A New Theism God is love and its implications.

2,358 Views | 52 Replies | Last: 6 mo ago by Waco1947
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Waco1947 said:

"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Was the prodigal son still heir to the Kingdom while sleeping with the pigs? Granted, he did not appreciate or benefit from the fullness of his rights until he turned around and walked back (repented). But that did not change his ultimate relationship to his father. He was the son of his father before he left, while on his journey, during the walk home and when he arrived. At least according to his father's view.
he was still heir but, had he remained in that "far off land" he'd have never received his inheritance. He had to come back to his father for that, at least the part he'd not yet received.

Here is a portion of the story you didn't reference.
I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, (>>>this part sounds like repentance >>>) "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants."' "And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.' "But the father said to his servants, 'Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; for this >>>my son was dead and is alive again<<<( I read this as "he was dead while in the foreign land" perhaps "condemned already") ; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:18-24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke%2015:18-24&version=NKJV

I always like to watch the full movie rather than just the trailers. It help me to know what the movie is about.
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

If I pray for patience, can I expect to suddenly be patient or, is it possible that I may have a learning process to go through?
Please read this next line as a gentle tease.

Perhaps God loves you so much that he brought Waco1947 and my posting to help you develop patience. :-)

And your response will hopefully help us develop wisdom.
He doesn't love me enough to grant my prayer that 47's WiFi fail!!!
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
LIB,MR BEARS said:

bearhouse said:

Waco1947 said:

"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Was the prodigal son still heir to the Kingdom while sleeping with the pigs? Granted, he did not appreciate or benefit from the fullness of his rights until he turned around and walked back (repented). But that did not change his ultimate relationship to his father. He was the son of his father before he left, while on his journey, during the walk home and when he arrived. At least according to his father's view.
he was still heir but, had he remained in that "far off land" he'd have never received his inheritance. He had to come back to his father for that, at least the part he'd not yet received.

Here is a portion of the story you didn't reference.
I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, (>>>this part sounds like repentance >>>) "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants."' "And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.' "But the father said to his servants, 'Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; for this >>>my son was dead and is alive again<<<( I read this as "he was dead while in the foreign land" perhaps "condemned already") ; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:18-24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke%2015:18-24&version=NKJV

I always like to watch the full movie rather than just the trailers. It help me to know what the movie is about.
Yes, you are correct. Although your snide remark at the end helps me realize you are still working on patience. :-) Or maybe you just have a good sense of humor (because I did chuckle).

The OP is proposing that eternal hell is not real. It seems that he is basing that belief on the qualities of God rather than the qualities of man. The qualities of God would be love leading to forgiveness. The qualities of man would be sin leading to repentance. That's the trailer version of the movie if that's okay with you.

I bring up the prodigal son which, you have correctly noted, has a wonderful presentation of repentance. Although truly he seemed a bit self-serving. I was attempting to use this story to question how does the Father see us and whether there is anything we can do to ruin that relationship from His perspective. From the Father's perspective. From God's perspective.

Is the OP correct about the qualities of God? Does God forgive even if we don't repent? If God does, that may or may not say something about the afterlife (if there is one). It also may tells us how we should live with one another. I have forgiven without being asked. I suspect you have as well. I suspect that God does too.



Canon
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Religion of the left:

Sex=Love; Love=god; god=sex
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Waco1947 said:

"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Was the prodigal son still heir to the Kingdom while sleeping with the pigs?
If the prodigal son would have died while eating with pigs and cavorting with prostitutes, then his place would have been the fiery dung heap at Gehenna. The fact that he could realize his position as heir to his father's kingdom only after he came to his senses, repented, and returned in humility to his father and his father's ways illustrates the point exactly that repentance is a necessary prerequisite to salvation and inheriting the kingdom of God. You did not intend to make the point that you are trying to oppose, but you did make the point anyway.

If you sin daily, then something is not right. You need to understand that if you are saved, then you have victory over sin. Stop sinning. Stop listening to preachers and speakers who deliver an impotent message that holds you will always be a sinner. No you won't; unless of course, you listen to them and think yourself a victim rather than a victor.
I am not trying to oppose any point. Repentance is great. It means to acknowledge a wrong and go a different direction. Jesus commands it and I think that's great.

However, I have seen that forgiveness and love can be so powerful that repentance is not needed. This is interesting to me and for those who have experienced it, it is a type of "salvation." Little s not big S. Jesus commands us to love our enemies. What if we forgive them, love them, and they remain in a state of enmity towards us? Is there a due by date in which we can stop loving our enemies? Or are we only suppose to love our enemies if they repent and make nice?

I choose the Prodigal son story on purpose. Yes, it does show repentance. But what about the Father? That is who we are ultimately called to emulate.
I don't believe God's love ever stops on this side of the grave. But, keep in mind, at some point He says "I never knew you".
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
It's been a while since 47 has posted. I wonder if his WiFi is suddenly down.
JXL
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Why does John 3:16 specify that eternal life is for "whoever believes in him" instead of for everyone?
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
LIB,MR BEARS said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Waco1947 said:

"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Was the prodigal son still heir to the Kingdom while sleeping with the pigs?
If the prodigal son would have died while eating with pigs and cavorting with prostitutes, then his place would have been the fiery dung heap at Gehenna. The fact that he could realize his position as heir to his father's kingdom only after he came to his senses, repented, and returned in humility to his father and his father's ways illustrates the point exactly that repentance is a necessary prerequisite to salvation and inheriting the kingdom of God. You did not intend to make the point that you are trying to oppose, but you did make the point anyway.

If you sin daily, then something is not right. You need to understand that if you are saved, then you have victory over sin. Stop sinning. Stop listening to preachers and speakers who deliver an impotent message that holds you will always be a sinner. No you won't; unless of course, you listen to them and think yourself a victim rather than a victor.
I am not trying to oppose any point. Repentance is great. It means to acknowledge a wrong and go a different direction. Jesus commands it and I think that's great.

However, I have seen that forgiveness and love can be so powerful that repentance is not needed. This is interesting to me and for those who have experienced it, it is a type of "salvation." Little s not big S. Jesus commands us to love our enemies. What if we forgive them, love them, and they remain in a state of enmity towards us? Is there a due by date in which we can stop loving our enemies? Or are we only suppose to love our enemies if they repent and make nice?

I choose the Prodigal son story on purpose. Yes, it does show repentance. But what about the Father? That is who we are ultimately called to emulate.
I don't believe God's love ever stops on this side of the grave. But, keep in mind, at some point He says "I never knew you".
Is our physical death the expiration date on God's love for us? Or is there a little room for a post-mortem reconsideration? :-)
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Waco1947 said:

"Repentance" -- Jesus did indeed call for it. Mark 1 ""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."
What is Jesus saying about repentance and the kingdom?
Repentance -- Turn around go another direction.
Kingdom - The kingdom is near and coming. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom and to follow him one must repent - turn away from an old life and enter life in God's kingdom as disciple.
The Resurrected Christ still confronts me daily with the word -- Repent; daily, because i sin daily.
Was the prodigal son still heir to the Kingdom while sleeping with the pigs?
If the prodigal son would have died while eating with pigs and cavorting with prostitutes, then his place would have been the fiery dung heap at Gehenna. The fact that he could realize his position as heir to his father's kingdom only after he came to his senses, repented, and returned in humility to his father and his father's ways illustrates the point exactly that repentance is a necessary prerequisite to salvation and inheriting the kingdom of God. You did not intend to make the point that you are trying to oppose, but you did make the point anyway.

If you sin daily, then something is not right. You need to understand that if you are saved, then you have victory over sin. Stop sinning. Stop listening to preachers and speakers who deliver an impotent message that holds you will always be a sinner. No you won't; unless of course, you listen to them and think yourself a victim rather than a victor.
I am not trying to oppose any point. Repentance is great. It means to acknowledge a wrong and go a different direction. Jesus commands it and I think that's great.

However, I have seen that forgiveness and love can be so powerful that repentance is not needed. This is interesting to me and for those who have experienced it, it is a type of "salvation." Little s not big S. Jesus commands us to love our enemies. What if we forgive them, love them, and they remain in a state of enmity towards us? Is there a due by date in which we can stop loving our enemies? Or are we only suppose to love our enemies if they repent and make nice?

I choose the Prodigal son story on purpose. Yes, it does show repentance. But what about the Father? That is who we are ultimately called to emulate.
I don't believe God's love ever stops on this side of the grave. But, keep in mind, at some point He says "I never knew you".
Is our physical death the expiration date on God's love for us? Or is there a little room for a post-mortem reconsideration? :-)
Catholicism, as I understand it, at least allows room for it via Purgatory. Protestantism doesn't provide for this.

I couldn't provide you any scriptural references to support Purgatory but, I'm sure Coke Bear could.

For me, I'd rather put my faith in what I understand based on the text rather than what "could be" based on mystery.

Alistair Begg, referring to theology says of the Bible, "The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things." I like that saying and think it is very true.
bearhouse
How long do you want to ignore this user?
JXL said:

Why does John 3:16 specify that eternal life is for "whoever believes in him" instead of for everyone?
I will try to answer this question but it might not satisfy.

Jesus speaks this to Nicodemus, who was s Jewish religious leader at the time. To give you the movie trailer version, Jesus tells Nicodemus that you must be "born again." Nicodemus does not understand this term for how can we be born twice? Jesus is contrasting coming to God via being born in the flesh (Jewish lineage) versus being born of the spirit (those who believe in him).

Most of us think of the phrase "eternal life" as existing in heaven with God after we die. However, a few chapters later, John defines the term "everlasting life" as "knowing God." So, one could reason that Jesus is saying that if you believe that God so unconditionally loved the world that he gave his son (to be raised up like Moses raised up the snake to heal the world) then you "know God." Eternal life = knowing God. It is not by your fleshy birth (being born Jewish) but by your spiritual birth of believing God loves you enough to send Jesus. The Moses reference is a verse or two before (not sure exactly and inserted to make claim about His sacrifice to heal).

Jews at the time thought that they "knew God." Jesus is telling Nicodemus you don't know God unless you know me. And those that believe that God sent Jesus "know God."

In the following versus, Jesus says that those who know God are not under judgment now because they recognize God. Those who do not believe do not recognize God and are therefore experiencing judgment now. What is their judgment? That they did not know God when God appeared.

This verse does not necessarily say anything about a future afterlife. It describes a present condition. If you believe that God sent Jesus, awesome, you know God. If you don't "know God" now, then life is harder. You are lost. You do not participate in communion with God and that is a loss to you.

It doesn't necessarily make any claims about whether or not all will be saved by Jesus at some future point unless you read into it a future condition that isn't plainly in the text. It is stating what is presently factual in the here and now.

I am open to a rebuttal on this point. Always interesting in learning other people's views on this.







Coke Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearhouse said:

Is our physical death the expiration date on God's love for us? Or is there a little room for a post-mortem reconsideration? :-)

God's love for us never ends, ever after death. God loves everyone, even Satan.

Postmortem reconsideration - if you are referring to us, no. We are offered a lifetime to accept Jesus. Once we are dead, our choice is made. Our judgment is immediate. We are either bound for heaven or hell.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Catholicism, as I understand it, at least allows room for it via Purgatory. Protestantism doesn't provide for this.

I couldn't provide you any scriptural references to support Purgatory but, I'm sure Coke Bear could.



Purgatory isn't a place that offers a second chance. Purgatory is place to clean those (already bound for heaven) from the attachment of sin.

The Catechism states in paragraph 1030:

"All who die in God's grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal
salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven"

One passage that discusses the concept of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:1115 -

11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Another passage that my Protestant brethren may not accept is from 2 Maccabees 12:46 -

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Coke Bear said:

bearhouse said:

Is our physical death the expiration date on God's love for us? Or is there a little room for a post-mortem reconsideration? :-)

God's love for us never ends, ever after death. God loves everyone, even Satan.

Postmortem reconsideration - if you are referring to us, no. We are offered a lifetime to accept Jesus. Once we are dead, our choice is made. Our judgment is immediate. We are either bound for heaven or hell.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Catholicism, as I understand it, at least allows room for it via Purgatory. Protestantism doesn't provide for this.

I couldn't provide you any scriptural references to support Purgatory but, I'm sure Coke Bear could.



Purgatory isn't a place that offers a second chance. Purgatory is place to clean those (already bound for heaven) from the attachment of sin.


My wife might go straight to heaven .

But this sinner is just hoping to make it to purgatory .
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Coke Bear said:

bearhouse said:

Is our physical death the expiration date on God's love for us? Or is there a little room for a post-mortem reconsideration? :-)

God's love for us never ends, ever after death. God loves everyone, even Satan.

Postmortem reconsideration - if you are referring to us, no. We are offered a lifetime to accept Jesus. Once we are dead, our choice is made. Our judgment is immediate. We are either bound for heaven or hell.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Catholicism, as I understand it, at least allows room for it via Purgatory. Protestantism doesn't provide for this.

I couldn't provide you any scriptural references to support Purgatory but, I'm sure Coke Bear could.



Purgatory isn't a place that offers a second chance. Purgatory is place to clean those (already bound for heaven) from the attachment of sin.

The Catechism states in paragraph 1030:

"All who die in God's grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal
salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven"

One passage that discusses the concept of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:1115 -

11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Another passage that my Protestant brethren may not accept is from 2 Maccabees 12:46 -

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
thanks for clearing that up. I was certainly out of my comfort zone.
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

Coke Bear said:

bearhouse said:

Is our physical death the expiration date on God's love for us? Or is there a little room for a post-mortem reconsideration? :-)

God's love for us never ends, ever after death. God loves everyone, even Satan.

Postmortem reconsideration - if you are referring to us, no. We are offered a lifetime to accept Jesus. Once we are dead, our choice is made. Our judgment is immediate. We are either bound for heaven or hell.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Catholicism, as I understand it, at least allows room for it via Purgatory. Protestantism doesn't provide for this.

I couldn't provide you any scriptural references to support Purgatory but, I'm sure Coke Bear could.



Purgatory isn't a place that offers a second chance. Purgatory is place to clean those (already bound for heaven) from the attachment of sin.


My wife might go straight to heaven .

But this sinner is just hoping to make it to purgatory .
It's a beautiful drive and Durango is a neat little town. No, wait...
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
LIB,MR BEARS said:

Canada2017 said:

Coke Bear said:

bearhouse said:

Is our physical death the expiration date on God's love for us? Or is there a little room for a post-mortem reconsideration? :-)

God's love for us never ends, ever after death. God loves everyone, even Satan.

Postmortem reconsideration - if you are referring to us, no. We are offered a lifetime to accept Jesus. Once we are dead, our choice is made. Our judgment is immediate. We are either bound for heaven or hell.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Catholicism, as I understand it, at least allows room for it via Purgatory. Protestantism doesn't provide for this.

I couldn't provide you any scriptural references to support Purgatory but, I'm sure Coke Bear could.



Purgatory isn't a place that offers a second chance. Purgatory is place to clean those (already bound for heaven) from the attachment of sin.


My wife might go straight to heaven .

But this sinner is just hoping to make it to purgatory .
It's a beautiful drive and Durango is a neat little town. No, wait...


I have a much easier time getting to Durango ..

Coke Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

My wife might go straight to heaven .

But this sinner is just hoping to make it to purgatory .

Amen! Same here.

I'm a saint-making machine. My wife and kids will make it there for having to put up with and live with me.
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Coke Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

My wife might go straight to heaven .

But this sinner is just hoping to make it to purgatory .

Amen! Same here.

I'm a saint-making machine. My wife and kids will make it there for having to put up with and live with me.
Sounds very similar to my wife's game plan .
Forest Bueller_bf
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

bearhouse said:

Amal Shuq-Up said:

Why do you bother? Yours is a meaningless sermon and an empty idea that allows unrepentant evil to go unpunished.
How do you understand Jesus stating "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" concerning the guards/crowd who were participating in his crucifixion?

Were they offered forgiveness even though we have no evidence of mass repentance?

Was Jesus's prayer for forgiveness of them honored by God?

Or was there something else they had to do to bypass punishment? In other words, Jesus's request for their forgiveness was not enough?




They wouldn't need forgiveness if there was no punishment for their deeds.
That's not what I am asking. You posited that they had to repent to forgo punishment.

If you believe in punishment, then I hope you have an idea of how to avoid it. Jesus's forgiveness on the Cross poses an example in which repentance was not needed.

So, did Jesus's prayer for forgiveness for the unrepentant crowd have any power to avoid punishment or not?


How do you know who repented and who did not? You don't. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. For wilful sin, there is no sacrifice. You might try reading the whole book rather than isolating a few passages and adding your assumptions to those passages.
The one thief on the cross had a repentant heart. The other thief did not. The repentant thief even rebuked the other thief for his unrepentance. Repentance is to make a 180 turn in the other direction. When the one thief did repent he was at odds with the unrepentant one. You see this in life every day. Two people who live for the party, one turns to God the other still lives to party. Now they oppose each other.
Waco1947
How long do you want to ignore this user?
OsoCoreyell said:

Waco1947 said:

Premise 1 God is love (Agape Love; Unconditional Love)
Premise 2 God is perfect love which cannot contain wrath because then God's love not be perfect
I John 4: God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love.
19 We love because he first loved us.
20 Those who say, "I love God," and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen.
21 The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters, too."
God simply cannot hate us or punish us because God loves perfectly.
Premise 3 God love lets us suffer the consequences of our sin and evil.
Conclusion:But God does not punish us for free will choices for Love is God's Godness.

To believe that there is a hell for eternal damnation is simply an unknown.
Classical theism cannot prove its existence. Death is the limit of our knowledge; all else is conjecture. Hell is an analogy depicting life without God. Life without acknowledging God's love for us and the worthiness of our being loved is indeed Gehenna a garbage dump.


I like the part where you ignore pretty much the rest of scripture.
I will back my thesis up with scripture What scripture would be helpful to you for your understanding?
Waco1947
Refresh
Page 2 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.