting about critical race theory is thatit turns its back on the Western tradition of rational inquiry, forswearing analysis for narrative. Rather than marshal logical arguments and empirical data, critical race theorists tell stories fictional, science-fictional, quasi-fictional, autobiographical, anecdotal designed to expose the pervasive and debilitating racism of America today. By repudiating reasoned argumentation, the storytellers reinforce stereotypes about the intellectual capacities of nonwhites.

---

Judge Alex Kozinski of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals wrote that critical race theorists have constructed a philosophy which makes a valid exchange of ideas between the various disciplines unattainable:

Quote:

---

The radical multiculturalists' views raise insuperable barriers to mutual understanding. Consider the "Space Traders" story. How does one have a meaningful dialogue with Derrick Bell? Because his thesis is utterly untestable, one quickly reaches a dead end after either accepting or rejecting his assertion that white Americans would cheerfully sell all blacks to the aliens. The story is also a poke in the eye of American Jews, particularly those who risked life and limb by actively participating in the civil rights protests of the 1960s. Bell clearly implies that this was done out of tawdry self-interest. Perhaps most galling is Bell's insensitivity in making the symbol of Jewish hypocrisy the little girl who perished in the Holocaust as close to a saint as Jews have. A Jewish professor who invoked the name of Rosa Parks so derisively would be bitterly condemned and rightly so.

---

Daniel Farber and Suzanna Sherry have argued that critical race theory, along with critical feminism and critical legal studies, has anti-Semitic and anti-Asian implications.
Jeffrey J. Pyle wrote in the Boston College Law Review:

Quote:

---

Critical race theorists attack the very foundations of the [classical] liberal legal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism and neutral principles of constitutional law. These liberal values, they allege, have no enduring basis in principle, but are mere social constructs calculated to legitimate white supremacy. The rule of law, according to critical race theorists, is a false promise of principled government, and they have lost patience with false promises.

---

Peter Wood, president of the National Association of Scholars, considers CRT a "grievance ideology" and an "absurdity." He sees the central tenet of "white racism in the American legal system" to be shown false because of items such as the 14th Amendment, the Voting Rights Acts, and Brown v. Board of Education. Critics including George Will saw resonances between CRT's use of storytelling and insistence that race poses challenges to objective judgments in the US, as exemplified by the acquittal of O. J. Simpson.

Oso, the Wiki presentation is somewhat fair, but it shares the weaknesses of such articles. It's not a complete, fair picture.

From a theological perspective, the question is: "Is this compatible with the scriptures and Christian tradition?"

Of course our views of the scriptures and Christian tradition vary according to our backgrounds.

From what I've seen so far, there's nothing in CRT in itself that's incompatible with a conservative view of the scriptures or conservative theology.

CRT has shown us that racism is indeed baked into our culture and law (at least in how the law is applied).

The SBC has a lot of work to do on racism, since it was founded to uphold racism in the form of slavery. It took the SBC about 150 years to confess its sin in this regard.

And as the Black pastors in the article point out, there's not a single person of color in any high denominational position in the SBC. They did have a Black SBC president, but no head of any denominational agency.

I don't know what the remedy is for this. I just know a salvation experience by itself isn't enough to cure the racism in us and that broadly condemning CRT as somehow ungodly doesn't help foster dialogue with the oppressed.

Instead of working on racial dialogue, these seminary leaders to decide to cave to pressure from the even more extreme right to keep their income flowing.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

George Truett said:

---

A problem is that CRT is a little bit nebulous and I'm not sure there's a standard definition of it. To the best of my understanding, it holds that racism is structurally built into our culture and that nearly all people have it though they may not be conscious of it.

The article above doesn't mention that the motivation for this statement came from SBC politics, which the SBC seems never able to escape. Within the ultra-conservative SBC, there's an even more ultra-conservative movement saying that the seminaries have become too liberal. Those within this movement say that one of the signs of liberalism is the coddling of professors who adhere to CRT.

Also tied with this even more conservative movement is support for Donald Trump.

If you search YouTube, you can find pieces attacking Southern Seminary in particular for CRT ideas.

Also, interestingly, Al Mohler, President of Southern started off as a never-Trumper but converted to Trumpist in the last election.

So what the presidents attempted to do, I guess, was to try to thread a needle by condemning racism while at the same time condemning CRT. They've failed in that effort.

To me, CRT is compatible with conservative evangelical theology, particularly Reformed. We profess that all are sinners and broken, and for that reason our social structures are sinful and broken.

As for Calvinism, it teaches we're still broken after we come to faith in Christ, so we must continually receive God's grace. Putting your faith in Christ and following him brings the Holy Spirit into your life and begins a transformative process. But it win itself doesn't necessarily cure you of racism.

I grew up in churches that passionately proclaimed the gospel each Sunday, while at the same time didn't allow Black people to join. To me, that's proof that gospel proclamation in itself doesn't automatically cure racism.

By this effort to save their skins in the SBC, these presidents have alienated themselves from many Black Christ followers and confirmed in many minds that white conservative evangelicals in general and Southern Baptists in particular are racist.

---

First, let me say that I am totally out of my league if this thread starts getting really deep. Second, I think I agree with about 95% of this post. The other 5%? Well until Christ runs for president, I think you can insert any politicians name in place of Trump. As long as there is "progressive sanctification", there will be nits to pick-some nits larger and more irritating than others.

---

Good point. To clarify, my main point is that these professors are under pressure from conservatives even more extreme than they are.

imo there's a much simpler explanation for racism. CRT I don't particularly agree with, but it's definitely true that many people are racist and don't know it. Plenty know it too.

Racism can exist on an institutional level. Look at the GOP removing polling locations in minority neighborhoods. We all know this.

For individuals, racism can be the result of 2 basic human traits we all, every last one of us, share. The fear of difference, and resistance to change. Take Superman for example. What if Superman actually looked like Alien (from the movie), but was just as altruistic and good for humanity? People would be terrified. It's the unknown. But a guy that could destroy the world, has laser eyes, essentially has absolute power over humanity? He looks like us. He's ok, hasn't bitten... yet.

Racism is not purely taught, though often it is. We can be racist without intending it at all, when we encounter cultures, ethnicities, that we don't know about. And of course it's really easy to notice that in a particular area, people that look a certain way, act a certain way, then we've created that stereotype.

Anyways, CRT is a bunch of gobbledynook but that's ok. Whatever helps people sleep. Truth is that we all can be racist, and to never form stereotypes in our own minds, is quite hard. Totally possible though.

TLR version - CRT is just Marxist philosophy with the word "class" replaced with "race," and the word "capitalism" replaced by "white supremacy."

No society which has embraced concepts of systemic oppression and collective guilt has ever emerged the better for it.

The idea that Marxist philosophy can be an aid for a better walk with the Lord is completely illogical except for those who wish to use said ideas to divide Christianity into a squabbling rabble.

Fight wokeness at all cost. It is flawed worldview built on ideas from the ash heap of history and there is no virtue in it at all, much less divinity.

whiterock said:

---

TLR version - CRT is just Marxist philosophy with the word "class" replaced with "race," and the word "capitalism" replaced by "white supremacy."

No society which has embraced concepts of systemic oppression and collective guilt has ever emerged the better for it.

The idea that Marxist philosophy can be an aid for a better walk with the Lord is completely illogical except for those who wish to use said ideas to divide Christianity into a squabbling rabble.

Fight wokeness at all cost. It is flawed worldview built on ideas from the ash heap of history and there is no virtue in it at all, much less divinity.

---

Amen

CRT is one of the most harmful ways to attack racism that ever existed.

CRT "assumes" that I am racist because I am Caucasian. That is the very core of racism....assuming something because of a person's skin color.

CRT does not know me and does not know my heart. Making assumptions about a person's view of other races without knowing that same person is racist.

Are their institutions that are racist.? Well there may be a few, but they are few and far between.

Are there individuals that are racist? Yes, and they come in all colors.

CRT is not the way to achieve racial equality. Application of scripture is.

4yrletterbear said:

---

CRT is one of the most harmful ways to attack racism that ever existed.

CRT "assumes" that I am racist because I am Caucasian. That is the very core of racism....assuming something because of a person's skin color.

CRT does not know me and does not know my heart. Making assumptions about a person's view of other races without knowing that same person is racist.

Are their institutions that are racist.? Well there may be a few, but they are few and far between.

Are there individuals that are racist? Yes, and they come in all colors.

CRT is not the way to achieve racial equality. Application of scripture is.

---

CRT is a worldview ordered by race every bit as much as that which it purports to oppose.

Agreed

CRT seems to favor racial discrimination to cure racial discrimination.

Porteroso said:

---

imo there's a much simpler explanation for racism. CRT I don't particularly agree with, but it's definitely true that many people are racist and don't know it. Plenty know it too.

Racism can exist on an institutional level. Look at the GOP removing polling locations in minority neighborhoods. We all know this.

For individuals, racism can be the result of 2 basic human traits we all, every last one of us, share. The fear of difference, and resistance to change. Take Superman for example. What if Superman actually looked like Alien (from the movie), but was just as altruistic and good for humanity? People would be terrified. It's the unknown. But a guy that could destroy the world, has laser eyes, essentially has absolute power over humanity? He looks like us. He's ok, hasn't bitten... yet.

Racism is not purely taught, though often it is. We can be racist without intending it at all, when we encounter cultures, ethnicities, that we don't know about. And of course it's really easy to notice that in a particular area, people that look a certain way, act a certain way, then we've created that stereotype.

Anyways, CRT is a bunch of gobbledynook but that's ok. Whatever helps people sleep. Truth is that we all can be racist, and to never form stereotypes in our own minds, is quite hard. Totally possible though.

---

Good comments.

Racism is in the air we breathe and aren't really conscious of it. It's like your box of Crayola crayons. What color was "flesh"? White, of course.

whiterock said:

---

TLR version - CRT is just Marxist philosophy with the word "class" replaced with "race," and the word "capitalism" replaced by "white supremacy."

No society which has embraced concepts of systemic oppression and collective guilt has ever emerged the better for it.

The idea that Marxist philosophy can be an aid for a better walk with the Lord is completely illogical except for those who wish to use said ideas to divide Christianity into a squabbling rabble.

Fight wokeness at all cost. It is flawed worldview built on ideas from the ash heap of history and there is no virtue in it at all, much less divinity.

---

This is an interesting misrepresentation of what CRT is.

I'm not sure if you just don't understand CRT or if you're afraid of taking an honest look at oppression because it's too scary.

To be sure, no social theory is a substitute for a walk with the Lord. But I've known many people who were faithful in the church attendance, faithful in tithing, faithful in other spiritual disciplines, but were racist to the core.

The reason for this is their construct of spirituality, which comes from their church community, is badly flawed, and they're not even aware of it.

As I said earlier, the church I grew up in was orthodox and highly evangelistic. But it was thoroughly racist and backed up their racism with scripture. To them, racism wasn't a flaw. It was divinely ordained.

Criticisms like CRT help us understand our blind spots and enable us to overcome them.

And you think Christianity isn't a squabbling rabble at present? Really? The church is terribly divided over every conceivable matter, from the role of women to the practice of tongues, to worship style.

Osodecentx said:

---

CRT seems to favor racial discrimination to cure racial discrimination.

---

No. It doesn't.

It points to the racism built into our culture. It diagnoses the illness.

As to remedy, no movement is uniform in its views for the remedies it calls for. CRT advocates have different ideas on that. But you can't cure a disease by ignoring it.

A story to ponder.

A man hired a person to work in his store for $500 a week. For years, he paid the person only $400 a week.

Years later, the man died, and his son took over the store. The employee approached him with the shortfall, and the son said, "You're right. You've been shorted. From now on, I'm going to pay you $500 a week."

If you were the employee, would that feel like justice to you?

CRT says not only has the short occurred, the short continues to occur.

Working my way through Charles Murray's recent book, Human Diversity. In it, Murray examines the assumptions that gender and race are social constructs, and that class is a function of privilege. He states all three dogmas are half-truths. Interesting reading.

George Truett said:

---

whiterock said:

---

TLR version - CRT is just Marxist philosophy with the word "class" replaced with "race," and the word "capitalism" replaced by "white supremacy."

No society which has embraced concepts of systemic oppression and collective guilt has ever emerged the better for it.

The idea that Marxist philosophy can be an aid for a better walk with the Lord is completely illogical except for those who wish to use said ideas to divide Christianity into a squabbling rabble.

Fight wokeness at all cost. It is flawed worldview built on ideas from the ash heap of history and there is no virtue in it at all, much less divinity.

---

This is an interesting misrepresentation of what CRT is.

I'm not sure if you just don't understand CRT or if you're afraid of taking an honest look at oppression because it's too scary.

To be sure, no social theory is a substitute for a walk with the Lord. But I've known many people who were faithful in the church attendance, faithful in tithing, faithful in other spiritual disciplines, but were racist to the core.

The reason for this is their construct of spirituality, which comes from their church community, is badly flawed, and they're not even aware of it.

As I said earlier, the church I grew up in was orthodox and highly evangelistic. But it was thoroughly racist and backed up their racism with scripture. To them, racism wasn't a flaw. It was divinely ordained.

Criticisms like CRT help us understand our blind spots and enable us to overcome them.

And you think Christianity isn't a squabbling rabble at present? Really? The church is terribly divided over every conceivable matter, from the role of women to the practice of tongues, to worship style.

---

The idea that we are all flawed is 100% accurate. The idea that we are all racist is 100% flawed.

whiterock said:

---

TLR version - CRT is just Marxist philosophy with the word "class" replaced with "race," and the word "capitalism" replaced by "white supremacy."

No society which has embraced concepts of systemic oppression and collective guilt has ever emerged the better for it.

The idea that Marxist philosophy can be an aid for a better walk with the Lord is completely illogical except for those who wish to use said ideas to divide Christianity into a squabbling rabble.

Fight wokeness at all cost. It is flawed worldview built on ideas from the ash heap of history and there is no virtue in it at all, much less divinity.

---

Absolutely right.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

George Truett said:

---

whiterock said:

---

TLR version - CRT is just Marxist philosophy with the word "class" replaced with "race," and the word "capitalism" replaced by "white supremacy."

No society which has embraced concepts of systemic oppression and collective guilt has ever emerged the better for it.

The idea that Marxist philosophy can be an aid for a better walk with the Lord is completely illogical except for those who wish to use said ideas to divide Christianity into a squabbling rabble.

Fight wokeness at all cost. It is flawed worldview built on ideas from the ash heap of history and there is no virtue in it at all, much less divinity.

---

This is an interesting misrepresentation of what CRT is.

I'm not sure if you just don't understand CRT or if you're afraid of taking an honest look at oppression because it's too scary.

To be sure, no social theory is a substitute for a walk with the Lord. But I've known many people who were faithful in the church attendance, faithful in tithing, faithful in other spiritual disciplines, but were racist to the core.

The reason for this is their construct of spirituality, which comes from their church community, is badly flawed, and they're not even aware of it.

As I said earlier, the church I grew up in was orthodox and highly evangelistic. But it was thoroughly racist and backed up their racism with scripture. To them, racism wasn't a flaw. It was divinely ordained.

Criticisms like CRT help us understand our blind spots and enable us to overcome them.

And you think Christianity isn't a squabbling rabble at present? Really? The church is terribly divided over every conceivable matter, from the role of women to the practice of tongues, to worship style.

---

The idea that we are all flawed is 100% accurate. The idea that we are all racist is 100% flawed.

---

That's not exactly what CRT says.

It says racism is systemic in our culture. That's 100% accurate.

curtpenn said:

---

Working my way through Charles Murray's recent book, Human Diversity. In it, Murray examines the assumptions that gender and race are social constructs, and that class is a function of privilege. He states all three dogmas are half-truths. Interesting reading.

---

Not exactly a fair or middle the road scholar.

A radical, actually.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

TLR version - CRT is just Marxist philosophy with the word "class" replaced with "race," and the word "capitalism" replaced by "white supremacy."

No society which has embraced concepts of systemic oppression and collective guilt has ever emerged the better for it.

The idea that Marxist philosophy can be an aid for a better walk with the Lord is completely illogical except for those who wish to use said ideas to divide Christianity into a squabbling rabble.

Fight wokeness at all cost. It is flawed worldview built on ideas from the ash heap of history and there is no virtue in it at all, much less divinity.

---

Absolutely right.

---

Completely wrong for all the reasons listed above.

George Truett said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

TLR version - CRT is just Marxist philosophy with the word "class" replaced with "race," and the word "capitalism" replaced by "white supremacy."

No society which has embraced concepts of systemic oppression and collective guilt has ever emerged the better for it.

The idea that Marxist philosophy can be an aid for a better walk with the Lord is completely illogical except for those who wish to use said ideas to divide Christianity into a squabbling rabble.

Fight wokeness at all cost. It is flawed worldview built on ideas from the ash heap of history and there is no virtue in it at all, much less divinity.

---

Absolutely right.

---

Completely wrong for all the reasons listed above.

---

What do you think is the difference between traditional theory and critical theory?

I just read a multi-page article on CRT and it seemed mostly about theory and problem identification. Have the CRT proponents proposed specific solutions to the theoretical problems identified? I prefer to read and debate about potential solutions. I find that in trying to solve problems the true problem becomes more identifiable.

George Truett said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

CRT seems to favor racial discrimination to cure racial discrimination.

---

No. It doesn't.

It points to the racism built into our culture. It diagnoses the illness.

As to remedy, no movement is uniform in its views for the remedies it calls for. CRT advocates have different ideas on that. But you can't cure a disease by ignoring it.

A story to ponder.

A man hired a person to work in his store for $500 a week. For years, he paid the person only $400 a week.

Years later, the man died, and his son took over the store. The employee approached him with the shortfall, and the son said, "You're right. You've been shorted. From now on, I'm going to pay you $500 a week."

If you were the employee, would that feel like justice to you?

CRT says not only has the short occurred, the short continues to occur.

---

It doesn't "point to racism built into our culture" aka "systemic oppression." It imputes race as the most important feature of life, and the explanation for everything that happens in it, in which one color is always indelibly marked as oppressor and the other always indelibly marked as the victim, and then levels a kafkatrap at anyone who disagrees with such a sordid premise. In that regard, it is just the mirror image of that which it purports to fight. It demonizes one color as genetically racist and infantilizes all others.

"Systemic oppression" is just a new name for "cultural hegemony." (google is your friend).

The Democrat Party has picked up the systemic oppression refrain for a very simple reason - it's the last excuse left after 70 years of liberal policies turned black communities into smoking piles of rubble. It just can't be that decades of bad policy which defined success on the amount spent on the policy rather than the outcome of it. It has to be bigger than that....it has to be capitalism and democracy exploited by everyone "not like us to keep us down." It merely transfers responsibility from those who made the policy or who were negatively impacted by the policy to people who had nothing to do with (and were actually berated anytime they criticized) liberal policy prescriptions on public education, urban affairs, and minority communities.

No one is more thoughtful or empathetic or enlightened for believing in CRT, just deluded with a convoluted ideological worldview which makes them feel smarter for having learned the jargon and better for taking time to explain it to others. It's the ultimate virtue posture. Problem is, virtue never needs to posture.

CRT cannot withstand the kind of critical analysis it levels and will die on the slopes of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, for the same reason all collectivist ideas end broken up on the rocks of reality - it does not serve the individual. It only serves the people who learn the new lexicon and enforce it.

The enemy of CRT is judging people at the individual level.

Every type of person exists in every race: tall, short, smart, stupid, loving, hateful, athletic, clumsy and so on.

This idea of putting people into groups of oppressor vs victims is very dangerous.

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches with current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.

J.B.Katz said:

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The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.

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the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.

Is there anytime in church history when we have not had victims in the roadway, Jewish priests avoiding victims, Levites avoiding victims and Samaritans? When Jesus told that story, was it only for the audience He had at that time or was it for others as well? I believe he also told the parable about an individual victim and not a class of victims.

https://baptistnews.com/article/please-listen-to-my-friend-ralph-west-about-racism-and-the-sbc/