Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Except the Bible says it is."

If that is true, cite where it says there is no salvation without Baptism.

---

"Repent, Peter said to them, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, to have your sins forgiven; then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

"That ark which Noah was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves, was a type of the baptism which saves us now."


"Jesus answered, Believe me, no man can enter into the kingdom of God unless birth comes to him from water, and from the Holy Spirit."

---

I am curious as to your explanation regarding why Christ did not mention baptism in his most famous quotation regarding salvation:

---

My guess is because the people who made John 3:16 famous didn't particularly care for what he said a few verses earlier.

---

Interesting. I thought it was Christ who made John 3:16 famous. But interesting to know you think Christ was wrong, or misquoted in those verses.

---

Not at all. I see no contradiction.

---

Ah, so you just don't think Christ was telling the full story then when he said belief was all that was required.

---

No single verse is the full story, nor did he ever say that. The demons also believe, and tremble.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

You've lost the argument when you have to go outside of scripture to support your position.

As we all know, man has misinterpreted scripture throughout history.

---

You're going outside of Scripture too. You're just relying on yourself (and Zwingli) instead of the Church that gave you the Scripture to begin with.

---

Quoting scripture directly is not going outside of scripture my friend. I know you have been conditioned to believe that scripture can only be understood through the Catholic Church. That is error.

All I need to support my beliefs is the scripture I have given you. There is no getting around it, as evidenced by your vain attempts to draw on other sources to dispute scripture's plain language.

That should tell you all you need to know about your argument. Open your eyes, my friend.

Mothra said:

---

J.R. said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

See John 3:5.

---

We discussed this one above, but I will summarize again. Notice that Jesus does not say here, one must be baptized to be saved. Indeed, he says that nowhere in scripture. In fact, all that is required is what he says in his most famous teaching in John Chapter 3 - which also has no mention of Baptism (though it does mention belief). There is no mechanical act required anywhere in scripture.

As I said above, to understand any single verse or passage, we must filter it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). The phrase "born of water and the Spirit" seems to be describing aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be "born again" or "born from above." So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must "be born of water and the Spirit," He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Otherwise, he would have called it baptism, and would have told us it is required to be saved. But he did not.

As I said above, there is no mechanical act required to be saved. The thief next to the cross was not baptized. Belief/repentance always precedes the mechanical act of baptism in scripture. In ever single instance.

---

What's the first thing Jesus does after the dialogue with Nicodemus? What is the second half of the chapter about?

---

Christ's words in John 3:16-18 are clear:

---

And 3:5 isn't?

---

I guess it depends. Is my interpretation of those verses above correct? I believe it is, especially when read in context with Jesus's other words and actions, and his conversation with the thief on the cross. At no place in scripture does Jesus mention Baptism is a requirement.

Yet, you have proffered those verses to support your interpretation that a mechanical act of baptism is required, when Christ did not say that, and it's clearly not something he has ever said in any other place in scripture.

So I now ask you the same question: Are Christ's words in John 3:5 clear? If so, what is he clearly saying, based on the context of his words and actions?

---

I think the best answer is what the Church Fathers and most everyone believed until the Reformation. There are other references in Scripture too, for example 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38-39, and Acts 22:16.

---

Actually, we can go back to Acts to find out what the Church Fathers believed (and I am talking about the Christian church, not a sect like Catholicism). None of the Church Fathers in Acts believed that the mechanical act of Baptism was required.

I've already addressed each of the verses you've referenced above. Bottom line is none can be interpreted to mean any mechanical act is required to be saved, especially when read in context to the plethora of verses that speak to the subject of salvation. Jesus does not say Baptism is required anywhere in scripture. Paul says it is by grace we have been saved, not by works. The thief was with Jesus in paradise, despite no mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking. The idea that baptism is a prerequisite to salvation is simply contrary to the written word.

---

Except the Bible says it is.

---

It really doesn't.
And where the Bible does speak of baptism, it certainly doesn't mean sprinkling a few drops of water on someone, just so we're clear on that.

---

So my kids who grew up Presbyterian and were sprinkled and were sprinkled are going to hell, even though they have repented and have a personal relationship with Christ/God....Just don't buy that.

---

Yup. The idea that some mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking helps one attain salvation stands in stark contrast to all that Christ and his apostles said in scripture And of course, it stands in stark contrast to the thief on the cross next to Christ who - although not baptized - was with Christ in paradise.

---

The sacraments are for us, not for God.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Except the Bible says it is."

If that is true, cite where it says there is no salvation without Baptism.

---

"Repent, Peter said to them, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, to have your sins forgiven; then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

"That ark which Noah was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves, was a type of the baptism which saves us now."


"Jesus answered, Believe me, no man can enter into the kingdom of God unless birth comes to him from water, and from the Holy Spirit."

---

I am curious as to your explanation regarding why Christ did not mention baptism in his most famous quotation regarding salvation:

---

My guess is because the people who made John 3:16 famous didn't particularly care for what he said a few verses earlier.

---

Interesting. I thought it was Christ who made John 3:16 famous. But interesting to know you think Christ was wrong, or misquoted in those verses.

---

Not at all. I see no contradiction.

---

Ah, so you just don't think Christ was telling the full story then when he said belief was all that was required.

---

No single verse is the full story, nor did he ever say that. The demons also believe, and tremble.

---

Actually, he did say that. Now what is meant by belief? Christ explains that in other verses. But the important point is, If water baptism were necessary for salvation, we would expect to find it stressed whenever the gospel is presented in Scripture. And yet, it's never mentioned as a means of salvation.

Therein lies your error.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

J.R. said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

See John 3:5.

---

We discussed this one above, but I will summarize again. Notice that Jesus does not say here, one must be baptized to be saved. Indeed, he says that nowhere in scripture. In fact, all that is required is what he says in his most famous teaching in John Chapter 3 - which also has no mention of Baptism (though it does mention belief). There is no mechanical act required anywhere in scripture.

As I said above, to understand any single verse or passage, we must filter it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). The phrase "born of water and the Spirit" seems to be describing aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be "born again" or "born from above." So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must "be born of water and the Spirit," He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Otherwise, he would have called it baptism, and would have told us it is required to be saved. But he did not.

As I said above, there is no mechanical act required to be saved. The thief next to the cross was not baptized. Belief/repentance always precedes the mechanical act of baptism in scripture. In ever single instance.

---

What's the first thing Jesus does after the dialogue with Nicodemus? What is the second half of the chapter about?

---

Christ's words in John 3:16-18 are clear:

---

And 3:5 isn't?

---

I guess it depends. Is my interpretation of those verses above correct? I believe it is, especially when read in context with Jesus's other words and actions, and his conversation with the thief on the cross. At no place in scripture does Jesus mention Baptism is a requirement.

Yet, you have proffered those verses to support your interpretation that a mechanical act of baptism is required, when Christ did not say that, and it's clearly not something he has ever said in any other place in scripture.

So I now ask you the same question: Are Christ's words in John 3:5 clear? If so, what is he clearly saying, based on the context of his words and actions?

---

I think the best answer is what the Church Fathers and most everyone believed until the Reformation. There are other references in Scripture too, for example 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38-39, and Acts 22:16.

---

Actually, we can go back to Acts to find out what the Church Fathers believed (and I am talking about the Christian church, not a sect like Catholicism). None of the Church Fathers in Acts believed that the mechanical act of Baptism was required.

I've already addressed each of the verses you've referenced above. Bottom line is none can be interpreted to mean any mechanical act is required to be saved, especially when read in context to the plethora of verses that speak to the subject of salvation. Jesus does not say Baptism is required anywhere in scripture. Paul says it is by grace we have been saved, not by works. The thief was with Jesus in paradise, despite no mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking. The idea that baptism is a prerequisite to salvation is simply contrary to the written word.

---

Except the Bible says it is.

---

It really doesn't.
And where the Bible does speak of baptism, it certainly doesn't mean sprinkling a few drops of water on someone, just so we're clear on that.

---

So my kids who grew up Presbyterian and were sprinkled and were sprinkled are going to hell, even though they have repented and have a personal relationship with Christ/God....Just don't buy that.

---

Yup. The idea that some mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking helps one attain salvation stands in stark contrast to all that Christ and his apostles said in scripture And of course, it stands in stark contrast to the thief on the cross next to Christ who - although not baptized - was with Christ in paradise.

---

The sacraments are for us, not for God.

---

So God picks and chooses for whom the sacraments are necessary?

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

You've lost the argument when you have to go outside of scripture to support your position.

As we all know, man has misinterpreted scripture throughout history.

---

You're going outside of Scripture too. You're just relying on yourself (and Zwingli) instead of the Church that gave you the Scripture to begin with.

---

Quoting scripture directly is not going outside of scripture my friend. I know you have been conditioned to believe that scripture can only be understood through the Catholic Church. That is error.

All I need to support my beliefs is the scripture I have given you. There is no getting around it, as evidenced by your vain attempts to draw on other sources to dispute scripture's plain language.

That should tell you all you need to know about your argument. Open your eyes, my friend.

---

I quoted Scripture directly. You told me water didn't mean water. Now you're telling me about "plain language."

Anyone can say all they need is Scripture, and there will be as many interpretations as there are people. That's why the history is important. If you want to understand ancient Greek culture, you study ancient Greek writings. This is no different.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Except the Bible says it is."

If that is true, cite where it says there is no salvation without Baptism.

---

"Repent, Peter said to them, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, to have your sins forgiven; then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

"That ark which Noah was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves, was a type of the baptism which saves us now."


"Jesus answered, Believe me, no man can enter into the kingdom of God unless birth comes to him from water, and from the Holy Spirit."

---

I am curious as to your explanation regarding why Christ did not mention baptism in his most famous quotation regarding salvation:

---

My guess is because the people who made John 3:16 famous didn't particularly care for what he said a few verses earlier.

---

Interesting. I thought it was Christ who made John 3:16 famous. But interesting to know you think Christ was wrong, or misquoted in those verses.

---

Not at all. I see no contradiction.

---

Ah, so you just don't think Christ was telling the full story then when he said belief was all that was required.

---

No single verse is the full story, nor did he ever say that. The demons also believe, and tremble.

---

Actually, he did say that. Now what is meant by belief? Christ explains that in other verses. But the important point is, If water baptism were necessary for salvation, we would expect to find it stressed whenever the gospel is presented in Scripture. And yet, it's never mentioned as a means of salvation.

Therein lies your error.

---

Yeah, except that it is. Repeatedly.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

J.R. said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

See John 3:5.

---

We discussed this one above, but I will summarize again. Notice that Jesus does not say here, one must be baptized to be saved. Indeed, he says that nowhere in scripture. In fact, all that is required is what he says in his most famous teaching in John Chapter 3 - which also has no mention of Baptism (though it does mention belief). There is no mechanical act required anywhere in scripture.

As I said above, to understand any single verse or passage, we must filter it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). The phrase "born of water and the Spirit" seems to be describing aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be "born again" or "born from above." So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must "be born of water and the Spirit," He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Otherwise, he would have called it baptism, and would have told us it is required to be saved. But he did not.

As I said above, there is no mechanical act required to be saved. The thief next to the cross was not baptized. Belief/repentance always precedes the mechanical act of baptism in scripture. In ever single instance.

---

What's the first thing Jesus does after the dialogue with Nicodemus? What is the second half of the chapter about?

---

Christ's words in John 3:16-18 are clear:

---

And 3:5 isn't?

---

I guess it depends. Is my interpretation of those verses above correct? I believe it is, especially when read in context with Jesus's other words and actions, and his conversation with the thief on the cross. At no place in scripture does Jesus mention Baptism is a requirement.

Yet, you have proffered those verses to support your interpretation that a mechanical act of baptism is required, when Christ did not say that, and it's clearly not something he has ever said in any other place in scripture.

So I now ask you the same question: Are Christ's words in John 3:5 clear? If so, what is he clearly saying, based on the context of his words and actions?

---

I think the best answer is what the Church Fathers and most everyone believed until the Reformation. There are other references in Scripture too, for example 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38-39, and Acts 22:16.

---

Actually, we can go back to Acts to find out what the Church Fathers believed (and I am talking about the Christian church, not a sect like Catholicism). None of the Church Fathers in Acts believed that the mechanical act of Baptism was required.

I've already addressed each of the verses you've referenced above. Bottom line is none can be interpreted to mean any mechanical act is required to be saved, especially when read in context to the plethora of verses that speak to the subject of salvation. Jesus does not say Baptism is required anywhere in scripture. Paul says it is by grace we have been saved, not by works. The thief was with Jesus in paradise, despite no mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking. The idea that baptism is a prerequisite to salvation is simply contrary to the written word.

---

Except the Bible says it is.

---

It really doesn't.
And where the Bible does speak of baptism, it certainly doesn't mean sprinkling a few drops of water on someone, just so we're clear on that.

---

So my kids who grew up Presbyterian and were sprinkled and were sprinkled are going to hell, even though they have repented and have a personal relationship with Christ/God....Just don't buy that.

---

Yup. The idea that some mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking helps one attain salvation stands in stark contrast to all that Christ and his apostles said in scripture And of course, it stands in stark contrast to the thief on the cross next to Christ who - although not baptized - was with Christ in paradise.

---

The sacraments are for us, not for God.

---

So God picks and chooses for whom the sacraments are necessary?

---

The judgment is his, of course.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

You've lost the argument when you have to go outside of scripture to support your position.

As we all know, man has misinterpreted scripture throughout history.

---

You're going outside of Scripture too. You're just relying on yourself (and Zwingli) instead of the Church that gave you the Scripture to begin with.

---

Quoting scripture directly is not going outside of scripture my friend. I know you have been conditioned to believe that scripture can only be understood through the Catholic Church. That is error.

All I need to support my beliefs is the scripture I have given you. There is no getting around it, as evidenced by your vain attempts to draw on other sources to dispute scripture's plain language.

That should tell you all you need to know about your argument. Open your eyes, my friend.

---

I quoted Scripture directly. You told me water didn't mean water. Now you're telling me about "plain language."

Anyone can say all they need is Scripture, and there will be as many interpretations as there are people. That's why the history is important. If you want to understand ancient Greek culture, you study ancient Greek writings. This is no different.

---

The verses you quoted talk of baptism, and they talk of water, but none of them plainly state that baptism by water is required to enter Heaven. And once again, such an interpretation completely contradicts numerous statements by both Christ and his apostles regarding what is required, which I have quoted above.

As I said above, it baptism were necessary, Christ would have mentioned it in John Chapter 3, among other verses. But he and the apostles knew that no work or mechanical act could save us, which is why your belief in that position is confined to three verses that don't plainly state what you're suggesting.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Except the Bible says it is."

If that is true, cite where it says there is no salvation without Baptism.

---

"Repent, Peter said to them, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, to have your sins forgiven; then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

"That ark which Noah was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves, was a type of the baptism which saves us now."


"Jesus answered, Believe me, no man can enter into the kingdom of God unless birth comes to him from water, and from the Holy Spirit."

---

I am curious as to your explanation regarding why Christ did not mention baptism in his most famous quotation regarding salvation:

---

My guess is because the people who made John 3:16 famous didn't particularly care for what he said a few verses earlier.

---

Interesting. I thought it was Christ who made John 3:16 famous. But interesting to know you think Christ was wrong, or misquoted in those verses.

---

Not at all. I see no contradiction.

---

Ah, so you just don't think Christ was telling the full story then when he said belief was all that was required.

---

No single verse is the full story, nor did he ever say that. The demons also believe, and tremble.

---

Actually, he did say that. Now what is meant by belief? Christ explains that in other verses. But the important point is, If water baptism were necessary for salvation, we would expect to find it stressed whenever the gospel is presented in Scripture. And yet, it's never mentioned as a means of salvation.

Therein lies your error.

---

Yeah, except that it is. Repeatedly.

---

You are deceived, my friend. You have three verses which you have stretched to suggest something they do not.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

J.R. said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

See John 3:5.

---

We discussed this one above, but I will summarize again. Notice that Jesus does not say here, one must be baptized to be saved. Indeed, he says that nowhere in scripture. In fact, all that is required is what he says in his most famous teaching in John Chapter 3 - which also has no mention of Baptism (though it does mention belief). There is no mechanical act required anywhere in scripture.

As I said above, to understand any single verse or passage, we must filter it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). The phrase "born of water and the Spirit" seems to be describing aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be "born again" or "born from above." So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must "be born of water and the Spirit," He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Otherwise, he would have called it baptism, and would have told us it is required to be saved. But he did not.

As I said above, there is no mechanical act required to be saved. The thief next to the cross was not baptized. Belief/repentance always precedes the mechanical act of baptism in scripture. In ever single instance.

---

What's the first thing Jesus does after the dialogue with Nicodemus? What is the second half of the chapter about?

---

Christ's words in John 3:16-18 are clear:

---

And 3:5 isn't?

---

I guess it depends. Is my interpretation of those verses above correct? I believe it is, especially when read in context with Jesus's other words and actions, and his conversation with the thief on the cross. At no place in scripture does Jesus mention Baptism is a requirement.

Yet, you have proffered those verses to support your interpretation that a mechanical act of baptism is required, when Christ did not say that, and it's clearly not something he has ever said in any other place in scripture.

So I now ask you the same question: Are Christ's words in John 3:5 clear? If so, what is he clearly saying, based on the context of his words and actions?

---

I think the best answer is what the Church Fathers and most everyone believed until the Reformation. There are other references in Scripture too, for example 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38-39, and Acts 22:16.

---

Actually, we can go back to Acts to find out what the Church Fathers believed (and I am talking about the Christian church, not a sect like Catholicism). None of the Church Fathers in Acts believed that the mechanical act of Baptism was required.

I've already addressed each of the verses you've referenced above. Bottom line is none can be interpreted to mean any mechanical act is required to be saved, especially when read in context to the plethora of verses that speak to the subject of salvation. Jesus does not say Baptism is required anywhere in scripture. Paul says it is by grace we have been saved, not by works. The thief was with Jesus in paradise, despite no mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking. The idea that baptism is a prerequisite to salvation is simply contrary to the written word.

---

Except the Bible says it is.

---

It really doesn't.
And where the Bible does speak of baptism, it certainly doesn't mean sprinkling a few drops of water on someone, just so we're clear on that.

---

So my kids who grew up Presbyterian and were sprinkled and were sprinkled are going to hell, even though they have repented and have a personal relationship with Christ/God....Just don't buy that.

---

Yup. The idea that some mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking helps one attain salvation stands in stark contrast to all that Christ and his apostles said in scripture And of course, it stands in stark contrast to the thief on the cross next to Christ who - although not baptized - was with Christ in paradise.

---

The sacraments are for us, not for God.

---

So God picks and chooses for whom the sacraments are necessary?

---

The judgment is his, of course.

---

"The judgment is his, of course."

So, it's a requirement that is waived for some people? What other requirements does God waive?

It's sad how inconsistent your God is. I am glad mine is not.

Romans 10:9-10 speaks to what kind of "belief" is required:

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

This is of course consistent with Christ's words in John 3:16-18.

And once again, despite your claim that we must go through some mechanical act to attain salvation, no mention again of baptism as a requirement.

Hmm...

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

You've lost the argument when you have to go outside of scripture to support your position.

As we all know, man has misinterpreted scripture throughout history.

---

You're going outside of Scripture too. You're just relying on yourself (and Zwingli) instead of the Church that gave you the Scripture to begin with.

---

Quoting scripture directly is not going outside of scripture my friend. I know you have been conditioned to believe that scripture can only be understood through the Catholic Church. That is error.

All I need to support my beliefs is the scripture I have given you. There is no getting around it, as evidenced by your vain attempts to draw on other sources to dispute scripture's plain language.

That should tell you all you need to know about your argument. Open your eyes, my friend.

---

I quoted Scripture directly. You told me water didn't mean water. Now you're telling me about "plain language."

Anyone can say all they need is Scripture, and there will be as many interpretations as there are people. That's why the history is important. If you want to understand ancient Greek culture, you study ancient Greek writings. This is no different.

---

The verses you quoted talk of baptism, and they talk of water, but none of them plainly state that baptism by water is required to enter Heaven. And once again, such an interpretation completely contradicts numerous statements by both Christ and his apostles regarding what is required, which I have quoted above.

As I said above, it baptism were necessary, Christ would have mentioned it in John Chapter 3, among other verses. But he and the apostles knew that no work or mechanical act could save us, which is why your belief in that position is confined to three verses that don't plainly state what you're suggesting.

---

Well, the whole sola fide concept is deeply erroneous too.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

No, those quotes are the opinions of a particular sect within Christendom.

---

As opposed to whom?

---

The rest of Christendom, of course

---

Example?

---

Let's stick to Scripture. Bringing up humans who disagree with Catholic Church humans is just missing the point.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

J.R. said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

See John 3:5.

---

We discussed this one above, but I will summarize again. Notice that Jesus does not say here, one must be baptized to be saved. Indeed, he says that nowhere in scripture. In fact, all that is required is what he says in his most famous teaching in John Chapter 3 - which also has no mention of Baptism (though it does mention belief). There is no mechanical act required anywhere in scripture.

As I said above, to understand any single verse or passage, we must filter it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). The phrase "born of water and the Spirit" seems to be describing aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be "born again" or "born from above." So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must "be born of water and the Spirit," He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Otherwise, he would have called it baptism, and would have told us it is required to be saved. But he did not.

As I said above, there is no mechanical act required to be saved. The thief next to the cross was not baptized. Belief/repentance always precedes the mechanical act of baptism in scripture. In ever single instance.

---

What's the first thing Jesus does after the dialogue with Nicodemus? What is the second half of the chapter about?

---

Christ's words in John 3:16-18 are clear:

---

And 3:5 isn't?

---

I guess it depends. Is my interpretation of those verses above correct? I believe it is, especially when read in context with Jesus's other words and actions, and his conversation with the thief on the cross. At no place in scripture does Jesus mention Baptism is a requirement.

Yet, you have proffered those verses to support your interpretation that a mechanical act of baptism is required, when Christ did not say that, and it's clearly not something he has ever said in any other place in scripture.

So I now ask you the same question: Are Christ's words in John 3:5 clear? If so, what is he clearly saying, based on the context of his words and actions?

---

I think the best answer is what the Church Fathers and most everyone believed until the Reformation. There are other references in Scripture too, for example 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38-39, and Acts 22:16.

---

Actually, we can go back to Acts to find out what the Church Fathers believed (and I am talking about the Christian church, not a sect like Catholicism). None of the Church Fathers in Acts believed that the mechanical act of Baptism was required.

I've already addressed each of the verses you've referenced above. Bottom line is none can be interpreted to mean any mechanical act is required to be saved, especially when read in context to the plethora of verses that speak to the subject of salvation. Jesus does not say Baptism is required anywhere in scripture. Paul says it is by grace we have been saved, not by works. The thief was with Jesus in paradise, despite no mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking. The idea that baptism is a prerequisite to salvation is simply contrary to the written word.

---

Except the Bible says it is.

---

It really doesn't.
And where the Bible does speak of baptism, it certainly doesn't mean sprinkling a few drops of water on someone, just so we're clear on that.

---

So my kids who grew up Presbyterian and were sprinkled and were sprinkled are going to hell, even though they have repented and have a personal relationship with Christ/God....Just don't buy that.

---

Yup. The idea that some mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking helps one attain salvation stands in stark contrast to all that Christ and his apostles said in scripture And of course, it stands in stark contrast to the thief on the cross next to Christ who - although not baptized - was with Christ in paradise.

---

The sacraments are for us, not for God.

---

So God picks and chooses for whom the sacraments are necessary?

---

The judgment is his, of course.

---

God is not a whimsical God. That's a Pope thing, not the Lord.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

No, those quotes are the opinions of a particular sect within Christendom.

---

As opposed to whom?

---

The rest of Christendom, of course

---

Example?

---

Let's stick to Scripture. Bringing up humans who disagree with Catholic Church humans is just missing the point.

---

But it's your point. You're saying the Church Fathers aren't evidence because they only represent one "sect." What sect would you have us rely on?

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

No, those quotes are the opinions of a particular sect within Christendom.

---

As opposed to whom?

---

The rest of Christendom, of course

---

Example?

---

Let's stick to Scripture. Bringing up humans who disagree with Catholic Church humans is just missing the point.

---

But it's your point. You're saying the Church Fathers aren't evidence because they only represent one "sect." What sect would you have us rely on?

---

No, I say humans do not speak for God. You, obviously, feel differently on that point.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

No, those quotes are the opinions of a particular sect within Christendom.

---

As opposed to whom?

---

The rest of Christendom, of course

---

Example?

---

Let's stick to Scripture. Bringing up humans who disagree with Catholic Church humans is just missing the point.

---

But it's your point. You're saying the Church Fathers aren't evidence because they only represent one "sect." What sect would you have us rely on?

---

No, I say humans do not speak for God. You, obviously, feel differently on that point.

---

The authors of Scripture spoke for God. Other authors speak as historical witnesses to how the Scriptures were understood by their audience. What evidence would you offer?

"The authors of Scripture spoke for God. "

Incorrect. God spoke through Scripture, there is zero proof that the leaders following Christ's ascension into heaven spoke in His place, or had authority to alter His teaching.

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The authors of Scripture spoke for God. "

Incorrect. God spoke through Scripture, there is zero proof that the leaders following Christ's ascension into heaven spoke in His place, or had authority to alter His teaching.

---

That's true. Now about my question?

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

You've lost the argument when you have to go outside of scripture to support your position.

As we all know, man has misinterpreted scripture throughout history.

---

You're going outside of Scripture too. You're just relying on yourself (and Zwingli) instead of the Church that gave you the Scripture to begin with.

---

Quoting scripture directly is not going outside of scripture my friend. I know you have been conditioned to believe that scripture can only be understood through the Catholic Church. That is error.

All I need to support my beliefs is the scripture I have given you. There is no getting around it, as evidenced by your vain attempts to draw on other sources to dispute scripture's plain language.

That should tell you all you need to know about your argument. Open your eyes, my friend.

---

I quoted Scripture directly. You told me water didn't mean water. Now you're telling me about "plain language."

Anyone can say all they need is Scripture, and there will be as many interpretations as there are people. That's why the history is important. If you want to understand ancient Greek culture, you study ancient Greek writings. This is no different.

---

The verses you quoted talk of baptism, and they talk of water, but none of them plainly state that baptism by water is required to enter Heaven. And once again, such an interpretation completely contradicts numerous statements by both Christ and his apostles regarding what is required, which I have quoted above.

As I said above, it baptism were necessary, Christ would have mentioned it in John Chapter 3, among other verses. But he and the apostles knew that no work or mechanical act could save us, which is why your belief in that position is confined to three verses that don't plainly state what you're suggesting.

---

Well, the whole sola fide concept is deeply erroneous too.

---

I am not surprised as a Catholic you believe good works are required to get to Heaven. Catholics have for centuries believed in such heresy. Problem is it is exactly that - heresy.

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 10:9-10: "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Luke 7:50: Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 20:31 "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

Luke 5:20 "Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The authors of Scripture spoke for God. "

Incorrect. God spoke through Scripture, there is zero proof that the leaders following Christ's ascension into heaven spoke in His place, or had authority to alter His teaching.

---

That's true. Now about my question?

---

Already said I will stick with God's word, not Pope's word.

J.R. said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

See John 3:5.

---

We discussed this one above, but I will summarize again. Notice that Jesus does not say here, one must be baptized to be saved. Indeed, he says that nowhere in scripture. In fact, all that is required is what he says in his most famous teaching in John Chapter 3 - which also has no mention of Baptism (though it does mention belief). There is no mechanical act required anywhere in scripture.

As I said above, to understand any single verse or passage, we must filter it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). The phrase "born of water and the Spirit" seems to be describing aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be "born again" or "born from above." So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must "be born of water and the Spirit," He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Otherwise, he would have called it baptism, and would have told us it is required to be saved. But he did not.

As I said above, there is no mechanical act required to be saved. The thief next to the cross was not baptized. Belief/repentance always precedes the mechanical act of baptism in scripture. In ever single instance.

---

What's the first thing Jesus does after the dialogue with Nicodemus? What is the second half of the chapter about?

---

Christ's words in John 3:16-18 are clear:

---

And 3:5 isn't?

---

I guess it depends. Is my interpretation of those verses above correct? I believe it is, especially when read in context with Jesus's other words and actions, and his conversation with the thief on the cross. At no place in scripture does Jesus mention Baptism is a requirement.

Yet, you have proffered those verses to support your interpretation that a mechanical act of baptism is required, when Christ did not say that, and it's clearly not something he has ever said in any other place in scripture.

So I now ask you the same question: Are Christ's words in John 3:5 clear? If so, what is he clearly saying, based on the context of his words and actions?

---

I think the best answer is what the Church Fathers and most everyone believed until the Reformation. There are other references in Scripture too, for example 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38-39, and Acts 22:16.

---

Actually, we can go back to Acts to find out what the Church Fathers believed (and I am talking about the Christian church, not a sect like Catholicism). None of the Church Fathers in Acts believed that the mechanical act of Baptism was required.

I've already addressed each of the verses you've referenced above. Bottom line is none can be interpreted to mean any mechanical act is required to be saved, especially when read in context to the plethora of verses that speak to the subject of salvation. Jesus does not say Baptism is required anywhere in scripture. Paul says it is by grace we have been saved, not by works. The thief was with Jesus in paradise, despite no mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking. The idea that baptism is a prerequisite to salvation is simply contrary to the written word.

---

Except the Bible says it is.

---

It really doesn't.
And where the Bible does speak of baptism, it certainly doesn't mean sprinkling a few drops of water on someone, just so we're clear on that.

---

So my kids who grew up Presbyterian and were sprinkled and were sprinkled are going to hell, even though they have repented and have a personal relationship with Christ/God....Just don't buy that.

---

I am not selling that, and I have no idea where you got the idea that I was.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The authors of Scripture spoke for God. "

Incorrect. God spoke through Scripture, there is zero proof that the leaders following Christ's ascension into heaven spoke in His place, or had authority to alter His teaching.

---

That's true. Now about my question?

---

Already said I will stick with God's word, not Pope's word.

---

So when you say "the rest of Christendom," you mean...you?

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Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

You've lost the argument when you have to go outside of scripture to support your position.

As we all know, man has misinterpreted scripture throughout history.

---

You're going outside of Scripture too. You're just relying on yourself (and Zwingli) instead of the Church that gave you the Scripture to begin with.

---

Quoting scripture directly is not going outside of scripture my friend. I know you have been conditioned to believe that scripture can only be understood through the Catholic Church. That is error.

All I need to support my beliefs is the scripture I have given you. There is no getting around it, as evidenced by your vain attempts to draw on other sources to dispute scripture's plain language.

That should tell you all you need to know about your argument. Open your eyes, my friend.

---

I quoted Scripture directly. You told me water didn't mean water. Now you're telling me about "plain language."

Anyone can say all they need is Scripture, and there will be as many interpretations as there are people. That's why the history is important. If you want to understand ancient Greek culture, you study ancient Greek writings. This is no different.

---

The verses you quoted talk of baptism, and they talk of water, but none of them plainly state that baptism by water is required to enter Heaven. And once again, such an interpretation completely contradicts numerous statements by both Christ and his apostles regarding what is required, which I have quoted above.

As I said above, it baptism were necessary, Christ would have mentioned it in John Chapter 3, among other verses. But he and the apostles knew that no work or mechanical act could save us, which is why your belief in that position is confined to three verses that don't plainly state what you're suggesting.

---

Well, the whole sola fide concept is deeply erroneous too.

---

I am not surprised as a Catholic you believe good works are required to get to Heaven. Catholics have for centuries believed in such heresy. Problem is it is exactly that - heresy.

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 10:9-10: "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Luke 7:50: Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 20:31 "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

Luke 5:20 "Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

---

You're trying to read these passages like a contract, but they aren't written that way. They emphasize belief because belief was the issue for 99 percent of people. Rarely would the Apostles have dealt with anyone who professed belief but rebelled over baptism (it would be another 1500 years before such captious spirits were common). Yet wherever baptism is mentioned, its saving power is affirmed.

Sam Lowry said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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"The authors of Scripture spoke for God. "

Incorrect. God spoke through Scripture, there is zero proof that the leaders following Christ's ascension into heaven spoke in His place, or had authority to alter His teaching.

---

That's true. Now about my question?

---

Already said I will stick with God's word, not Pope's word.

---

So when you say "the rest of Christendom," you mean...you?

---

Nope. Try again w/o the Rome filter.

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

You've lost the argument when you have to go outside of scripture to support your position.

As we all know, man has misinterpreted scripture throughout history.

---

You're going outside of Scripture too. You're just relying on yourself (and Zwingli) instead of the Church that gave you the Scripture to begin with.

---

Quoting scripture directly is not going outside of scripture my friend. I know you have been conditioned to believe that scripture can only be understood through the Catholic Church. That is error.

All I need to support my beliefs is the scripture I have given you. There is no getting around it, as evidenced by your vain attempts to draw on other sources to dispute scripture's plain language.

That should tell you all you need to know about your argument. Open your eyes, my friend.

---

I quoted Scripture directly. You told me water didn't mean water. Now you're telling me about "plain language."

Anyone can say all they need is Scripture, and there will be as many interpretations as there are people. That's why the history is important. If you want to understand ancient Greek culture, you study ancient Greek writings. This is no different.

---

The verses you quoted talk of baptism, and they talk of water, but none of them plainly state that baptism by water is required to enter Heaven. And once again, such an interpretation completely contradicts numerous statements by both Christ and his apostles regarding what is required, which I have quoted above.

As I said above, it baptism were necessary, Christ would have mentioned it in John Chapter 3, among other verses. But he and the apostles knew that no work or mechanical act could save us, which is why your belief in that position is confined to three verses that don't plainly state what you're suggesting.

---

Well, the whole sola fide concept is deeply erroneous too.

---

I am not surprised as a Catholic you believe good works are required to get to Heaven. Catholics have for centuries believed in such heresy. Problem is it is exactly that - heresy.

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 10:9-10: "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Luke 7:50: Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 20:31 "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

Luke 5:20 "Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

---

You're trying to read these passages like a contract, but they aren't written that way. They emphasize belief because belief was the issue for 99 percent of people. Rarely would the Apostles have dealt with anyone who professed belief but rebelled over baptism (it would be another 1500 years before such captious spirits were common). Yet wherever baptism is mentioned, its saving power is affirmed.

---

There is no "saving power" in water. If there was, then forced baptism would be an excellent policy. Baptism is a symbolic act of someone who, through faith, has already experienced Jesus' saving power. It is important, but it is not the means by which that saving power is experienced.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

You've lost the argument when you have to go outside of scripture to support your position.

As we all know, man has misinterpreted scripture throughout history.

---

You're going outside of Scripture too. You're just relying on yourself (and Zwingli) instead of the Church that gave you the Scripture to begin with.

---

Quoting scripture directly is not going outside of scripture my friend. I know you have been conditioned to believe that scripture can only be understood through the Catholic Church. That is error.

All I need to support my beliefs is the scripture I have given you. There is no getting around it, as evidenced by your vain attempts to draw on other sources to dispute scripture's plain language.

That should tell you all you need to know about your argument. Open your eyes, my friend.

---

I quoted Scripture directly. You told me water didn't mean water. Now you're telling me about "plain language."

Anyone can say all they need is Scripture, and there will be as many interpretations as there are people. That's why the history is important. If you want to understand ancient Greek culture, you study ancient Greek writings. This is no different.

---

The verses you quoted talk of baptism, and they talk of water, but none of them plainly state that baptism by water is required to enter Heaven. And once again, such an interpretation completely contradicts numerous statements by both Christ and his apostles regarding what is required, which I have quoted above.

As I said above, it baptism were necessary, Christ would have mentioned it in John Chapter 3, among other verses. But he and the apostles knew that no work or mechanical act could save us, which is why your belief in that position is confined to three verses that don't plainly state what you're suggesting.

---

Well, the whole sola fide concept is deeply erroneous too.

---

I am not surprised as a Catholic you believe good works are required to get to Heaven. Catholics have for centuries believed in such heresy. Problem is it is exactly that - heresy.

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 10:9-10: "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Luke 7:50: Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 20:31 "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

Luke 5:20 "Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

---

You're trying to read these passages like a contract, but they aren't written that way. They emphasize belief because belief was the issue for 99 percent of people. Rarely would the Apostles have dealt with anyone who professed belief but rebelled over baptism (it would be another 1500 years before such captious spirits were common). Yet wherever baptism is mentioned, its saving power is affirmed.

---

You can continue to try to explain it away, split hairs and parse words all you want, but there is no denying the overriding theme of NT scripture is that salvation comes through faith and grace, and not by works. Paul could not be any more clear on the subject in Ephesians 2:8-9. It is illogical that he would specifically instruct us that works cannot save you, if he (and God) didn't actually mean what they said and were merely trying to emphasize the belief aspect.

Indeed, all of the verses I cited are likewise clear on the subject. Faith and belief are what is required of man, not works, and certainly not any mechanical act of sprinkling water on babies (yet another position on which the Catholic Church gets it wrong). Belief/repentance ALWAYS preceded baptism in scripture (something no infant could ever do).

As I said above, I have a number of Catholic friends and neighbors. I see them constantly at church, constantly doing things and performing extra-scriptural rituals which they believe somehow save them. I feel sad for them, that they completely miss grace, the most important aspect of NT scripture - that they don't understand that no work we will ever do will make us worthy of salvation. They perform acts that will not save them, but for each it is never enough because they cannot be sure they are saved. It is entirely unnecessary.

As the Lord says in scripture:

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:23-27.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

A few more references:

"'I have heard, sir,' said I...'that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (Hermas, AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly...are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Justin Martyr, AD 151)

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, AD 203)

"Perhaps someone will ask, 'What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?' In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible." (Hippolytus, AD 217)

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism." (Origen, AD 235)

---

Those are not Scripture.

Please do not promote men to God, especially on this issue.

---

They are evidence of what the words meant in the context of their time.

---

You've lost the argument when you have to go outside of scripture to support your position.

As we all know, man has misinterpreted scripture throughout history.

---

You're going outside of Scripture too. You're just relying on yourself (and Zwingli) instead of the Church that gave you the Scripture to begin with.

---

Quoting scripture directly is not going outside of scripture my friend. I know you have been conditioned to believe that scripture can only be understood through the Catholic Church. That is error.

All I need to support my beliefs is the scripture I have given you. There is no getting around it, as evidenced by your vain attempts to draw on other sources to dispute scripture's plain language.

That should tell you all you need to know about your argument. Open your eyes, my friend.

---

I quoted Scripture directly. You told me water didn't mean water. Now you're telling me about "plain language."

Anyone can say all they need is Scripture, and there will be as many interpretations as there are people. That's why the history is important. If you want to understand ancient Greek culture, you study ancient Greek writings. This is no different.

---

The verses you quoted talk of baptism, and they talk of water, but none of them plainly state that baptism by water is required to enter Heaven. And once again, such an interpretation completely contradicts numerous statements by both Christ and his apostles regarding what is required, which I have quoted above.

As I said above, it baptism were necessary, Christ would have mentioned it in John Chapter 3, among other verses. But he and the apostles knew that no work or mechanical act could save us, which is why your belief in that position is confined to three verses that don't plainly state what you're suggesting.

---

Well, the whole sola fide concept is deeply erroneous too.

---

I am not surprised as a Catholic you believe good works are required to get to Heaven. Catholics have for centuries believed in such heresy. Problem is it is exactly that - heresy.

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 10:9-10: "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Luke 7:50: Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 20:31 "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

Luke 5:20 "Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

---

You're trying to read these passages like a contract, but they aren't written that way. They emphasize belief because belief was the issue for 99 percent of people. Rarely would the Apostles have dealt with anyone who professed belief but rebelled over baptism (it would be another 1500 years before such captious spirits were common). Yet wherever baptism is mentioned, its saving power is affirmed.

---

You can continue to try to explain it away, split hairs and parse words all you want, but there is no denying the overriding theme of NT scripture is that salvation comes through faith and grace, and not by works. Paul could not be any more clear on the subject in Ephesians 2:8-9. It is illogical that he would specifically instruct us that works cannot save you, if he (and God) didn't actually mean what they said and were merely trying to emphasize the belief aspect.

Indeed, all of the verses I cited are likewise clear on the subject. Faith and belief are what is required of man, not works, and certainly not any mechanical act of sprinkling water on babies (yet another position on which the Catholic Church gets it wrong). Belief/repentance ALWAYS preceded baptism in scripture (something no infant could ever do).

As I said above, I have a number of Catholic friends and neighbors. I see them constantly at church, constantly doing things and performing extra-scriptural rituals which they believe somehow save them. I feel sad for them, that they completely miss grace, the most important aspect of NT scripture - that they don't understand that no work we will ever do will make us worthy of salvation. They perform acts that will not save them, but for each it is never enough because they cannot be sure they are saved. It is entirely unnecessary.

As the Lord says in scripture:

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:23-27.

---

See James 2:14, John 5:28-29, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 2:5-13, 2 Cor 5:10, Phil 2:12, Acts 10:34-35, 1 John 5:1-3, Matthew 12:36-37, 2 Corinthians 9:10-11, Colossians 1:24.

You simply cannot earn Heaven.

James 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?"

In context James says in verse 18, "I will show you my faith by my deeds", so that faith remains vital. James was not saying works are what matter, he was saying be sure your faith is real enough that it bears fruit, as all servants produce work for their master.

John 5:28-29 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come outthose who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Note that this speaks of those "who are in their graves", while in verse 24 Jesus said "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
Those are two different groups of people.

Luke 10:25-28 "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Do you think you have kept that command fully? Do you think anyone apart from Christ fully kept that command?

Romans 2:5-13 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will repay each person according to what they have done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

Again, do you seriously believe your works will stand up to God's scrutiny? Do you seriously believe you can stand before God and withstand his judgment?

Do you not know these scriptures?

Psalm 14:1b "There is no one who does good"
Psalm 14:3 "All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."
Mark 10:18b Jesus answered "No one is good except God alone." (also Luke 18:19)
Romans 3:12 "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Note that this passage from Romans you quoted was directed to believers who are already in Christ. That is, they were redeemed by Grace and God's love, so that they were able to do works which might please God, and this passage is warning against falling away, against losing faith which would be revealed by the poor character of their behavior.

2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Again, this passage was directed to believers already in Christ, see answer above.

Phil 2:12 "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyednot only in my presence, but now much more in my absencecontinue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

Again, speaking to believes already redeemed. This does not say that works are salvation, but that the manner in which we work reflects our heart and character, whether we live in faith or in the old nature.


Acts 10:34-35 "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right."

Again, written to believers already saved.

1 John 5:1-3 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome"

Once again, written to believers already saved, and is speaking about how we may serve the Lord, not that works will save.

Matthew 12:36-37 "But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

To understand this verse, consider what Christ said immediately before that:

Verse 35 " A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him."

God stores up in a man what that man loves, and no man can create good without God granting that Grace. And immediately after that verse, Jesus warns "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."

Do not think your works will save you.

2 Corinthians 9:10-11 "Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God."

Again, this is instruction to believers already in the body of Christ.

Colossians 1:24 "Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."

And once again, this is instruction to believers on serving the Father and the Church, not creating merit through their works.

Oldbear83 said:

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You simply cannot earn Heaven.

---

No Catholic ever said you could.

But you can certainly lose it.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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You simply cannot earn Heaven.

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No Catholic ever said you could.

But you can certainly lose it.

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Actually, that is exactly what Sam is saying.