The Decline of Mainline Christianity In America
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Last: 4 yr ago by Waco1947
You can get woke liberalism anywhere these days...news, schools, government, heck even Disney shows are woke.
Why spend (waste) your Sunday mornings and pay (tithe) for the privilege of it?
The mainline churches simply put serve no purpose.
Why spend (waste) your Sunday mornings and pay (tithe) for the privilege of it?
The mainline churches simply put serve no purpose.
Haven't watched it, but I'm going to guess the Jew hating comes in around the seven minute mark.
Church of Christ is considered "mainline"?!?!
CammoTX said:
Church of Christ is considered "mainline"?!?!
Probably Disciples of Christ or United Church of Christ
I guess first off, never trust a guy that buttons the top of his shirt without a tie.
And second, denominations were invented by man because they interpreted a cryptic book differently than their neighbor. They were created to suit different personality types to fit their own world view. Not concerning that they are in decline.
And second, denominations were invented by man because they interpreted a cryptic book differently than their neighbor. They were created to suit different personality types to fit their own world view. Not concerning that they are in decline.
CammoTX said:
Church of Christ is considered "mainline"?!?!
United Church of Christ...is a singe unified mainline church often found in cities all across the USA and primarily northern areas of the country. Very progressive (pro-LGBT, women pastors, ect). Has around 800,000 members and dropping fast.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ
Churches of Christ is a low church evangelical denomination, very conservative, found all over the USA but mostly in southern small towns and cities. All the churches are independent. Has about 2 million members.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ.
When you drive through a small Texas town and see a Baptist church, a Methodist church, and a Church of Christ....that is the "church of Christ" most people are thinking about.
Both share a similar name but are very very theological different.
Same as how the 'American Baptist churches USA' and the 'Southern Baptist convention' both use the name "Baptist" to describe themselves...but they are very different culturally and theologically.
The Jews are being attacked and dodging rockets as we speak. Thank you so much for your compassion and concern!Sam Lowry said:
Haven't watched it, but I'm going to guess the Jew hating comes in around the seven minute mark.
"Stand with anyone when he is right; Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." - Abraham Lincoln
I was making fun of FTW for his history of anti-Semitic posts. Unfairly in this case, as the video is actually pretty good. My bad this time.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:The Jews are being attacked and dodging rockets as we speak. Thank you so much for your compassion and concern!Sam Lowry said:
Haven't watched it, but I'm going to guess the Jew hating comes in around the seven minute mark.
Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
YepMothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Considering it was classical liberalism and not woke leftism back then, probably.C. Jordan said:Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
It was calls for social justice and moderation on the abortion issue.Doc Holliday said:Considering it was classical liberalism and not woke leftism back then, probably.C. Jordan said:Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
And the Palestinians? Children killed. What lunacy.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:The Jews are being attacked and dodging rockets as we speak. Thank you so much for your compassion and concern!Sam Lowry said:
Haven't watched it, but I'm going to guess the Jew hating comes in around the seven minute mark.
I was thinking of church growth in a global setting. If you dig a bit deeper into missionary literature, you'll find that the fastest-growing brand of Christianity in a global sense is Pentecostalism with a prosperity bent. My missionary friends in Africa and S. America testify to it as well.Mothra said:A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
My point is equating church growth with conservatism and biblical faithfulness is a tricky proposition. The fact that a church or denomination is growing or declining isn't necessarily in indicator of its faithfulness to the scriptures. Growth and decline comes from a complex interaction of theology, demographics, birth rates, social change, and more.
What we should be talking about more is the fastest-growing segment of the American population: the Nones. They're people who've dropped out of church for various reasons. Many of them are spiritual, but don't identify with any religion. I run into them every day. They've dropped out of both conservative and liberal churches.
Interestingly, conservative theology and church membership and attendance aren't as connected as they once were. For example, a considerable number of people identify themselves as evangelical but don't attend church. This doesn't make sense to me, but it's a reality.
Also, I think the conservatism/liberalism of the church is less important than its sense of mission. I've seen conservative churches with no sense of mission or real evangelism. And I've seen liberal churches with both. So until the mentality of church folks changes, it doesn't matter if they're liberal or conservative. Their churches are going to die.
"Non-denominational" churches are a denomination. Scratch the surface of any of them and they share the same doctrine. For instance; They "love" gays but if they don't change or stay chaste then they have a one way ticket to hell. Or blood atonement or replacing service with only praise.
The real issue is the real world where God is not all powerful.
The church has yet to wrestle with that issue.
There is a way forward but the evangelical world digs their heels n
The real issue is the real world where God is not all powerful.
The church has yet to wrestle with that issue.
There is a way forward but the evangelical world digs their heels n
Yes, I agree the prosperity gospel is a big player in Africa in particular. I cannot comment on S. America, but wouldn't be surprised.C. Jordan said:I was thinking of church growth in a global setting. If you dig a bit deeper into missionary literature, you'll find that the fastest-growing brand of Christianity in a global sense is Pentecostalism with a prosperity bent. My missionary friends in Africa and S. America testify to it as well.Mothra said:A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
My point is equating church growth with conservatism and biblical faithfulness is a tricky proposition. The fact that a church or denomination is growing or declining isn't necessarily in indicator of its faithfulness to the scriptures. Growth and decline comes from a complex interaction of theology, demographics, birth rates, social change, and more.
What we should be talking about more is the fastest-growing segment of the American population: the Nones. They're people who've dropped out of church for various reasons. Many of them are spiritual, but don't identify with any religion. I run into them every day. They've dropped out of both conservative and liberal churches.
Interestingly, conservative theology and church membership and attendance aren't as connected as they once were. For example, a considerable number of people identify themselves as evangelical but don't attend church. This doesn't make sense to me, but it's a reality.
Also, I think the conservatism/liberalism of the church is less important than its sense of mission. I've seen conservative churches with no sense of mission or real evangelism. And I've seen liberal churches with both. So until the mentality of church folks changes, it doesn't matter if they're liberal or conservative. Their churches are going to die.
My position does not suggest that false teachings cannot take hold and gain a following. Indeed, they can and have - throughout Church history. I am also not suggesting that the ONLY reason that the bible church is growing is because it's conservative, though I think there is really no disputing that adherence to the fundamentals is a huge part of it's growing membership. Part and parcel with adherence to the fundamentals is a heavy emphasis on the mission field. Indeed, more than half of my bible church's annual budget goes to the mission field, which would I suspect would be highly unusual in one of the traditional denominations. Christ did call us to be fishers of men after all.
So, where we are going to disagree is on the last part. I believe there is strong evidence that the reason the Bible church is growing, and the traditional denominations are declining is indeed because of the former's adherence to the fundamentals. It's extremely rare to find a liberal church nowdays that is thriving.
Interesting idea but I don't think it pans out.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Because using the terms "liberal" or "conservative" was basically foolish to use for the inter-Baptist fights of the 70s & 80s.
That referred to various arguments around biblical inerrancy, doctrine, etc.
Everything is now poisoned with the over use of the terms "liberal" and "conservative".
I mean Liz Cheney, a war monger and corporate worshipping mammon lover who was born is Wisconsin to a war mongering deep state serving father who was born in Nebraska (yankees through and through), dares call herself a conservative.
Jimmy Carter is far far more conservative than Liz Cheney. And yet describes himself as a liberal.
I would bet you the average Dallas Tx area southern baptist self-described "conservative" today would come off as a left progressive on many issues (race, doctrine, sexual issues, etc.) compared to the average self-described "liberal" Lufkin Tx southern Baptist in 1970.
No one seriously believes the average church going Southern Baptist in 1970 was more "liberal" than the average church going Southern Baptist in 2020.
Non-denominational churches come in all shapes and sizes. If by non-denominational you mean "Bible" churches, well yes, my experience with those I have attended is that they are going to adhere to scripture on the subject of homosexuality, among other subjects. That's the way it should be of course for true Christians.Waco1947 said:
"Non-denominational" churches are a denomination. Scratch the surface of any of them and they share the same doctrine. For instance; They "love" gays but if they don't change or stay chaste then they have a one way ticket to hell. Or blood atonement or replacing service with only praise.
The real issue is the real world where God is not all powerful.
The church has yet to wrestle with that issue.
There is a way forward but the evangelical world digs their heels n
The Methodist Church has shown us a clear example of what happens when denominations adopt non-biblical positions on subjects such as homosexuality. Its dying a slow death, with declining membership across the board. As I suggested above, it's what often times happens when a church conforms to the world instead of vice versa.
Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Quote:
In fact, over the last four decades, there has been a 400% increase in Protestants who identify as nondenominational. The sky still isn't falling on American Christianity or evangelicalism. ... American Christianity is becoming more nondenominational and more evangelical at the same time.
CNN
Specifics of growth however....
What is the fastest-growing form of Christianity in the world today?
Pentecostalism represents one of the fastest-growing segments of global Christianity, according to the Pew Research Center website. Oct 12, 2019
What is the fastest-growing form of Christianity in the world today?
Pentecostalism represents one of the fastest-growing segments of global Christianity, according to the Pew Research Center website. Oct 12, 2019
Nondenominational churches as whole are growing because more Christians are disillusioned with denominations. The great majority of people who are going to these Bible churches weren't "lost" people joining. And the great majority aren't coming from Mainstream churches. They're coming from conservative denominational churches. Even Bible churches adhere to fewer doctrinal details than denominational churches of the past.Mothra said:Yes, I agree the prosperity gospel is a big player in Africa in particular. I cannot comment on S. America, but wouldn't be surprised.C. Jordan said:I was thinking of church growth in a global setting. If you dig a bit deeper into missionary literature, you'll find that the fastest-growing brand of Christianity in a global sense is Pentecostalism with a prosperity bent. My missionary friends in Africa and S. America testify to it as well.Mothra said:A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
My point is equating church growth with conservatism and biblical faithfulness is a tricky proposition. The fact that a church or denomination is growing or declining isn't necessarily in indicator of its faithfulness to the scriptures. Growth and decline comes from a complex interaction of theology, demographics, birth rates, social change, and more.
What we should be talking about more is the fastest-growing segment of the American population: the Nones. They're people who've dropped out of church for various reasons. Many of them are spiritual, but don't identify with any religion. I run into them every day. They've dropped out of both conservative and liberal churches.
Interestingly, conservative theology and church membership and attendance aren't as connected as they once were. For example, a considerable number of people identify themselves as evangelical but don't attend church. This doesn't make sense to me, but it's a reality.
Also, I think the conservatism/liberalism of the church is less important than its sense of mission. I've seen conservative churches with no sense of mission or real evangelism. And I've seen liberal churches with both. So until the mentality of church folks changes, it doesn't matter if they're liberal or conservative. Their churches are going to die.
My position does not suggest that false teachings cannot take hold and gain a following. Indeed, they can and have - throughout Church history. I am also not suggesting that the ONLY reason that the bible church is growing is because it's conservative, though I think there is really no disputing that adherence to the fundamentals is a huge part of it's growing membership. Part and parcel with adherence to the fundamentals is a heavy emphasis on the mission field. Indeed, more than half of my bible church's annual budget goes to the mission field, which would I suspect would be highly unusual in one of the traditional denominations. Christ did call us to be fishers of men after all.
So, where we are going to disagree is on the last part. I believe there is strong evidence that the reason the Bible church is growing, and the traditional denominations are declining is indeed because of the former's adherence to the fundamentals. It's extremely rare to find a liberal church nowdays that is thriving.
These are the trends I've seen over the last 50 years. Mainstream denominational churches to more evangelical denominational churches. More evangelical denominational churches to nondenominational churches. Nondenominational churches to no church.
I've also seen even among conservative churches that the issues people regard as most important have shifted radically. 50 years ago, issues like the meaning of baptism and the Lord's Supper, the nature of church governance, the nature of the Trinity, the nature of Christ, etc., were really important. Today, they've been replaced by abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and loyalty to Trump.
So matters of salvation have become less important among people who identify as biblically conservative and cultural issues have become much more important.
Sounds like the United Methodist Church or a liberal Baptist church. I hear reports of activists moving on abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and Trump.C. Jordan said:Mothra said:Yes, I agree the prosperity gospel is a big player in Africa in particular. I cannot comment on S. America, but wouldn't be surprised.C. Jordan said:I was thinking of church growth in a global setting. If you dig a bit deeper into missionary literature, you'll find that the fastest-growing brand of Christianity in a global sense is Pentecostalism with a prosperity bent. My missionary friends in Africa and S. America testify to it as well.Mothra said:A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
My point is equating church growth with conservatism and biblical faithfulness is a tricky proposition. The fact that a church or denomination is growing or declining isn't necessarily in indicator of its faithfulness to the scriptures. Growth and decline comes from a complex interaction of theology, demographics, birth rates, social change, and more.
What we should be talking about more is the fastest-growing segment of the American population: the Nones. They're people who've dropped out of church for various reasons. Many of them are spiritual, but don't identify with any religion. I run into them every day. They've dropped out of both conservative and liberal churches.
Interestingly, conservative theology and church membership and attendance aren't as connected as they once were. For example, a considerable number of people identify themselves as evangelical but don't attend church. This doesn't make sense to me, but it's a reality.
Also, I think the conservatism/liberalism of the church is less important than its sense of mission. I've seen conservative churches with no sense of mission or real evangelism. And I've seen liberal churches with both. So until the mentality of church folks changes, it doesn't matter if they're liberal or conservative. Their churches are going to die.
My position does not suggest that false teachings cannot take hold and gain a following. Indeed, they can and have - throughout Church history. I am also not suggesting that the ONLY reason that the bible church is growing is because it's conservative, though I think there is really no disputing that adherence to the fundamentals is a huge part of it's growing membership. Part and parcel with adherence to the fundamentals is a heavy emphasis on the mission field. Indeed, more than half of my bible church's annual budget goes to the mission field, which would I suspect would be highly unusual in one of the traditional denominations. Christ did call us to be fishers of men after all.
So, where we are going to disagree is on the last part. I believe there is strong evidence that the reason the Bible church is growing, and the traditional denominations are declining is indeed because of the former's adherence to the fundamentals. It's extremely rare to find a liberal church nowdays that is thriving.
Today, they've been replaced by abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and loyalty to Trump.
So matters of salvation have become less important among people who identify as biblically conservative and cultural issues have become much more important.
Not so much on salvation
I do. The average Southern Baptist today is much more conservative than the average SB in the era I described. If for no other reason than the Fundamentalist takeover of the SBC in the 1980s drove out the more progressive faction of the SBC. I know because I was there. I attended the conventions. The seminaries are far more conservative. Those who drove out the progressives claimed that when the SBC was purged of liberals, revival would come and with revival would come exponential growth.Redbrickbear said:Interesting idea but I don't think it pans out.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Because using the terms "liberal" or "conservative" was basically foolish to use for the inter-Baptist fights of the 70s & 80s.
That referred to various arguments around biblical inerrancy, doctrine, etc.
Everything is now poisoned with the over use of the terms "liberal" and "conservative".
I mean Liz Cheney, a war monger and corporate worshipping mammon lover who was born is Wisconsin to a war mongering deep state serving father who was born in Nebraska (yankees through and through), dares call herself a conservative.
Jimmy Carter is far far more conservative than Liz Cheney. And yet describes himself as a liberal.
I would bet you the average Dallas Tx area southern baptist self-described "conservative" today would come off as a left progressive on many issues (race, doctrine, sexual issues, etc.) compared to the average self-described "liberal" Lufkin Tx southern Baptist in 1970.
No one seriously believes the average church going Southern Baptist in 1970 was more "liberal" than the average church going Southern Baptist in 2020.
Of course, neither happened. The SBC is declining rapidly, probably just as steeply as Methodists, if you look at real numbers, not fictional ones like membership.
Prior to the 1980s, there were professors at seminaries who didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus, didn't believe in the virgin birth, thought the OT patriarchs weren't historical, etc. Also the SBC passed a moderate resolution on abortion. So, yes, the SBC was significantly less conservative than it was in those days.
The difference is that it was a big tent. SBs ranged from liberal to pretty progressive. But they all united around missions. The new SBC leaders replaced missions with doctrinal conformity and culture war.
We definitely have common ground on shifting ideas of conservative and liberal. 50 years ago, people who would have described themselves as biblically conservative would have been against drinking alcohol, gambling, divorce, and sex before marriage. Now, many who describe themselves that way have no problem with these things.
Yep. And a significant chunk of that is the prosperity variety.Forest Bueller_bf said:
Specifics of growth however....
What is the fastest-growing form of Christianity in the world today?
Pentecostalism represents one of the fastest-growing segments of global Christianity, according to the Pew Research Center website. Oct 12, 2019
The doctrines of baptism and the Lord's Supper are very much matters of salvation, or at least were in the past. The fact that we don't debate these things anymore says that we don't consider them important anymore. That, in turn, means the doctrine of salvation has become less important than cultural issues.Osodecentx said:Sounds like the United Methodist Church or a liberal Baptist church. I hear reports of activists moving on abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and Trump.C. Jordan said:Mothra said:Yes, I agree the prosperity gospel is a big player in Africa in particular. I cannot comment on S. America, but wouldn't be surprised.C. Jordan said:I was thinking of church growth in a global setting. If you dig a bit deeper into missionary literature, you'll find that the fastest-growing brand of Christianity in a global sense is Pentecostalism with a prosperity bent. My missionary friends in Africa and S. America testify to it as well.Mothra said:A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
My point is equating church growth with conservatism and biblical faithfulness is a tricky proposition. The fact that a church or denomination is growing or declining isn't necessarily in indicator of its faithfulness to the scriptures. Growth and decline comes from a complex interaction of theology, demographics, birth rates, social change, and more.
What we should be talking about more is the fastest-growing segment of the American population: the Nones. They're people who've dropped out of church for various reasons. Many of them are spiritual, but don't identify with any religion. I run into them every day. They've dropped out of both conservative and liberal churches.
Interestingly, conservative theology and church membership and attendance aren't as connected as they once were. For example, a considerable number of people identify themselves as evangelical but don't attend church. This doesn't make sense to me, but it's a reality.
Also, I think the conservatism/liberalism of the church is less important than its sense of mission. I've seen conservative churches with no sense of mission or real evangelism. And I've seen liberal churches with both. So until the mentality of church folks changes, it doesn't matter if they're liberal or conservative. Their churches are going to die.
My position does not suggest that false teachings cannot take hold and gain a following. Indeed, they can and have - throughout Church history. I am also not suggesting that the ONLY reason that the bible church is growing is because it's conservative, though I think there is really no disputing that adherence to the fundamentals is a huge part of it's growing membership. Part and parcel with adherence to the fundamentals is a heavy emphasis on the mission field. Indeed, more than half of my bible church's annual budget goes to the mission field, which would I suspect would be highly unusual in one of the traditional denominations. Christ did call us to be fishers of men after all.
So, where we are going to disagree is on the last part. I believe there is strong evidence that the reason the Bible church is growing, and the traditional denominations are declining is indeed because of the former's adherence to the fundamentals. It's extremely rare to find a liberal church nowdays that is thriving.
Today, they've been replaced by abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and loyalty to Trump.
So matters of salvation have become less important among people who identify as biblically conservative and cultural issues have become much more important.
Not so much on salvation
In fairness, though, there was this thing called the sexual revolution.C. Jordan said:The doctrines of baptism and the Lord's Supper are very much matters of salvation, or at least were in the past. The fact that we don't debate these things anymore says that we don't consider them important anymore. That, in turn, means the doctrine of salvation has become less important than cultural issues.Osodecentx said:Sounds like the United Methodist Church or a liberal Baptist church. I hear reports of activists moving on abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and Trump.C. Jordan said:Mothra said:Yes, I agree the prosperity gospel is a big player in Africa in particular. I cannot comment on S. America, but wouldn't be surprised.C. Jordan said:I was thinking of church growth in a global setting. If you dig a bit deeper into missionary literature, you'll find that the fastest-growing brand of Christianity in a global sense is Pentecostalism with a prosperity bent. My missionary friends in Africa and S. America testify to it as well.Mothra said:A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
My point is equating church growth with conservatism and biblical faithfulness is a tricky proposition. The fact that a church or denomination is growing or declining isn't necessarily in indicator of its faithfulness to the scriptures. Growth and decline comes from a complex interaction of theology, demographics, birth rates, social change, and more.
What we should be talking about more is the fastest-growing segment of the American population: the Nones. They're people who've dropped out of church for various reasons. Many of them are spiritual, but don't identify with any religion. I run into them every day. They've dropped out of both conservative and liberal churches.
Interestingly, conservative theology and church membership and attendance aren't as connected as they once were. For example, a considerable number of people identify themselves as evangelical but don't attend church. This doesn't make sense to me, but it's a reality.
Also, I think the conservatism/liberalism of the church is less important than its sense of mission. I've seen conservative churches with no sense of mission or real evangelism. And I've seen liberal churches with both. So until the mentality of church folks changes, it doesn't matter if they're liberal or conservative. Their churches are going to die.
My position does not suggest that false teachings cannot take hold and gain a following. Indeed, they can and have - throughout Church history. I am also not suggesting that the ONLY reason that the bible church is growing is because it's conservative, though I think there is really no disputing that adherence to the fundamentals is a huge part of it's growing membership. Part and parcel with adherence to the fundamentals is a heavy emphasis on the mission field. Indeed, more than half of my bible church's annual budget goes to the mission field, which would I suspect would be highly unusual in one of the traditional denominations. Christ did call us to be fishers of men after all.
So, where we are going to disagree is on the last part. I believe there is strong evidence that the reason the Bible church is growing, and the traditional denominations are declining is indeed because of the former's adherence to the fundamentals. It's extremely rare to find a liberal church nowdays that is thriving.
Today, they've been replaced by abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and loyalty to Trump.
So matters of salvation have become less important among people who identify as biblically conservative and cultural issues have become much more important.
Not so much on salvation
As I said, there are a number of reasons the nondenominational church has grown, and you can't base it on any one factor, as you attempt in your first paragraph. I don't disagree that there are probably many people who have joined who were conservative in thinking and disillusioned with their denomination. And at the same time, I know many nondenominational churches that I would call "seeker" churches which are composed of the previously non-churched and younger generations who did not grow up going to Sunday School. That would accurately describe my church here in Austin.C. Jordan said:Nondenominational churches as whole are growing because more Christians are disillusioned with denominations. The great majority of people who are going to these Bible churches weren't "lost" people joining. And the great majority aren't coming from Mainstream churches. They're coming from conservative denominational churches. Even Bible churches adhere to fewer doctrinal details than denominational churches of the past.Mothra said:Yes, I agree the prosperity gospel is a big player in Africa in particular. I cannot comment on S. America, but wouldn't be surprised.C. Jordan said:I was thinking of church growth in a global setting. If you dig a bit deeper into missionary literature, you'll find that the fastest-growing brand of Christianity in a global sense is Pentecostalism with a prosperity bent. My missionary friends in Africa and S. America testify to it as well.Mothra said:A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
My point is equating church growth with conservatism and biblical faithfulness is a tricky proposition. The fact that a church or denomination is growing or declining isn't necessarily in indicator of its faithfulness to the scriptures. Growth and decline comes from a complex interaction of theology, demographics, birth rates, social change, and more.
What we should be talking about more is the fastest-growing segment of the American population: the Nones. They're people who've dropped out of church for various reasons. Many of them are spiritual, but don't identify with any religion. I run into them every day. They've dropped out of both conservative and liberal churches.
Interestingly, conservative theology and church membership and attendance aren't as connected as they once were. For example, a considerable number of people identify themselves as evangelical but don't attend church. This doesn't make sense to me, but it's a reality.
Also, I think the conservatism/liberalism of the church is less important than its sense of mission. I've seen conservative churches with no sense of mission or real evangelism. And I've seen liberal churches with both. So until the mentality of church folks changes, it doesn't matter if they're liberal or conservative. Their churches are going to die.
My position does not suggest that false teachings cannot take hold and gain a following. Indeed, they can and have - throughout Church history. I am also not suggesting that the ONLY reason that the bible church is growing is because it's conservative, though I think there is really no disputing that adherence to the fundamentals is a huge part of it's growing membership. Part and parcel with adherence to the fundamentals is a heavy emphasis on the mission field. Indeed, more than half of my bible church's annual budget goes to the mission field, which would I suspect would be highly unusual in one of the traditional denominations. Christ did call us to be fishers of men after all.
So, where we are going to disagree is on the last part. I believe there is strong evidence that the reason the Bible church is growing, and the traditional denominations are declining is indeed because of the former's adherence to the fundamentals. It's extremely rare to find a liberal church nowdays that is thriving.
These are the trends I've seen over the last 50 years. Mainstream denominational churches to more evangelical denominational churches. More evangelical denominational churches to nondenominational churches. Nondenominational churches to no church.
I've also seen even among conservative churches that the issues people regard as most important have shifted radically. 50 years ago, issues like the meaning of baptism and the Lord's Supper, the nature of church governance, the nature of the Trinity, the nature of Christ, etc., were really important. Today, they've been replaced by abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and loyalty to Trump.
So matters of salvation have become less important among people who identify as biblically conservative and cultural issues have become much more important.
As for your experience over the last 50 years, it is your experience, and I won't argue with what you believe you have seen. But what I can say is our church has grown by leaps and bounds the last 5 years because of its mission focus. While it make sense that hot button social issues of today would replace the social issues of yesterday, what I can also say is that doctrine remains very important in every bible church I have attended. So in that regard, my experience has been VERY different from your own. And you cannot convince me that its adherence to sound doctrine hasn't been the reason for that increase.
I can also say I haven't been to or watched a single service where loyalty to Trump was ever even discussed or referenced. To be blunt with you, what you said is the kind of junk I hear from my liberal friends who haven't darkened the door of a church in years. Reality is much different than their perception that EV churches are chalk full of people blindly loyal to Trump. Those claims are absurd.
As for your last sentence, at least based on my experience, you couldn't be more wrong.
Important, and matters of salvation, are two different things. Since when did baptism and communion becomes prerequisites to being saved? Not in any verses I have read.C. Jordan said:The doctrines of baptism and the Lord's Supper are very much matters of salvation, or at least were in the past. The fact that we don't debate these things anymore says that we don't consider them important anymore. That, in turn, means the doctrine of salvation has become less important than cultural issues.Osodecentx said:Sounds like the United Methodist Church or a liberal Baptist church. I hear reports of activists moving on abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and Trump.C. Jordan said:Mothra said:Yes, I agree the prosperity gospel is a big player in Africa in particular. I cannot comment on S. America, but wouldn't be surprised.C. Jordan said:I was thinking of church growth in a global setting. If you dig a bit deeper into missionary literature, you'll find that the fastest-growing brand of Christianity in a global sense is Pentecostalism with a prosperity bent. My missionary friends in Africa and S. America testify to it as well.Mothra said:A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
My point is equating church growth with conservatism and biblical faithfulness is a tricky proposition. The fact that a church or denomination is growing or declining isn't necessarily in indicator of its faithfulness to the scriptures. Growth and decline comes from a complex interaction of theology, demographics, birth rates, social change, and more.
What we should be talking about more is the fastest-growing segment of the American population: the Nones. They're people who've dropped out of church for various reasons. Many of them are spiritual, but don't identify with any religion. I run into them every day. They've dropped out of both conservative and liberal churches.
Interestingly, conservative theology and church membership and attendance aren't as connected as they once were. For example, a considerable number of people identify themselves as evangelical but don't attend church. This doesn't make sense to me, but it's a reality.
Also, I think the conservatism/liberalism of the church is less important than its sense of mission. I've seen conservative churches with no sense of mission or real evangelism. And I've seen liberal churches with both. So until the mentality of church folks changes, it doesn't matter if they're liberal or conservative. Their churches are going to die.
My position does not suggest that false teachings cannot take hold and gain a following. Indeed, they can and have - throughout Church history. I am also not suggesting that the ONLY reason that the bible church is growing is because it's conservative, though I think there is really no disputing that adherence to the fundamentals is a huge part of it's growing membership. Part and parcel with adherence to the fundamentals is a heavy emphasis on the mission field. Indeed, more than half of my bible church's annual budget goes to the mission field, which would I suspect would be highly unusual in one of the traditional denominations. Christ did call us to be fishers of men after all.
So, where we are going to disagree is on the last part. I believe there is strong evidence that the reason the Bible church is growing, and the traditional denominations are declining is indeed because of the former's adherence to the fundamentals. It's extremely rare to find a liberal church nowdays that is thriving.
Today, they've been replaced by abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and loyalty to Trump.
So matters of salvation have become less important among people who identify as biblically conservative and cultural issues have become much more important.
Not so much on salvation
I agree they remain important. I am not sure any leader in my church would say otherwise.
C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Yes, and the God of the Bible, too, though it was by no means perfect.
Brother, I need to know where you go to church.C. Jordan said:Nondenominational churches as whole are growing because more Christians are disillusioned with denominations. The great majority of people who are going to these Bible churches weren't "lost" people joining. And the great majority aren't coming from Mainstream churches. They're coming from conservative denominational churches. Even Bible churches adhere to fewer doctrinal details than denominational churches of the past.Mothra said:Yes, I agree the prosperity gospel is a big player in Africa in particular. I cannot comment on S. America, but wouldn't be surprised.C. Jordan said:I was thinking of church growth in a global setting. If you dig a bit deeper into missionary literature, you'll find that the fastest-growing brand of Christianity in a global sense is Pentecostalism with a prosperity bent. My missionary friends in Africa and S. America testify to it as well.Mothra said:A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
My point is equating church growth with conservatism and biblical faithfulness is a tricky proposition. The fact that a church or denomination is growing or declining isn't necessarily in indicator of its faithfulness to the scriptures. Growth and decline comes from a complex interaction of theology, demographics, birth rates, social change, and more.
What we should be talking about more is the fastest-growing segment of the American population: the Nones. They're people who've dropped out of church for various reasons. Many of them are spiritual, but don't identify with any religion. I run into them every day. They've dropped out of both conservative and liberal churches.
Interestingly, conservative theology and church membership and attendance aren't as connected as they once were. For example, a considerable number of people identify themselves as evangelical but don't attend church. This doesn't make sense to me, but it's a reality.
Also, I think the conservatism/liberalism of the church is less important than its sense of mission. I've seen conservative churches with no sense of mission or real evangelism. And I've seen liberal churches with both. So until the mentality of church folks changes, it doesn't matter if they're liberal or conservative. Their churches are going to die.
My position does not suggest that false teachings cannot take hold and gain a following. Indeed, they can and have - throughout Church history. I am also not suggesting that the ONLY reason that the bible church is growing is because it's conservative, though I think there is really no disputing that adherence to the fundamentals is a huge part of it's growing membership. Part and parcel with adherence to the fundamentals is a heavy emphasis on the mission field. Indeed, more than half of my bible church's annual budget goes to the mission field, which would I suspect would be highly unusual in one of the traditional denominations. Christ did call us to be fishers of men after all.
So, where we are going to disagree is on the last part. I believe there is strong evidence that the reason the Bible church is growing, and the traditional denominations are declining is indeed because of the former's adherence to the fundamentals. It's extremely rare to find a liberal church nowdays that is thriving.
These are the trends I've seen over the last 50 years. Mainstream denominational churches to more evangelical denominational churches. More evangelical denominational churches to nondenominational churches. Nondenominational churches to no church.
I've also seen even among conservative churches that the issues people regard as most important have shifted radically. 50 years ago, issues like the meaning of baptism and the Lord's Supper, the nature of church governance, the nature of the Trinity, the nature of Christ, etc., were really important. Today, they've been replaced by abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and loyalty to Trump.
So matters of salvation have become less important among people who identify as biblically conservative and cultural issues have become much more important.
That's sounds like what you've been told is going on. Where I attend the bolded aren't mentioned except in passing at most. The last two have never been mentioned at all.
Last time I heard it put like this was when I went to the old school Church of Christ. Everything there was about doctrine, and how much better they felt they were at administering it.C. Jordan said:The doctrines of baptism and the Lord's Supper are very much matters of salvation, or at least were in the past. The fact that we don't debate these things anymore says that we don't consider them important anymore. That, in turn, means the doctrine of salvation has become less important than cultural issues.Osodecentx said:Sounds like the United Methodist Church or a liberal Baptist church. I hear reports of activists moving on abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and Trump.C. Jordan said:Mothra said:Yes, I agree the prosperity gospel is a big player in Africa in particular. I cannot comment on S. America, but wouldn't be surprised.C. Jordan said:I was thinking of church growth in a global setting. If you dig a bit deeper into missionary literature, you'll find that the fastest-growing brand of Christianity in a global sense is Pentecostalism with a prosperity bent. My missionary friends in Africa and S. America testify to it as well.Mothra said:A google search provided no evidence of your position on the prosperity gospel - which has been a big player for years on television. Has it grown since the 80's? Not sure. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton and the like have always seemed to make a lot of money from it, but their viewership and congregations have markedly declined. Sure, there are people like Osteen who take their place, and perhaps always will be. There will always be people who make money by distorting the gospel. Hell, it happened in Paul's time.C. Jordan said:Pentecostal churches are growing even faster, particularly those that feature the Prosperity Gospel. Does this mean their preaching is closer to the Bible than Bible churches?Mothra said:The non-denominational bible church is growing in large numbers. Many of the mainline denominations are seeing congregants flock to them. It's what happens when you actually preach the word of God, and stick to the fundamentals, instead of tickling the ears of the woke generation.C. Jordan said:Pretty much all Christian denominations in the US are declining. Including conservative ones like the Southern Baptist Convention. And the SBC's decline is more severe than his numbers show. SBC numbers are based on membership, not attendance. If you tracked attendance, the decline would be about as steep as Methodists. The video seem ignores conservative declines. Many conservative churches have abandoned evangelism for culture war.BaylorFTW said:
Roman Catholics would also be in a steep decline in the U.S. were it not for growth from Latino immigrants.
The decline is much more complex than liberal or conservative theology. The video pursues the simplistic, inadequate thesis that conservative theology is the difference. I meet lots of people who call themselves "recovering Baptist" or "recovering Catholic" who are spiritual but who have rejected their former churches for various reasons.
The heart of the problem for many churches is that they refuse to move away from institutional thinking and move to missional and incarnational thinking. They think too much about satisfying their members and too little about reaching out in love and grace to people outside their churches. This issue transcends theology.
Also, the Southern Baptist Convention was growing at a high rate in the late 1960s and the 1970s, when it was allegedly "liberal." Now that it's more conservative, it's declining. Does that mean it was doing a better job honoring the Bible when it was more liberal?
Can't comment on how liberal the SBC was in the 60's and 70's. I highly doubt they strayed from biblical teachings, however, given what I know about the denomination.
My point is equating church growth with conservatism and biblical faithfulness is a tricky proposition. The fact that a church or denomination is growing or declining isn't necessarily in indicator of its faithfulness to the scriptures. Growth and decline comes from a complex interaction of theology, demographics, birth rates, social change, and more.
What we should be talking about more is the fastest-growing segment of the American population: the Nones. They're people who've dropped out of church for various reasons. Many of them are spiritual, but don't identify with any religion. I run into them every day. They've dropped out of both conservative and liberal churches.
Interestingly, conservative theology and church membership and attendance aren't as connected as they once were. For example, a considerable number of people identify themselves as evangelical but don't attend church. This doesn't make sense to me, but it's a reality.
Also, I think the conservatism/liberalism of the church is less important than its sense of mission. I've seen conservative churches with no sense of mission or real evangelism. And I've seen liberal churches with both. So until the mentality of church folks changes, it doesn't matter if they're liberal or conservative. Their churches are going to die.
My position does not suggest that false teachings cannot take hold and gain a following. Indeed, they can and have - throughout Church history. I am also not suggesting that the ONLY reason that the bible church is growing is because it's conservative, though I think there is really no disputing that adherence to the fundamentals is a huge part of it's growing membership. Part and parcel with adherence to the fundamentals is a heavy emphasis on the mission field. Indeed, more than half of my bible church's annual budget goes to the mission field, which would I suspect would be highly unusual in one of the traditional denominations. Christ did call us to be fishers of men after all.
So, where we are going to disagree is on the last part. I believe there is strong evidence that the reason the Bible church is growing, and the traditional denominations are declining is indeed because of the former's adherence to the fundamentals. It's extremely rare to find a liberal church nowdays that is thriving.
Today, they've been replaced by abortion, homosexuality, the role of women, the Second Amendment, and loyalty to Trump.
So matters of salvation have become less important among people who identify as biblically conservative and cultural issues have become much more important.
Not so much on salvation