Dia del DougO said:

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Actually, I think depending on the major and course load, it runs from 58k to 61k.

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Somebody give this man more stars than just me.

hodedofome said:

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Dia del DougO said:

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Actually, I think depending on the major and course load, it runs from 58k to 61k.

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Somebody give this man more stars than just me.

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Ashamed to say that it took me a sec

Full time college on a campus at TCU & Baylor (good not great schools) is becoming a luxury item that only the rich kids get to experience. A degree in Accounting (I have one) from Baylor is not that much better than you can get for less money elsewhere. When I entered Public Accounting after about 3 months no one cared where people had gone to school, they just wanted folks who could do the job. Hard working smart people that get the job done seem to do well in my experience regardless of the name on the diploma. YMMV but that has been my experience.

IMHO the future is online college for the masses. They will miss the campus "experience" but save a lot of money. I could be wrong though, maybe I am underestimating the number of people willing to borrow $$$ to get a degree they could get elsewhere for less.

Jacques Strap said:

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Full time college on a campus at TCU & Baylor (good not great schools) is becoming a luxury item that only the rich kids get to experience. A degree in Accounting (I have one) from Baylor is not that much better than you can get for less money elsewhere. When I entered Public Accounting after about 3 months no one cared where people had gone to school, they just wanted folks who could do the job. Hard working smart people that get the job done seem to do well in my experience regardless of the name on the diploma. YMMV but that has been my experience.

IMHO the future is online college for the masses. They will miss the campus "experience" but save a lot of money. I could be wrong though, maybe I am underestimating the number of people willing to borrow $$$ to get a degree they could get elsewhere for less.

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I can't think of a better way to minimize even more the relational blessing of presence learning and maximize the relational damage of imagining education as a process where people's heads are opened, funnels inserted, and more information poured in.

ScottS said:

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Mine at BU was $4500 per year

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Mine was $25 per semester hour. Yes, I'm old.

My advice to high school students is to evaluate their educational options on a global level.

There are a lot of universities in Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and other parts of the world that offer an excellent education for far less money.

canoso said:

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Jacques Strap said:

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Full time college on a campus at TCU & Baylor (good not great schools) is becoming a luxury item that only the rich kids get to experience. A degree in Accounting (I have one) from Baylor is not that much better than you can get for less money elsewhere. When I entered Public Accounting after about 3 months no one cared where people had gone to school, they just wanted folks who could do the job. Hard working smart people that get the job done seem to do well in my experience regardless of the name on the diploma. YMMV but that has been my experience.

IMHO the future is online college for the masses. They will miss the campus "experience" but save a lot of money. I could be wrong though, maybe I am underestimating the number of people willing to borrow $$$ to get a degree they could get elsewhere for less.

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I can't think of a better way to minimize even more the relational blessing of presence learning and maximize the relational damage of imagining education as a process where people's heads are opened, funnels inserted, and more information poured in.

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At some point the ROI doesn't make sense, and whatever benefits the college experience used to give, is thrown out because it'll put you in debt for the rest of your life.

Doc Holliday said:

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Universities have massive endowments and they're charging insane prices that in most cases don't yield a return to beat loan interests.

They want taxpayers to pay for this issue…but we should seize the endowments instead.

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It's such an obvious scam.

College has never been more unaffordable…while University endowments have never been bigger.

Aberzombie1892 said:

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Krieg said:

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morethanhecouldbear said:

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Government assistance (pell grants, low interest loans) were set up to give more kids access to college - and in that way it succeeded.

Unfortunately, schools have raised tuition to astronomical levels over the past 16 years and there is nothing in the market to check those increases. More government aid and funding is not the answer, either.

I told my wife the kids are going to have to get some substantial scholarships, or they will need to go to a community college for a couple years and transfer in as a Junior. That alone will save between $60k and $120k, depending on where you transfer to.

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The real problem was when Obama guaranteed all the loans. They could now charge $1 million in tuition and a bank would loan you government-guaranteed money to pay it all. There's no risk to the lender, so why not?

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Wait are you saying that you believe that Obama started the student loan program? If so, have you done any research into this topic at all?

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https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/obama-created-student-loan-crisis-with-1-trillion-in-loans/

You need to do the research. Clinton created it, but Obama's expansion led to massive increases in federally backed loans, which anyone can qualify for, which leads to higher tuitions. That article is 8 years old and before a lot of the increases in tuition, but it details the massive rise in loans early into that policy.

Krieg said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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Krieg said:

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morethanhecouldbear said:

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Government assistance (pell grants, low interest loans) were set up to give more kids access to college - and in that way it succeeded.

Unfortunately, schools have raised tuition to astronomical levels over the past 16 years and there is nothing in the market to check those increases. More government aid and funding is not the answer, either.

I told my wife the kids are going to have to get some substantial scholarships, or they will need to go to a community college for a couple years and transfer in as a Junior. That alone will save between $60k and $120k, depending on where you transfer to.

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The real problem was when Obama guaranteed all the loans. They could now charge $1 million in tuition and a bank would loan you government-guaranteed money to pay it all. There's no risk to the lender, so why not?

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Wait are you saying that you believe that Obama started the student loan program? If so, have you done any research into this topic at all?

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https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/obama-created-student-loan-crisis-with-1-trillion-in-loans/

You need to do the research. Clinton created it, but Obama's expansion led to massive increases in federally backed loans, which anyone can qualify for, which leads to higher tuitions. That article is 8 years old and before a lot of the increases in tuition, but it details the massive rise in loans early into that policy.

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First, and to be clear, the federal government started guaranteeing student loans in the 1960s. Do you dispute that?

Second, that article is an editorial - which raises its own concerns - but it only talks about the federal government taking over the loans from private lenders. To be clear here, the federal government was guaranteeing the loans provided by those private lenders before taking them over. Do you dispute that?

If there is no dispute on those two items, then everyone is on the same page.

Aberzombie1892 said:

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Krieg said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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Krieg said:

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morethanhecouldbear said:

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Government assistance (pell grants, low interest loans) were set up to give more kids access to college - and in that way it succeeded.

Unfortunately, schools have raised tuition to astronomical levels over the past 16 years and there is nothing in the market to check those increases. More government aid and funding is not the answer, either.

I told my wife the kids are going to have to get some substantial scholarships, or they will need to go to a community college for a couple years and transfer in as a Junior. That alone will save between $60k and $120k, depending on where you transfer to.

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The real problem was when Obama guaranteed all the loans. They could now charge $1 million in tuition and a bank would loan you government-guaranteed money to pay it all. There's no risk to the lender, so why not?

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Wait are you saying that you believe that Obama started the student loan program? If so, have you done any research into this topic at all?

---

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/obama-created-student-loan-crisis-with-1-trillion-in-loans/

You need to do the research. Clinton created it, but Obama's expansion led to massive increases in federally backed loans, which anyone can qualify for, which leads to higher tuitions. That article is 8 years old and before a lot of the increases in tuition, but it details the massive rise in loans early into that policy.

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First, and to be clear, the federal government started guaranteeing student loans in the 1960s. Do you dispute that?

Second, that article is an editorial - which raises its own concerns - but it only talks about the federal government taking over the loans from private lenders. To be clear here, the federal government was guaranteeing the loans provided by those private lenders before taking them over. Do you dispute that?

If there is no dispute on those two items, then everyone is on the same page.

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So you're both on the same page that Obama expanded the program massively, resulting in this mess. Just want to make sure that you two are on the same page.

Baylor began exploding its tuition in the mid 90s.

canoso said:

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Jacques Strap said:

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Full time college on a campus at TCU & Baylor (good not great schools) is becoming a luxury item that only the rich kids get to experience. A degree in Accounting (I have one) from Baylor is not that much better than you can get for less money elsewhere. When I entered Public Accounting after about 3 months no one cared where people had gone to school, they just wanted folks who could do the job. Hard working smart people that get the job done seem to do well in my experience regardless of the name on the diploma. YMMV but that has been my experience.

IMHO the future is online college for the masses. They will miss the campus "experience" but save a lot of money. I could be wrong though, maybe I am underestimating the number of people willing to borrow $$$ to get a degree they could get elsewhere for less.

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I can't think of a better way to minimize even more the relational blessing of presence learning and maximize the relational damage of imagining education as a process where people's heads are opened, funnels inserted, and more information poured in.

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That sounds good.. but its too vague to be useful. The whole thing has already been turned upside down. Only well off kids will have the luxury to "experience" and "grow." Others will learn in more pragmatic, practical ways. The era of a bunch of middle class kids like the Boomer generation to about 2018 going to a young adult "experience" will start to wane.

Other regions of the world use the no frills model for colleges or has a non college track enter trade/designated career paths. The US has a hodgepodge of this that doesn't work great.

Jacques Strap said:

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Full time college on a campus at TCU & Baylor (good not great schools) is becoming a luxury item that only the rich kids get to experience. A degree in Accounting (I have one) from Baylor is not that much better than you can get for less money elsewhere. When I entered Public Accounting after about 3 months no one cared where people had gone to school, they just wanted folks who could do the job. Hard working smart people that get the job done seem to do well in my experience regardless of the name on the diploma. YMMV but that has been my experience.

IMHO the future is online college for the masses. They will miss the campus "experience" but save a lot of money. I could be wrong though, maybe I am underestimating the number of people willing to borrow $$$ to get a degree they could get elsewhere for less.

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Agreed overall with the sentiment although their are some small exceptions.

Bu has somehow kept their student body to avg median income right around UT's and A&M's. Will be difficult to maintain that in the future. Tcu's avg median income of their student body is much higher. Which says many of their top kids are going to BU on near full scholarship or UT/A&M on significant scholly.

Anecdote.. but the award events I've seen in TX (not DFW) all the top award kids not going to top/top (MIT, Yale, Caltech, etc.) are going to either UT, BU, or A&M. Nearly evenly split. A few Smu. Most on near full scholly (BU) or significant scholly (UT/A&M). Very few, if any, top performers in the state outside of DFW are going to Tcu.

They get a lot of out of state kids, which are probably the majority at the school. Nobody I knew relatively high on the academic ladder in Tx considered Tcu. Bu and A&M had more overlap and some between Bu and UT due to the religious component but with real academics unlike a random direction baptist U or some school they didn't respect. All that said, it will probably fade for all but the best of schools or those that don't have a wildly strong niche with endowment to match.

Bu needed to get their endowment to $4-$5B + during this last bull run to help stave off these coming issues. Their disjointedness and disorganization over the last 20 yrs will probably cause major future problems.

PartyBear said:

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Not football related but man that is insane. It according to the report I was reading the tuition there is higher than at Harvard. I did not do my own research on that assertion.

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Does the raised tuition also come with a lifetime discount to Goldee's?

Quinton said:

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Jacques Strap said:

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Full time college on a campus at TCU & Baylor (good not great schools) is becoming a luxury item that only the rich kids get to experience. A degree in Accounting (I have one) from Baylor is not that much better than you can get for less money elsewhere. When I entered Public Accounting after about 3 months no one cared where people had gone to school, they just wanted folks who could do the job. Hard working smart people that get the job done seem to do well in my experience regardless of the name on the diploma. YMMV but that has been my experience.

IMHO the future is online college for the masses. They will miss the campus "experience" but save a lot of money. I could be wrong though, maybe I am underestimating the number of people willing to borrow $$$ to get a degree they could get elsewhere for less.

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Agreed overall with the sentiment although their are some small exceptions.

Bu has somehow kept their student body to avg median income right around UT's and A&M's. Will be difficult to maintain that in the future. Tcu's avg median income of their student body is much higher. Which says many of their top kids are going to BU on near full scholarship or UT/A&M on significant scholly.

Anecdote.. but the award events I've seen in TX (not DFW) all the top award kids not going to top/top (MIT, Yale, Caltech, etc.) are going to either UT, BU, or A&M. Nearly evenly split. A few Smu. Most on near full scholly (BU) or significant scholly (UT/A&M). Very few, if any, top performers in the state outside of DFW are going to Tcu.

They get a lot of out of state kids, which are probably the majority at the school. Nobody I knew relatively high on the academic ladder in Tx considered Tcu. Bu and A&M had more overlap and some between Bu and UT due to the religious component but with real academics unlike a random direction baptist U or some school they didn't respect. All that said, it will probably fade for all but the best of schools or those that don't have a wildly strong niche with endowment to match.

Bu needed to get their endowment to $4-$5B + during this last bull run to help stave off these coming issues. Their disjointedness and disorganization over the last 20 yrs will probably cause major future problems.

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That is good to hear. +1

Back in the day my tuition was $55 an hour. When my son got his accounting degree we ran some calculations and found that to earn a Baylor Accounting degree was 7 times more expensive AFTER considering inflation. Now lucky for me he had some nice scholarships so we didn't pay full load, but for anyone paying full tuition the same Accounting degree cost 7 times more than mine did on an inflation adjusted basis. His dgree may have been better than mine but I doubt the degree was 7 times better. I just do not see how you can have Accounting degrees increasing in cost at 7x the rate of inflation for too many generations before no one will be able to afford it. The economist Herb Stein said "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop" and at some point people will begin to stop paying giant tuition bills for degrees they can earn elsewhere for less.

Krieg said:

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morethanhecouldbear said:

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Government assistance (pell grants, low interest loans) were set up to give more kids access to college - and in that way it succeeded.

Unfortunately, schools have raised tuition to astronomical levels over the past 16 years and there is nothing in the market to check those increases. More government aid and funding is not the answer, either.

I told my wife the kids are going to have to get some substantial scholarships, or they will need to go to a community college for a couple years and transfer in as a Junior. That alone will save between $60k and $120k, depending on where you transfer to.

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The real problem was when Obama guaranteed all the loans. They could now charge $1 million in tuition and a bank would loan you government-guaranteed money to pay it all. There's no risk to the lender, so why not?

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He also allowed 9/11 to happen and withheld information from Israel on the imminent attacks of October 23.

Hadn't heard that. What an asinine decision to make that a criteria for ranking. Is it supposedly a positive if someone is "first generation"? That has no bearing on the quality of education received!

Drisk said:

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Hadn't heard that. What an asinine decision to make that a criteria for ranking. Is it supposedly a positive if someone is "first generation"? That has no bearing on the quality of education received!

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Its almost as if rankings were designed to achieve some objective other than the stated one. No real surprise there sadly.

Btw, Abiline Christian University is almost 60K *all in* (according to my wife). Makes me laugh when I see their advertisement pop up here on sicem365, says something like "an affordable Christian university"... on a Baylor page. Great marketing imo. But with ACU it's not cheap, and you'll have a degree that isn't nationally recognized.

(Nothing against ACU, it's a good school, and I will consider mentioning it to my kids when the time comes, just need to see the real discounted price for consideration.)

Krieg said:

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morethanhecouldbear said:

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Government assistance (pell grants, low interest loans) were set up to give more kids access to college - and in that way it succeeded.

Unfortunately, schools have raised tuition to astronomical levels over the past 16 years and there is nothing in the market to check those increases. More government aid and funding is not the answer, either.

I told my wife the kids are going to have to get some substantial scholarships, or they will need to go to a community college for a couple years and transfer in as a Junior. That alone will save between $60k and $120k, depending on where you transfer to.

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The real problem was when Obama guaranteed all the loans. They could now charge $1 million in tuition and a bank would loan you government-guaranteed money to pay it all. There's no risk to the lender, so why not?

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Well, if college student A goes to school X and signs over their life with government backed loans, the school gets that money pretty quick. Once they have it, that's it. The government can't go back retroactively and say the student didn't pay the loan, so you have to give us the money back. So, the 'guarantee' doesn't affect the school at all. Just the lender.

However, you can blame tuition increases on Obama if you want.

PartyBear said:

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JP1037 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Is TCU actually known for anything academically? Not a slam, exactly, just don't have any idea why someone would go there. And the few TCU people I've run into weren't exactly top tier so I can't really judge because I know that similar types can be found at BU and SMU as well. But all things being equal on a resume other than schooling, I'd hire BU, SMU, well before TCU.

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Rich kid party frat school.

Baylor is not in a great position to throw stones at TCU for this but at least we are uniquely faith-based and have more legit academics.

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Who wants to pay nearly as much so that Chapel is required? The legit academics perhaps. I know Baylor has been working on that. However I frankly have a hard time arguing that even Baylor currently is worth the sticker price.

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Depends on who BU is trying to run with. Getting a job out of College and being able to work for the rest of your life the goal and support your family? If so, BU is great.

If you are looking to invest and cash out in 5 years, I would not say BU is the place. The SMU's. Rice's and Ivy's do that.

I don't think the mission of BU is to allow you to hoard as much money as a small Caribbean nation like some of the schools promise through Tech or Hedge funds.

Aberzombie1892 said:

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BellCountyBear said:

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I wonder what percentage of folks actually pay the sticker price at any private school? I know I didn't for either one of my kids to attend Baylor.

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The answer is that it's extremely nuanced.

For example, wealthiest and highest profile schools (i.e. Ivy League and similar schools) do not give "merit" based aid and only provide "need" based aid that is determined based on the family income of the student. This results in wealthy students paying near full or full price, while average and poorer students are subsidized, although, to be fair, more wealthy than non wealthy students attend this schools. Many institutions that are committed to average and below family ties have publicly announced income cutoffs that insure no loans if a family has income below that cutoff.

In contrast, the tier under the wealthiest tier do not meet 100% of need for average and poorer students but they do heavily subsidize wealthy students in exchange for buying test scores/goals/applications. For example, a student could get into Duke but have to pay full price because of family income but they could go to WashU with a 50% merit based scholarship. In that scenario, WashU would have positioned itself as a safety school for the Duke applicant, but WashU would buy itself into the mix with its large merit scholarship.

The short answer is: wealthy families pay full price at elite schools but are heavily subsidized at the tier under that. Non-wealthy families should focus on schools that have cutoffs that guarantee no loans if a family income is below that marker.

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there is a lot of nuance going on there

schools have internal formulas and weighted criteria that they use when accepting students and providing aid

i applied to and was admitted to a prestigious school, but effectively was not admitted to said school because my offer wasn't that good. presumably when compared to other applicants that were admitted, i was less desirable and received a lower offer

thales said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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BellCountyBear said:

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I wonder what percentage of folks actually pay the sticker price at any private school? I know I didn't for either one of my kids to attend Baylor.

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The answer is that it's extremely nuanced.

For example, wealthiest and highest profile schools (i.e. Ivy League and similar schools) do not give "merit" based aid and only provide "need" based aid that is determined based on the family income of the student. This results in wealthy students paying near full or full price, while average and poorer students are subsidized, although, to be fair, more wealthy than non wealthy students attend this schools. Many institutions that are committed to average and below family ties have publicly announced income cutoffs that insure no loans if a family has income below that cutoff.

In contrast, the tier under the wealthiest tier do not meet 100% of need for average and poorer students but they do heavily subsidize wealthy students in exchange for buying test scores/goals/applications. For example, a student could get into Duke but have to pay full price because of family income but they could go to WashU with a 50% merit based scholarship. In that scenario, WashU would have positioned itself as a safety school for the Duke applicant, but WashU would buy itself into the mix with its large merit scholarship.

The short answer is: wealthy families pay full price at elite schools but are heavily subsidized at the tier under that. Non-wealthy families should focus on schools that have cutoffs that guarantee no loans if a family income is below that marker.

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there is a lot of nuance going on there

schools have internal formulas and weighted criteria that they use when accepting students and providing aid

i applied to and was admitted to a prestigious school, but effectively was not admitted to said school because my offer wasn't that good. presumably when compared to other applicants that were admitted, i was less desirable and received a lower offer

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My daughter got into Tulane. When I met with the Financial Aid Dept, they basically said you can't afford to send your daughter. Thanks... Loyola- New Orleans put together a package that allowed her to go. Loyola-Chicago was same way, they bend over backwards to put together a package that worked.

Tulane seemed to take pleasure telling people they can't afford it, there were about 5 families at the bar at the hotel that had same experience. Miami, FL was same. She called and said I got a 34 on ACT but your cut off is 35 for full academic, they said 34 is not 35. She got laughable amount of offer. Depends on the school.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Is TCU actually known for anything academically? Not a slam, exactly, just don't have any idea why someone would go there. And the few TCU people I've run into weren't exactly top tier so I can't really judge because I know that similar types can be found at BU and SMU as well. But all things being equal on a resume other than schooling, I'd hire BU, SMU, well before TCU.

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SMU is far better than TCU....academically.