Bear8084 said:

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Krieg said:

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Bear8084 said:

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S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.

---

At least respond to what I wrote instead of what you imagined I wrote. Nobody said we were "fullt loaded." Everyone says we were better than our record.

I also never said he tanked the season. S11 implied I said it but I didn't. I said he didn't try to maximize wins in his first year but rather in this year and next year. He seemed to feel implementing his own stuff 100% from the start was better long term than a slower transition that would've won more games in year 1. He was ok with losing more up front, if it happened, to win more later. Now we get to see if it worked.

He didn't try to lose games, he just was ok with it for his vision of the future. There's a massive difference between the two. Let's hope it works.

---

That's pretty much implying he tanked the season because he didn't want to change to the magical spread offense (which we have been running btw) and ignoring how bad off the team really was in '17 and really, in '16 as Milli brought up. No coach is happy with losing or ok with it, especially having the season that they did. CMR even said in interviews it was hard on him, the staff, and the already beleaguered players. As S11 has posted over and over again, the program was not in a good place when CMR took over. They weren't going to win much past 3 if they were to steal a few that season.

---

Just so I make sure we're on the same page, you believe Rhule set out in 2017 to win as many games as he possibly could in 2017?

Krieg said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Krieg said:

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Bear8084 said:

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S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.

---

At least respond to what I wrote instead of what you imagined I wrote. Nobody said we were "fullt loaded." Everyone says we were better than our record.

I also never said he tanked the season. S11 implied I said it but I didn't. I said he didn't try to maximize wins in his first year but rather in this year and next year. He seemed to feel implementing his own stuff 100% from the start was better long term than a slower transition that would've won more games in year 1. He was ok with losing more up front, if it happened, to win more later. Now we get to see if it worked.

He didn't try to lose games, he just was ok with it for his vision of the future. There's a massive difference between the two. Let's hope it works.

---

That's pretty much implying he tanked the season because he didn't want to change to the magical spread offense (which we have been running btw) and ignoring how bad off the team really was in '17 and really, in '16 as Milli brought up. No coach is happy with losing or ok with it, especially having the season that they did. CMR even said in interviews it was hard on him, the staff, and the already beleaguered players. As S11 has posted over and over again, the program was not in a good place when CMR took over. They weren't going to win much past 3 if they were to steal a few that season.

---

Just so I make sure we're on the same page, you believe Rhule set out in 2017 to win as many games as he possibly could in 2017?

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What coach doesn't? Just because he didn't, doesn't mean he wasn't trying his best to do so in a bad situation.

Bear8084 said:

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Krieg said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

Krieg said:

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Bear8084 said:

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S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.

---

At least respond to what I wrote instead of what you imagined I wrote. Nobody said we were "fullt loaded." Everyone says we were better than our record.

I also never said he tanked the season. S11 implied I said it but I didn't. I said he didn't try to maximize wins in his first year but rather in this year and next year. He seemed to feel implementing his own stuff 100% from the start was better long term than a slower transition that would've won more games in year 1. He was ok with losing more up front, if it happened, to win more later. Now we get to see if it worked.

He didn't try to lose games, he just was ok with it for his vision of the future. There's a massive difference between the two. Let's hope it works.

---

That's pretty much implying he tanked the season because he didn't want to change to the magical spread offense (which we have been running btw) and ignoring how bad off the team really was in '17 and really, in '16 as Milli brought up. No coach is happy with losing or ok with it, especially having the season that they did. CMR even said in interviews it was hard on him, the staff, and the already beleaguered players. As S11 has posted over and over again, the program was not in a good place when CMR took over. They weren't going to win much past 3 if they were to steal a few that season.

---

Just so I make sure we're on the same page, you believe Rhule set out in 2017 to win as many games as he possibly could in 2017?

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What coach doesn't? Just because he didn't, doesn't mean he wasn't trying his best to do so in a in a bad situation.

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I have more faith in his coaching ability that you I guess. You're arguing he lost 2-4 games he should've won, according to S11's analysis, while I'm saying he'd have loved to win more but implementing his system to win more in the future (starting this year) was more important to him than winning that season and not implementing his system as fully.

Have a little faith in Rhule's ability to coach, man. Losing 2-4 games because you can't coach the team well is a little insulting.

Krieg said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Krieg said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

Krieg said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.

---

At least respond to what I wrote instead of what you imagined I wrote. Nobody said we were "fullt loaded." Everyone says we were better than our record.

I also never said he tanked the season. S11 implied I said it but I didn't. I said he didn't try to maximize wins in his first year but rather in this year and next year. He seemed to feel implementing his own stuff 100% from the start was better long term than a slower transition that would've won more games in year 1. He was ok with losing more up front, if it happened, to win more later. Now we get to see if it worked.

He didn't try to lose games, he just was ok with it for his vision of the future. There's a massive difference between the two. Let's hope it works.

---

That's pretty much implying he tanked the season because he didn't want to change to the magical spread offense (which we have been running btw) and ignoring how bad off the team really was in '17 and really, in '16 as Milli brought up. No coach is happy with losing or ok with it, especially having the season that they did. CMR even said in interviews it was hard on him, the staff, and the already beleaguered players. As S11 has posted over and over again, the program was not in a good place when CMR took over. They weren't going to win much past 3 if they were to steal a few that season.

---

Just so I make sure we're on the same page, you believe Rhule set out in 2017 to win as many games as he possibly could in 2017?

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What coach doesn't? Just because he didn't, doesn't mean he wasn't trying his best to do so in a in a bad situation.

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I have more faith in his coaching ability that you I guess. You're arguing he lost 2-4 games he should've won, according to S11's analysis, while I'm saying he'd have loved to win more but implementing his system to win more in the future (starting this year) was more important to him than winning that season and not implementing his system as fully.

Have a little faith in Rhule's ability to coach, man. Losing 2-4 games because you can't coach the team well is a little insulting.

---

So your end-all argument is to ignore all the facts that have been presented to you and keep with the "he should've used the spread!" myth, even though that has been debunked over and over again. The '16 team wasn't good, the '17 team was even worse, most of that was not CMR's fault through coaching or recruiting.

Bear8084 said:

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Krieg said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

Krieg said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Krieg said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.

---

At least respond to what I wrote instead of what you imagined I wrote. Nobody said we were "fullt loaded." Everyone says we were better than our record.

I also never said he tanked the season. S11 implied I said it but I didn't. I said he didn't try to maximize wins in his first year but rather in this year and next year. He seemed to feel implementing his own stuff 100% from the start was better long term than a slower transition that would've won more games in year 1. He was ok with losing more up front, if it happened, to win more later. Now we get to see if it worked.

He didn't try to lose games, he just was ok with it for his vision of the future. There's a massive difference between the two. Let's hope it works.

---

That's pretty much implying he tanked the season because he didn't want to change to the magical spread offense (which we have been running btw) and ignoring how bad off the team really was in '17 and really, in '16 as Milli brought up. No coach is happy with losing or ok with it, especially having the season that they did. CMR even said in interviews it was hard on him, the staff, and the already beleaguered players. As S11 has posted over and over again, the program was not in a good place when CMR took over. They weren't going to win much past 3 if they were to steal a few that season.

---

Just so I make sure we're on the same page, you believe Rhule set out in 2017 to win as many games as he possibly could in 2017?

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What coach doesn't? Just because he didn't, doesn't mean he wasn't trying his best to do so in a in a bad situation.

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I have more faith in his coaching ability that you I guess. You're arguing he lost 2-4 games he should've won, according to S11's analysis, while I'm saying he'd have loved to win more but implementing his system to win more in the future (starting this year) was more important to him than winning that season and not implementing his system as fully.

Have a little faith in Rhule's ability to coach, man. Losing 2-4 games because you can't coach the team well is a little insulting.

---

So your end-all argument is to ignore all the facts that have been presented to you and keep with the "he should've used the spread!" myth, even though that has been debunked over and over again. The '16 team wasn't good, the '17 team was even worse, most of that was not CMR's fault through coaching or recruiting.

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What post are you responding to? It's not the one you quoted at all.

BigOleBear said:

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I admit I thought CMR was a complete mistake after the early losses, given so much left over talent from CAB era. Seemed he fiddled around with the QB decision when Baylor Nation wanted Zack Smith to start, coming off the bowl win. Bone head calls and not using returning players didn't help his cause and alienated the fan base.

Now here we are with a rapidly improving and very competitive team again. I think even with 9-10 wins there'll always be a number of people, me included, that prefer scoring in 4-5 plays versus a slow methodical pro style offense. I miss the cocky swagger at mid field before kickoff. But I do see a coach that players respect and have bought into his process and for that I'm excited about the future.

Will Baylor fans continue to mention the incredible CAB days, absolutely. But I plan to move ahead never forgetting that recent span of years beating the cows and wagon drivers. Moving on and cheering the Bears but never forgetting our recent successes and celebrating those players and coaches that put Baylor on the map.

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Great post

Zach Smith didn't look like a D1 quarterback last week and will have a new coach next season if Week 1 was any indication about Tulsa this season. There's no way he starts at Baylor with an offense that can transition a player to the next level.

BigOleBear said:

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I admit I thought CMR was a complete mistake after the early losses, given so much left over talent from CAB era. Seemed he fiddled around with the QB decision when Baylor Nation wanted Zack Smith to start, coming off the bowl win. Bone head calls and not using returning players didn't help his cause and alienated the fan base.

Now here we are with a rapidly improving and very competitive team again. I think even with 9-10 wins there'll always be a number of people, me included, that prefer scoring in 4-5 plays versus a slow methodical pro style offense. I miss the cocky swagger at mid field before kickoff. But I do see a coach that players respect and have bought into his process and for that I'm excited about the future.

Will Baylor fans continue to mention the incredible CAB days, absolutely. But I plan to move ahead never forgetting that recent span of years beating the cows and wagon drivers. Moving on and cheering the Bears but never forgetting our recent successes and celebrating those players and coaches that put Baylor on the map.

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See S11's posts that debunk almost all of that. Also his and other's posts that show the offense is far from "slow and methodical" or even pro style.

Not a hater, but how many seasons with 13 games before the regular season expanded from 10, 11, and now 12.

Good point. But even if you went by percentage of wins, Briles would have more years with a higher percentage of wins than most other coaches in Baylor history.

S11 said:

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Krieg said:

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SATXBear said:

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BigOleBear said:

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I admit I thought CMR was a complete mistake after the early losses, given so much left over talent from CAB era. Seemed he fiddled around with the QB decision when Baylor Nation wanted Zack Smith to start, coming off the bowl win. Bone head calls and not using returning players didn't help his cause and alienated the fan base.

Now here we are with a rapidly improving and very competitive team again. I think even with 9-10 wins there'll always be a number of people, me included, that prefer scoring in 4-5 plays versus a slow methodical pro style offense. I miss the cocky swagger at mid field before kickoff. But I do see a coach that players respect and have bought into his process and for that I'm excited about the future.

Will Baylor fans continue to mention the incredible CAB days, absolutely. But I plan to move ahead never forgetting that recent span of years beating the cows and wagon drivers. Moving on and cheering the Bears but never forgetting our recent successes and celebrating those players and coaches that put Baylor on the map.

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The only fans that were upset about Briles' players not getting PT were the fans who could not move on from the past. Most fans realized Rhule was playing his best team in a difficult situation while planning for the future.

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He was playing the best team for 2019 or 2020 but not the best team for 2016. If you disagree with that you need help because we wemt 1-11 with a team that literally everyone knows was a lot better than that and played a bunch of freshman in front of older players.

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Other than TWill (one cut runner with limited speed behind a shaky line) or maybe Waz (4.8 speed at 5-11 and 180) who did you want to play that didn't? Neither of those two are game changing.

Also the roster shouldn't have gone 1-11. It should have won 3-5 games with the first two as bad losses and stealing maybe 1-2 other than KU which he almost got.

The roster was in a bad spot. Really 3-4 OL you could count on after injury retirements and only 3 after Wilson left and one played the last part of the year at LT on a bad ankle. True freshmen and tight ends aren't people you ever want to play as key OL. The remaining OL simply weren't as good and so here comes playing guys who aren't ready.

This shuffling removes all but one good TE and a converted hoops forward and a true freshman lineman (Saulin who later got hurt) from the TE position which limits how effectively going into bigger sets can help pass pro and scheme help for the ol.

Defensively injury took away the best 2 pass rushers including one of Baylor's most productive ever.

He inherited some good receivers like Mims, Platt (injured 30% into the season), Atkinson, Stricklin, and a decent QB in Smith who's ok but not the world beater the post-Boise hype made him out to be. At tailback he inherited Hasty, a decent but not terribly quick big back in Williams, and that's it. KD, Shock, Russell, Fuller, Desouza, Thrift, S Muir, Pelzel, and Ish weren't walking back through that door.

Defensively I would say Johnston, Young, Roy, Lewis, Roberts, a couple of the corners, and maybe Miller at Safety were either athletically what you want or good enough of a gamer (TY) to overcome it and fit the position.

Remember 2016 to 2017 saw Levels, Blanchard, Stewart, Reid, Reid's backup, Aaivion Edwards, R Davis, KJ Smith (injury), and X Jones (inj) all no longer available. That's a lot to replace and it was going to be felt.

Quote:

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He did the same at Temple. He wasn't trying to win as many games as possible that year but was playing for the future and somehow resetting expectations to the point where he got praised for equaling Grobe's results in his second year. I still don't understand how anyone let's that second part happen, and I'll forever be annoyed that he wasted a year of Baylor football

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This part is bs. You don't intentionally fail to manage expectations. Get real. You don't make your seat intentionally hot and make recruiting that much tougher walking into a scandal.

So just repeating so it doesn't get lost in the long reply- who did you want him to play that he didn't?

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Yes
Failed to mention all the injuries. Three to four wins was tops for that 2017 team.

S11 said:

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Krieg said:

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SATXBear said:

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Krieg said:

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SATXBear said:

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BigOleBear said:

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I admit I thought CMR was a complete mistake after the early losses, given so much left over talent from CAB era. Seemed he fiddled around with the QB decision when Baylor Nation wanted Zack Smith to start, coming off the bowl win. Bone head calls and not using returning players didn't help his cause and alienated the fan base.

Now here we are with a rapidly improving and very competitive team again. I think even with 9-10 wins there'll always be a number of people, me included, that prefer scoring in 4-5 plays versus a slow methodical pro style offense. I miss the cocky swagger at mid field before kickoff. But I do see a coach that players respect and have bought into his process and for that I'm excited about the future.

Will Baylor fans continue to mention the incredible CAB days, absolutely. But I plan to move ahead never forgetting that recent span of years beating the cows and wagon drivers. Moving on and cheering the Bears but never forgetting our recent successes and celebrating those players and coaches that put Baylor on the map.

---

The only fans that were upset about Briles' players not getting PT were the fans who could not move on from the past. Most fans realized Rhule was playing his best team in a difficult situation while planning for the future.

---

He was playing the best team for 2019 or 2020 but not the best team for 2016. If you disagree with that you need help because we wemt 1-11 with a team that literally everyone knows was a lot better than that and played a bunch of freshman in front of older players. He did the same at Temple. He wasn't trying to win as many games as possible that year but was playing for the future and somehow resetting expectations to the point where he got praised for equaling Grobe's results in his second year. I still don't understand how anyone let's that second part happen, and I'll forever be annoyed that he wasted a year of Baylor football but whatever.

He needs to win something that matters to be a "good" hire and that should be our expectation of every coach. If they can't finish in the top 10, win the conference, or some equivalent measure of success then we need to look at why and fix the problem. It could be the coach, facilities, or something else. So far he's won nothing but he's only had 2 seasons so that doesn't really matter yet. The jury should be out until he wins big or doesn't after 4-5 years or fails so badly before then the future result is clear and we cut ties early. As I stated earlier in the thread year 3 just began at give him time.

I don't see the second part happening so let's hope the first part happens! I'm ready for some good years again.

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In 2017 there was very little talent left. Also, a lot of players did not fit his system and there were upper class men not buying in. Rhule had a 3-4 win team based on talent and only won one game in 2017. Rhule's coaching deficits the first year cost Baylor 2-3 wins at most, but now things are in place. As he said, trust the process. Guess you don't.

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So the talent just vaporized when one class out of 4+ graduated? You realize how crazy that sounds, right? Most of that team won the only 7 games they were coached the year before and had won conference titles.

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Evaporated? No.
Graduate and get injured? Much closer to the truth

The talent in 2016 was really centered around a few guys and a bunch of role players arranged in support roles with them.

After injury retirements here are the major 2017 contributors he didn't get to use.

Seth Russell (responsible for all but 1 win)
Shock Linwood (Goodbye ISU Win)
KD Cannon (Goodbye Boise Win)
Ish Zamora (OSU game sticks out here)
LT Dom Desouza (Huge Loss)
C draft pick Kyle Fuller (Giant Loss)
Two backup centers in Muir and Thrift (Depth destroyed)
Ish Wilson after 4 games

KJ Smith after one game (Big Loss of production with versatility to slide inside)
X Jones after three games (Pass rush hit)
Travon Blanchard (Best nickel defender in CAB era. Massive loss)
Pat Levels (Safety/Nickel/Corner who would have started. Huge impact in OkSt Win)
Aiivion Edwards (Speedy Lb)
Raquaan Davis (Decent Lb with experience)
Orion Stewart (Second best safety in CAB era)
Ryan Reid (Better than the guys left over)
Tion Wright (depth)

2016 isn't winning more than 4 games without that core.

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Yep

EatMoreSalmon said:

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Concerned about both lines.

Saw too much penetration by SFA defense.

DL was better, but we all know depth is an issue.

Someone (like S11, not like x) tell me we are better in the future trenches and I might feel more optimistic about championship potential.

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Why are you expecting championships this year? Rhule is just trying to get this program back on track to compete again. We are just now starting to get some depth. Takes a few years to replenish what was lost in 2016 and 2017.

Bear8084 said:

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S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.

---

Exactly. I am just befuddled by posters like Krieg who post the way they do. It shows a lack of understanding of what it takes to succeed in college football. I guess some fans just see wins and losses and don't realize what goes on behind the scenes. Very strange.

Stan Mikita said:

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I feel like we are dancing around the obvious here. Art Briles was fired in May 2016. We lost a recruiting class. Jarrett Stidham transferred. The remaining players were lumped into media reports of alleged heinous crimes with no details or clarification of offenders. We saw some Friday afternoon media dumps from Baylor administrators once we got to 6-0 and Patty Crawford abruptly quit as the Baylor Title IX chief. The remaining Baylor players likely thought the environment was incredibly toxic. Some players quit. No coach at Baylor was actively recruiting anybody for about 7 months in 2016, and all the 2015-2016 work for the 2017 class disappeared. Did anybody really think that an entire lame duck coaching staff would put any effort into recruiting anybody to a program that would not have the same coaches or likely the same system the next year? There were no blue chip recruits ready to play in 2017, but they were played immediately because we didn't have a choice.

2016 recruiting class dump + last minute 2017 recruiting class scramble + toxic environment + transfers/retirements + new system = 1-11 season with home losses to Liberty and UTSA. You can inject one of these factors into a program and they might get by with a decent record. When you put it all together at once you get a program that shouldn't be playing at the FBS level for a year (Liberty went 5-5 against FCS teams that year......and they beat us at home).

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Finally common sense. Thank you!

Krieg said:

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He started Anu Solomon over Zach Smith, a QB that nearly beat OU a few games later while running a hurry up, no huddle spread attack for one game.

People think these guys didn't have talent because they won a single game that year but that's not the reality. Their talent might not have fit what Rhule wanted to run but they had talent to run something successfully and win a lot more than 1 game, as you admitted as well.

In the end we'll never know how good they were or weren't because they were recruited to do one thing and then asked to do something else. It is what it is.

If Briles had stayed we'd be saying they had a ton of talent as they'd have played in a system they were chosen to run. Are we pretending he didn't know how to spot talent now? That's absurd.

Clearly we had worse talent than in 2015, but as you said 3-5 wins was reasonable. I'd argue sightly more but regardless it was a massive coaching failure in year 1. Why that gets pushback is astounding to me. We lost to an FCS team for the only time in our history and followed that up by losing to a 2nd team that had never beaten a P5 school. There's no other way to look at that season than it being a coaching failure. Rhule can have a failure in that season and not be a failure overall. It's ok to admit as much.

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You had to bring up Briles. Sorry dude, Briles would of been no better off with all the attrition and injuries. Just was not going to happen. What's the difference between one win and four wins? You seem pretty hung up on 2017.

Krieg said:

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Dman said:

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Stan Mikita said:

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I feel like we are dancing around the obvious here. Art Briles was fired in May 2016. We lost a recruiting class. Jarrett Stidham transferred. The remaining players were lumped into media reports of alleged heinous crimes with no details or clarification of offenders. We saw some Friday afternoon media dumps from Baylor administrators once we got to 6-0 and Patty Crawford abruptly quit as the Baylor Title IX chief. The remaining Baylor players likely thought the environment was incredibly toxic. Some players quit. No coach at Baylor was actively recruiting anybody for about 7 months in 2016, and all the 2015-2016 work for the 2017 class disappeared. Did anybody really think that an entire lame duck coaching staff would put any effort into recruiting anybody to a program that would not have the same coaches or likely the same system the next year? There were no blue chip recruits ready to play in 2017, but they were played immediately because we didn't have a choice.

2016 recruiting class dump + last minute 2017 recruiting class scramble + toxic environment + transfers/retirements + new system = 1-11 season with home losses to Liberty and UTSA. You can inject one of these factors into a program and they might get by with a decent record. When you put it all together at once you get a program that shouldn't be playing at the FBS level for a year (Liberty went 5-5 against FCS teams that year......and they beat us at home).

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Rhule himself admits, despite all that, they were better than 1-11. No one is saying he should have been a 6 or 7 win team...but not 1-11

Really not sure why we are debating this. He's improved. He's moved on. I'm much more interested in this year.

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Because anything but pure praise offends the flock I guess. I don't understand the resistance to the obvious truth that 1-11 is a failure.

Also, to those saying 8 wins is a good season in the medium to long term uh, no thanks. We've had better. Rhule and any future coaches should be expected to do better as well. When we start expecting that is up for debate, but 8 wins isn't a good benchmark for overall success. 10? Yes. 8? That better be a down year.

Expect excellence or you'll never get it.

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Have you ever participated in athletics? You just don't get it. You just don't snap your fingers and start winning. You really have a pretty shallow fund of knowledge when it comes to college football.

S11 said:

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Krieg said:

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He started Anu Solomon over Zach Smith, a QB that nearly beat OU a few games later while running a hurry up, no huddle spread attack for one game.

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1- Anu got concussed against UTSA and had to retire. Unfair to judge him on that game given the impact of that and he got UofArizona to a Fiesta bowl. If he won the job in practice he won the job.

2- OU was the worst defense in the Big 12 that year. Worst Yards per Drive against common foes. If Smith was so unstoppable how come we didn't see it again? Probably says more about OU than ZS.

3- They used spread tactics in other games as well.

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People think these guys didn't have talent because they won a single game that year but that's not the reality. Their talent might not have fit what Rhule wanted to run but they had talent to run something successfully and win a lot more than 1 game, as you admitted as well.

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4- Two more games maybe stretching for an upset maybe two isn't a lot more. Certainly not a dramatic amount of talent.

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In the end we'll never know how good they were or weren't because they were recruited to do one thing and then asked to do something else. It is what it is.

If Briles had stayed we'd be saying they had a ton of talent as they'd have played in a system they were chosen to run. Are we pretending he didn't know how to spot talent now? That's absurd.

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5- If CAB had stayed the roster is likely MUCH better due to recruiting classes and not losing Autry. Huge difference there.

6- Give Briles the 2017 guys Rhule had after departures and retirements. What you'd see is the production would have been like 2009's terrible output.

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Clearly we had worse talent than in 2015,

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7- 2015 was arguably the top roster in the entire CAB tenure. You must mean 2016 which was a steep dropoff from 15

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but as you said 3-5 wins was reasonable. I'd argue sightly more but regardless it was a massive coaching failure in year 1. Why that gets pushback is astounding to me.

We lost to an FCS team for the only time in our history and followed that up by losing to a 2nd team that had never beaten a P5 school. There's no other way to look at that season than it being a coaching failure. Rhule can have a failure in that season and not be a failure overall. It's ok to admit as much.

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8- What other games are reasonable with basically no OL and losing almost every major 2016 contributor? In hindsight do you think that group is a lock for a bowl with different coaching? I'm calling bs on that.

9- Liberty And UTSA werent reasonable losses. First one was backup secondary repeatedly screwing up (9 players in the back five positions were out) and UTSA was a solid but not good G5 that we should have beaten and probably beat if they correctly diagnose Anu's injury. Remember they had a few really good players on D including a first round DE that wreak havoc on a bad OL.

10- There's no pushback on saying we should have won the first two.

11- The pushback is on thinking that shell of a roster was going bowling or had any expectation to. Big 12 + Duke wasn't going to give many assured wins.

12- Look at the roster as if you are an opponent scheming against them:

- Bad OL outside of RG and RT.
- Average DL but not great in pass rush
- Two good LBs
- Best CBs were a recently converted WR and a true freshman
- Safeties outside of Chris Miller were very slow and all but Hall weren't big.
- No capable coverage options at nickel that also are run capable. Down from two in 2016
- Receivers are good but lost Platt, Holmes, Sneed throughout the year.
- QB was a true freshman Brewer, true Soph pocket passer who was up and down in 2016, and Solomon.
- TE was basically Fuerbacher and a hoops player barely learning the position.

It's much worse than you want to admit. CAB's Offense relies on the run. 280 pound converted TEs and true freshmen that weren't ready wouldn't support that. Th only year remotely in range of this roster was 2009 after injuries piled up. Outside of one game that offense got slapped around.

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S11
Krieg just does not want to analyze the in-depth facts. Krieg is just repeating talking points without data to back it up. Not sure why he is fighting a loosing battle.

SATXBear said:

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Krieg said:

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He started Anu Solomon over Zach Smith, a QB that nearly beat OU a few games later while running a hurry up, no huddle spread attack for one game.

People think these guys didn't have talent because they won a single game that year but that's not the reality. Their talent might not have fit what Rhule wanted to run but they had talent to run something successfully and win a lot more than 1 game, as you admitted as well.

In the end we'll never know how good they were or weren't because they were recruited to do one thing and then asked to do something else. It is what it is.

If Briles had stayed we'd be saying they had a ton of talent as they'd have played in a system they were chosen to run. Are we pretending he didn't know how to spot talent now? That's absurd.

Clearly we had worse talent than in 2015, but as you said 3-5 wins was reasonable. I'd argue sightly more but regardless it was a massive coaching failure in year 1. Why that gets pushback is astounding to me. We lost to an FCS team for the only time in our history and followed that up by losing to a 2nd team that had never beaten a P5 school. There's no other way to look at that season than it being a coaching failure. Rhule can have a failure in that season and not be a failure overall. It's ok to admit as much.

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You had to bring up Briles. Sorry dude, Briles would of been no better off with all the attrition and injuries. Just was not going to happen. What's the difference between one win and four wins? You seem pretty hung up on 2017.

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There would have been no attrition if Briles were allowed to continue. We were poised for even better success.

Krieg said:

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You're putting a lot of words in my mouth there and I'm going to ignore most of it as I don't care enough. I'll add, though, that we had a ridiculous amount of practice injuries that year. I hold the staff responsible for that increase. We can't know why it happened but it happened on their watch so it's on them. Consequently arguing that things like a bunch of backups in the secondary in the FIRST GAME is an excuse for failure doesn't fly with me. We seem to have fixed whatever was going on there but that first year wasn't normal.

I agree the talent would've been a lot better had Briles not been fired and that's not Rhule's fault. I do think Briles is a better coach and that likely wins us an extra game with the same talent but we'll never know because they can't have the same talent.

We seem to agree Rhule failed in year one and we both hope he succeeds from here. I'm not really sure why this argument is happening nor on what grounds it's happening. We might not agree on every single detail but who cares? Let's have an actual good year this year. Not that we can affect it in any meaningful way, but we can pretend we matter I guess.

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You are backtracking. Just talking points.

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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SATXBear said:

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Krieg said:

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He started Anu Solomon over Zach Smith, a QB that nearly beat OU a few games later while running a hurry up, no huddle spread attack for one game.

People think these guys didn't have talent because they won a single game that year but that's not the reality. Their talent might not have fit what Rhule wanted to run but they had talent to run something successfully and win a lot more than 1 game, as you admitted as well.

In the end we'll never know how good they were or weren't because they were recruited to do one thing and then asked to do something else. It is what it is.

If Briles had stayed we'd be saying they had a ton of talent as they'd have played in a system they were chosen to run. Are we pretending he didn't know how to spot talent now? That's absurd.

Clearly we had worse talent than in 2015, but as you said 3-5 wins was reasonable. I'd argue sightly more but regardless it was a massive coaching failure in year 1. Why that gets pushback is astounding to me. We lost to an FCS team for the only time in our history and followed that up by losing to a 2nd team that had never beaten a P5 school. There's no other way to look at that season than it being a coaching failure. Rhule can have a failure in that season and not be a failure overall. It's ok to admit as much.

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You had to bring up Briles. Sorry dude, Briles would of been no better off with all the attrition and injuries. Just was not going to happen. What's the difference between one win and four wins? You seem pretty hung up on 2017.

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There would have been no attrition if Briles were allowed to continue. We were poised for even better success.

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That is not the debate. Quit deflecting. If Briles had been put in the same situation as Rhule in December 2016 the results would have been the same.

It's pointless to speculate about what might have happened had Briles remained. He didn't and we have no way of knowing what would have happened. It's idle speculation.

Far more important to focus on what the team is doing now: we need wins against UTSA, Rice, Iowa State, etc.

SATXBear said:

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Krieg said:

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Dman said:

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Stan Mikita said:

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I feel like we are dancing around the obvious here. Art Briles was fired in May 2016. We lost a recruiting class. Jarrett Stidham transferred. The remaining players were lumped into media reports of alleged heinous crimes with no details or clarification of offenders. We saw some Friday afternoon media dumps from Baylor administrators once we got to 6-0 and Patty Crawford abruptly quit as the Baylor Title IX chief. The remaining Baylor players likely thought the environment was incredibly toxic. Some players quit. No coach at Baylor was actively recruiting anybody for about 7 months in 2016, and all the 2015-2016 work for the 2017 class disappeared. Did anybody really think that an entire lame duck coaching staff would put any effort into recruiting anybody to a program that would not have the same coaches or likely the same system the next year? There were no blue chip recruits ready to play in 2017, but they were played immediately because we didn't have a choice.

2016 recruiting class dump + last minute 2017 recruiting class scramble + toxic environment + transfers/retirements + new system = 1-11 season with home losses to Liberty and UTSA. You can inject one of these factors into a program and they might get by with a decent record. When you put it all together at once you get a program that shouldn't be playing at the FBS level for a year (Liberty went 5-5 against FCS teams that year......and they beat us at home).

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Rhule himself admits, despite all that, they were better than 1-11. No one is saying he should have been a 6 or 7 win team...but not 1-11

Really not sure why we are debating this. He's improved. He's moved on. I'm much more interested in this year.

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Because anything but pure praise offends the flock I guess. I don't understand the resistance to the obvious truth that 1-11 is a failure.

Also, to those saying 8 wins is a good season in the medium to long term uh, no thanks. We've had better. Rhule and any future coaches should be expected to do better as well. When we start expecting that is up for debate, but 8 wins isn't a good benchmark for overall success. 10? Yes. 8? That better be a down year.

Expect excellence or you'll never get it.

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Have you ever participated in athletics? You just don't get it. You just don't snap your fingers and start winning. You really have a pretty shallow fund of knowledge when it comes to college football.

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It's impossible to have a conversation if you can't read. There are posters on here saying that an 8ish win average is all we can expect, at best, due to our history. That's what I was responding to with that statement, which is obvious if you read the words. I even said "medium to long term," which is obviously not the first 3 years. It's debatable when the expectations should rise but that's not the debate on this thread thus far.

SATXBear said:

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S11 said:

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Krieg said:

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He started Anu Solomon over Zach Smith, a QB that nearly beat OU a few games later while running a hurry up, no huddle spread attack for one game.

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1- Anu got concussed against UTSA and had to retire. Unfair to judge him on that game given the impact of that and he got UofArizona to a Fiesta bowl. If he won the job in practice he won the job.

2- OU was the worst defense in the Big 12 that year. Worst Yards per Drive against common foes. If Smith was so unstoppable how come we didn't see it again? Probably says more about OU than ZS.

3- They used spread tactics in other games as well.

Quote:

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People think these guys didn't have talent because they won a single game that year but that's not the reality. Their talent might not have fit what Rhule wanted to run but they had talent to run something successfully and win a lot more than 1 game, as you admitted as well.

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4- Two more games maybe stretching for an upset maybe two isn't a lot more. Certainly not a dramatic amount of talent.

Quote:

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In the end we'll never know how good they were or weren't because they were recruited to do one thing and then asked to do something else. It is what it is.

If Briles had stayed we'd be saying they had a ton of talent as they'd have played in a system they were chosen to run. Are we pretending he didn't know how to spot talent now? That's absurd.

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5- If CAB had stayed the roster is likely MUCH better due to recruiting classes and not losing Autry. Huge difference there.

6- Give Briles the 2017 guys Rhule had after departures and retirements. What you'd see is the production would have been like 2009's terrible output.

Quote:

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Clearly we had worse talent than in 2015,

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7- 2015 was arguably the top roster in the entire CAB tenure. You must mean 2016 which was a steep dropoff from 15

Quote:

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but as you said 3-5 wins was reasonable. I'd argue sightly more but regardless it was a massive coaching failure in year 1. Why that gets pushback is astounding to me.

We lost to an FCS team for the only time in our history and followed that up by losing to a 2nd team that had never beaten a P5 school. There's no other way to look at that season than it being a coaching failure. Rhule can have a failure in that season and not be a failure overall. It's ok to admit as much.

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8- What other games are reasonable with basically no OL and losing almost every major 2016 contributor? In hindsight do you think that group is a lock for a bowl with different coaching? I'm calling bs on that.

9- Liberty And UTSA werent reasonable losses. First one was backup secondary repeatedly screwing up (9 players in the back five positions were out) and UTSA was a solid but not good G5 that we should have beaten and probably beat if they correctly diagnose Anu's injury. Remember they had a few really good players on D including a first round DE that wreak havoc on a bad OL.

10- There's no pushback on saying we should have won the first two.

11- The pushback is on thinking that shell of a roster was going bowling or had any expectation to. Big 12 + Duke wasn't going to give many assured wins.

12- Look at the roster as if you are an opponent scheming against them:

- Bad OL outside of RG and RT.
- Average DL but not great in pass rush
- Two good LBs
- Best CBs were a recently converted WR and a true freshman
- Safeties outside of Chris Miller were very slow and all but Hall weren't big.
- No capable coverage options at nickel that also are run capable. Down from two in 2016
- Receivers are good but lost Platt, Holmes, Sneed throughout the year.
- QB was a true freshman Brewer, true Soph pocket passer who was up and down in 2016, and Solomon.
- TE was basically Fuerbacher and a hoops player barely learning the position.

It's much worse than you want to admit. CAB's Offense relies on the run. 280 pound converted TEs and true freshmen that weren't ready wouldn't support that. Th only year remotely in range of this roster was 2009 after injuries piled up. Outside of one game that offense got slapped around.

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S11
Krieg just does not want to analyze the in-depth facts. Krieg is just repeating talking points without data to back it up. Not sure why he is fighting a loosing battle.

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I thought you just couldn't read but spelling is weak as well.

Nice in depth facts there, too.

S11 said:

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Krieg said:

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You're putting a lot of words in my mouth there and I'm going to ignore most of it as I don't care enough.

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1- Point Out where Because I don't think I did.

Quote:

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I'll add, though, that we had a ridiculous amount of practice injuries that year. I hold the staff responsible for that increase. We can't know why it happened but it happened on their watch so it's on them.

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2- Some can be argued (Thrift) but it's a big stretch to argue DeSouza, Pelzel, Muir, KJ, Platt, X Jones, and several others like Young and Holmes.

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Consequently arguing that things like a bunch of backups in the secondary in the FIRST GAME is an excuse for failure doesn't fly with me. We seem to have fixed whatever was going on there but that first year wasn't normal.

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3- For somebody talking about people allegedly putting words in your mouth you just made a ham fisted attempt at doing that to me.

My statement on the first two games was "Liberty And UTSA werent reasonable losses" and "should have won 3-5 games with the first two as bad losses and stealing maybe 1-2 other than KU" clearly showing we should have won them.

Explaining how we lost isn't an excuse.

Quote:

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I agree the talent would've been a lot better had Briles not been fired and that's not Rhule's fault. I do think Briles is a better coach and that likely wins us an extra game with the same talent but we'll never know because they can't have the same talent

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4- Maybe he wins one more. Rhule came awfully close to winning 2 more in league play Vs WV and OU.


5- You mentioned Zach Smith as the substitution that should have been made. At most it turns the UTSA game if done early enough. Smith wasn't all that consistent in 2016, couldn't move to avoid inevitable pressure that the shell of an OL would allow, and Solomon had been pretty good on timing, accuracy, and scheme fit in game one. The only pick was on the WR who didn't run his route right.

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1. Sorry, it was 8084 that claimed I said something I didn't and I didn't go back to check after catching up on the thread and thought it was in your post. I'm on my phone and it's two screens ago. My bad.

2. There were a ton of practice injuries on a staff coming in preaching toughness and Oklahoma drills. Maybe they're not connected but that's an odd coincidence otherwise. I still say we can't know.

3. Sorry if I took that as an excuse and shouldn't have but that's how I read it the first time.

4. No talent nearly beat the best team we played? This is where that argument falls apart, but I don't think it's an argument you're making although others do often. We agree we were much better than a 1-win team in terms of talent but worse than we'd been previously. How many wins that could've been is a mystery and doesn't matter. It's ok to say that and not hate Rhule. Also, in a previous post I referenced 2015 in regards to when we had better talent. Since we only appeared to have coaching part of the year in 2016 and the most distractions possibly in the history of football I ignore that year's results. We really don't have a clue what that team could've been and the fact we won a bowl despite the 7-month train wreck they were put through still impresses me. Nobody, not the team, coaches, or fans deserved that season.

I continue to be amazed that many can't accept both 2017 bring a failure and Rhule not being one overall simultaneously. I criticized the prior staff at times as well but still supported them. Nobody is perfect. I'll forever have a bad taste in my mouth about the Fiesta and Cotton as those were largely coaching failures imo, for an example.

In the end, and back to being completely on topic, I hope Rhule goes down as a great hire. Ideally the best we've ever made. It's year 3 and we've played nobody so far this season so I don't think declaring him a success or failure overall makes a bit of sense. That was apparently offensive to some but they're idiots.

You're only here to troll.

SATXBear said:

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Krieg said:

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You're only here to troll.

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No
You and several like you troll the fine sic em site with your anti Baylor rhetoric. Sometimes it is necessary to shut down the nonsense talking points with facts. I was glad S11 used his knowledge of football facts to discredit you. I don't think you would last a second on the premium side with your nonsense.

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I still can't figure out where S11 and I actually disagree.

trey3216 said:

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Krieg said:

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Dman said:

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Stan Mikita said:

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I feel like we are dancing around the obvious here. Art Briles was fired in May 2016. We lost a recruiting class. Jarrett Stidham transferred. The remaining players were lumped into media reports of alleged heinous crimes with no details or clarification of offenders. We saw some Friday afternoon media dumps from Baylor administrators once we got to 6-0 and Patty Crawford abruptly quit as the Baylor Title IX chief. The remaining Baylor players likely thought the environment was incredibly toxic. Some players quit. No coach at Baylor was actively recruiting anybody for about 7 months in 2016, and all the 2015-2016 work for the 2017 class disappeared. Did anybody really think that an entire lame duck coaching staff would put any effort into recruiting anybody to a program that would not have the same coaches or likely the same system the next year? There were no blue chip recruits ready to play in 2017, but they were played immediately because we didn't have a choice.

2016 recruiting class dump + last minute 2017 recruiting class scramble + toxic environment + transfers/retirements + new system = 1-11 season with home losses to Liberty and UTSA. You can inject one of these factors into a program and they might get by with a decent record. When you put it all together at once you get a program that shouldn't be playing at the FBS level for a year (Liberty went 5-5 against FCS teams that year......and they beat us at home).

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Rhule himself admits, despite all that, they were better than 1-11. No one is saying he should have been a 6 or 7 win team...but not 1-11

Really not sure why we are debating this. He's improved. He's moved on. I'm much more interested in this year.

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Because anything but pure praise offends the flock I guess. I don't understand the resistance to the obvious truth that 1-11 is a failure.

Also, to those saying 8 wins is a good season in the medium to long term uh, no thanks. We've had better. Rhule and any future coaches should be expected to do better as well. When we start expecting that is up for debate, but 8 wins isn't a good benchmark for overall success. 10? Yes. 8? That better be a down year.

Expect excellence or you'll never get it.

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and anything but pure "Ferrari to Fiat" gets people like you bent

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Thanks for adding to the discussion. Your response really made sense in context of what you quoted.

I think we have a bunch of battered football fans. Get them a shelter!