As OldBear pointed out, none of those verses support your idea that works allow one to attain heaven. OldBear said it well, so I will leave it at that.Sam Lowry said:See James 2:14, John 5:28-29, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 2:5-13, 2 Cor 5:10, Phil 2:12, Acts 10:34-35, 1 John 5:1-3, Matthew 12:36-37, 2 Corinthians 9:10-11, Colossians 1:24.Mothra said:You can continue to try to explain it away, split hairs and parse words all you want, but there is no denying the overriding theme of NT scripture is that salvation comes through faith and grace, and not by works. Paul could not be any more clear on the subject in Ephesians 2:8-9. It is illogical that he would specifically instruct us that works cannot save you, if he (and God) didn't actually mean what they said and were merely trying to emphasize the belief aspect.Sam Lowry said:You're trying to read these passages like a contract, but they aren't written that way. They emphasize belief because belief was the issue for 99 percent of people. Rarely would the Apostles have dealt with anyone who professed belief but rebelled over baptism (it would be another 1500 years before such captious spirits were common). Yet wherever baptism is mentioned, its saving power is affirmed.Mothra said:I am not surprised as a Catholic you believe good works are required to get to Heaven. Catholics have for centuries believed in such heresy. Problem is it is exactly that - heresy.Sam Lowry said:Well, the whole sola fide concept is deeply erroneous too.Mothra said:The verses you quoted talk of baptism, and they talk of water, but none of them plainly state that baptism by water is required to enter Heaven. And once again, such an interpretation completely contradicts numerous statements by both Christ and his apostles regarding what is required, which I have quoted above.Sam Lowry said:I quoted Scripture directly. You told me water didn't mean water. Now you're telling me about "plain language."Mothra said:Quoting scripture directly is not going outside of scripture my friend. I know you have been conditioned to believe that scripture can only be understood through the Catholic Church. That is error.Sam Lowry said:You're going outside of Scripture too. You're just relying on yourself (and Zwingli) instead of the Church that gave you the Scripture to begin with.Mothra said:You've lost the argument when you have to go outside of scripture to support your position.Sam Lowry said:They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.Oldbear83 said:Those are not Scripture.Sam Lowry said:
A few more references:
"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)
"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)
"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)
"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)
Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.
As we all know, man has misinterpreted scripture throughout history.
All I need to support my beliefs is the scripture I have given you. There is no getting around it, as evidenced by your vain attempts to draw on other sources to dispute scripture's plain language.
That should tell you all you need to know about your argument. Open your eyes, my friend.
Anyone can say all they need is Scripture, and there will be as many interpretations as there are people. That's why the history is important. If you want to understand ancient Greek culture, you study ancient Greek writings. This is no different.
As I said above, it baptism were necessary, Christ would have mentioned it in John Chapter 3, among other verses. But he and the apostles knew that no work or mechanical act could save us, which is why your belief in that position is confined to three verses that don't plainly state what you're suggesting.
Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."
Romans 10:9-10: "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."
Luke 7:50: Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace.
John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 20:31 "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
Luke 5:20 "Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."
Indeed, all of the verses I cited are likewise clear on the subject. Faith and belief are what is required of man, not works, and certainly not any mechanical act of sprinkling water on babies (yet another position on which the Catholic Church gets it wrong). Belief/repentance ALWAYS preceded baptism in scripture (something no infant could ever do).
As I said above, I have a number of Catholic friends and neighbors. I see them constantly at church, constantly doing things and performing extra-scriptural rituals which they believe somehow save them. I feel sad for them, that they completely miss grace, the most important aspect of NT scripture - that they don't understand that no work we will ever do will make us worthy of salvation. They perform acts that will not save them, but for each it is never enough because they cannot be sure they are saved. It is entirely unnecessary.
As the Lord says in scripture:
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:23-27.
The Decline of Mainline Christianity In America
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Mothra said:
Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.
I'll let Sam speak for himself; however, I thought his posts were merely stated a refutation of sola fide.
Oldbear83 said:
James 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?"
In context James says in verse 18, "I will show you my faith by my deeds", so that faith remains vital. James was not saying works are what matter, he was saying be sure your faith is real enough that it bears fruit, as all servants produce work for their master.
You failed to quote James 2:17 and 2:24, respectively ...
"So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."
" You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Oldbear83 said:
Luke 10:25-28 "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
Do you think you have kept that command fully? Do you think anyone apart from Christ fully kept that command?
What are the VERY next passages in this chapter that you omitted?
The parable of the good Samaritan. Luke 10:29-37 - Loving thy neighbor by performing acts of charity.
Oldbear83 said:
Romans 2:5-13 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will repay each person according to what they have done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
Again, do you seriously believe your works will stand up to God's scrutiny? Do you seriously believe you can stand before God and withstand his judgment?
How will God judge our works? Saint Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 ...
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I've got to rush back to work. I'll try to address the others later this evening.
Justification is not Salvation.Coke Bear said:Oldbear83 said:
James 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?"
In context James says in verse 18, "I will show you my faith by my deeds", so that faith remains vital. James was not saying works are what matter, he was saying be sure your faith is real enough that it bears fruit, as all servants produce work for their master.
You failed to quote James 2:17 and 2:24, respectively ...
"So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."
" You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Oldbear83 said:
Luke 10:25-28 "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
Do you think you have kept that command fully? Do you think anyone apart from Christ fully kept that command?
What are the VERY next passages in this chapter that you omitted?
The parable of the good Samaritan. Luke 10:29-37 - Loving thy neighbor by performing acts of charity.
Oldbear83 said:
Romans 2:5-13 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will repay each person according to what they have done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
Again, do you seriously believe your works will stand up to God's scrutiny? Do you seriously believe you can stand before God and withstand his judgment?
How will God judge our works? Saint Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 ...
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I've got to rush back to work. I'll try to address the others later this evening.
I will stop there, except to say we are all duty-bound to serve God to the best of our ability, but never presume that we have earned even the smallest part of the life to come, which is given by God's grace alone.
To think so is to spit on Christ's death on the cross as trivial or non-essential.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
One must believe to be saved.Mothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
Is the act of believing "work"? Some believe "yes", some "no".
This thread seems to divide us more than unify us
is surrender an act or is it the cessation of acting?Osodecentx said:One must believe to be saved.Mothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
Is the act of believing "work"? Some believe "yes", some "no".
This thread seems to divide us more than unify us
Is changing a mindset and act or is it simply a thought or heart-change?
Good questions, & the answers aren't worth dividing upLIB,MR BEARS said:is surrender an act or is it the cessation of acting?Osodecentx said:One must believe to be saved.Mothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
Is the act of believing "work"? Some believe "yes", some "no".
This thread seems to divide us more than unify us
Is changing a mindset and act or is it simply a thought or heart-change?
Some do. Some would say we are elected, so we do not even have free will to believe.Osodecentx said:One must believe to be saved.Mothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
Is the act of believing "work"? Some believe "yes", some "no".
This thread seems to divide us more than unify us
However, I think we would agree that a mechanical act is quite different from mere belief and repentance of sin.
Our goal is not necessarily to be unified, but to understand the gospel as accurately as we can, because there may be severe repercussions if we do not. Paul was constantly rooting out heresy in the early church.
I don't agree with this. Iron sharpens iron. Our goal is not to merely get along.Osodecentx said:Good questions, & the answers aren't worth dividing upLIB,MR BEARS said:is surrender an act or is it the cessation of acting?Osodecentx said:One must believe to be saved.Mothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
Is the act of believing "work"? Some believe "yes", some "no".
This thread seems to divide us more than unify us
Is changing a mindset and act or is it simply a thought or heart-change?
There is nothing wrong with discussions such as these, as long as they remain civil and respectful.
Mothra said:Some do. Some would say we are elected, so we do not even have free will to believe.Osodecentx said:One must believe to be saved.Mothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
Is the act of believing "work"? Some believe "yes", some "no".
This thread seems to divide us more than unify us
However, I think we would agree that a mechanical act is quite different from mere belief and repentance of sin.
Our goal is not necessarily to be unified, but to understand the gospel as accurately as we can, because there may be severe repercussions if we do not. Paul was constantly rooting out heresy in the early church.
"Goal not to unified". Yes our goal is unity in discipleship, following Jesus. That's our unity. The church is the body of Christ a unity.
"Repercussions " are, to me, in this life. If We humans choose sin or separation from God then life is devoid of meaning and can be evil. And their are repercussions in the kingdom of God in that we failed to see the Christ in the least the last and the loss.
Paul listed sins but too much false doctrine. If so enlighten me.
This doesn't strike me as very civil. You're trying to argue someone into submission. You've said the same things over and over and over etcMothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
I'd rather see a sermon than hear one
Not sure what "arguing someone into submission" is, but ok. Sam is giving as much as he's getting. We can agree to disagree, Heresy is heresy, IMO. No reason to sugar coat it given what's at stake.Osodecentx said:This doesn't strike me as very civil. You're trying to argue someone into submission. You've said the same things over and over and over etcMothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
I'd rather see a sermon than hear one
If you don't want to discuss these topics, you don't have to.
It depends on your definition of the church is. If it is everyone who purports to be Christian, we disagree on that point.Waco1947 said:Mothra said:Some do. Some would say we are elected, so we do not even have free will to believe.Osodecentx said:One must believe to be saved.Mothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
Is the act of believing "work"? Some believe "yes", some "no".
This thread seems to divide us more than unify us
However, I think we would agree that a mechanical act is quite different from mere belief and repentance of sin.
Our goal is not necessarily to be unified, but to understand the gospel as accurately as we can, because there may be severe repercussions if we do not. Paul was constantly rooting out heresy in the early church.
"Goal not to unified". Yes our goal is unity in discipleship, following Jesus. That's our unity. The church is the body of Christ a unity.
"Repercussions " are, to me, in this life. If We humans choose sin or separation from God then life is devoid of meaning and can be evil. And their are repercussions in the kingdom of God in that we failed to see the Christ in the least the last and the loss.
Paul listed sins but too much false doctrine. If so enlighten me.
I know you do not believe in a literal hell, but for those who do, error on the central tenets of the faith is of grave concern - especially in regard to salvation.
Sam's giving more than he's getting, and I'm on your side on this "how many angels on the head of a pin" issueMothra said:Not sure what "arguing someone into submission" is, but ok. Sam is giving as much as he's getting. We can agree to disagree, Heresy is heresy, IMO. No reason to sugar coat it given what's at stake.Osodecentx said:This doesn't strike me as very civil. You're trying to argue someone into submission. You've said the same things over and over and over etcMothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
I'd rather see a sermon than hear one
If you don't want to discuss these topics, you don't have to.
I hate to see Christians disrespecting one another
I think this debate is one reason Jesus used parables. People can be very stubborn and refuse to accept even direct scripture when it gets in the way of their pride. I have seen friends get divorced because neither one would back down on what should have been a small thing.Osodecentx said:Sam's giving more than he's getting, and I'm on your side on this "how many angels on the head of a pin" issueMothra said:Not sure what "arguing someone into submission" is, but ok. Sam is giving as much as he's getting. We can agree to disagree, Heresy is heresy, IMO. No reason to sugar coat it given what's at stake.Osodecentx said:This doesn't strike me as very civil. You're trying to argue someone into submission. You've said the same things over and over and over etcMothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
I'd rather see a sermon than hear one
If you don't want to discuss these topics, you don't have to.
I hate to see Christians disrespecting one another
So to discuss this matter, I see it this way. Heaven is to be in the presence of God, and Heaven is therefore completely a creation of God.
That means that no one, absolutely no one, gets into Heaven without God Himself saying they get to be there. This is not meaning God is some elitist, though. Heaven means being right there with God, and experiencing everything God experiences. If you are perfectly aligned with God, that is perfect bliss and joy and harmony. But if you are off on even one thing, that thing becomes an irritation, then a pain, then agony as it goes on and on and will never stop. This is why it matters that we pay attention to everything it means to be as one with the Father.
Now I also happen to think that Heaven is very broad and deep and vast in matters which are simply taste or personal opinion. It's kind of like the instrument you play in an orchestra. I was OK with drums and most brass instrument, but was always my best on the French Horn. That also meant I was hopeless with a woodwind or anything played with a bow. Others, of course, could work magic with a viola or an oboe, and together we could create music of amazing beauty. So in Heaven it may well be that some of us will be focused on praising God through our work, some are defenders of the faith, and some are messengers, to use the traditional division of angels, but humans come in much wider variety, and if you live long enough you will meet people who do things that defy belief for their beauty and profundity. So too there are people whose life stories will speak to God's glory in ways we have not seen in Scripture or through modern media.
I think we all agree that belief in Christ is essential, as is confession/repentance. Beyond that we can agree to disagree, while working to increase understanding all round.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
I like the way Alistair Begg says it;
"The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things."
I believe in areas where we disagree, we should at least be honest enough to review our position and look at other positions. Look at context, audience, original word in original language. Is it a point worth a battle? Are we stumbling in our attitude we have towards others or, are we creating a stumbling block for others?
God knows our heart and He knows if we are seeking a deeper relationship with him or if we are seeking to win an argument where there may not be a clear answer. Sometimes, it is best to call a timeout .
"The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things."
I believe in areas where we disagree, we should at least be honest enough to review our position and look at other positions. Look at context, audience, original word in original language. Is it a point worth a battle? Are we stumbling in our attitude we have towards others or, are we creating a stumbling block for others?
God knows our heart and He knows if we are seeking a deeper relationship with him or if we are seeking to win an argument where there may not be a clear answer. Sometimes, it is best to call a timeout .
AgreedOldbear83 said:Osodecentx said:Sam's giving more than he's getting, and I'm on your side on this "how many angels on the head of a pin" issueMothra said:Not sure what "arguing someone into submission" is, but ok. Sam is giving as much as he's getting. We can agree to disagree, Heresy is heresy, IMO. No reason to sugar coat it given what's at stake.Osodecentx said:This doesn't strike me as very civil. You're trying to argue someone into submission. You've said the same things over and over and over etcMothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
I'd rather see a sermon than hear one
If you don't want to discuss these topics, you don't have to.
I hate to see Christians disrespecting one anothe
I think we all agree that belief in Christ is essential, as is confession/repentance. Beyond that we can agree to disagree, while working to increase understanding all round.
I do not believe in the supernatural nor in a literal hell but I believe and place my faith in love and grace. As my Mother said, "My last breath shall be his." I believe she was right. Grace, grace and more grace otherwise God is not love.Mothra said:It depends on your definition of the church is. If it is everyone who purports to be Christian, we disagree on that point.Waco1947 said:Mothra said:Some do. Some would say we are elected, so we do not even have free will to believe.Osodecentx said:One must believe to be saved.Mothra said:That just seems like a less heretical way of saying the same thing - that we have to perform works in order to be saved. That is of course in contradiction to everything Christ and his apostle Paul said in scripture - that no act of man can save man.Sam Lowry said:I'm saying we cooperate in our salvation, not that we earn it.Mothra said:Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.Coke Bear said:No Catholic ever said you could.Oldbear83 said:
You simply cannot earn Heaven.
But you can certainly lose it.
Is the act of believing "work"? Some believe "yes", some "no".
This thread seems to divide us more than unify us
However, I think we would agree that a mechanical act is quite different from mere belief and repentance of sin.
Our goal is not necessarily to be unified, but to understand the gospel as accurately as we can, because there may be severe repercussions if we do not. Paul was constantly rooting out heresy in the early church.
"Goal not to unified". Yes our goal is unity in discipleship, following Jesus. That's our unity. The church is the body of Christ a unity.
"Repercussions " are, to me, in this life. If We humans choose sin or separation from God then life is devoid of meaning and can be evil. And their are repercussions in the kingdom of God in that we failed to see the Christ in the least the last and the loss.
Paul listed sins but too much false doctrine. If so enlighten me.
I know you do not believe in a literal hell, but for those who do, error on the central tenets of the faith is of grave concern - especially in regard to salvation.