Bearknuckle said:

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parch said:

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boognish_bear said:

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I never understand all the shxtting on CMR.

I would take him back right now. It sucked we were his stepping stone to the NFL....and he did have a little used car salesman to him (like a lot of successful HCs)...but he was good.

He gave us an identity, gave us toughness, knew how to hold leads, and was putting guys in the NFL. With Bell and Joey opening doors he eventually had THSCA singing his and Baylor's praises.

He made a lot of right moves and got us through a very precarious time when our program could have been set back 10 to 20 years.

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I just assume everyone destroying Rhule for being a mercenary has never accepted a better job offer for more money, responsibility and prestige. Because otherwise they are the height of hypocrisy as they'd do the exact same thing in the exact same scenario. The only difference in this case is that they have green/gold glasses on.

Rhule took us to a conference title game two years after he got here while still mired in the aftershocks of one of the great CFB scandals of our time and laid the foundations for the greatest season in Baylor football history. As far as I'm concerned, that completely absolves him of any jilted lover fantasies so many on this board retain to this day.

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I don't hate on Rhule for wanting to go to the NFL - he was always very clear on that. But when you start slacking off current job duties because you're concentrating on landing the new gig - yeah that's a problem.

So while you're right about what he did *for* Baylor, that doesn't magically absolve him of what he did *to* Baylor on his way out the door: it doesn't magically wave away his miss rate on recruiting over his last two years.

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Based on the utter lack of player development the past four years, I think the "miss rate" is as attributable to our current staff as the last. Rhule developed the players he brought to campus. It's not his fault his successor couldn't.

parch said:

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Bearknuckle said:

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Russell Gym said:

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Bearknuckle said:

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parch said:

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boognish_bear said:

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I never understand all the shxtting on CMR.

I would take him back right now. It sucked we were his stepping stone to the NFL....and he did have a little used car salesman to him (like a lot of successful HCs)...but he was good.

He gave us an identity, gave us toughness, knew how to hold leads, and was putting guys in the NFL. With Bell and Joey opening doors he eventually had THSCA singing his and Baylor's praises.

He made a lot of right moves and got us through a very precarious time when our program could have been set back 10 to 20 years.

---

I just assume everyone destroying Rhule for being a mercenary has never accepted a better job offer for more money, responsibility and prestige. Because otherwise they are the height of hypocrisy as they'd do the exact same thing in the exact same scenario. The only difference in this case is that they have green/gold glasses on.

Rhule took us to a conference title game two years after he got here while still mired in the aftershocks of one of the great CFB scandals of our time and laid the foundations for the greatest season in Baylor football history. As far as I'm concerned, that completely absolves him of any jilted lover fantasies so many on this board retain to this day.

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I don't hate on Rhule for wanting to go to the NFL - he was always very clear on that. But when you start slacking off current job duties because you're concentrating on landing the new gig - yeah that's a problem.

So while you're right about what he did *for* Baylor, that doesn't magically absolve him of what he did *to* Baylor on his way out the door: it doesn't magically wave away his miss rate on recruiting over his last two years.

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Yeah, I wish "slacking off" always included a run to the Big 12 Championship & Sugar Bowl, after a historic scandal and negativity coming from every direction at Baylor. If we could only be so lucky.

And, if only he could have left the next staff good enough players to win the Big 12 and Sugar Bowl with the next coach …

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2019 was nearly as much smoke & mirrors as TCU's '22 - UGA exposed exactly how far from actually elite we were that year (much as LSU did with OU). We were on the lucky side of the bounces all year that year, had wonderful injury luck as well overall. It was a fun ride, but Rhule hadn't already built some juggernaut.

Everyone claims we give too much credit to Aranda for '21, but '19 is the outlier for Rhule at this point too...

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Smoke and mirrors? Who cares? W's are what matters, no matter the path you take there. If it took "smoke and mirrors" to convince recruits to come and build what eventually became the best football team in a century of the program, what difference is it to you? At this time I'd take all the smoke and all the mirrors if it means we're playing relevant games in November again.

This is what I mean by the green/gold glasses. There's always a "yeah but" with some people and Rhule, as if none of what he did is really fully credible because of reasons. There are maybe a handful of guys in America who could've done what he did with the circumstances he was given, and why some folks can't just leave it there smacks of some weird deep wound they can't let go.

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Mental toughness is a developed trait, and the ability to remain comfortable in late, close situations is a skill. Matt Rhule's teams consistently exhibited both. Dave Aranda's have consistently displayed the opposite.

The 2019 and 2022 teams weren't all that different in overall talent level. The difference is one coach developed a team equipped to win close games and the other didn't. That's not a coincidence and shouldn't be treated as such. Since we've lost the residual carry-over from Rhule's culture post-2021, we've looked like a rudderless mess.

Where Matt Rhule's teams and Aranda's 2021 squad consistently made winning plays, every team we've had since does the opposite. Winning teams make winning plays. Losing teams make losing plays.

BUBBFAN said:

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Then, what you are saying is Dave was just a really bad hire. This I agree with.

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Nope. but that's funny.

Dave was a *developmental* hire. The assumption was it wouldn't take long for him to get the hang of things, but then again, the effects of COVID on '20 & '21 weren't even remotely being contemplated (how could they have been?).

'21 was ahead-of-schedule success that felt natural to fans because in our fan hive-mind, '19 portended a sure return to the promise of the peak [redacted] years, and '21 felt like a continuation of that after the weird bump of '20 and COVID's first wave.

But in hindsight, '19 was a pretty special season but not necessarily indicative that a special program was being built - '21 happened and reinforced that ultimately unjustified perception.

BUT! '21 also proved that Dave's program can develop players (the best of Rhule's remaining bunch had as much time with Dave as the had with Rhule) and coach them in big moments. So yeah i'm disappointed as hell at the last 10 games minus UCF - some far more than others.

But no, I don't think Dave was a bad hire. He was a sky-high ceiling hire (esp. in Culture Fit) but with risk, and some of that risk has been realized, certainly.

Bearknuckle said:

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parch said:

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Bearknuckle said:

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parch said:

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Bearknuckle said:

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parch said:

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Bearknuckle said:

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2019 was nearly as much smoke & mirrors as TCU's '22 - UGA exposed exactly how far from actually elite we were that year (much as LSU did with OU). We were on the lucky side of the bounces all year that year, had wonderful injury luck as well overall. It was a fun ride, but Rhule hadn't already built some juggernaut.

Everyone claims we give too much credit to Aranda for '21, but '19 is the outlier for Rhule at this point too...

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Smoke and mirrors? Who cares? W's are what matters, no matter the path you take there. If it took "smoke and mirrors" to convince recruits to come and build what eventually became the best football team in a century of the program, what difference is it to you? At this time I'd take all the smoke and all the mirrors if it means we're playing relevant games in November again.

This is what I mean by the green/gold glasses. There's always a "yeah but" with some people and Rhule, as if none of what he did is really fully credible because of reasons. There are maybe a handful of guys in America who could've done what he did with the circumstances he was given, and why some folks can't just leave it there smacks of some weird deep wound they can't let go.

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I don't understand why saying Rhule was great for Baylor, but his recruiting was a very mixed bag, the ugliest bits of which are bearing rotten fruit now - that's not nursing some old perceived slight, it's dealing with the final direct outcomes of Rhule's tenure.

FWIW, I think if he hadn't been so intent on the NFL, if he'd been truly trying to build his own empire in Waco, the recruiting trend would likely have been phenomenal given the available evidence. But that didn't happen because Rhule+Baylor was always a marriage of convenience on one side and necessity on the other. Unless Phil Snow was the majority of Rhule's CFB secret sauce, I think he'll build something special at NU eventually, as he does seem to be ready to be there for the long haul.

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I guess you're going to have to explain what "bearing rotten fruit" means in this context. He recruited both of our Big 12 championship game teams in their entirety (minus Jalen Pitre). Aranda got a sprinting start as HC. Any rotten fruit borne out today is Aranda's.

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I think you're a bit confused on the timeline here...
Apu Ika, Dillon Doyle, Jacob Gall, Grant Miller, Drew Estrada, Blake Shapen - all key contributors to that season who were Aranda recruits or tranfers.

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Fair enough, exaggeration on my part for the 2021 season. But point stands that the foundations for that team were set by Rhule, so I'm not sure where this "rotten fruit" argument comes from that somehow he's sabotaging this team from the grave four years after he left.

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then you've missed the endless discussion on this topic over the last four weeks. way too much to rehash here - Aranda & Co. bear the bulk of responsibility for what's happened roster-wise, but bottom line Rhule's 2019 class wasn't great, and Aranda's '20 class was super rushed because of the timeline of Rhule's departure.

While it's true that Rhule had a similarly compressed timeline when he got to Baylor, he had the benefit of bringing an established recruiting machine with him, and getting some super adds in McGuire, Wetzel and Bell.

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Your second paragraph sounds a lot like you're just saying Matt Rhule knew how to be a head coach/organize a program and Dave Aranda didn't. That's a big part of the problem now. He's still learning on the job four years later -- to our program's detriment.

Blaming Rhule for anything we're experiencing now is silly. This is Dave Aranda's program at this point, and he's had plenty of time to remedy any recruiting holes through the transfer portal -- a tool Rhule never had at his disposal.

bear2be2 said:

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Blaming Rhule for anything we're experiencing now is silly. This is Dave Aranda's program at this point, and he's had plenty of time to remedy any recruiting holes through the transfer portal -- a tool Rhule never had at his disposal.

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i'm too busy to discuss in detail now, but between systemic issues with the portal (a dearth of *proven* P5 OL and DL that Baylor can afford) plus Baylor's slow start on NIL, combined with an overemphasis on certain aspects of 'Person Over Player" (Dave's admitted to that) created a bubble of roster problems we're still working through.

Dave hasn't been perfect, but I still think he and his staff can get this turned around (but at best that means making a bowl this year, which sucks).

Bearknuckle said:

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parch said:

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I mean... isn't that Rhule's doing though? The staff he put together? Does he not get credit for that? Both who he brought with him and who he hired from Adam?

I think this is part of the main issue here. Rhule gets dinged for having a better staff than Aranda, and Aranda gets dinged for not putting together as good of a staff as Rhule. The coach is over all of it. Staff success is HC success, and vice versa.

I just think blaming Rhule for any part of Aranda's failures is weak sauce and smacks of agenda. Rhule left Aranda with more in the cupboard than most coaches get.

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"dinged" you're the one assigning values here - i'm just describing reality.

Matt Rhule was a long-time HC with long-tenured assistants in every facet of his program.

Dave Aranda was a DC who's HC career began just as the pandemic set in...

So I'm saying that Rhule's first recruiting class was far better than Dave's despite similar timelines, because Rhule came in both with a well developed staff of his own, and was gifted several Texas HC coaches with great connections.

Dave came into a situation needing to learn/develop his own roster building strategy while putting together a staff that was partially comprised of hold overs, one of whom had been the second place finisher in the job search.

That's about as apples to oranges as you're going to get.

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Then we're arguing on different planes, because what you're describing is not a failure of Rhule's or even Aranda's but of Mack Rhoades'. Rhule objectively surrounded himself with a better staff, which is his credit. Aranda objectively surrounded himself with a worse staff, which is his detriment. Mack hired both.

Otherwise, Rhule had his own challenges to overcome that were neither more difficult nor easier than Aranda's. They were different. Rhule overcame his by the time he left as evidenced by a massive three-year improvement in W/L. Aranda has gone the opposite direction.

Bearknuckle said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Blaming Rhule for anything we're experiencing now is silly. This is Dave Aranda's program at this point, and he's had plenty of time to remedy any recruiting holes through the transfer portal -- a tool Rhule never had at his disposal.

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i'm too busy to discuss in detail now, but between systemic issues with the portal (a dearth of *proven* P5 OL and DL that Baylor can afford) plus Baylor's slow start on NIL, combined with an overemphasis on certain aspects of 'Person Over Player" (Dave's admitted to that) created a bubble of roster problems we're still working through.

Dave hasn't been perfect, but I still think he and his staff can get this turned around (but at best that means making a bowl this year, which sucks).

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That's where you and I differ. I think this goose is cooked. Too many rookie mistakes have left us with a weak staff, an incoherent identity and a poorly constructed roster. Even if Aranda had the organizational leadership to fix both issues (I don't believe he does), he lacks the time.

He'll probably get one more lame duck season, and it will go how most here expect it to off a 3-9 or 4-8 season this year.

bear2be2 said:

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Bearknuckle said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Blaming Rhule for anything we're experiencing now is silly. This is Dave Aranda's program at this point, and he's had plenty of time to remedy any recruiting holes through the transfer portal -- a tool Rhule never had at his disposal.

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i'm too busy to discuss in detail now, but between systemic issues with the portal (a dearth of *proven* P5 OL and DL that Baylor can afford) plus Baylor's slow start on NIL, combined with an overemphasis on certain aspects of 'Person Over Player" (Dave's admitted to that) created a bubble of roster problems we're still working through.

Dave hasn't been perfect, but I still think he and his staff can get this turned around (but at best that means making a bowl this year, which sucks).

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That's where you and I differ. I think this goose is cooked. Too many rookie mistakes have left us with a weak staff, an incoherent identity and a poorly constructed roster. Even if Aranda had the organizational leadership to fix both issues (I don't believe he does), he lacks the time.

He'll probably get one more lame duck season, and it will go how most here expect it to off a 3-9 or 4-8 season this year.

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Truth

boognish_bear said:

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I never understand all the shxtting on CMR.

I would take him back right now. It sucked we were his stepping stone to the NFL....and he did have a little used car salesman to him (like a lot of successful HCs)...but he was good.

He gave us an identity, gave us toughness, knew how to hold leads, and was putting guys in the NFL. With Bell and Joey opening doors he eventually had THSCA singing his and Baylor's praises.

He made a lot of right moves and got us through a very precarious time when our program could have been set back 10 to 20 years.

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Oddly enough now it is set back 10-20 years. Maybe forever.

Fre3dombear said:

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boognish_bear said:

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I never understand all the shxtting on CMR.

I would take him back right now. It sucked we were his stepping stone to the NFL....and he did have a little used car salesman to him (like a lot of successful HCs)...but he was good.

He gave us an identity, gave us toughness, knew how to hold leads, and was putting guys in the NFL. With Bell and Joey opening doors he eventually had THSCA singing his and Baylor's praises.

He made a lot of right moves and got us through a very precarious time when our program could have been set back 10 to 20 years.

---

Oddly enough now it is set back 10-20 years. Maybe forever.

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Nah. We're one good hire away from getting the train back on the tracks. But we've got to acknowledge that it's off before we can go and make that hire, and I think that's another year away.

Fre3dombear said:

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boognish_bear said:

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I never understand all the shxtting on CMR.

I would take him back right now. It sucked we were his stepping stone to the NFL....and he did have a little used car salesman to him (like a lot of successful HCs)...but he was good.

He gave us an identity, gave us toughness, knew how to hold leads, and was putting guys in the NFL. With Bell and Joey opening doors he eventually had THSCA singing his and Baylor's praises.

He made a lot of right moves and got us through a very precarious time when our program could have been set back 10 to 20 years.

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Oddly enough now it is set back 10-20 years. Maybe forever.

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Bro we were in a Big 12 title game three years after one of the biggest CFB scandals ever. If that couldn't keep us down a dumpy two-year run with a baldheaded yoga teacher sure won't.

ScottS said:

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You don't think Aranda could do a speech like this??

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From a bald clown preaching person over player? Not even if he got shyte-faced drunk.

KD liked it

This is it. https://t.co/YFDsFg0fb8

— Kevin Durant (@KDTrey5) October 13, 2023

Big12Bear said:

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Good speech. I think this was right before getting down 45-0 to Michigan

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He always was better at talking than coaching.

boognish_bear said:

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I never understand all the shxtting on CMR.

I would take him back right now. It sucked we were his stepping stone to the NFL....and he did have a little used car salesman to him (like a lot of successful HCs)...but he was good.

He gave us an identity, gave us toughness, knew how to hold leads, and was putting guys in the NFL. With Bell and Joey opening doors he eventually had THSCA singing his and Baylor's praises.

He made a lot of right moves and got us through a very precarious time when our program could have been set back 10 to 20 years.

---

The reality is Rhule might have been a great coach here or an absolute disaster. He left after 3 seasons, only one of them good, with zero wins over ranked teams, and played all 3 seasons with a lot of inherited players.

So, who knows? He was a bad hire because everyone but Rhoades knew he wanted into the NFL ASAP the day he arrived. Bad coach at Baylor? Who knows. He wasn't here long enough for us to know either way.

Aranda is a weird one, though. He delivered our best season ever (not near our best team but still) and then is absolutely awful 9 months later.

Rhule has a 61-73 record as a head coach. 4 winning seasons in 11 total. He is 14-30 since leaving Baylor. Why is he even a footnote at this point?

boognish_bear said:

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I never understand all the shxtting on CMR.

I would take him back right now. It sucked we were his stepping stone to the NFL....and he did have a little used car salesman to him (like a lot of successful HCs)...but he was good.

He gave us an identity, gave us toughness, knew how to hold leads, and was putting guys in the NFL. With Bell and Joey opening doors he eventually had THSCA singing his and Baylor's praises.

He made a lot of right moves and got us through a very precarious time when our program could have been set back 10 to 20 years.

---

Yeah he sure held that lead against OU in 2019 didn't he. How many points did we score in the 2nd half?

boognish_bear said:

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I never understand all the shxtting on CMR.

I would take him back right now. It sucked we were his stepping stone to the NFL....and he did have a little used car salesman to him (like a lot of successful HCs)...but he was good.

He gave us an identity, gave us toughness, knew how to hold leads, and was putting guys in the NFL. With Bell and Joey opening doors he eventually had THSCA singing his and Baylor's praises.

He made a lot of right moves and got us through a very precarious time when our program could have been set back 10 to 20 years.

---

Very true.

BearTruth13 said:

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Rhule has a 61-73 record as a head coach. 4 winning seasons in 11 total. He is 14-30 since leaving Baylor. Why is he even a footnote at this point?

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An overall losing record and yet a large bank account.

Bearknuckle said:

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parch said:

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Bearknuckle said:

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parch said:

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Bearknuckle said:

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2019 was nearly as much smoke & mirrors as TCU's '22 - UGA exposed exactly how far from actually elite we were that year (much as LSU did with OU). We were on the lucky side of the bounces all year that year, had wonderful injury luck as well overall. It was a fun ride, but Rhule hadn't already built some juggernaut.

Everyone claims we give too much credit to Aranda for '21, but '19 is the outlier for Rhule at this point too...

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Smoke and mirrors? Who cares? W's are what matters, no matter the path you take there. If it took "smoke and mirrors" to convince recruits to come and build what eventually became the best football team in a century of the program, what difference is it to you? At this time I'd take all the smoke and all the mirrors if it means we're playing relevant games in November again.

This is what I mean by the green/gold glasses. There's always a "yeah but" with some people and Rhule, as if none of what he did is really fully credible because of reasons. There are maybe a handful of guys in America who could've done what he did with the circumstances he was given, and why some folks can't just leave it there smacks of some weird deep wound they can't let go.

---

I don't understand why saying Rhule was great for Baylor, but his recruiting was a very mixed bag, the ugliest bits of which are bearing rotten fruit now - that's not nursing some old perceived slight, it's dealing with the final direct outcomes of Rhule's tenure.

FWIW, I think if he hadn't been so intent on the NFL, if he'd been truly trying to build his own empire in Waco, the recruiting trend would likely have been phenomenal given the available evidence. But that didn't happen because Rhule+Baylor was always a marriage of convenience on one side and necessity on the other. Unless Phil Snow was the majority of Rhule's CFB secret sauce, I think he'll build something special at NU eventually, as he does seem to be ready to be there for the long haul.

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I guess you're going to have to explain what "bearing rotten fruit" means in this context. He recruited both of our Big 12 championship game teams in their entirety (minus Jalen Pitre). Aranda got a sprinting start as HC. Any rotten fruit borne out today is Aranda's.

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I think you're a bit confused on the timeline here...
Apu Ika, Dillon Doyle, Jacob Gall, Grant Miller, Drew Estrada, Blake Shapen - all key contributors to that season who were Aranda recruits or tranfers.

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he was incorrect when he said 'entirety' but that does not change the fact that rhule left this program in far better shape than when he started and aranda now in year four has the wheels falling off

“They say a man who gets down on his knees has forgotten how to die”

Another week, another speech where Coach Rhule has me ready to meet our maker

Trash day Wednesday can’t come soon enough pic.twitter.com/1oL80PStwH

— Will Compton (@_willcompton) October 17, 2023

Sadly humbling......how every single one of us would take that back in a heart beat now over clappity clappity clap......

Rhule is the best talking coach in college or pro. Not saying best coach, but best talking coach.

David smoak just re-tweeted a speech he gave in PRACTICE. Someone should post it.

Goodness gracious... The reigning champion of nonsense who's raking in the dough... Matty should slow down a bit; he's had way too many victories in his first year. With its intuitive interface and comprehensive features, the Melbet app https://mlbtbd.com/app/ provides an enjoyable and seamless betting experience for all users.

Aranda's winning pct in all 3 categories as a HC, a HC at the collegiate level as a HC at Baylor is higher than Rhule's in each category.

PartyBear said:

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Aranda's winning pct in all 3 categories as a HC, a HC at the collegiate level as a HC at Baylor is higher than Rhule's in each category.

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Aranda inherited a championship level program and took it to Big 12 basement in four years. Rhule inherited a scandal-ridden dumpster fire and had us playing for a Big 12 championship in three years.

Rhule will be successful at Nebraska -- just as he was at Temple and Baylor -- because he's an excellent program builder/college head coach. Aranda will be a coordinator within three years because he's not.

Baylor had just won a bowl game and finished 7-6 the night before Rhule's first day in the job at Baylor. Did Baylor have issues? Yes. But it was not the dumpster fire some of you have created as folklore to surround Rhule in.

You also said he would have the Panthers in the Super Bowl or play offs by year 3 or 4 or something along those lines as well when he first got that job.

PartyBear said:

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You said he would have the Panthers in the Super Bowl or play offs by year 3 or 4 as well when he first got that job.

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No I didn't. I don't ever predict college coaches to be successful in the NFL. I thought he had a chance to make that transition, but you just pulled that Super Bowl nonsense straight out of your ass.

But for as 100 percent, unequivocally wrong as you've been about both Rhule and Aranda, one would think you'd talk less on both topics.

Lol! Clearly deflecting away about your Rhule to the NFL postings a few years ago in which you were quite wrong. Just as I am sure you will claim you never said Rhule would be great at Nebraska should he end up fired there.

Rhule is not one of the historic legends of the game as some of you appear to think based on obsessive postings like it even 4 years later. I am 100% right about that.

And the winning pcts of Aranda and Rhule I spoke of above are just facts.

PartyBear said:

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Lol! Clearly deflecting away about your Rhule to the NFL postings a few years ago in which you were quite wrong.

Rhule is not one of the historic legends of the game as some of you appear to think based on obsessive postings like it even 4 years later. I am 100% right about that.

And the winning pcts of Aranda and Rhule I spoke of above are just facts.

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Facts without any pertinent context. When Rhule is successful at Nebraska, you'll continue to post meaningless winning percentages without any acknowledgement of the state of the programs he inherited.

But he will be successful, and only clowns who can't accept that Matt Rhule is a really damn good college football coach will be surprised.

PartyBear said:

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Baylor had just won a bowl game and finished 7-6 the night before Rhule's first day in the job at Baylor. Did Baylor have issues? Yes. But it was not the dumpster fire some of you have created as folklore to surround Rhule in.

You also said he would have the Panthers in the Super Bowl or play offs by year 3 or 4 or something along those lines as well when he first got that job.

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We were basically pulling dudes off the street to fill in the gaps of our offensive line. Anu Solomon was absolutely terrible. Our best quarterback was freshman Charlie Brewer which is crazy to think about, because Charlie was not some world beater himself

Seems a little weird to publicly critique your player

Just show up to lift and meetings on time. https://t.co/vx7WDK9nut

— Evan Cooper (@evancooper2) October 18, 2023

bear2be2 said:

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PartyBear said:

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Lol! Clearly

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only clowns who can't accept that Matt Rhule is a really damn good college football coach still be surprised.

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this

Other comments on sign stealing (must watch): pic.twitter.com/sMzSKxVXy0

— 247Huskers (@247Huskers) October 24, 2023

This pre-game speech by @CoachMattRhule will give you CHILLS. pic.twitter.com/DplgNIcPvs

— Robert Griffin III (@RGIII) November 2, 2023