Also part of the Mike Leach coaching tree:

Dana Holgorsen
Neal Brown
Art Briles
Sonnie Cumbie
Josh Heupel
Lincoln Riley
Kliff Kingsbury
et al

Agreements:
- 2015 was maybe Baylor's best team
- Seth Russell was headed to NYC(no guarantee of a win)
- I do think it was on pace to be a historic offense
- would've been in the running for a playoff spot and therefore legitimate shot a Natty
- statistically speaking our defense would've been a major road block to overcome. The stats are easy to find on past 10-20 champs

Disagreements:
- had the Natty in the bag. We loved laying an egg once a year under peak Briles. Morgantown and Stillwater ring some bells?
- also everyone seems to agree no one liked us winning so much, so why would they let us win a title and a Heisman and be one of the greats?
- we had no real shot at a title. Had we made and faced Bama(likely) I'd have given us a shot. Saban was still adjusting to uptempo spread attacks such as the Hugh Freeze offense(they lost to Ole Miss in 2015)… but we frequently shat the bed in big bowl games so maybe we upset Bama but then we probably lay an egg against Clemson

boykin_spaniel said:

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Agreements:
- 2015 was maybe Baylor's best team
- Seth Russell was headed to NYC(no guarantee of a win)
- I do think it was on pace to be a historic offense
- would've been in the running for a playoff spot and therefore legitimate shot a Natty
- statistically speaking our defense would've been a major road block to overcome. The stats are easy to find on past 10-20 champs

Disagreements:
- had the Natty in the bag. We loved laying an egg once a year under peak Briles. Morgantown and Stillwater ring some bells?
- also everyone seems to agree no one liked us winning so much, so why would they let us win a title and a Heisman and be one of the greats?
- we had no real shot at a title. Had we made and faced Bama(likely) I'd have given us a shot. Saban was still adjusting to uptempo spread attacks such as the Hugh Freeze offense(they lost to Ole Miss in 2015)… but we frequently shat the bed in big bowl games so maybe we upset Bama but then we probably lay an egg against Clemson

---

I agree with this 100%. Grounded in reality while acknowledging both big strengths and potential along with what could and might've tripped us up.

boykin_spaniel said:

---

Agreements:
- 2015 was maybe Baylor's best team
- Seth Russell was headed to NYC(no guarantee of a win)
- I do think it was on pace to be a historic offense
- would've been in the running for a playoff spot and therefore legitimate shot a Natty
- statistically speaking our defense would've been a major road block to overcome. The stats are easy to find on past 10-20 champs

Disagreements:
- had the Natty in the bag. We loved laying an egg once a year under peak Briles. Morgantown and Stillwater ring some bells?
- also everyone seems to agree no one liked us winning so much, so why would they let us win a title and a Heisman and be one of the greats?
- we had no real shot at a title. Had we made and faced Bama(likely) I'd have given us a shot. Saban was still adjusting to uptempo spread attacks such as the Hugh Freeze offense(they lost to Ole Miss in 2015)… but we frequently shat the bed in big bowl games so maybe we upset Bama but then we probably lay an egg against Clemson

---

Bama list to Hugh Freeze's Ole Miss two years in a row!

Nobody "let us win a title and a Heisman". We earned both. Actually 2 titles in back to back seasons & a third under Aranda. I suspect that it was sarcasm but it was unclear.

Good times…..miss them dearly.

historian said:

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I think it's fair to say that there were times under Briles in which our defense was great, namely 2013-2015. However, it was t always consistent & even in those years they made costly mistakes. And I don't think they ever reached the elite level that might have led to a victory over Bama, Georgia, Clemson or Ohio State.

---

I disagree that those Baylor defenses were great (i.e. top 20), but I agree that they weren't good enough to beat the top tier teams. That's my primary point - there is a ceiling here without a great defense, and it's as clear as day based on all of the elite offenses that have taken FBS by storm that haven't come close to winning a national title over the last 10+ years.

It friends on how you define "great". Compared to what Baylor had before, they were great. Probably the same is true compared to most of the Big 12 back then. I'm not so rigid: if our defense can stop done really good times (i.e. 2013 OU, 2013 Texas, 2014 K State, 2012 K State, 2015 Pokes, etc) that is great. It definitely is subjective & relative.

PS: I don't know how high our defenses ranked in those years. It seems the weed pretty high although not top 20.

Aberzombie1892 said:

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historian said:

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I think it's fair to say that there were times under Briles in which our defense was great, namely 2013-2015. However, it was t always consistent & even in those years they made costly mistakes. And I don't think they ever reached the elite level that might have led to a victory over Bama, Georgia, Clemson or Ohio State.

---

I disagree that those Baylor defenses were great (i.e. top 20), but I agree that they weren't good enough to beat the top tier teams. That's my primary point - there is a ceiling here without a great defense, and it's as clear as day based on all of the elite offenses that have taken FBS by storm that haven't come close to winning a national title over the last 10+ years.

---

Oregon played in the national championship game with a great offense. Alabama and LSU won their most recent championships with high powered offenses and defenses not as good as they normally have. Those are the only 2 I can think of that have done it in recent years with great offenses.

The only main difference from the 2015 team and those Alabama and LSU teams was probably talent. They had 4 and 5 star talent out the caboose. Baylor just had a sprinkling of that upper level talent here and there.

Not looking forward to playing TCU….

Agree 100%

I would like to think it's possible we will again have great offense AND great defense year after year.

historian said:

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I would like to think it's possible we will again have great offense AND great defense year after year.

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One could only hope. With UT/OU imminently falling off the regular season schedule indefinitely, the elevation of UH to P5 status, the pending potential elevation of SMU to P5 status, and the likely impact of those events on recruiting across the state of Texas, that outcome seems much less likely than it did a few years ago.

Chuckroast said:

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Reverend said:

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What I loved was we always had a chance. We were part of the discussion. And it was exciting…. and unique. I'm just glad I experienced it. I don't think it will happen again.

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Agree - this is the whole point. I can't believe some people are splitting hairs over whether we were a sure fire national championship winner or simply a playoff contender.

We were starting to be in the discussion every year, and our program was on the upswing. It sure was fun while it lasted.

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Yet had two of our best football seasons afterwards...even the greatest in 2021.

We were Wide Receiver U

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Chuckroast said:

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Reverend said:

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What I loved was we always had a chance. We were part of the discussion. And it was exciting…. and unique. I'm just glad I experienced it. I don't think it will happen again.

---

Agree - this is the whole point. I can't believe some people are splitting hairs over whether we were a sure fire national championship winner or simply a playoff contender.

We were starting to be in the discussion every year, and our program was on the upswing. It sure was fun while it lasted.

---

Yet had two of our best football seasons afterwards...even the greatest in 2021.

---

Completely different metrics. Those two teams were always playing on the back of their heels clinging on to iffy wins. I am not trying to denegrate their success. I'm especially happy for those two teams before the conference broke apart. The point to me is we won with excitement, on the edge of your seat in Briles years. We were absolutely nervous on every play in 2021.

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2019, sure. 2021 there were more games where we won fairly comfortably. Especially with that defense.

Bear8084 said:

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Chuckroast said:

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Reverend said:

---

What I loved was we always had a chance. We were part of the discussion. And it was exciting…. and unique. I'm just glad I experienced it. I don't think it will happen again.

---

Agree - this is the whole point. I can't believe some people are splitting hairs over whether we were a sure fire national championship winner or simply a playoff contender.

We were starting to be in the discussion every year, and our program was on the upswing. It sure was fun while it lasted.

---

Yet had two of our best football seasons afterwards...even the greatest in 2021.

---

2021 was a magical season with a dominant bowl win. That's why I hold out hope with the current regime.

historian said:

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I would like to think it's possible we will again have great offense AND great defense year after year.

---

With the fact that the SEC and B1G being at a level that BU and other aspire to be, NIL, tradition, $$$$, majority of the country's five and four star athletes, fanbases, Media attention… it'll be a blue moon. Not to mention looking at the level of recruits we/Big12 are getting. It's definitely a "Hoosier" movie script.

UBBY said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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historian said:

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I think it's fair to say that there were times under Briles in which our defense was great, namely 2013-2015. However, it was t always consistent & even in those years they made costly mistakes. And I don't think they ever reached the elite level that might have led to a victory over Bama, Georgia, Clemson or Ohio State.

---

I disagree that those Baylor defenses were great (i.e. top 20), but I agree that they weren't good enough to beat the top tier teams. That's my primary point - there is a ceiling here without a great defense, and it's as clear as day based on all of the elite offenses that have taken FBS by storm that haven't come close to winning a national title over the last 10+ years.

---

Oregon played in the national championship game with a great offense. Alabama and LSU won their most recent championships with high powered offenses and defenses not as good as they normally have. Those are the only 2 I can think of that have done it in recent years with great offenses.

The only main difference from the 2015 team and those Alabama and LSU teams was probably talent. They had 4 and 5 star talent out the caboose. Baylor just had a sprinkling of that upper level talent here and there.

---

Did Oregon win that national title game? It may surprise some in this thread, but the team that won the national title after the 2014 season had a top 20 defense.

Separately, 2019 LSU and 2020 Alabama both had top 20 defenses (there is a theme here).

Finally, and again, no one is saying that a good offense is not needed to win a national title. It's just not enough if it's coupled with a non-elite P5 defense.

I don't know if we'd have won a natty but I doubt if 2015 Baylor got there they'd lose by 60 in the title game

No, they would have held their own & been somewhat competitive.

historian said:

---

Also part of the Mike Leach coaching tree:

Dana Holgorsen
Neal Brown
Art Briles
Sonnie Cumbie
Josh Heupel
Lincoln Riley
Kliff Kingsbury
et al

---

I don't consider briles part of that. Yeah, he was on the staff for what a year or two? He coached 18 years prior to that..

montypython said:

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EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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ImwithBU said:

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We have been reeling since the day the BOR "cried out to God"

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Two Sugar Bowls, a Big 12 championship and a higher end of season ranking than Briles ever got. Yeah, we've been reeling.

---

the disaster that was 2016 and 2017 certainly qualifies as reeling. Throw in the fact that Aranda doesn't appear to know what he is doing, not on the offensive side of things at least, doesn't help. The Fedora hire was a bad move. The Grimes hire is a bad move. Canning our defensive coordinator from our Big 12 title team was questionable at best. We can neither develop nor recruit top QBs. Our OL has been mediocre since 2017. Poor charlie got beat up something bad while he was here. Bohanon could at least run away from most of the pressure. The new guy just goes to the fetal position.
We are reeling, you just don't see it because the Big 12 title has fogged your vision.

---

"Doesn't know what he is doing..." Yet led the best Baylor football season. After the hiring of Grimes. Also in 2021 the o-line was fairly decent. It was ranked the best o-line of the week for a few games.

Defense was a glaring weakness last season and the players and coach had tension. Judging from player and coaches reactions to the new d-coordinator hire, it seems to be the right move. The season of course will be the real test, but calling it questionable it is not.

Bear8084 said:

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montypython said:

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EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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ImwithBU said:

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We have been reeling since the day the BOR "cried out to God"

---

Two Sugar Bowls, a Big 12 championship and a higher end of season ranking than Briles ever got. Yeah, we've been reeling.

---

the disaster that was 2016 and 2017 certainly qualifies as reeling. Throw in the fact that Aranda doesn't appear to know what he is doing, not on the offensive side of things at least, doesn't help. The Fedora hire was a bad move. The Grimes hire is a bad move. Canning our defensive coordinator from our Big 12 title team was questionable at best. We can neither develop nor recruit top QBs. Our OL has been mediocre since 2017. Poor charlie got beat up something bad while he was here. Bohanon could at least run away from most of the pressure. The new guy just goes to the fetal position.
We are reeling, you just don't see it because the Big 12 title has fogged your vision.

---

"Doesn't know what he is doing..." Yet led the best Baylor football season. After the hiring of Grimes. Also in 2021 the o-line was fairly decent. It was ranked the best o-line of the week for a few games.

Defense was a glaring weakness last season and the players and coach had tension. Judging from player and coaches reactions to the new d-coordinator hire, it seems to be the right move. The season of course will be the real test, but calling it questionable it is not.

---

And, to be clear, Baylor had an -elite- defense in 2021 and it rode that defense - coupled with Grimes' offense - to a Big 12 title.

Also, that other poster saying "We are reeling, you just don't see it because the Big 12 title has fogged your vision" is one of the wildest sentences I have ever seen on this board. It's like saying "Baylor winning a conference title doesn't compensate for the fact that Baylor is bad."

Aberzombie1892 said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

montypython said:

---

EvilTroyAndAbed said:

---

ImwithBU said:

---

We have been reeling since the day the BOR "cried out to God"

---

Two Sugar Bowls, a Big 12 championship and a higher end of season ranking than Briles ever got. Yeah, we've been reeling.

---

the disaster that was 2016 and 2017 certainly qualifies as reeling. Throw in the fact that Aranda doesn't appear to know what he is doing, not on the offensive side of things at least, doesn't help. The Fedora hire was a bad move. The Grimes hire is a bad move. Canning our defensive coordinator from our Big 12 title team was questionable at best. We can neither develop nor recruit top QBs. Our OL has been mediocre since 2017. Poor charlie got beat up something bad while he was here. Bohanon could at least run away from most of the pressure. The new guy just goes to the fetal position.
We are reeling, you just don't see it because the Big 12 title has fogged your vision.

---

"Doesn't know what he is doing..." Yet led the best Baylor football season. After the hiring of Grimes. Also in 2021 the o-line was fairly decent. It was ranked the best o-line of the week for a few games.

Defense was a glaring weakness last season and the players and coach had tension. Judging from player and coaches reactions to the new d-coordinator hire, it seems to be the right move. The season of course will be the real test, but calling it questionable it is not.

---

And, to be clear, Baylor had an -elite- defense in 2021 and it rode that defense - coupled with Grimes' offense - to a Big 12 title.

Also, that other poster saying "We are reeling, you just don't see it because the Big 12 title has fogged your vision" is one of the wildest sentences I have ever seen on this board. It's like saying "Baylor winning a conference title doesn't compensate for the fact that Baylor is bad."

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Not just a Big 12 Title, also that elusive NY6 Bowl win too. Against a big time SEC opponent.

And exactly!

Aberzombie1892 said:

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DustyM said:

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You shouldn't speak for everyone.

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Let me rephrase: No one -reasonably- believes that Baylor would have won the 2015 national title but for Seth Russel's injury.

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Are these the same reasonable people that thought Baylor football would never leave the BIG XII cellar when Art Briles was hired? Asking for a friend...

Aberzombie1892 said:

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UBBY said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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historian said:

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I think it's fair to say that there were times under Briles in which our defense was great, namely 2013-2015. However, it was t always consistent & even in those years they made costly mistakes. And I don't think they ever reached the elite level that might have led to a victory over Bama, Georgia, Clemson or Ohio State.

---

I disagree that those Baylor defenses were great (i.e. top 20), but I agree that they weren't good enough to beat the top tier teams. That's my primary point - there is a ceiling here without a great defense, and it's as clear as day based on all of the elite offenses that have taken FBS by storm that haven't come close to winning a national title over the last 10+ years.

---

Oregon played in the national championship game with a great offense. Alabama and LSU won their most recent championships with high powered offenses and defenses not as good as they normally have. Those are the only 2 I can think of that have done it in recent years with great offenses.

The only main difference from the 2015 team and those Alabama and LSU teams was probably talent. They had 4 and 5 star talent out the caboose. Baylor just had a sprinkling of that upper level talent here and there.

---

Did Oregon win that national title game? It may surprise some in this thread, but the team that won the national title after the 2014 season had a top 20 defense.

Separately, 2019 LSU and 2020 Alabama both had top 20 defenses (there is a theme here).

Finally, and again, no one is saying that a good offense is not needed to win a national title. It's just not enough if it's coupled with a non-elite P5 defense.

---

I'm a little surprised those 2 had top 20 defenses. From what I remembered those 2 teams weren't as good defensively when I watched them. Of course that was just my eye test.

Mothballs said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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DustyM said:

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You shouldn't speak for everyone.

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Let me rephrase: No one -reasonably- believes that Baylor would have won the 2015 national title but for Seth Russel's injury.

---

Are these the same reasonable people that thought Baylor football would never leave the BIG XII cellar when Art Briles was hired? Asking for a friend...

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To be fair, the Big 12 has changed significantly between the date Briles was hired and the end of the previous round of Big 12 realignment (Nebraska/Texas A&M/Colorado/Missouri were replaced with TCU/WVU), so it's apples to oranges to compare what the Big 12 was in 2008 to what was from 2011-on.