A New Theism God is love and its implications.

1,837 Views | 53 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by Waco1947
Waco1947
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Premise 1 God is love (Agape Love; Unconditional Love)
Premise 2 God is perfect love which cannot contain wrath because then God's love not be perfect
I John 4: God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love.
19 We love because he first loved us.
20 Those who say, "I love God," and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen.
21 The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters, too."
God simply cannot hate us or punish us because God loves perfectly.
Premise 3 God love lets us suffer the consequences of our sin and evil.
Conclusion:But God does not punish us for free will choices for Love is God's Godness.

To believe that there is a hell for eternal damnation is simply an unknown.
Classical theism cannot prove its existence. Death is the limit of our knowledge; all else is conjecture. Hell is an analogy depicting life without God. Life without acknowledging God's love for us and the worthiness of our being loved is indeed Gehenna a garbage dump.

Waco1947
Amal Shuq-Up
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
CammoTX
How long do you want to ignore this user?
But that big flood tho…
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Screeeeeeeeccccchhhhh!!!!! (My fingernails scratching the chalkboard!)
The last variant will be named Communism.
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?

Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
He also doesn't seem to understand the meaning/connotation of the words he uses.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Amal Shuq-Up
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
"The Church will need centuries of prayer and silence to forge anew its flabby soul. The liberals have done it great harm but not killed it."
Nicolas Gomez Davila
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
"Hell, even more so than Heaven, is the great Christian promise. That God will one day finally judge the wicked who have so harmed and oppressed the innocent. After all, who would wish at the end of life that all sentences should be equal?

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
That's not what I am asking. You posited that they had to repent to forgo punishment.

If you believe in punishment, then I hope you have an idea of how to avoid it. Jesus's forgiveness on the Cross poses an example in which repentance was not needed.

So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?
OsoCoreyell
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Waco1947 said:

Premise 1 God is love (Agape Love; Unconditional Love)
Premise 2 God is perfect love which cannot contain wrath because then God's love not be perfect
I John 4: God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love.
19 We love because he first loved us.
20 Those who say, "I love God," and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen.
21 The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters, too."
God simply cannot hate us or punish us because God loves perfectly.
Premise 3 God love lets us suffer the consequences of our sin and evil.
Conclusion:But God does not punish us for free will choices for Love is God's Godness.

To believe that there is a hell for eternal damnation is simply an unknown.
Classical theism cannot prove its existence. Death is the limit of our knowledge; all else is conjecture. Hell is an analogy depicting life without God. Life without acknowledging God's love for us and the worthiness of our being loved is indeed Gehenna a garbage dump.


I like the part where you ignore pretty much the rest of scripture.
Amal Shuq-Up
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
That's not what I am asking. You posited that they had to repent to forgo punishment.

If you believe in punishment, then I hope you have an idea of how to avoid it. Jesus's forgiveness on the Cross poses an example in which repentance was not needed.

So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?


How do you know who repented and who did not? You don't. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. For wilful sin, there is no sacrifice. You might try reading the whole book rather than isolating a few passages and adding your assumptions to those passages.
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
That's not what I am asking. You posited that they had to repent to forgo punishment.

If you believe in punishment, then I hope you have an idea of how to avoid it. Jesus's forgiveness on the Cross poses an example in which repentance was not needed.

So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?


How do you know who repented and who did not? You don't. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. For wilful sin, there is no sacrifice. You might try reading the whole book rather than isolating a few passages and adding your assumptions to those passages.

Of course, I have no idea who repented or not. You are right about that.

But...it seems that Jesus offered a prayer of forgiveness before they repented (if they did). Perhaps that tells us something about the nature of forgiveness. Perhaps, repentance is not needed for forgiveness. If repentance is not needed for forgiveness, then perhaps repentance is not needed to avoid punishment.

Have you ever had someone wrong you and you forgave them without them repenting?

Also, I assure you, I have read the "whole book." I am not trying to cherry pick versus or stories but rather wondering how these events might be instructive on how we live our life.

If God can forgive without being asked for it, perhaps we are called to do the same. And if I forgive someone who does not ask for it, would I still "punish" them?
Amal Shuq-Up
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
That's not what I am asking. You posited that they had to repent to forgo punishment.

If you believe in punishment, then I hope you have an idea of how to avoid it. Jesus's forgiveness on the Cross poses an example in which repentance was not needed.

So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?


How do you know who repented and who did not? You don't. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. For wilful sin, there is no sacrifice. You might try reading the whole book rather than isolating a few passages and adding your assumptions to those passages.

Of course, I have no idea who repented or not. You are right about that.

But...it seems that Jesus offered a prayer of forgiveness before they repented (if they did). Perhaps that tells us something about the nature of forgiveness. Perhaps, repentance is not needed for forgiveness. If repentance is not needed for forgiveness, then perhaps repentance is not needed to avoid punishment.

Have you ever had someone wrong you and you forgave them without them repenting?

Also, I assure you, I have read the "whole book." I am not trying to cherry pick versus or stories but rather wondering how these events might be instructive on how we live our life.

If God can forgive without being asked for it, perhaps we are called to do the same. And if I forgive someone who does not ask for it, would I still "punish" them?



Why do you conflate confession, intercession, and repentance?
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
That's not what I am asking. You posited that they had to repent to forgo punishment.

If you believe in punishment, then I hope you have an idea of how to avoid it. Jesus's forgiveness on the Cross poses an example in which repentance was not needed.

So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?


How do you know who repented and who did not? You don't. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. For wilful sin, there is no sacrifice. You might try reading the whole book rather than isolating a few passages and adding your assumptions to those passages.

Of course, I have no idea who repented or not. You are right about that.

But...it seems that Jesus offered a prayer of forgiveness before they repented (if they did). Perhaps that tells us something about the nature of forgiveness. Perhaps, repentance is not needed for forgiveness. If repentance is not needed for forgiveness, then perhaps repentance is not needed to avoid punishment.

Have you ever had someone wrong you and you forgave them without them repenting?

Also, I assure you, I have read the "whole book." I am not trying to cherry pick versus or stories but rather wondering how these events might be instructive on how we live our life.

If God can forgive without being asked for it, perhaps we are called to do the same. And if I forgive someone who does not ask for it, would I still "punish" them?



Why do you conflate confession, intercession, and repentance?
Please tell me how I am doing so.

I am merely attempting to think through your statement that unrepentant sin must be punished. I am assuming that it really is understood as (1) unrepentant sin is (2) not forgiven and (3) therefore must be punished. Is this a correct framing of your view?
Amal Shuq-Up
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
That's not what I am asking. You posited that they had to repent to forgo punishment.

If you believe in punishment, then I hope you have an idea of how to avoid it. Jesus's forgiveness on the Cross poses an example in which repentance was not needed.

So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?


How do you know who repented and who did not? You don't. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. For wilful sin, there is no sacrifice. You might try reading the whole book rather than isolating a few passages and adding your assumptions to those passages.

Of course, I have no idea who repented or not. You are right about that.

But...it seems that Jesus offered a prayer of forgiveness before they repented (if they did). Perhaps that tells us something about the nature of forgiveness. Perhaps, repentance is not needed for forgiveness. If repentance is not needed for forgiveness, then perhaps repentance is not needed to avoid punishment.

Have you ever had someone wrong you and you forgave them without them repenting?

Also, I assure you, I have read the "whole book." I am not trying to cherry pick versus or stories but rather wondering how these events might be instructive on how we live our life.

If God can forgive without being asked for it, perhaps we are called to do the same. And if I forgive someone who does not ask for it, would I still "punish" them?



Why do you conflate confession, intercession, and repentance?
Please tell me how I am doing so.

I am merely attempting to think through your statement that unrepentant sin must be punished. I am assuming that it really is understood as (1) unrepentant sin is (2) not forgiven and (3) therefore must be punished. Is this a correct framing of your view?


No. Those who do not repent after knowing their sin, will not be forgiven, and therefore, will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire.
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
That's not what I am asking. You posited that they had to repent to forgo punishment.

If you believe in punishment, then I hope you have an idea of how to avoid it. Jesus's forgiveness on the Cross poses an example in which repentance was not needed.

So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?


How do you know who repented and who did not? You don't. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. For wilful sin, there is no sacrifice. You might try reading the whole book rather than isolating a few passages and adding your assumptions to those passages.

Of course, I have no idea who repented or not. You are right about that.

But...it seems that Jesus offered a prayer of forgiveness before they repented (if they did). Perhaps that tells us something about the nature of forgiveness. Perhaps, repentance is not needed for forgiveness. If repentance is not needed for forgiveness, then perhaps repentance is not needed to avoid punishment.

Have you ever had someone wrong you and you forgave them without them repenting?

Also, I assure you, I have read the "whole book." I am not trying to cherry pick versus or stories but rather wondering how these events might be instructive on how we live our life.

If God can forgive without being asked for it, perhaps we are called to do the same. And if I forgive someone who does not ask for it, would I still "punish" them?



Why do you conflate confession, intercession, and repentance?
Please tell me how I am doing so.

I am merely attempting to think through your statement that unrepentant sin must be punished. I am assuming that it really is understood as (1) unrepentant sin is (2) not forgiven and (3) therefore must be punished. Is this a correct framing of your view?


No. Those who do not repent after knowing their sin, will not be forgiven, and therefore, will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire.
It seems to me the sin to watch out for is not following what Jesus commanded us to do - love God and love our neighbor as ourselves as this summarizes the law. Basically, we are to love everybody as He did (unconditionally). And, if I was being honest, I often fail to live up to this high bar.

The reason I picked up on your post and attempted to engage you was the idea of unrepentant sin not being forgiven. In my line of work, I often engage with people who have had a lot of trauma. And I mean a lot. Sometimes they get really stuck in their pain. And often the people who harmed them are not around, not alive, or just plain rascals. So rarely is there a confession/forgiveness/repentance moment.

The people who learn to forgive experience so much better results. They are just far more free. In fact, it seems that unforgiveness often chains people in their own mental and emotional prison. Whereas forgiveness (even without the sinful party repenting), frees them. This freedom can occur even if there is no punishment. It is almost like unforgiveness keeps them in sin/hell even though they were wronged. And the internal act of forgiveness frees them.

Interesting words like "forgiveness, freedom, salvation, peace" occur from the internal work of forgiveness absent confession, intercession and repentance. And that is just on the human/earth level. How much more in Heaven can we expect? I don't know the answer to this but I hope.

Do you know what often motivates the person to forgive? Love. Sometimes it is love for themselves. Sometimes it is love for their family who they know is hurting too. Sometimes it is love of God. And every once in awhile it is love for the abuser.

While you may not agree with Waco1947 ultimate conclusion, I don't think it is a worthless idea to ponder the power of love and the implications of an unconditionally loving God. It is late, I am tired and I may have rambled.

Peace to you.
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
That's not what I am asking. You posited that they had to repent to forgo punishment.

If you believe in punishment, then I hope you have an idea of how to avoid it. Jesus's forgiveness on the Cross poses an example in which repentance was not needed.

So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?


bearhouse said " So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?"

Sometimes I pray for heeling. Does that mean I will never go through treatment to get that heeling?

Christ pray doesn't continue "They are unrepentant. Let them remain this way."

You are assuming you know how God will work in their lives. I have a hunch that you don't know this.

Consider the possibility that your wishful thinking and God's will may not match.
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Can the parents of a convicted man still love their son?

If the answer is yes, then conviction does not eliminate or change perfect love.

To the mods: we have this R&P board. Can you add an Itchy Ear/False Teacher/Wolf in Sheep's Clothing board?
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
If I pray for patience, can I expect to suddenly be patient or, is it possible that I may have a learning process to go through?
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
"Father, forgive them..."

Is Acts 4:4 an answer to that prayer?
atomicblast
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Ah yes, the mutilation of Christ's word continues to satisfy the
"No terrible consequences for our ****ty moral behavior!!!" mentality. These people preaching humanity can do anything and not suffer the consequences are like the ones who insist they can continue eating handfuls of mayonnaise and not get fat.
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
That's not what I am asking. You posited that they had to repent to forgo punishment.

If you believe in punishment, then I hope you have an idea of how to avoid it. Jesus's forgiveness on the Cross poses an example in which repentance was not needed.

So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?


How do you know who repented and who did not? You don't. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. For wilful sin, there is no sacrifice. You might try reading the whole book rather than isolating a few passages and adding your assumptions to those passages.

Of course, I have no idea who repented or not. You are right about that.

But...it seems that Jesus offered a prayer of forgiveness before they repented (if they did). Perhaps that tells us something about the nature of forgiveness. Perhaps, repentance is not needed for forgiveness. If repentance is not needed for forgiveness, then perhaps repentance is not needed to avoid punishment.

Have you ever had someone wrong you and you forgave them without them repenting?

Also, I assure you, I have read the "whole book." I am not trying to cherry pick versus or stories but rather wondering how these events might be instructive on how we live our life.

If God can forgive without being asked for it, perhaps we are called to do the same. And if I forgive someone who does not ask for it, would I still "punish" them?



Why do you conflate confession, intercession, and repentance?
Please tell me how I am doing so.

I am merely attempting to think through your statement that unrepentant sin must be punished. I am assuming that it really is understood as (1) unrepentant sin is (2) not forgiven and (3) therefore must be punished. Is this a correct framing of your view?


No. Those who do not repent after knowing their sin, will not be forgiven, and therefore, will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire.
It seems to me the sin to watch out for is not following what Jesus commanded us to do - love God and love our neighbor as ourselves as this summarizes the law. Basically, we are to love everybody as He did (unconditionally). And, if I was being honest, I often fail to live up to this high bar.

The reason I picked up on your post and attempted to engage you was the idea of unrepentant sin not being forgiven. In my line of work, I often engage with people who have had a lot of trauma. And I mean a lot. Sometimes they get really stuck in their pain. And often the people who harmed them are not around, not alive, or just plain rascals. So rarely is there a confession/forgiveness/repentance moment.

The people who learn to forgive experience so much better results. They are just far more free. In fact, it seems that unforgiveness often chains people in their own mental and emotional prison. Whereas forgiveness (even without the sinful party repenting), frees them. This freedom can occur even if there is no punishment. It is almost like unforgiveness keeps them in sin/hell even though they were wronged. And the internal act of forgiveness frees them.

Interesting words like "forgiveness, freedom, salvation, peace" occur from the internal work of forgiveness absent confession, intercession and repentance. And that is just on the human/earth level. How much more in Heaven can we expect? I don't know the answer to this but I hope.

Do you know what often motivates the person to forgive? Love. Sometimes it is love for themselves. Sometimes it is love for their family who they know is hurting too. Sometimes it is love of God. And every once in awhile it is love for the abuser.

While you may not agree with Waco1947 ultimate conclusion, I don't think it is a worthless idea to ponder the power of love and the implications of an unconditionally loving God. It is late, I am tired and I may have rambled.

Peace to you.
I'm assuming you are in some kind of a clinical type setting or a type of victim support. Good for you! I completely agree that forgiveness is a big step towards healing/recovery.

I think one possible mistake people make when speaking of Christ love and His command that we love is that perfect love does not negate perfect justice..

Matt 3:2 in speaking of John The Baptist states "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

Matt 4:17 as Christ begins His ministry quotes Jesus Himself saying "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Those here who speak only of love are using scripture as though it were a Chinese menu, picking and choosing only what they like.
Waco1947
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Amal Shuq-Up said:

Premise 1 Why do you bother?

Premise 2 Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea

Conclusion: that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
Premise 1 Why do you bother? Good question. Thank you. I bother because I do not want people to come in the kingdom by fear. Fear makes poor disciples for our Lord

Premise 2 Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea Which idea is empty. Give me an example from my premises.

Conclusion: that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
What harm will the unrepentant do to you in heaven? Your heaven is conjecture. My heaven is faith that I die into the loving arms of God. That is all we can say about the next life.
Prove your heaven and hell that abides by what we know of God; that is, God is immutable and eternal in God's love for us. The Steadfast Love of the Lord is forever.
Waco1947
Waco1947
How long do you want to ignore this user?
"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Waco1947
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
LIB,MR BEARS said:

If I pray for patience, can I expect to suddenly be patient or, is it possible that I may have a learning process to go through?
Please read this next line as a gentle tease.

Perhaps God loves you so much that he brought Waco1947 and my posting to help you develop patience. :-)

And your response will hopefully help us develop wisdom.
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Waco1947 said:

"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Was the prodigal son still heir to the Kingdom while sleeping with the pigs? Granted, he did not appreciate or benefit from the fullness of his rights until he turned around and walked back (repented). But that did not change his ultimate relationship to his father. He was the son of his father before he left, while on his journey, during the walk home and when he arrived. At least according to his father's view.
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

If I pray for patience, can I expect to suddenly be patient or, is it possible that I may have a learning process to go through?
Please read this next line as a gentle tease.

Perhaps God loves you so much that he brought Waco1947 and my posting to help you develop patience. :-)

And your response will hopefully help us develop wisdom.
I take it as a reminder that Waco knows some of what God is telling us. This is true for everyone, including me, including you.

We are meant to talk to each other and listen, in the hope that we can add to our wisdom with the wisdom of others.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Amal Shuq-Up
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Waco1947 said:

"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Was the prodigal son still heir to the Kingdom while sleeping with the pigs?
If the prodigal son would have died while eating with pigs and cavorting with prostitutes, then his place would have been the fiery dung heap at Gehenna. The fact that he could realize his position as heir to his father's kingdom only after he came to his senses, repented, and returned in humility to his father and his father's ways illustrates the point exactly that repentance is a necessary prerequisite to salvation and inheriting the kingdom of God. You did not intend to make the point that you are trying to oppose, but you did make the point anyway.

If you sin daily, then something is not right. You need to understand that if you are saved, then you have victory over sin. Stop sinning. Stop listening to preachers and speakers who deliver an impotent message that holds you will always be a sinner. No you won't; unless of course, you listen to them and think yourself a victim rather than a victor.
Amal Shuq-Up
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Waco1947 said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Premise 1 Why do you bother?

Premise 2 Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea

Conclusion: that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
Premise 1 Why do you bother? Good question. Thank you. I bother because I do not want people to come in the kingdom by fear. Fear makes poor disciples for our Lord

Premise 2 Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea Which idea is empty. Give me an example from my premises.

Conclusion: that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
What harm will the unrepentant do to you in heaven? Your heaven is conjecture. My heaven is faith that I die into the loving arms of God. That is all we can say about the next life.
Prove your heaven and hell that abides by what we know of God; that is, God is immutable and eternal in God's love for us. The Steadfast Love of the Lord is forever.
The unrepentant will do neither me nor anyone else any harm in heaven because they will not be there. They will be separated. One needs to understand the foundations of the Gospel in Genesis to understand that physical death and later eternal separation from the unrepentant is part of God's love.

When man disobeyed God, his mind and soul were corrupted to the point that we had one brother murdering another brother only one generation after the original deception by Satan and disobedience by the man. To keep people from having to live with unrepentant wicked people for eternity, God banished man and set an angel to guard the way to the Tree of Life to prevent man from eating also from the Tree of Life and living forever. Had man both eaten from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and also the Tree of Life, then even people like Adolph Hitler (Cain, Nimrod, and other early-history evil doers) would have lived forever and tormented everyone on earth forever.

If those who have repented of their sin and have taken on the righteousness of Christ had to live forever in Heaven with the unrepentant, then the unrepentant would cause the same havoc in Heaven as did Lucifer and as they did when they were on earth. The Lord, in his love, has separated the unrepentant workers of lawlessness from the repentant. He illustrates this in parables and descriptions of the judgment. I am sure if you were interested in learning about the final separation of the righteous from the unrighteous you would look into these things. The Great White Throne Judgment would be instructive.

You need to repent of your false doctrine. You will be accountable for a double portion as a teacher.
BusyTarpDuster2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Waco1947 said:

"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Was the prodigal son still heir to the Kingdom while sleeping with the pigs? Granted, he did not appreciate or benefit from the fullness of his rights until he turned around and walked back (repented). But that did not change his ultimate relationship to his father. He was the son of his father before he left, while on his journey, during the walk home and when he arrived. At least according to his father's view.
The prodigal son was still son to his father, but he had no claim to any rights. He had already received his inheritance in full, which he squandered.

The cost of separation from his father would have cost him his life, as he was starving to death. Note that the father did not seek out the son to bring him back against his will; it was only when the son decided to return (repent) that the broken relationship with his father was restored. In fact, the father considered the son "lost", even "dead" while he was gone.

The parables of Luke chapter 15 (the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son) have a central theme - repentance, and the joy in heaven over a sinner who repents. Think: why be joyous over repentance if the sinner already has eternal life without it? The father of the prodigal son was joyous because his son was dead - but became alive again only after he repented. Using this parable to promote the idea of unrepentance leading to a restored relationship with God is twisting the parable 180 degrees away from its truth. This is about as bad of a false teaching as it can get.
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Waco1947 said:

"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Was the prodigal son still heir to the Kingdom while sleeping with the pigs?
If the prodigal son would have died while eating with pigs and cavorting with prostitutes, then his place would have been the fiery dung heap at Gehenna. The fact that he could realize his position as heir to his father's kingdom only after he came to his senses, repented, and returned in humility to his father and his father's ways illustrates the point exactly that repentance is a necessary prerequisite to salvation and inheriting the kingdom of God. You did not intend to make the point that you are trying to oppose, but you did make the point anyway.

If you sin daily, then something is not right. You need to understand that if you are saved, then you have victory over sin. Stop sinning. Stop listening to preachers and speakers who deliver an impotent message that holds you will always be a sinner. No you won't; unless of course, you listen to them and think yourself a victim rather than a victor.
I am not trying to oppose any point. Repentance is great. It means to acknowledge a wrong and go a different direction. Jesus commands it and I think that's great.

However, I have seen that forgiveness and love can be so powerful that repentance is not needed. This is interesting to me and for those who have experienced it, it is a type of "salvation." Little s not big S. Jesus commands us to love our enemies. What if we forgive them, love them, and they remain in a state of enmity towards us? Is there a due by date in which we can stop loving our enemies? Or are we only suppose to love our enemies if they repent and make nice?

I choose the Prodigal son story on purpose. Yes, it does show repentance. But what about the Father? That is who we are ultimately called to emulate.
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

bearhouse said:

Waco1947 said:

"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Was the prodigal son still heir to the Kingdom while sleeping with the pigs? Granted, he did not appreciate or benefit from the fullness of his rights until he turned around and walked back (repented). But that did not change his ultimate relationship to his father. He was the son of his father before he left, while on his journey, during the walk home and when he arrived. At least according to his father's view.
The prodigal son was still son to his father, but he had no claim to any rights. He had already received his inheritance in full, which he squandered.

The cost of separation from his father would have cost him his life, as he was starving to death. Note that the father did not seek out the son to bring him back against his will; it was only when the son decided to return (repent) that the broken relationship with his father was restored. In fact, the father considered the son "lost", even "dead" while he was gone.

The parables of Luke chapter 15 (the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son) have a central theme - repentance, and the joy in heaven over a sinner who repents. Think: why be joyous over repentance if the sinner already has eternal life without it? The father of the prodigal son was joyous because his son was dead - but became alive again only after he repented. Using this parable to promote the idea of unrepentance leading to a restored relationship with God is twisting the parable 180 degrees away from its truth. This is about as bad of a false teaching as it can get.
Good points. Noted. I think those parables (the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son) are about the Father restoring a right relationship with us not the other way around. I don't read them as stories of repentance but rather as stories of God's great love for us. The Bible is not sinner centric. It is God centric. We are not the star of the show. God is.

Again, I am not against repentance. Have seen in my own life that love and forgiveness has great restorative power even when repentance is not present.

BusyTarpDuster2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?


If you believe this means that Jesus forgives everyone of all sin and no repentance is necessary, and that we must likewise forgive those who sin against us even if they don't repent, then why does Jesus say in Luke 17:3 - "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him" instead of saying, "everytime your brother sins, forgive him whether he repents or not"?

You are interpreting - "forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing" as the model for all forgiveness without testing that interpretation against other parts of scripture. When you consider Jesus' own words in Luke 17:3, you know that can't be what Jesus meant.

What I believe Jesus was asking for was for God to forgive those there at the crucifixion site who "did not know what they were doing" - i.e, the Roman soldiers who were crucifying him and the crowd that cheered it on - because the soldiers were just following orders and didn't know that he was innocent, and the crowd was just cheering it on because they were brainwashed and manipulated into doing so by the Jews who wanted him dead. I do not think Jesus was offering forgiveness to those who knew exactly what they were doing - the Jews who got him crucified.
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?


If you believe this means that Jesus forgives everyone of all sin and no repentance is necessary, and that we must likewise forgive those who sin against us even if they don't repent, then why does Jesus say in Luke 17:3 - "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him" instead of saying, "everytime your brother sins, forgive him whether he repents or not"?

You are interpreting - "forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing" as the model for all forgiveness without testing that interpretation against other parts of scripture. When you consider Jesus' own words in Luke 17:3, you know that can't be what Jesus meant.

What I believe Jesus was asking for was for God to forgive those there at the crucifixion site who "did not know what they were doing" - i.e, the Roman soldiers who were crucifying him and the crowd that cheered it on - because the soldiers were just following orders and didn't know that he was innocent, and the crowd was just cheering it on because they were brainwashed and manipulated into doing so by the Jews who wanted him dead. Likewise, we are not to hold anyone accountable for hurting us if they are following authority or if they are being wickedly manipulated to do so.
All good points.

I will ask this question of you. Have you ever forgiven someone who did not ask for your forgiveness or repent? And if so, did you hold a grudge against them? Or did you free them in your heart?
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.