Critical Race Theory, Truett and the SBC

27,866 Views | 267 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by whiterock
sombear
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J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches with current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
No doubt true. and we obviously should hold ourselves to a higher standard, but when you say "churches have a long and troubled history with racism," you could replace "church" with literally any other organization worldwide. Similarly, when you say "Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated," again, you could replace Sunday morning with about anything. And, I worked for 15 years in urban churches and youth organizations. Pastors of all races and approaches would tell me the main reason for Sunday segregation is cultural. But, I can also say that I've attended 3 evangelical mega churches (the kind that are frequently maligned) in 3 major metro areas, and all were more diverse than about any other organization. "White" churches are far more integrated than "black" churches mainly because of culture and location.

My point is that folks frequently pick on Christians for our country's past, but the issues were worldwide and rampant in all cultures and religions (including Africa). Folks also ignore the role that Christians played in ending slavery and in many other civil rights causes.
George Truett
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Sam Lowry said:

George Truett said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

TLR version - CRT is just Marxist philosophy with the word "class" replaced with "race," and the word "capitalism" replaced by "white supremacy."

No society which has embraced concepts of systemic oppression and collective guilt has ever emerged the better for it.

The idea that Marxist philosophy can be an aid for a better walk with the Lord is completely illogical except for those who wish to use said ideas to divide Christianity into a squabbling rabble.

Fight wokeness at all cost. It is flawed worldview built on ideas from the ash heap of history and there is no virtue in it at all, much less divinity.

Absolutely right.
Completely wrong for all the reasons listed above.
What do you think is the difference between traditional theory and critical theory?
I assume you're referring to critical race theory. Which traditional theory are you referring to?
George Truett
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4yrletterbear said:

CRT is one of the most harmful ways to attack racism that ever existed.

CRT "assumes" that I am racist because I am Caucasian. That is the very core of racism....assuming something because of a person's skin color.

CRT does not know me and does not know my heart. Making assumptions about a person's view of other races without knowing that same person is racist.

Are their institutions that are racist.? Well there may be a few, but they are few and far between.

Are there individuals that are racist? Yes, and they come in all colors.

CRT is not the way to achieve racial equality. Application of scripture is.
I think we're all racist to a certain degree. Many whites think they're not racist, when they really are. It's so baked into their consciousnesses that they don't perceive it.

Institutions are among the most racist of all.

I don't think CRT alone is the way to achieve racial equality, Saying the application of scripture is the way is overly simplistic because racists support their positions with scripture.

I would say the right application of scripture is, but racists think they're applying scripture rightly.

I see CRT as a point of dialogue between us and our Black brothers and sisters. It may not be the answer, but it's not incompatible with scripture or evangelical theology, and it's nothing to fear.
George Truett
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whiterock said:

4yrletterbear said:

CRT is one of the most harmful ways to attack racism that ever existed.

CRT "assumes" that I am racist because I am Caucasian. That is the very core of racism....assuming something because of a person's skin color.

CRT does not know me and does not know my heart. Making assumptions about a person's view of other races without knowing that same person is racist.

Are their institutions that are racist.? Well there may be a few, but they are few and far between.

Are there individuals that are racist? Yes, and they come in all colors.

CRT is not the way to achieve racial equality. Application of scripture is.


CRT is a worldview ordered by race every bit as much as that which it purports to oppose.


CRT points to systemic racism. It seeks to identify racial oppression, not to lift up any race as superior.
George Truett
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Osodecentx said:

CRT seems to favor racial discrimination to cure racial discrimination.


I don't see it that way. It's like the prophets of the OT who pointed out the sins of the community and called for confession and repentance.

Confession and repentance are the keys to stopping racial oppression.
George Truett
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cowach said:

I just read a multi-page article on CRT and it seemed mostly about theory and problem identification. Have the CRT proponents proposed specific solutions to the theoretical problems identified? I prefer to read and debate about potential solutions. I find that in trying to solve problems the true problem becomes more identifiable.
The ones who advocate it from a Christian perspective say the key to addressing systemic racism lies in recognition, confession, repentance, transformation, and reparation, all of which are biblical.

First, we have to recognize the problem. We have to see that our country has a racist history and that systemic racism continues to be real.

Part of that is recognizing our white privilege. No matter how poor we begin, people of color begin much lower.

Second, we need to confess our part in it. Most of us don't consider ourselves to be racist, but we're much more so than we realize.

Third, we need to repent. That means turning away from our racism and white entitlement.

Fourth, we need to be transformed. Only the Holy Spirit can turn us away from our sins and make us "new creatures."

Fifth, we need to make reparations. This is also biblical. In the OT law, the main remedy to wrongs is reparation.

By this, the vast majority of CRT advocates aren't calling for money to be handed out to individuals. They're not even calling for increased welfare money. They're calling for things like investment in Black communities, job training, better educational opportunities, and the like.
curtpenn
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George Truett said:

curtpenn said:

Working my way through Charles Murray's recent book, Human Diversity. In it, Murray examines the assumptions that gender and race are social constructs, and that class is a function of privilege. He states all three dogmas are half-truths. Interesting reading.
Not exactly a fair or middle the road scholar.

A radical, actually.


Nice ad hominem you've got there. Guess that settles it...
George Truett
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whiterock said:

George Truett said:

Osodecentx said:

CRT seems to favor racial discrimination to cure racial discrimination.


No. It doesn't.

It points to the racism built into our culture. It diagnoses the illness.

As to remedy, no movement is uniform in its views for the remedies it calls for. CRT advocates have different ideas on that. But you can't cure a disease by ignoring it.

A story to ponder.

A man hired a person to work in his store for $500 a week. For years, he paid the person only $400 a week.

Years later, the man died, and his son took over the store. The employee approached him with the shortfall, and the son said, "You're right. You've been shorted. From now on, I'm going to pay you $500 a week."

If you were the employee, would that feel like justice to you?

CRT says not only has the short occurred, the short continues to occur.
It doesn't "point to racism built into our culture" aka "systemic oppression." It imputes race as the most important feature of life, and the explanation for everything that happens in it, in which one color is always indelibly marked as oppressor and the other always indelibly marked as the victim, and then levels a kafkatrap at anyone who disagrees with such a sordid premise. In that regard, it is just the mirror image of that which it purports to fight. It demonizes one color as genetically racist and infantilizes all others.

"Systemic oppression" is just a new name for "cultural hegemony." (google is your friend).

The Democrat Party has picked up the systemic oppression refrain for a very simple reason - it's the last excuse left after 70 years of liberal policies turned black communities into smoking piles of rubble. It just can't be that decades of bad policy which defined success on the amount spent on the policy rather than the outcome of it. It has to be bigger than that....it has to be capitalism and democracy exploited by everyone "not like us to keep us down." It merely transfers responsibility from those who made the policy or who were negatively impacted by the policy to people who had nothing to do with (and were actually berated anytime they criticized) liberal policy prescriptions on public education, urban affairs, and minority communities.

No one is more thoughtful or empathetic or enlightened for believing in CRT, just deluded with a convoluted ideological worldview which makes them feel smarter for having learned the jargon and better for taking time to explain it to others. It's the ultimate virtue posture. Problem is, virtue never needs to posture.

CRT cannot withstand the kind of critical analysis it levels and will die on the slopes of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, for the same reason all collectivist ideas end broken up on the rocks of reality - it does not serve the individual. It only serves the people who learn the new lexicon and enforce it.


I don't know of any CRT person who believes race is the most important feature of life. It IS a critical part of American history and has been displayed at every turn, from our slave industry, to our extermination of Native Americans, to our internment of Japanese Americans, and on and on.

But we've wandered afield from our original conversation, which was about whether CRT is compatible with the scriptures and Christian theology. Thus far, you haven't proven it isn't.
George Truett
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curtpenn said:

George Truett said:

curtpenn said:

Working my way through Charles Murray's recent book, Human Diversity. In it, Murray examines the assumptions that gender and race are social constructs, and that class is a function of privilege. He states all three dogmas are half-truths. Interesting reading.
Not exactly a fair or middle the road scholar.

A radical, actually.


Nice ad hominem you've got there. Guess that settles it...
Just saying, you're reading appears to be slanted one way.
George Truett
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Doc Holliday said:

The enemy of CRT is judging people at the individual level.

Every type of person exists in every race: tall, short, smart, stupid, loving, hateful, athletic, clumsy and so on.

This idea of putting people into groups of oppressor vs victims is very dangerous.
It may be dangerous, but it's the truth.

You can't cure a disease by ignoring it.
Doc Holliday
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George Truett said:

4yrletterbear said:

CRT is one of the most harmful ways to attack racism that ever existed.

CRT "assumes" that I am racist because I am Caucasian. That is the very core of racism....assuming something because of a person's skin color.

CRT does not know me and does not know my heart. Making assumptions about a person's view of other races without knowing that same person is racist.

Are their institutions that are racist.? Well there may be a few, but they are few and far between.

Are there individuals that are racist? Yes, and they come in all colors.

CRT is not the way to achieve racial equality. Application of scripture is.
I see CRT as a point of dialogue between us and our Black brothers and sisters. It may not be the answer, but it's not incompatible with scripture or evangelical theology, and it's nothing to fear.
CRT posits that the problems non whites face are entirely the fault of whites. Not just that, whites are responsible for solving it.

If nothing changes, violence will be justified against whites. If you think that's crossing the line...you will be told you're racist for objecting.
nein51
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George Truett said:

Osodecentx said:

CRT seems to favor racial discrimination to cure racial discrimination.


No. It doesn't.
It points to the racism built into our culture. It diagnoses the illness.
As to remedy, no movement is uniform in its views for the remedies it calls for. CRT advocates have different ideas on that. But you can't cure a disease by ignoring it.
A story to ponder.
A man hired a person to work in his store for $500 a week. For years, he paid the person only $400 a week.
Years later, the man died, and his son took over the store. The employee approached him with the shortfall, and the son said, "You're right. You've been shorted. From now on, I'm going to pay you $500 a week."
If you were the employee, would that feel like justice to you?
CRT says not only has the short occurred, the short continues to occur.
I have many, many issues with critical theory but just a short few here:
1) If racism is an illness or a disease (your words) that implies there is a cure. Best I can tell CRT doesnt offer that. A person can say (and I have said numerous times on this board for the purpose of discussion); ok, Im a racist, now what? CRT offers no "cure".

2) In your anecdote CRT assumes that he was short paid because of race and only because of race (or you wouldnt have used it) but let's just say the shop owner had 5 employees; 3 white, 1 black and 1 hispanic and he underpaid all of them by $100 a week; CRT would still try to teach that it was because of race not because he was a terrible owner who simply didnt want to pay his employees. I.e. literally everything is because of race, I cant fathom how anyone thinks that makes sense.

3) CRT has what I will call the Asian problem. We could spend lots of time discussing Hispanics as well but, in order to make race the basis of every problem, they are now being referred to as "White Hispanics". CRT doesnt explain the outcome of Asians. Either you believe that racism only exists along the lines of black/white or racism doesnt explain disparate outcomes.

My biggest issue really is that it's pretty obvious [to me] CRT is like a game that cant be won. The only way to win the game is not to play.
George Truett
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Is there anytime in church history when we have not had victims in the roadway, Jewish priests avoiding victims, Levites avoiding victims and Samaritans? When Jesus told that story, was it only for the audience He had at that time or was it for others as well? I believe he also told the parable about an individual victim and not a class of victims.
Glad you brought up this story because it's a great example of what CRT is about. Race is a big factor in it.

Remember, the setting for this parable. A lawyer asks Jesus: What must I do to inherit eternal life?

Jesus responds: What does the law say? The lawyer quotes Deut. 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. Love God with all you are and love your neighbor as yourself.

The lawyer wants to justify himself and asks: Who is my neighbor?

The man by the road is the everyman. The priest and the Levite would have been perceived by the Jews as the good guys. They fail to do the right thing.

Then the Samaritan comes along. Jews hated Samaritans and would have seen him as the bad guy. He was racially and theologically defective. But he does the right thing.

One of the points of this is: Your racial and theological suppositions about other people are wrong. The way you categorize people is sinful.

In the end, Jesus asks, "Who was a neighbor to the man?"

The lawyer can't even bring himself to say, "The Samaritan." Instead, he says, "The one who had mercy on him."

Jesus said, "Go and do likewise."

If you circle back to the original question, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" the parable says the racially and theologically "right" people in the parable will not inherit eternal life, while the racially and theologically "wrong" person in the parable would.

That was a shocking conclusion to his hearers. It was this kind of stuff that got him crucified.

For us, the lessons are: The hurting and oppressed are our neighbors, thus we're to love them as ourselves and show that love in tangible actions; and our racial and sometimes our theological frameworks are sinful and broken.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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George Truett said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Is there anytime in church history when we have not had victims in the roadway, Jewish priests avoiding victims, Levites avoiding victims and Samaritans? When Jesus told that story, was it only for the audience He had at that time or was it for others as well? I believe he also told the parable about an individual victim and not a class of victims.
Glad you brought up this story because it's a great example of what CRT is about. Race is a big factor in it.

One of the points of this is: Your racial and theological suppositions about other people are wrong. The way you categorize people is sinful.

Racial suppositions and categorization....exactly what CRT does, right?
J.B.Katz
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whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
Bearitto
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J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
It would. The opposite of the klan, however, is not to have a new (POC) klan targeting white people and enforcing racist policies against whites from a "Now it's OUR turn" mantra.

CRT is evil and racist. Anyone who supports it is likewise evil and racist.
Mr. Bearitto was banned by the cowardly site owners because he stated that U.S. battleships should not be named after weak victims like Emmett Till, like Robby suggested. Apparently the site owners want a ship named in their honor some day. ;)
Forest Bueller_bf
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J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
I couldn't imagine any true Christian supporting the Klan, at any time.

That said, a bunch of Preachers, Sunday school teachers, Churchgoers etc. probably have supported them. Being in church, even leading a church, doesn't make you a Christian.
J.B.Katz
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Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
I couldn't imagine any true Christian supporting the Klan, at any time.

That said, a bunch of Preachers, Sunday school teachers, Churchgoers etc. probably have supported them. Being in church, even leading a church, doesn't make you a Christian.
When I was growng up in a small town, your church was the center of your social life. There weren't malls and stores weren't open on Sunday. In some families, Dad showed up at Christmas and Easter and not the rest of the year. Some men picked a church based on which one would help their business or career most. Church was formal and my father would never have showed up in anything but a suit.

I have wondered if declines in church attendance don't refelect fewer Christians but do reflect the idea that church is no longer necessary to having a social life or career.
Forest Bueller_bf
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J.B.Katz said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
I couldn't imagine any true Christian supporting the Klan, at any time.

That said, a bunch of Preachers, Sunday school teachers, Churchgoers etc. probably have supported them. Being in church, even leading a church, doesn't make you a Christian.
When I was growng up in a small town, your church was the center of your social life. There weren't malls and stores weren't open on Sunday. In some families, Dad showed up at Christmas and Easter and not the rest of the year. Some men picked a church based on which one would help their business or career most. Church was formal and my father would never have showed up in anything but a suit.

I have wondered if declines in church attendance don't refelect fewer Christians but do reflect the idea that church is no longer necessary to having a social life or career.
It was very social. Also very formal. Seriously it was the only time many of those folks had on a suit. We lived about 15 miles from where we went to church, my dad would simply not go, my mom never learned to drive, so dad drove us once a week for the morning service and then picked us up when it was over. The preacher would regularly remind the flock we were sinning if we didn't show up 3 times a week. I never liked that particular admonition.
bubbadog
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I've been following this conversation because "critical race theory" is a topic I've been hearing a lot about without ever hearing anyone explain precisely what they mean by that term. From what George is saying, it sounds like I'm not alone in that -- that the definition is kind of nebulous and squishy.

Frankly, I wish there weren't such a thing as critical race theory. It's too important a topic to be left to academicians, and this is a good example of what happens when they hijack a conversation. My experience with academics in the social sciences is that they try to develop frameworks for understanding large, complex issues like this. Some of these frameworks are better than others, but all of them are artificial constructs that should not necessarily have to define the conversation. The problem is that, once you start talking about some scholarly framework, the discussion becomes defined by the merits of the framework rather than by the actual topic the framework was meant to address.

And I would argue that you don't need the framework of CRT to understand or talk about this issue. In fact, some of these frameworks actually make the issue HARDER to understand, because many academics interject their own interpretive lens (such as Marxist theory, to cite one example) where it's not necessary and doesn't belong.

Therefore, I would scrap the whole CRT framework as unnecessary and unhelpful. This, however, does not mean that the issue that CRT was meanto address isn't real. If CRT was meant to shed light on institutional racism, then let's just talk about institutional racism.

Here's my two cents on that: Institutional racism is real. That doesn't mean racism is everywhere, even if it is ever present. It doesn't mean that everyone who works within systems that have helped perpetuate racism is a racist. It just means that we should think about how racism has become institutionalized in this country. Then, once we recognize what happened, it means we should consider what we can do about it.

Three quick examples:

Did you know that the GI Bill (which enabled my father to become the first in his family to attend college) originally excluded black veterans? I didn't know that until a few years ago. That shameful bit of institutional racism has since been rectified, of course, but we still feel the effects of it. For example, the network of connections my father and uncle made in college, thanks to the GI Bill, were instrumental in helping me get an interview that led to my first job. But a black kid with my same skills and experience probably would not have had that advantage when I graduated from BU in 1979, because his father wouldn't have been able to go to college on the GI Bill.

Did you know that most black people originally weren't eligible for Social Security? As the bill was working through Congress, it faced serious opposition from Southern representatives. To get the support that would ensure passage, FDR agreed to a compromise -- all domestic and agricultural workers would be excluded. That meant a majority of African Americans at the time would be excluded, and that was the intent.

Did you know that, in many parts of the country, black people were excluded from buying houses in certain neighborhoods thanks to informal agreements by banks and Realtors? And when they could get loans, they usually were on less favorable terms than white people with the same income could get.

One result of all of these examples is that they made it harder for black people to accumulate wealth and pass it to their children than it was for white people with the same skills and financial means. And those are all examples of how institutional racism has distorted opportunities for Americans. There are many more examples, but these will do for now.

I would argue that the first step is simply to acknowledge what happened. Acknowledging it doesn't mean that it's my fault or your fault, or that we supported such things. We just need to confront the truth.

The second step is to talk about how, if possible, we address institutional racism, both the lingering effects of past racism and current examples of institutional racism. That is surely the harder part of the conversation, and it is possible to have reasonable and honest disagreements about what should be done. But we still need to have the conversations.

Let's just do it minus having to deal with all the baggage and mess of some artificial construct like critical race theory.

And, yes, I believe that churches both contributed to institutional racism (actively and passively) while many churches also led the right against racism. We don't need to be binary in thinking about this. Acknowledging the anti-racist efforts of many US Christians does not absolve American Christianity as a whole, however. Our faith is rooted in the premise, articulated repeatedly by Paul, that within the body of Christ there can be no artificial distinctions between male/female, slaves/free persons, cultural Jews/Greeks -- and, by obvious extension, no distinctions based on race. And yet, far too often, American churches, which enjoyed religious freedom that the early Christians did not have, nevertheless violated this basic organizing principle, both through active enforcement of segregation and by too frequent failure to use their freedom to speak out forcefully as American churches have done on so many other social/moral/political issues from abolitionism to temperance to abortion. In my own United Methodist denomination, it goes back to a decision in the early 1800s to make black congregants in Philadelphia sit in segregated balconies; they took the hint and formed the AME Church, which remains separate to this day. When the North-South breach that erupted over slavery in the 1840s was healed in 1948, all black Methodist churches, regardless of whether they were in Texas or Illinois or New York, were put into one segregated jurisdiction called the Central Conference. I abhor those decisions; I accept no responsibility for them and feel no personal guilt over them. But I cannot ignore that these actions, made by others of the "favored" skin color, created effects that built walls of separation between me and many of my African American brothers and sisters who claim the name Methodist, and those walls of injury and mistrust are hard to tear down. But it's up to me and other white Methodists to work toward tearing down those walls and repairing the damage our white Methodist forebears created, because the alternative is just to let it fester by saying that it's not my responsibility since I'm not responsible for creating the problem.

"Free your ass and your mind will follow." -- George Clinton
LIB,MR BEARS
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CRT assumes privilege.

Let's say I draw a line where that line is what we would all agree is just and right. Now, let's say those below the line DON'T get jobs they are fully qualified for because of their ethnicity, does that mean that those that are fully qualified and DO get jobs fall on the line or, do they fall above the line and get privileges they are not deserving to have?

How is a less-than-just employer a slam on the employee? Shouldn't we all want to be on that line and wouldn't the Christian thing be to want all on that line. How is making a false claim against some that they are above the line, Christian?

J.B.Katz
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Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
I couldn't imagine any true Christian supporting the Klan, at any time.

That said, a bunch of Preachers, Sunday school teachers, Churchgoers etc. probably have supported them. Being in church, even leading a church, doesn't make you a Christian.
When I was growng up in a small town, your church was the center of your social life. There weren't malls and stores weren't open on Sunday. In some families, Dad showed up at Christmas and Easter and not the rest of the year. Some men picked a church based on which one would help their business or career most. Church was formal and my father would never have showed up in anything but a suit.

I have wondered if declines in church attendance don't refelect fewer Christians but do reflect the idea that church is no longer necessary to having a social life or career.
It was very social. Also very formal. Seriously it was the only time many of those folks had on a suit. We lived about 15 miles from where we went to church, my dad would simply not go, my mom never learned to drive, so dad drove us once a week for the morning service and then picked us up when it was over. The preacher would regularly remind the flock we were sinning if we didn't show up 3 times a week. I never liked that particular admonition.
My father taught my mother to drive in the mid-1950s when I was a little kid. That was the closest they ever came to divorce. The car was a Ford Fairlane with a 3 on the tree manual transmission. She popped the clutch so much, killing the engine, that us kids would tune up and cry when she got in the driver's seat.
LIB,MR BEARS
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J.B.Katz said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
I couldn't imagine any true Christian supporting the Klan, at any time.

That said, a bunch of Preachers, Sunday school teachers, Churchgoers etc. probably have supported them. Being in church, even leading a church, doesn't make you a Christian.
When I was growng up in a small town, your church was the center of your social life. There weren't malls and stores weren't open on Sunday. In some families, Dad showed up at Christmas and Easter and not the rest of the year. Some men picked a church based on which one would help their business or career most. Church was formal and my father would never have showed up in anything but a suit.

I have wondered if declines in church attendance don't refelect fewer Christians but do reflect the idea that church is no longer necessary to having a social life or career.
It was very social. Also very formal. Seriously it was the only time many of those folks had on a suit. We lived about 15 miles from where we went to church, my dad would simply not go, my mom never learned to drive, so dad drove us once a week for the morning service and then picked us up when it was over. The preacher would regularly remind the flock we were sinning if we didn't show up 3 times a week. I never liked that particular admonition.
My father taught my mother to drive in the mid-1950s when I was a little kid. That was the closest they ever came to divorce. The car was a Ford Fairlane with a 3 on the tree manual transmission. She popped the clutch so much, killing the engine, that us kids would tune up and cry when she got in the driver's seat.
LOL. I taught my wife how to drive a manual. She continues, 35 years later, to say I yelled at her. I MARRIED A LIAR!!!
sombear
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What makes discussion about all of this difficult is:
- there is no clear definition of modern day racism
- there are no easy answer as to what to do about racism now
- folks who disagree with the left's solution are seen by many as automatically racist
- folks emphasize the importance of "acknowledging our history of racism," but who has not acknowledged it? Every institution in the U.S. has. Then the follow up is that we need to acknowledge "systemic racism" even today, but that is difficult to define, and many well-intentioned folks do not think it even exits. As others have pointed out, every major employer in the country is doing everything possible to hire minorities; every university is doing the same as to minority students; minorities make up the highest % of government employees; we have among the strictest anti-discrimination laws in the world; reverse discrimination is generally lawful; and a very high % of minorities are governed by their own.
J.B.Katz
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

J.B.Katz said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
I couldn't imagine any true Christian supporting the Klan, at any time.

That said, a bunch of Preachers, Sunday school teachers, Churchgoers etc. probably have supported them. Being in church, even leading a church, doesn't make you a Christian.
When I was growng up in a small town, your church was the center of your social life. There weren't malls and stores weren't open on Sunday. In some families, Dad showed up at Christmas and Easter and not the rest of the year. Some men picked a church based on which one would help their business or career most. Church was formal and my father would never have showed up in anything but a suit.

I have wondered if declines in church attendance don't refelect fewer Christians but do reflect the idea that church is no longer necessary to having a social life or career.
It was very social. Also very formal. Seriously it was the only time many of those folks had on a suit. We lived about 15 miles from where we went to church, my dad would simply not go, my mom never learned to drive, so dad drove us once a week for the morning service and then picked us up when it was over. The preacher would regularly remind the flock we were sinning if we didn't show up 3 times a week. I never liked that particular admonition.
My father taught my mother to drive in the mid-1950s when I was a little kid. That was the closest they ever came to divorce. The car was a Ford Fairlane with a 3 on the tree manual transmission. She popped the clutch so much, killing the engine, that us kids would tune up and cry when she got in the driver's seat.
LOL. I taught my wife how to drive a manual. She continues, 35 years later, to say I yelled at her. I MARRIED A LIAR!!!
My wife's mother once told her, "If you want to stay married, don't hang wallpaper together." Her parents almost got divorced papering a bathroom.
bubbadog
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Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
I couldn't imagine any true Christian supporting the Klan, at any time.

That said, a bunch of Preachers, Sunday school teachers, Churchgoers etc. probably have supported them. Being in church, even leading a church, doesn't make you a Christian.
It's sad, but it was very common. My father was a Methodist preacher. When I was growing up, we moved around a lot within the Central Texas Conference, as was the rule with Methodist preachers. My dad served a couple of years in Taylor. He maintained friendships there till the day he died; I'm still in touch with some of them. But he also remembered it as a place where racism was awful and upfront.

One older woman there told me that her father had been chairman of what the Methodists used to call the Official Board (like a board of deacons in the Baptist Church) in the early 1920s. That period was the height of KKK membership nationwide, with a majority of members in the North. Anyway, she said they got a new minister who dictated that everyone on the Official Board had to join the Klan. Her father refused. They kicked him off the Board at the preacher's insistence. After the preacher moved on, a couple of years later, her dad was allowed back in.

My father served in Taylor around 1960. It was bad then, too. The church treasurer was required under Methodist rules to send a portion of their tithes and offerings (which are still called apportionments in the Methodist Church) to the general church to support everything from disaster relief efforts to educational programs. The treasurer refused to mail in the church's share of apportionments because he believed that some of the money would go to help black people, and he wouldn't stand for that. My father, who was still fairly new to the ministry, had to consult his District Superintendent for guidance. The DS was clear: Get rid of that treasurer and get a new one. But that was easier said than done. The treasurer also ran the main bank in town. Most of the farmers in the congregation depended on the bank for loans. (That's one way that individual racism can infect entire systems.) People were reluctant to rebuke the guy for fear of the power he had over their lives. There was a pretty bitter fight. In the end, the church got a new treasurer. There was still a good bit of bitterness. We wound up moving the next year to Dawson. I have a hunch that the racist treasurer was in some form of the Klan. (He was definitely an Aggie.) The old Swedes in Taylor took the more racially progressive side. One of them became the new treasurer and was a lifelong friend. I got to visit with him again at my father's funeral in 2017.

"Free your ass and your mind will follow." -- George Clinton
LIB,MR BEARS
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J.B.Katz said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

J.B.Katz said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
I couldn't imagine any true Christian supporting the Klan, at any time.

That said, a bunch of Preachers, Sunday school teachers, Churchgoers etc. probably have supported them. Being in church, even leading a church, doesn't make you a Christian.
When I was growng up in a small town, your church was the center of your social life. There weren't malls and stores weren't open on Sunday. In some families, Dad showed up at Christmas and Easter and not the rest of the year. Some men picked a church based on which one would help their business or career most. Church was formal and my father would never have showed up in anything but a suit.

I have wondered if declines in church attendance don't refelect fewer Christians but do reflect the idea that church is no longer necessary to having a social life or career.
It was very social. Also very formal. Seriously it was the only time many of those folks had on a suit. We lived about 15 miles from where we went to church, my dad would simply not go, my mom never learned to drive, so dad drove us once a week for the morning service and then picked us up when it was over. The preacher would regularly remind the flock we were sinning if we didn't show up 3 times a week. I never liked that particular admonition.
My father taught my mother to drive in the mid-1950s when I was a little kid. That was the closest they ever came to divorce. The car was a Ford Fairlane with a 3 on the tree manual transmission. She popped the clutch so much, killing the engine, that us kids would tune up and cry when she got in the driver's seat.
LOL. I taught my wife how to drive a manual. She continues, 35 years later, to say I yelled at her. I MARRIED A LIAR!!!
My wife's mother once told her, "If you want to stay married, don't hang wallpaper together." Her parents almost got divorced papering a bathroom.
This could be a gun thread by itself.

Fun
Fun, not gun.
But on second thought...
J.B.Katz
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

J.B.Katz said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

J.B.Katz said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
I couldn't imagine any true Christian supporting the Klan, at any time.

That said, a bunch of Preachers, Sunday school teachers, Churchgoers etc. probably have supported them. Being in church, even leading a church, doesn't make you a Christian.
When I was growng up in a small town, your church was the center of your social life. There weren't malls and stores weren't open on Sunday. In some families, Dad showed up at Christmas and Easter and not the rest of the year. Some men picked a church based on which one would help their business or career most. Church was formal and my father would never have showed up in anything but a suit.

I have wondered if declines in church attendance don't refelect fewer Christians but do reflect the idea that church is no longer necessary to having a social life or career.
It was very social. Also very formal. Seriously it was the only time many of those folks had on a suit. We lived about 15 miles from where we went to church, my dad would simply not go, my mom never learned to drive, so dad drove us once a week for the morning service and then picked us up when it was over. The preacher would regularly remind the flock we were sinning if we didn't show up 3 times a week. I never liked that particular admonition.
My father taught my mother to drive in the mid-1950s when I was a little kid. That was the closest they ever came to divorce. The car was a Ford Fairlane with a 3 on the tree manual transmission. She popped the clutch so much, killing the engine, that us kids would tune up and cry when she got in the driver's seat.
LOL. I taught my wife how to drive a manual. She continues, 35 years later, to say I yelled at her. I MARRIED A LIAR!!!
My wife's mother once told her, "If you want to stay married, don't hang wallpaper together." Her parents almost got divorced papering a bathroom.
This could be a gun thread by itself.

Fun
Fun, not gun.
But on second thought...
The best part was that she bought the paper on sale and after they put it up, it started shrinking at the edges so a quarter inch gap appeared between sections. He never said a word about it and neither did she.
bubbadog
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Is there anytime in church history when we have not had victims in the roadway, Jewish priests avoiding victims, Levites avoiding victims and Samaritans? When Jesus told that story, was it only for the audience He had at that time or was it for others as well? I believe he also told the parable about an individual victim and not a class of victims.
I'd like to commend a new book to you about the Sermon on the Mount by Amy J. Levine. I have read it, and I find it both informative and powerful.

Dr. Levine is a devout Orthodox Jew who also happens to be one of the foremost experts in the world on early Christian teaching and practice. She has said that she developed this interest in Christianity when she was growing up because all of her neighbors were Christians, and she better wanted to understand them.

She has written a number of books, and a common theme is exploring how early Christian teaching is inseparably intertwined from Judaism. In the new book on the Sermon on the Mount, she points out that Jesus was referred to in the gospels as "teacher" (or rabbi) more than by any other term of address. As Dr. Levine puts it, the Sermon is a beginner's guide to Torah -- here we have a Jewish teacher teaching Jews about the heart of Judaism.

I bring this up here because Jewish teaching is all about the community. Even when it establishes codes of individual conduct, the underlying reasons for what is good conduct and bad conduct connect to the community. Therefore, I believe it is a misreading of Jesus' teaching to think that a parable like the Good Samaritan is all about individual victims and individuals who show mercy. The point of Jesus telling the lawyer "Go and do likewise" isn't simply about individual salvation; it is just as much if not more about helping to uphold a community where mercy is part of justice, in the Old Testament Jewish sense that justice involves conduct (by both individuals AND the community) that follows God's revelation for what a society that is right relationship with God (i.e., a society that experiences shalom) will look like.

The earliest Christians followed this view, and the clues are to be found in Acts and in Paul's letters. For them, Christianity was a religion that was to be practiced and experienced in community. That's very different from how Christianity is often viewed as a commodity in our consumerist society: "I got Jesus, you go get some Jesus, and then we'll both have Jesus," kind of like buying a refrigerator.
"Free your ass and your mind will follow." -- George Clinton
BusyTarpDuster2017
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bubbadog said:

Here's my two cents on that: Institutional racism is real.

Three quick examples:

Did you know that the GI Bill (which enabled my father to become the first in his family to attend college) originally excluded black veterans? I didn't know that until a few years ago. That shameful bit of institutional racism has since been rectified, of course, but we still feel the effects of it. For example, the network of connections my father and uncle made in college, thanks to the GI Bill, were instrumental in helping me get an interview that led to my first job. But a black kid with my same skills and experience probably would not have had that advantage when I graduated from BU in 1979, because his father wouldn't have been able to go to college on the GI Bill.

Did you know that most black people originally weren't eligible for Social Security? As the bill was working through Congress, it faced serious opposition from Southern representatives. To get the support that would ensure passage, FDR agreed to a compromise -- all domestic and agricultural workers would be excluded. That meant a majority of African Americans at the time would be excluded, and that was the intent.

Did you know that, in many parts of the country, black people were excluded from buying houses in certain neighborhoods thanks to informal agreements by banks and Realtors? And when they could get loans, they usually were on less favorable terms than white people with the same income could get.

You said institutional racism is real, then cited examples from the past that no longer exist. Saying it is real or that it exists implies that it is happening today. Yes, there are still effects from past institutional racism, but that is saying something different. Can you give an example of institutional racism that is still ongoing today?
curtpenn
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George Truett said:

curtpenn said:

George Truett said:

curtpenn said:

Working my way through Charles Murray's recent book, Human Diversity. In it, Murray examines the assumptions that gender and race are social constructs, and that class is a function of privilege. He states all three dogmas are half-truths. Interesting reading.
Not exactly a fair or middle the road scholar.

A radical, actually.


Nice ad hominem you've got there. Guess that settles it...
Just saying, you're reading appears to be slanted one way.


How about your reading? In any event, non sequitur.
curtpenn
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curtpenn said:

George Truett said:

curtpenn said:

George Truett said:

curtpenn said:

Working my way through Charles Murray's recent book, Human Diversity. In it, Murray examines the assumptions that gender and race are social constructs, and that class is a function of privilege. He states all three dogmas are half-truths. Interesting reading.
Not exactly a fair or middle the road scholar.

A radical, actually.


Nice ad hominem you've got there. Guess that settles it...
Just saying, you're reading appears to be slanted one way.


How about your reading? In any event, non sequitur.

You concerned about keeping an open mind at all?
curtpenn
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bubbadog said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.B.Katz said:

whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

The Ku Klux Klan was supported and even led by churches and preachers. Here's an article about a Methodist preacher who declared himself Imperial Wizard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/08/the-preacher-who-used-christianity-to-revive-the-ku-klux-klan/

"Many ministers in Protestant denominations would openly declare their membership in the Klan. And creepy photos would capture Klan members in white hoods standing in churches and sitting in choir pews."

When I was a kid I attended churches wiAt th current and former Klan members. At one the treasurer refused to pay into the central church fund all churches were supposed to support to pay for mission work and minister's retirement pensions because he believed the mission work helped black people.

Churches have a long and trouble history with racism and Sunday morning remains one of the most segregated hours of the week.
the other side of the coin is that, for over a century, the anti-racist chorus was loudest from the church bench.

Telling only one side of the story to inflame and order minds is classic marxist dialectic.
Interesting that you think of this issue as two-sided.

As a Christian I'dassume that churches / Christians would stand against racism and violence because Christ tells us to love our neighbors without a qualifier. One point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that good people aren't limited to those who share your religion or race and that the good you do shouldn't be limited to your own people but should be extended to everyone.

So it's a sad fact that any churches / ministers / believers led or supported the Klan. When you would expect Christians to do the opposite.
I couldn't imagine any true Christian supporting the Klan, at any time.

That said, a bunch of Preachers, Sunday school teachers, Churchgoers etc. probably have supported them. Being in church, even leading a church, doesn't make you a Christian.
It's sad, but it was very common. My father was a Methodist preacher. When I was growing up, we moved around a lot within the Central Texas Conference, as was the rule with Methodist preachers. My dad served a couple of years in Taylor. He maintained friendships there till the day he died; I'm still in touch with some of them. But he also remembered it as a place where racism was awful and upfront.

One older woman there told me that her father had been chairman of what the Methodists used to call the Official Board (like a board of deacons in the Baptist Church) in the early 1920s. That period was the height of KKK membership nationwide, with a majority of members in the North. Anyway, she said they got a new minister who dictated that everyone on the Official Board had to join the Klan. Her father refused. They kicked him off the Board at the preacher's insistence. After the preacher moved on, a couple of years later, her dad was allowed back in.

My father served in Taylor around 1960. It was bad then, too. The church treasurer was required under Methodist rules to send a portion of their tithes and offerings (which are still called apportionments in the Methodist Church) to the general church to support everything from disaster relief efforts to educational programs. The treasurer refused to mail in the church's share of apportionments because he believed that some of the money would go to help black people, and he wouldn't stand for that. My father, who was still fairly new to the ministry, had to consult his District Superintendent for guidance. The DS was clear: Get rid of that treasurer and get a new one. But that was easier said than done. The treasurer also ran the main bank in town. Most of the farmers in the congregation depended on the bank for loans. (That's one way that individual racism can infect entire systems.) People were reluctant to rebuke the guy for fear of the power he had over their lives. There was a pretty bitter fight. In the end, the church got a new treasurer. There was still a good bit of bitterness. We wound up moving the next year to Dawson. I have a hunch that the racist treasurer was in some form of the Klan. (He was definitely an Aggie.) The old Swedes in Taylor took the more racially progressive side. One of them became the new treasurer and was a lifelong friend. I got to visit with him again at my father's funeral in 2017.




Klan history is not my area of expertise by any means, but I've always assumed and heard that much of its growth was in response to post-war Reconstruction politics, that is, basically a form of ongoing resistance to Northern oppression.
Sam Lowry
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George Truett said:

Sam Lowry said:

George Truett said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

TLR version - CRT is just Marxist philosophy with the word "class" replaced with "race," and the word "capitalism" replaced by "white supremacy."

No society which has embraced concepts of systemic oppression and collective guilt has ever emerged the better for it.

The idea that Marxist philosophy can be an aid for a better walk with the Lord is completely illogical except for those who wish to use said ideas to divide Christianity into a squabbling rabble.

Fight wokeness at all cost. It is flawed worldview built on ideas from the ash heap of history and there is no virtue in it at all, much less divinity.

Absolutely right.
Completely wrong for all the reasons listed above.
What do you think is the difference between traditional theory and critical theory?
I assume you're referring to critical race theory. Which traditional theory are you referring to?
Any and all. The distinction is essential to the definition of critical theory in all its forms.
Osodecentx
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bubbadog said:

I've been following this conversation because "critical race theory" is a topic I've been hearing a lot about without ever hearing anyone explain precisely what they mean by that term. From what George is saying, it sounds like I'm not alone in that -- that the definition is kind of nebulous and squishy.

Frankly, I wish there weren't such a thing as critical race theory. It's too important a topic to be left to academicians, and this is a good example of what happens when they hijack a conversation. My experience with academics in the social sciences is that they try to develop frameworks for understanding large, complex issues like this. Some of these frameworks are better than others, but all of them are artificial constructs that should not necessarily have to define the conversation. The problem is that, once you start talking about some scholarly framework, the discussion becomes defined by the merits of the framework rather than by the actual topic the framework was meant to address.

And I would argue that you don't need the framework of CRT to understand or talk about this issue. In fact, some of these frameworks actually make the issue HARDER to understand, because many academics interject their own interpretive lens (such as Marxist theory, to cite one example) where it's not necessary and doesn't belong.

Therefore, I would scrap the whole CRT framework as unnecessary and unhelpful. This, however, does not mean that the issue that CRT was meanto address isn't real. If CRT was meant to shed light on institutional racism, then let's just talk about institutional racism.

Here's my two cents on that: Institutional racism is real. That doesn't mean racism is everywhere, even if it is ever present. It doesn't mean that everyone who works within systems that have helped perpetuate racism is a racist. It just means that we should think about how racism has become institutionalized in this country. Then, once we recognize what happened, it means we should consider what we can do about it.

Three quick examples:

Did you know that the GI Bill (which enabled my father to become the first in his family to attend college) originally excluded black veterans? I didn't know that until a few years ago. That shameful bit of institutional racism has since been rectified, of course, but we still feel the effects of it. For example, the network of connections my father and uncle made in college, thanks to the GI Bill, were instrumental in helping me get an interview that led to my first job. But a black kid with my same skills and experience probably would not have had that advantage when I graduated from BU in 1979, because his father wouldn't have been able to go to college on the GI Bill.

Did you know that most black people originally weren't eligible for Social Security? As the bill was working through Congress, it faced serious opposition from Southern representatives. To get the support that would ensure passage, FDR agreed to a compromise -- all domestic and agricultural workers would be excluded. That meant a majority of African Americans at the time would be excluded, and that was the intent.

Did you know that, in many parts of the country, black people were excluded from buying houses in certain neighborhoods thanks to informal agreements by banks and Realtors? And when they could get loans, they usually were on less favorable terms than white people with the same income could get.

One result of all of these examples is that they made it harder for black people to accumulate wealth and pass it to their children than it was for white people with the same skills and financial means. And those are all examples of how institutional racism has distorted opportunities for Americans. There are many more examples, but these will do for now.

I would argue that the first step is simply to acknowledge what happened. Acknowledging it doesn't mean that it's my fault or your fault, or that we supported such things. We just need to confront the truth.

The second step is to talk about how, if possible, we address institutional racism, both the lingering effects of past racism and current examples of institutional racism. That is surely the harder part of the conversation, and it is possible to have reasonable and honest disagreements about what should be done. But we still need to have the conversations.

Let's just do it minus having to deal with all the baggage and mess of some artificial construct like critical race theory.

And, yes, I believe that churches both contributed to institutional racism (actively and passively) while many churches also led the right against racism. We don't need to be binary in thinking about this. Acknowledging the anti-racist efforts of many US Christians does not absolve American Christianity as a whole, however. Our faith is rooted in the premise, articulated repeatedly by Paul, that within the body of Christ there can be no artificial distinctions between male/female, slaves/free persons, cultural Jews/Greeks -- and, by obvious extension, no distinctions based on race. And yet, far too often, American churches, which enjoyed religious freedom that the early Christians did not have, nevertheless violated this basic organizing principle, both through active enforcement of segregation and by too frequent failure to use their freedom to speak out forcefully as American churches have done on so many other social/moral/political issues from abolitionism to temperance to abortion. In my own United Methodist denomination, it goes back to a decision in the early 1800s to make black congregants in Philadelphia sit in segregated balconies; they took the hint and formed the AME Church, which remains separate to this day. When the North-South breach that erupted over slavery in the 1840s was healed in 1948, all black Methodist churches, regardless of whether they were in Texas or Illinois or New York, were put into one segregated jurisdiction called the Central Conference. I abhor those decisions; I accept no responsibility for them and feel no personal guilt over them. But I cannot ignore that these actions, made by others of the "favored" skin color, created effects that built walls of separation between me and many of my African American brothers and sisters who claim the name Methodist, and those walls of injury and mistrust are hard to tear down. But it's up to me and other white Methodists to work toward tearing down those walls and repairing the damage our white Methodist forebears created, because the alternative is just to let it fester by saying that it's not my responsibility since I'm not responsible for creating the problem.
Good post.

I want to think on it
 
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