Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
See John 3:5.
We discussed this one above, but I will summarize again. Notice that Jesus does not say here, one must be baptized to be saved. Indeed, he says that nowhere in scripture. In fact, all that is required is what he says in his most famous teaching in John Chapter 3 - which also has no mention of Baptism (though it does mention belief). There is no mechanical act required anywhere in scripture.
As I said above, to understand any single verse or passage, we must filter it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). The phrase "born of water and the Spirit" seems to be describing aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be "born again" or "born from above." So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must "be born of water and the Spirit," He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Otherwise, he would have called it baptism, and would have told us it is required to be saved. But he did not.
As I said above, there is no mechanical act required to be saved. The thief next to the cross was not baptized. Belief/repentance always precedes the mechanical act of baptism in scripture. In ever single instance.
What's the first thing Jesus does after the dialogue with Nicodemus? What is the second half of the chapter about?
Christ's words in John 3:16-18 are clear:
And 3:5 isn't?
I guess it depends. Is my interpretation of those verses above correct? I believe it is, especially when read in context with Jesus's other words and actions, and his conversation with the thief on the cross. At no place in scripture does Jesus mention Baptism is a requirement.
Yet, you have proffered those verses to support your interpretation that a mechanical act of baptism is required, when Christ did not say that, and it's clearly not something he has ever said in any other place in scripture.
So I now ask you the same question: Are Christ's words in John 3:5 clear? If so, what is he clearly saying, based on the context of his words and actions?
I think the best answer is what the Church Fathers and most everyone believed until the Reformation. There are other references in Scripture too, for example 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38-39, and Acts 22:16.
Actually, we can go back to Acts to find out what the Church Fathers believed (and I am talking about the Christian church, not a sect like Catholicism). None of the Church Fathers in Acts believed that the mechanical act of Baptism was required.
I've already addressed each of the verses you've referenced above. Bottom line is none can be interpreted to mean any mechanical act is required to be saved, especially when read in context to the plethora of verses that speak to the subject of salvation. Jesus does not say Baptism is required anywhere in scripture. Paul says it is by grace we have been saved, not by works. The thief was with Jesus in paradise, despite no mechanical act of sprinkling or dunking. The idea that baptism is a prerequisite to salvation is simply contrary to the written word.
Except the Bible says it is.
Actually, it doesn't. Sure, you've interpreted a couple of verses to mean as much, but that's not at all what they say. What I said above bears repeating regarding your erroneous position:
Scripture is clear that salvation cannot be attained by the works of man. As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.
Christians were expected, even commanded, to be baptized. However, scripture is clear that the act of baptism is an expression of faith and obedience, not the means of salvation. (See Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:35.) Is Peter contradicting that idea when he writes that baptism now saves us? is Christ contradicting his words in John 3:16-18 that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life and that whoever believes in him is not condemned (notice no mention of baptism in these verses)? Of course not. Clearly, based on their other teachings and writings, neither Christ nor Peter is suggesting that the mechanical act of being baptized is what makes a person saved for eternity. Instead, taking the verses as a whole, they seem to be saying that the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead saves us. It is this resurrection which Christians publicly express their faith in when being baptized.
Finally, I point you to the thief on the cross next to Christ. He committed crimes worthy of death, yet he was the very first Christian. Because of his mere belief, Christ told him, "Today, you will be with me in paradise." I don't recall scripture talking about him being baptized while he was crucified, do you? Nope. Instead, it was his faith that saved him.
