The Rhule Hire - Hindsight

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BaylorOkie
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4:38p, 9/3/19
I was excited about the hire on day one, but then was really down on CMR after year one. If the old Baylorfans posts were still accessible, we could search my posts and probably find me grumbling about him.

However, the following Spring I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. I believed he had previous success for a reason and would end up being a very good coach for us. I have been back on the train since then.

I tip my hat to those that didn't waiver like I did. And I especially tip my hat to ADMR for the hire. He didn't have the luxury of hindsight like we have today.

So, what does the hire look like in hindsight? Specifically looking at Baylor's other realistic options and compared to hires by other schools. IMO, it's looking pretty good.

I don't know who our other viable options were other than Chad Morris, and I like Rhule over him.

Here are other notable hires in 2017:

Tom Herman - Texas
PJ Fleck - Minnesota
Willie Taggart - Oregon
Jeff Brohm - Purdue
Lincoln Riley - Oklahoma
Charlie Strong - USF
Lane Kiffin - FAU
Randy Edsall - UCONN
Ed Orgeron - LSU
Luke Fickell - Cincinnati
Butch Davis - FIU
Justin Wilcox - California
Major Applewhite - Houston
Jeff Tedford - Fresno State
Jay Norvell - Nevada
Shawn Elliot- Georgia St

There are a few really good hires on that list. I think our hire of Rhule is in the upper echelon.
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MilliVanilli
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4:57p, 9/3/19
We didn't offer anyone but Rhule, but Gundy's agent reached out to Baylor, as did Larry Fedora's.

But Matt Rhule was Mack Rhoades' guy all along, so fortunately we never need to know who the backup plan was going to be.

Rumor has it that Jeff Brohm was the conversation, but I can't confirm that beyond conjectures.
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RegentCoverup
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5:15p, 9/3/19
There is a sort of 'Chicken Little" mentality among Baylor fans that suggests that ONLY Briles could win at Baylor. that's also been a popular narrative in the 10-15 year old sports journalism field, where most 'writers' have such scant research skills as to look back and evaluate Baylor's football program.

My 'anchor' experience was seeing Baylor's program in 1989. Floyd Casey Stadium was lackluster, our weightroom was a disaster and the spending on the overall program was less than the median across the SouthWest Conference. And yet, Baylor still managed to overachieve. Grant Teaff was an exceptional recruiter and leader that went head to head with better funded programs and scratched out wins. His offenses were anemic at times and the salaries for assistants were simply too low. But in taking a step back and looking at it purely from a ROI perspective, Baylor was successful. Baylor had talent.

The determining factor is and will always be, leadership. For our program to be a success, we need to continue the commitment of our BMD's, but minimize the nepotistic and destructive patterns of the Board of Regents. Since the reign of Kevin Steele, the consistent theme in our programs' failing has been the involvement of inept regents and unqualified administrators.

IMO, Rhule has been placed in impossible circumstances and has been a qualified success.
Some of that is due to his abilities, some of that is a function of the overall commitment.

But I believe he can win ten games in a season and if he does, he'll have reached a huge milestone.

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Dman
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5:31p, 9/3/19
I'm on the record for supporting Rhule from day 1. But year 1 was tough. He earned some of the criticism (not all). He had more talent than 1 win. He's said as much.

It was his recruiting that kept my hope alive. All I asked is that he continue to improve with his talent. He has. This year is a big year.

As for comparing coaches. I never saw the benefit. Teaff was amazing. Briles was as well. Rhule didn't create the chaos he inherited. It's not disloyal to support him while acknowledging Briles as a genius in many ways...yet he had his flaws. I hope Rhule surpasses them both.

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historian
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5:55p, 9/3/19
This is a great thread with lots of intelligent discussion. I just hope the usual suspects don't hijack it.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
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PartyBear
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6:01p, 9/3/19
Well......even if you don't count at all the disasterous year 1, we are 8-6 over the last 14 games. I expect that to improve a lot this season. But right now we should never go back to be thrilled with about a .500 record. Rhule does not seem like a Steele like hire like he did his first year once play on the field began. But before we start saying upper echelon hire, let's see if the program gets back to upper echelon. Btw I think it will but the jury is still out.
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historian
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6:23p, 9/3/19
I think we all have high expectations (or at least many of us) out of hope and because of CMR's record at Temple. Clearly he was hired because ADMR believed he could replicate something like that here. We all want to see that too.

It's good that the team has set the goal for 2019 of 10 wins and Big 12 title contention. Even if we don't make it (unlikely), it's a good goal to have and it's reasonable--especially this year. I compare it to last year's goal of 40 sacks. We weren't even close but it's worth striving for. Even if it takes a couple years to achieve, it's a worthy goal and it moves the program forward. I want another Big 12 title & 10 win season. I can be patient.

Sic 'em Bears!
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
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BUbearinARK
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In reply to PartyBear • 6:25p, 9/3/19
PartyBear said:
Well......even if you don't count at all the disasterous year 1, we are 8-6 over the last 14 games. I expect that to improve a lot this season. But right now we should never go back to be thrilled with about a .500 record. Rhule does not seem like a Steele like hire like he did his first year once play on the field began. But before we start saying upper echelon hire, let's see if the program gets back to upper echelon. Btw I think it will but the jury is still out.
Your metrics are through a pessimist prism. Understandable, but not how I view the program (and life). Viewed as a vector, I see someone who is transformational. On and off the field. Upper echelon, indeed.
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chorne68
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7:29p, 9/3/19
I was very impressed with how he came in and hired good coaches, including the Texas high school coaches. They recruited very well and I was very impressed by the athletes that came to Baylor. He said all the right things and was a great public speaker. Then...year number one started. He was a terrible coach that year. No way with the athletes on the team they should have lost 11 games to the poor competition. I did not think he could turn it around. They made progress in year two so I thought maybe he would be ok. I am now on the CMR team and think he can build a winning program. He has been good for Baylor.
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BigOleBear
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7:32p, 9/3/19
I admit I thought CMR was a complete mistake after the early losses, given so much left over talent from CAB era. Seemed he fiddled around with the QB decision when Baylor Nation wanted Zack Smith to start, coming off the bowl win. Bone head calls and not using returning players didn't help his cause and alienated the fan base.

Now here we are with a rapidly improving and very competitive team again. I think even with 9-10 wins there'll always be a number of people, me included, that prefer scoring in 4-5 plays versus a slow methodical pro style offense. I miss the cocky swagger at mid field before kickoff. But I do see a coach that players respect and have bought into his process and for that I'm excited about the future.

Will Baylor fans continue to mention the incredible CAB days, absolutely. But I plan to move ahead never forgetting that recent span of years beating the cows and wagon drivers. Moving on and cheering the Bears but never forgetting our recent successes and celebrating those players and coaches that put Baylor on the map.
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historian
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7:43p, 9/3/19
I like both. I certainly would like to see more of those scores in 1-2 plays. We've had a few of them the past two years, but it seems like it wasn't nearly as many. I also wouldn't mind the occasional 70+ point blowout. I don't think we will see any of those under CMR & certainly not 4 or more in one season. But there are other ways to win games and to get to 10 wins, a conference title, & the playoffs.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
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RegentCoverup
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7:43p, 9/3/19
(Begin rant)

And for any members of the clickbait media reading this, let me be the first to say:

Choke yourself.

Do you own research. Come up with an original analysis of the Baylor program. Use facts and verifiable sources. If the theme is 'reeling from scandal,' you're wrong. The 'scandal' was a social media driven uproar and nothing approaching the level of what happened at Penn State. It was only a scandal to the degree that it threatened the balance of college football. Not saying there weren't problems and the firings weren't justified, but every program in U.S. college football has the problems that Baylor experienced. if there was any scandal IMO, it was in the way the university handled the cases.

If you copied the work of Texas Monthly, do us a favor and ask them to share their sources. We'd love to know the identify of the source that posted with an IP address from the U.K. with ONE post on the Baylor fans website that has yet to step forward and acknowledge their opinion since the article aired.

Details provided below:

https://www.texasmonthly.com/article/silence-at-baylor/

Ukwuachu's suspension for a violation of team rules, though rumors certainly indicated that some people on the school's campus knew which team rule Ukwuachu violated: Baylor fan boards included students telling each other things like "you're hearing the same things that I'm hearing and it's serious" and "If you like guys like Tevin Elliot[t], then you want Ukwuachu on this team." Yet still, it would seem no local reporters on the Baylor beat managed to make the trip to the downtown courthouse to type the name "Ukwuachu" to confirm if the rumors were true.

No person affiliated with this website or the predecessor has EVER corroborated the identities of the persons that made those comments. As I mentioned before, that post was made by a person with ONE post in their history from an IP address in the UK and it was pointed out immediately after it occurred. Yet it magically ended up as a key feature in the Texas Monthly article.

So if you want to write a post-Briles, new Rhule era story at Baylor, be careful about citing the work of Texas Monthly as fact. There are holes in the TM story that have yet to be validated, corroborated or proven true.

(/end rant)
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Dia del DougO
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8:46p, 9/3/19
It would have been interesting to see an alternate timeline in which Lincoln Riley went to another program that wasn't already built up.
"The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool."
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boognish_bear
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8:59p, 9/3/19
Good thread OP

My biggest concern with Rhule coming in were the possible issues with the "fish out of water" dynamics of him being from the northeast and a B1G type coach. Wasn't sure how Texas HS coaches would receive him or how his stated football philosophy would translate in the B12. As has been stated earlier he did a masterful job of filling out his staff with highly regarded coaches with deep Texas HS connections and cred.

Wins and losses will always be the ultimate measuring stick and I certainly have a lot of optimism in that area right now.

But in addition to leading a winning program CMR seems like the perfect fit for BU because it seems his faith is a big part of his make up. I'm not sure that some of those other coaches would bring that dynamic the way he does. It feels like the football corollary to Coach Drew.

He seems to aspire to the NFL....so we may not have him for too long if the winning continues....but he's really beginning to seem like the near perfect fit.
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Sailor Bear
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9:03p, 9/3/19
With the exception of a handful of lunatics, I think most people have come around to at least giving CMR the time he's allowed to build his program, his way. However, we have Art to thank for raising the bar around here. We are no longer OK with bowl eligibility. We intend to win conference championships and compete for major bowls. So truthfully, any coach that fails to get us back to that level will, rightly or wrongly, be viewed as somewhat of a failure.

Saying that, I fully expect for us to win another conference championship in the near future and for Matt Rhule to be the one hoisting the trophy. He's not there yet, obviously, but if he continues to build this thing up, I have little doubt he can be one of the greatest coaches Baylor's ever had. So far, so good.
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BearlyBeloved
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10:04p, 9/3/19
One important thing to mention about Grant Teaff. His teams played great DEFENSE. So far the coaches who came after have not come close to Teaff's defenses. Rhule's offense is clicking. If the defense can come close to Teaff's, all the competitors had best Beware the Bear.
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Mothra
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In reply to RegentCoverup • 12:14a, 9/4/19
TellMeYouLoveMe said:
There is a sort of 'Chicken Little" mentality among Baylor fans that suggests that ONLY Briles could win at Baylor. that's also been a popular narrative in the 10-15 year old sports journalism field, where most 'writers' have such scant research skills as to look back and evaluate Baylor's football program.

My 'anchor' experience was seeing Baylor's program in 1989. Floyd Casey Stadium was lackluster, our weightroom was a disaster and the spending on the overall program was less than the median across the SouthWest Conference. And yet, Baylor still managed to overachieve. Grant Teaff was an exceptional recruiter and leader that went head to head with better funded programs and scratched out wins. His offenses were anemic at times and the salaries for assistants were simply too low. But in taking a step back and looking at it purely from a ROI perspective, Baylor was successful. Baylor had talent.

The determining factor is and will always be, leadership. For our program to be a success, we need to continue the commitment of our BMD's, but minimize the nepotistic and destructive patterns of the Board of Regents. Since the reign of Kevin Steele, the consistent theme in our programs' failing has been the involvement of inept regents and unqualified administrators.

IMO, Rhule has been placed in impossible circumstances and has been a qualified success.
Some of that is due to his abilities, some of that is a function of the overall commitment.

But I believe he can win ten games in a season and if he does, he'll have reached a huge milestone.



As someone who was excited about the CMR hire from day one, and then was disappointed by what happened in year one, I can say I am very pleased with the direction the program is headed. However, for me the question has not been, can CMR be successful but instead whether he can have Briles level success without the nuclear offense that allowed us to compete with the big boys. I still have my doubts we can do things more conventionally and compete with the blue bloods. I think the Briles offense was the great equalizer in terms of talent disparity. All of that said, I don't see that as a slight against CMR, but simply question whether we will ever see the kind of success we experienced under Briles. We will see.
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Dia del DougO
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10:55a, 9/4/19
I'm still in wait and see mode. Last season was a good step, after pretty much a lost debut season. but I haven't been wowed by any brilliant scheming, and many of the same problems seem to return again and again, like giving up the big plays. I need to see Baylor whip some good teams on the field, not just make a good showing by being scrappy and persistent. Baylor needs to manufacture much more offense against teams that play good defense, something that hasn't really happened yet.

The building process is much further along. Now it's time to see what the next level looks like, assuming that next step happens.
"The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool."
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Aberzombie1892
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In reply to Dia del DougO • 11:50a, 9/4/19
Dia del DougO said:
It would have been interesting to see an alternate timeline in which Lincoln Riley went to another program that wasn't already built up.
To be fair, OU signed 0 top 10 classes from the 2011 class through the 2016 class (according to 247), so it would appear as though his arrival (as OC and subsequently as HC) had a significant positive impact on the quality of OU's roster.
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RegentCoverup
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In reply to Mothra • 3:11p, 9/4/19
Mothra said:
TellMeYouLoveMe said:
There is a sort of 'Chicken Little" mentality among Baylor fans that suggests that ONLY Briles could win at Baylor. that's also been a popular narrative in the 10-15 year old sports journalism field, where most 'writers' have such scant research skills as to look back and evaluate Baylor's football program.

My 'anchor' experience was seeing Baylor's program in 1989. Floyd Casey Stadium was lackluster, our weightroom was a disaster and the spending on the overall program was less than the median across the SouthWest Conference. And yet, Baylor still managed to overachieve. Grant Teaff was an exceptional recruiter and leader that went head to head with better funded programs and scratched out wins. His offenses were anemic at times and the salaries for assistants were simply too low. But in taking a step back and looking at it purely from a ROI perspective, Baylor was successful. Baylor had talent.

The determining factor is and will always be, leadership. For our program to be a success, we need to continue the commitment of our BMD's, but minimize the nepotistic and destructive patterns of the Board of Regents. Since the reign of Kevin Steele, the consistent theme in our programs' failing has been the involvement of inept regents and unqualified administrators.

IMO, Rhule has been placed in impossible circumstances and has been a qualified success.
Some of that is due to his abilities, some of that is a function of the overall commitment.

But I believe he can win ten games in a season and if he does, he'll have reached a huge milestone.



As someone who was excited about the CMR hire from day one, and then was disappointed by what happened in year one, I can say I am very pleased with the direction the program is headed. However, for me the question has not been, can CMR be successful but instead whether he can have Briles level success without the nuclear offense that allowed us to compete with the big boys. I still have my doubts we can do things more conventionally and compete with the blue bloods. I think the Briles offense was the great equalizer in terms of talent disparity. All of that said, I don't see that as a slight against CMR, but simply question whether we will ever see the kind of success we experienced under Briles. We will see.


Valid point, but know that the media will spin it that the ONLY reason we were successful under Briles is that he played with talent that shouldn't have been on the field. That's the fundamental flaw in the media attack that needs to be scrutinized by the 'professional' media.
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Bubear2020
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In reply to Mothra • 3:16p, 9/4/19
I think playing defense and special teams will help with that. I believe we are the only big 12 team that played better than expected in all 3 facets of the game on Saturday. I didn't get to watch everyone one close but from what I could tell that's accurate. Playing all 3 parts of the game will win you a lot of games.
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historian
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4:14p, 9/4/19
Is there any such thing as a "professional" media these days. Certainly not if you look at the mainstream media's political & economic reporting!
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
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Dman
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4:21p, 9/4/19
As for the "media". If Rhule can continue to improve, he's setup perfectly regarding the media. The one thing the media loves as much as a scandal they created is a "comeback" narrative they feel they're responsible for creating as well. Never mind that both are self serving. The perfect storm would have Rhule riding that wave with recruits etc. They killed one program, the least they could do is help rebuild another.
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Dia del DougO
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5:00p, 9/4/19
There's no doubt a good coach can win at Baylor. They have some advantages at their disposal, especially with the newish beautiful stadium, new and improving facilities and an overall strong athletic program. They are in a great area for recruiting advantages.

Get it done and let's enjoy some great football. There's still a ways to go to get back to winning conference championships, and hopefully beyond.
"The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool."
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Stefano DiMera
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7:40p, 9/4/19
Best special teams in Baylor history. Led the nation in blocked kicks last year and off to good start this year.
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dallas4bears
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9:26p, 9/4/19
I've been all over the map on CMR. I was excited by the hire, disappointed at the way the first season went, flabbergasted at the NFL flirting, and then gradually getting back on board.

What encourages me the most is the apparent evolution in his thinking about offense. It's not the Briles offense, but it seems good enough to win in the Big 12 and that's saying a lot. I think the D is going to get better, and as others have pointed out, the special teams and discipline are much better already.

With some breaks we can win 10 this year, but it could go wrong and we end up with only 6-6. My guess is 8-4, which is a lot to celebrate given what things were like two years ago.

I don't think he's going to be a long term coach like Drew or Grant, but he's our coach now, and he's been good for Baylor. I am resolved to support him while he's here and be happy for him when he moves on. I think he's going to leave things better than he found them and the next coach we get will be a headliner.
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Krieg
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In reply to PartyBear • 9:37p, 9/4/19
PartyBear said:
Well......even if you don't count at all the disasterous year 1, we are 8-6 over the last 14 games. I expect that to improve a lot this season. But right now we should never go back to be thrilled with about a .500 record. Rhule does not seem like a Steele like hire like he did his first year once play on the field began. But before we start saying upper echelon hire, let's see if the program gets back to upper echelon. Btw I think it will but the jury is still out.


This. We haven't even made it back to our worst year from 2011-2015 yet. Hopefully he can turn this season into double digit wins but until he does he's been a 7-6 coach in his best year.

Make people prove success in the metric(s) that matter. Wins are all that really matters so let's watch him earn them or not and judge his hire after he's taken us to the Promised Land we were in a few years ago or gets fired/leaves early. We won't know until one of those things happens whether or not this was a bad, mediocre, good, or great hire.

All we know is year 1 was awful. Year 2 was ok. Year 3 basically hasn't started but so far so good.
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vanillabryce
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9:54p, 9/4/19
5 Stages of the Rhule hire...

1. Who is this guy? Morris or Gundy please!
2. This guy made some great hires and sounds like he can really get us back on track, I like this dude
3. You can't be serious! Liberty?! UTSA?! Come on!!!
4. Back to bowling - he's got us in the right direction again!
5. TBD
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Krieg
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In reply to vanillabryce • 9:57p, 9/4/19
vanillabryce said:
5 Stages of the Rhule hire...

1. Who is this guy? Morris or Gundy please!
2. This guy made some great hires and sounds like he can really get us back on track, I like this dude
3. You can't be serious! Liberty?! UTSA?! Come on!!!
4. Back to bowling - he's got us in the right direction again!
5. TBD


Lol, about right. I don't think we have to decide he was a good or bad hire until he's either won something huge (conference title or better) or isn't here anymore. This obsession with judging his career at this point doesn't make sense to me.
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boognish_bear
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In reply to vanillabryce • 10:08p, 9/4/19
vanillabryce said:
5 Stages of the Rhule hire...

1. Who is this guy? Morris or Gundy please!
2. This guy made some great hires and sounds like he can really get us back on track, I like this dude
3. You can't be serious! Liberty?! UTSA?! Come on!!!
4. Back to bowling - he's got us in the right direction again!
5. TBD


I think you skipped a step between 3 and 4 when he gets dubbed Little Matty and Jersey. So glad those dumb names are in the rear view mirror
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vanillabryce
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In reply to Krieg • 10:17p, 9/4/19
It's all speculative at this point. After year one, which was so terrible I hesitate to think about it (I'll never hear buckshot again without associating it with deep pain), but we showed progress in year two. I'll make my evaluations on progress made until there is a bigger sample size.
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DocCrowl
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In reply to Aberzombie1892 • 1:53a, 9/5/19
Aberzombie1892 said:
Dia del DougO said:
It would have been interesting to see an alternate timeline in which Lincoln Riley went to another program that wasn't already built up.
To be fair, OU signed 0 top 10 classes from the 2011 class through the 2016 class (according to 247), so it would appear as though his arrival (as OC and subsequently as HC) had a significant positive impact on the quality of OU's roster.


Is it a function of Riley being hired, or Briles getting fired? Briles was getting guys UT and OU were both trying hard for in those years, and when Baylor was up and running there was a lot more parity between B12 schools. There was an upper echelon sure, but when somebody gives recruits a reason to consider more than just those two schools I think everyone in the conference benefits. I hope to see that again soon, I'm already sick of the "OU, UT, then everyone else" talk!
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Sailor Bear
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In reply to boognish_bear • 5:42a, 9/5/19
boognish_bear said:
vanillabryce said:
5 Stages of the Rhule hire...

1. Who is this guy? Morris or Gundy please!
2. This guy made some great hires and sounds like he can really get us back on track, I like this dude
3. You can't be serious! Liberty?! UTSA?! Come on!!!
4. Back to bowling - he's got us in the right direction again!
5. TBD


I think you skipped a step between 3 and 4 when he gets dubbed Little Matty and Jersey. So glad those dumb names are in the rear view mirror


Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.
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SATXBear
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In reply to PartyBear • 10:01a, 9/5/19
PartyBear said:
Well......even if you don't count at all the disasterous year 1, we are 8-6 over the last 14 games. I expect that to improve a lot this season. But right now we should never go back to be thrilled with about a .500 record. Rhule does not seem like a Steele like hire like he did his first year once play on the field began. But before we start saying upper echelon hire, let's see if the program gets back to upper echelon. Btw I think it will but the jury is still out.


Thanks for hijacking the thread BTW.
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In reply to chorne68 • 10:03a, 9/5/19
chorne68 said:
I was very impressed with how he came in and hired good coaches, including the Texas high school coaches. They recruited very well and I was very impressed by the athletes that came to Baylor. He said all the right things and was a great public speaker. Then...year number one started. He was a terrible coach that year. No way with the athletes on the team they should have lost 11 games to the poor competition. I did not think he could turn it around. They made progress in year two so I thought maybe he would be ok. I am now on the CMR team and think he can build a winning program. He has been good for Baylor.


Your mistake is thinking there was talent. There was no talent. The cupboard was empty.
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