Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I think you are presumptuous to say 'God would disagree', just because you disagree.

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Not just me. The entire magisterium and 1500 years of Christianity prior to Luther.

Oldbear83 said:

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As for history, the Protestant Reformation had and has sound reason backing its arguments.

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What did the Protestants reform? Nothing. They rebelled. Luther wanted to remove the Deuterocanonical books because they didn't fit with his theology. He also wanted to remove James, Hebrews, and Jude.

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In his later years Luther became outrageously anti-Semitic . Even to the point of wondering if it was a sin NOT to kill a Jew.

German Nazis later used many of Luther's anti- Semitic publications as a justification for their atrocities .

Maccabees may explain your murderous hatred of innocent ducks

I haven't taken time to read all this triviial pablum, but I would add one kind of person to the accruing list of who is going to hell (for the sake of the thread we'll call it a 'literal' one) and that addition of one other kind of person in fear of hell hell-fire and brimstone are those who make up lists of the kinds of people who are going to hell.

And gossips.. people who gossip are going to hell

47, I will make a judgment about you........You are one weird dude.

"What did the Protestants reform? Nothing."

Well, that's certainly bigoted.

Oldbear83 said:

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"What did the Protestants reform? Nothing."

Well, that's certainly bigoted.

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I disagree. Reformation implies change an organization. Due to Luther's personal issues and theology, he completely rebelled and left the Church. He didn't reform anything.

The Church (acting slowing) finally called the Council of Trent about 20 years too late to clarify doctrine and clean up the issues that had occurred with rogue clergy.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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"What did the Protestants reform? Nothing."

Well, that's certainly bigoted.

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I disagree. Reformation implies change an organization. Due to Luther's personal issues and theology, he completely rebelled and left the Church. He didn't reform anything.

The Church (acting slowing) finally called the Council of Trent about 20 years too late to clarify doctrine and clean up the issues that had occurred with rouge clergy.

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I thought Catholics liked rouge clergy.

90sBear said:

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I thought Catholics liked rouge clergy.

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LOL! Typing way too fast, way too early! Fixed it.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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"What did the Protestants reform? Nothing."

Well, that's certainly bigoted.

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I disagree. Reformation implies change an organization. Due to Luther's personal issues and theology, he completely rebelled and left the Church. He didn't reform anything.

The Church (acting slowing) finally called the Council of Trent about 20 years too late to clarify doctrine and clean up the issues that had occurred with rogue clergy.

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That's some weak excuses there.

First off, Luther was one man, not the sole voice calling out the RCC"s wrongs. Second, the Vatican did not exactly want a dialogue to discuss their sins - your own post admits they dragged their feet to address some very real wrongs.

The whole office of the Pontiff leads one to the way of Caiaphas. Never conflate any man with the Lord.

Oldbear83 said:

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That's some weak excuses there.

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?? Did he reform the Catholic church? No.

Oldbear83 said:

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First off, Luther was one man, not the sole voice calling out the RCC"s wrongs. Second, the Vatican did not exactly want a dialogue to discuss their sins - your own post admits they dragged their feet to address some very real wrongs.

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He rebelled. At first he did try with his 95 theses (that were never actually nailed to the door, but that's a different story.) Many of his grievances had merit because they death with the failings of men in the Church, not doctrine or dogma.

I can't speak to whether they wanted to "address some very real wrongs", but they were corrected in Trent. The Church wasn't afraid to address Luther. Debates were held. His arrogance was legendary. It may have been born out his extremely scrupulosity or insecurity due to his father issues.

The Church takes time to react. 20 years was late; however, it had to deal with a slew of heretics at that time such as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et. al. She took great pains to ensure that it clarified doctrine properly.

Oldbear83 said:

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The whole office of the Pontiff leads one to the way of Caiaphas. Never conflate any man with the Lord.

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The Church has never claimed that the Pope is the Lord.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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That's some weak excuses there.

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?? Did he reform the Catholic church? No.

Oldbear83 said:

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First off, Luther was one man, not the sole voice calling out the RCC"s wrongs. Second, the Vatican did not exactly want a dialogue to discuss their sins - your own post admits they dragged their feet to address some very real wrongs.

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He rebelled. At first he did try with his 95 theses (that were never actually nailed to the door, but that's a different story.) Many of his grievances had merit because they death with the failings of men in the Church, not doctrine or dogma.

I can't speak to whether they wanted to "address some very real wrongs", but they were corrected in Trent. The Church wasn't afraid to address Luther. Debates were held. His arrogance was legendary. It may have been born out his extremely scrupulosity or insecurity due to his father issues.

The Church takes time to react. 20 years was late; however, it had to deal with a slew of heretics at that time such as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et. al. She took great pains to ensure that it clarified doctrine properly.

Oldbear83 said:

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The whole office of the Pontiff leads one to the way of Caiaphas. Never conflate any man with the Lord.

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The Church has never claimed that the Pope is the Lord.

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Oh give me a break.

Claiming the power to forgive sins, the authority to excommunicate, starting wars to kill heathens etc,

The Pope - any of them - has grave moral liability I would fear to have on my own hands.

Oldbear83 said:

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Claiming the power to forgive sins, the authority to excommunicate, starting wars to kill heathens etc,

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John and Jesus would disagree with you ...

John 20:21-23

Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.


Please specify which wars were started "to kill heathens" so that I can research them.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Claiming the power to forgive sins, the authority to excommunicate, starting wars to kill heathens etc,

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John and Jesus would disagree with you ...

John 20:21-23

Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.


Please specify which wars were started "to kill heathens" so that I can research them.

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The Crusades ring no bell?

And last I checked, Jesus said nothing about expelling people from church and home for not worshipping the Pope.

As for forgiving sins, the problem is that the Pope made that exclusive to the clergy, believers had that power from Christ but Rome would have denied it.

Oldbear83 said:

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The Crusades ring no bell?

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I believe that you have a common and false narrative of the Crusades.

Oldbear83 said:

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And last I checked, Jesus said nothing about expelling people from church and home for not worshipping the Pope.

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Please show me where Catholics are required to worship the Pope and where they state that is an ex-communicable offense. Only God is to be worshiped.

Oldbear83 said:

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As for forgiving sins, the problem is that the Pope made that exclusive to the clergy, believers had that power from Christ but Rome would have denied it.

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Jesus made it exclusive to his apostles, who then laid hands on their successors, the bishops, who passed it to the priests.

"Only God is to be worshiped."

Indeed, something lost when the papists gained control of governments, all that wealth, and established a pogrom against all other versions of Christianity, including those far closer in practice to the 1st generation Christians.

I certainly believe there are many millions of Roman Catholics who faithfully follow Christ.

Damn few of them in the Vatican, however. And that is the history of the Roman Empire's Church.

you dont need to judge