Brownstones, Park, Pocket Neighborhood at Floyd Casey site

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Edmond Bear
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7:09a, 4/20/22

Developer Turner-Behringer (donated recruiting lounge at McLane), is proposing a 30 acre park with splashpad and trails surrounded by small lot development, a pocket neighborhood, and brownstones at the old Floyd Casey site. The park development will be the biggest parks investment in Waco's history,

https://wacotrib.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/proposed-floyd-casey-development-would-bring-brownstones-retail-big-parks-investment/article_0802a512-c03a-11ec-bd2b-b75aa0ce4260.html?

I'm starting to see more pocket neighborhoods in different cities. These are usually 20-30 houses with very small lots. Each house faces a green space with common space (not a street) and parking is in a common lot behind the houses.

Also, proposing retail along Valley Mills and Dutton.

Seems like a cool setup for that area.

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Redbrickbear
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In reply to Edmond Bear • 10:12a, 4/20/22
Edmond Bear said:

Developer Turner-Behringer (donated recruiting lounge at McLane), is proposing a 30 acre park with splashpad and trails surrounded by small lot development, a pocket neighborhood, and brownstones at the old Floyd Casey site. The park development will be the biggest parks investment in Waco's history,

https://wacotrib.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/proposed-floyd-casey-development-would-bring-brownstones-retail-big-parks-investment/article_0802a512-c03a-11ec-bd2b-b75aa0ce4260.html?

I'm starting to see more pocket neighborhoods in different cities. These are usually 20-30 houses with very small lots. Each house faces a green space with common space (not a street) and parking is in a common lot behind the houses.

Also, proposing retail along Valley Mills and Dutton.

Seems like a cool setup for that area.

Definitely a big space in the center of the city that needs to be redeveloped.

And I like the idea of keeping some green space.

Not sure about the small lots idea.
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PartyBear
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10:33a, 4/20/22
A neighborhood with a parking lot? You dont get to park at your actual house? I'm confused if that is what you meant or not.
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Yogi
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11:07a, 4/20/22
It needs new utilities, sewer, etc., though I guess they could always put in community toilets with troughs.

I always wanted then to save all or part of the playing field and develop around that. That playing field would then be a park - with a plaque in the south end zone, of course, to mark where the 2011 Heisman was won.

I call the development, "The Gridiron".

"Smarter than the Average Bear."
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to Yogi • 11:11a, 4/20/22
Yogi said:
It needs new utilities, sewer, etc., though I guess they could always put in community toilets with troughs.

I always wanted then to save all or part of the playing field and develop around that. That playing field would then be a park - with a plaque in the south end zone, of course, to mark where the 2011 Heisman was won.

I call the development, "The Gridiron".

That would have been a cool concept.
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whitetrash
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In reply to Yogi • 11:14a, 4/20/22
Yogi said:
It needs new utilities, sewer, etc., though I guess they could always put in community toilets with troughs.

I always wanted then to save all or part of the playing field and develop around that. That playing field would then be a park - with a plaque in the south end zone, of course, to mark where the 2011 Heisman was won.

I call the development, "The Gridiron".

That's what they did in Baltimore at the site of old Memorial Stadium: they built apartments/assisted living facilities around the outside of the tract, and left the space that had been the playing field as a park.
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Edmond Bear
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In reply to PartyBear • 1:06p, 4/20/22
PartyBear said:
A neighborhood with a parking lot? You dont get to park at your actual house? I'm confused if that is what you meant or not.

It can look something like this





We're watching a new pocket neighborhood go up near downtown Edmond where I live. The houses are pretty small and the lots are extremely small. But, it's supposed to promote people knowing each other.

Usually the neighborhood takes care of all of the property and you don't have to do your own lawn, etc.

I'm guessing you'll see alot of retirees that look out for each other.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to Edmond Bear • 2:52p, 4/20/22
Edmond Bear said:
PartyBear said:
A neighborhood with a parking lot? You dont get to park at your actual house? I'm confused if that is what you meant or not.

It can look something like this





We're watching a new pocket neighborhood go up near downtown Edmond where I live. The houses are pretty small and the lots are extremely small. But, it's supposed to promote people knowing each other.

Usually the neighborhood takes care of all of the property and you don't have to do your own lawn, etc.

I'm guessing you'll see alot of retirees that look out for each other.
Tightly packed, close together, walkable urbanism is great.....for high trust/low crime societies.

Japan and the Netherlands have proven that.
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CorsicanaBear
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4:00p, 4/20/22
Waco, Tx near Beverly Hills, Tx is not the Netherlands or Japan.

This type of living arrangement has no appeal to me, but I would certainly like to see them succeed. I think it is not likely to end well.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to CorsicanaBear • 5:23p, 4/20/22
CorsicanaBear said:
Waco, Tx near Beverly Hills, Tx is not the Netherlands or Japan.

This type of living arrangement has no appeal to me, but I would certainly like to see them succeed. I think it is not likely to end well.


That's my exact point.

Urbanism like that would be nice. But the USA can't do it because we are not a high trust/low crime society.
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CorsicanaBear
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6:04p, 4/20/22
There was a time, during my lifetime, when most of the US (at least by area) was a high trust/low crime society.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to CorsicanaBear • 6:52p, 4/20/22
CorsicanaBear said:
There was a time, during my lifetime, when most of the US (at least by area) was a high trust/low crime society.


Must have been nice.
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BUbearinARK
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7:34p, 4/20/22
Hopefully the area that the tarp occupied will be designated green space
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cowboycwr
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2:48p, 4/21/22
Isn't this just a change to what was proposed several years back? I feel like I remember a plan for a neighborhood, with park, trails, etc. that was floated for this site... just with normal houses not this pocket neighborhood.
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CorsicanaBear
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2:51p, 4/21/22
Quote:
Must have been nice.
It was. And not so long ago, up to the early 70's.
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BaylorHistory
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In reply to CorsicanaBear • 4:31p, 4/21/22
CorsicanaBear said:
Quote:
Must have been nice.
It was. And not so long ago, up to the early 70's.
Total Crime per 100,000 people in the USA

1973 - 4,154.4
2019 - 2,489.3

2019 was the lowest since 1965




Violent Crime per 100,000 people in the USA


1973 - 417.4
2019 - 379.4


2019 was the lowest since 1970


Now that doesn't include 2020-2022 as the data isn't available, so maybe everything has gone to hell since then. Of course, in 1975 you didn't have competing media ventures constantly telling you how terrible everything is and warping perception.





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Edmond Bear
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In reply to BaylorHistory • 6:03p, 4/21/22
BaylorHistory said:
CorsicanaBear said:
Quote:
Must have been nice.
It was. And not so long ago, up to the early 70's.
Total Crime per 100,000 people in the USA

1973 - 4,154.4
2019 - 2,489.3

2019 was the lowest since 1965




Violent Crime per 100,000 people in the USA


1973 - 417.4
2019 - 379.4


2019 was the lowest since 1970


Now that doesn't include 2020-2022 as the data isn't available, so maybe everything has gone to hell since then. Of course, in 1975 you didn't have competing media ventures constantly telling you how terrible everything is and warping perception.







We don't need your facts in here.

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BaylorGuy314
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In reply to BaylorHistory • 10:03p, 4/21/22
BaylorHistory said:
CorsicanaBear said:
Quote:
Must have been nice.
It was. And not so long ago, up to the early 70's.
Total Crime per 100,000 people in the USA

1973 - 4,154.4
2019 - 2,489.3

2019 was the lowest since 1965




Violent Crime per 100,000 people in the USA


1973 - 417.4
2019 - 379.4


2019 was the lowest since 1970


Now that doesn't include 2020-2022 as the data isn't available, so maybe everything has gone to hell since then. Of course, in 1975 you didn't have competing media ventures constantly telling you how terrible everything is and warping perception.





I was just about to post something similar but you did a great job - no need.

Our society is told things are worse than ever. The truth is, it's safer out there than it's been in 50 years. Your kid is less likely to get abducted today than they were 30 years ago but people won't even let their kids ride down the block anymore. Sad.
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CorsicanaBear
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9:02a, 4/22/22
Mea culpa. Things had gone to crap by 1969. It was not so obvious from Burlington, NC where my brother, sister and I were pretty much free range kids, most cars were not locked, and if there was a pickup truck in the Western Alamance HS parking lot it had a gun on a rack in the window.
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BaylorHistory
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In reply to Edmond Bear • 4:18p, 4/22/22
Edmond Bear said:



it's supposed to promote people knowing each other.
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Yogi
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11:56a, 4/25/22
The issue isn't even crime stats. It's demand.

How much demand would there be in Waco, Texas for something like this where you don't have an uber-crowded city center where there is high demand to live?

I've seen what the costs of homes on a half-acre are being appraised for right now.

I can't imaging someone would want to pay the same or more to share green space with their neighbors - at least in the Waco market.

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trey3216
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In reply to Yogi • 11:59a, 4/25/22
Yogi said:
The issue isn't even crime stats. It's demand.

How much demand would there be in Waco, Texas for something like this where you don't have an uber-crowded city center where there is high demand to live?

I've seen what the costs of homes on a half-acre are being appraised for right now.

I can't imaging someone would want to pay the same or more to share green space with their neighbors - at least in the Waco market.

The counter to your argument is supply. There is no supply. Any new supply will likely be gobbled up in short order, even if it is a hair different than normal situation.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to trey3216 • 11:14a, 4/26/22
trey3216 said:
Yogi said:
The issue isn't even crime stats. It's demand.

How much demand would there be in Waco, Texas for something like this where you don't have an uber-crowded city center where there is high demand to live?

I've seen what the costs of homes on a half-acre are being appraised for right now.

I can't imaging someone would want to pay the same or more to share green space with their neighbors - at least in the Waco market.

The counter to your argument is supply. There is no supply. Any new supply will likely be gobbled up in short order, even if it is a hair different than normal situation.
Yep, the Texas triangle is one of those unique areas of the USA where you can just about build anything right now and be reasonably certain that it will sell...just because the demand is so extremely high.
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BaylorGuy314
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In reply to Yogi • 4:02p, 4/26/22
Yogi said:
The issue isn't even crime stats. It's demand.

How much demand would there be in Waco, Texas for something like this where you don't have an uber-crowded city center where there is high demand to live?

I've seen what the costs of homes on a half-acre are being appraised for right now.

I can't imaging someone would want to pay the same or more to share green space with their neighbors - at least in the Waco market.


I actually think there is a lot of demand for a product like this with the caveat that it has to be less expensive than traditional housing - not more expensive.

The truth is that many millennials and most of Gen Z cannot afford to buy a $400K home when they make $50K/year or $100K/year (married). Between PITI on the house + car payment(s) + student loan payment + anything else they may have, it's just too rich. And most aren't going to have the required reserves or downpayment to do it in a sound way.

With housing outpacing inflation and wages, owning a home is only getting more out of reach for these individuals with time - not less.

If we can find a way to get people into homes <$300K while not building junk, I'm all for it. In theory, this type of development should use less infrastructure per home due to less streets, drainage, etc.

That said, I'm going to assume the developer will look to maximize return and will sell these at whatever they can realistically get for them which will not accomplish my first sentence.
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redfish961
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5:14p, 4/26/22
There should be an honorary tailgate zone in a courtyard complete with BBQ grills and keg receptors.
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Yogi
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9:48a, 4/27/22
Well, I got to see a similar development in Temple yesterday. Granted, Temple's demographics are better than Waco's. I agree that it comes down to what somebody is willing to pay in this market.

And I think those junk houses are going to take a significant number of potential buyers out of the market.

But what do I know about the market? I pass these mattress stores all the time and ask myself, "Who is it that is buying all these mattresses, especially in Waco where the average mattress has a 16 year life span?"

Yet they are still in business.

Just like all the RV dealers between Hewitt and Lorena...
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FrankFallonCalling
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In reply to redfish961 • 10:25a, 4/27/22
redfish961 said:
There should be an honorary tailgate zone in a courtyard complete with BBQ grills and keg receptors.
You know better than anyone that the power and cable is already installed.
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T-REX
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In reply to BaylorGuy314 • 2:06p, 4/28/22
BaylorGuy314 said:
Yogi said:
The issue isn't even crime stats. It's demand.

How much demand would there be in Waco, Texas for something like this where you don't have an uber-crowded city center where there is high demand to live?

I've seen what the costs of homes on a half-acre are being appraised for right now.

I can't imaging someone would want to pay the same or more to share green space with their neighbors - at least in the Waco market.


I actually think there is a lot of demand for a product like this with the caveat that it has to be less expensive than traditional housing - not more expensive.

The truth is that many millennials and most of Gen Z cannot afford to buy a $400K home when they make $50K/year or $100K/year (married).
work harder and get a better job. I say that as a millennial who bought my first home in Dec of 2020. Rent, save up, work hard, and take advantage when rates are favorable. That's what we did. Oh and don't get a degree that won't pay
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4th and Inches
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In reply to T-REX • 8:48a, 4/30/22
T-REX said:
BaylorGuy314 said:
Yogi said:
The issue isn't even crime stats. It's demand.

How much demand would there be in Waco, Texas for something like this where you don't have an uber-crowded city center where there is high demand to live?

I've seen what the costs of homes on a half-acre are being appraised for right now.

I can't imaging someone would want to pay the same or more to share green space with their neighbors - at least in the Waco market.


I actually think there is a lot of demand for a product like this with the caveat that it has to be less expensive than traditional housing - not more expensive.

The truth is that many millennials and most of Gen Z cannot afford to buy a $400K home when they make $50K/year or $100K/year (married).
work harder and get a better job. I say that as a millennial who bought my first home in Dec of 2020. Rent, save up, work hard, and take advantage when rates are favorable. That's what we did. Oh and don't get a degree that won't pay
you might be right.. the 200k I spent on cultural and ethnic studies may have been a bad choice..
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T-REX
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In reply to 4th and Inches • 9:06a, 4/30/22
4th and Inches said:
T-REX said:
BaylorGuy314 said:
Yogi said:
The issue isn't even crime stats. It's demand.

How much demand would there be in Waco, Texas for something like this where you don't have an uber-crowded city center where there is high demand to live?

I've seen what the costs of homes on a half-acre are being appraised for right now.

I can't imaging someone would want to pay the same or more to share green space with their neighbors - at least in the Waco market.


I actually think there is a lot of demand for a product like this with the caveat that it has to be less expensive than traditional housing - not more expensive.

The truth is that many millennials and most of Gen Z cannot afford to buy a $400K home when they make $50K/year or $100K/year (married).
work harder and get a better job. I say that as a millennial who bought my first home in Dec of 2020. Rent, save up, work hard, and take advantage when rates are favorable. That's what we did. Oh and don't get a degree that won't pay
you might be right.. the 200k I spent on cultural and ethnic studies may have been a bad choice..
lol
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Edmond Bear
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6:29a, 5/12/22
Slightly more outline about what is being proposed from today's Trib -

Turner Brothers has proposed building 26 brownstones, 72 townhomes, 47 cottages, 80 smaller single-family homes and 15 larger single-family homes on 72 acres of the 105-acre site. The site will also have a park and some retail space.
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DS Bear
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6:40p, 5/12/22
More about the developer. Shane and Cody Turner were at Baylor in the early '00s, if any of y'all remember them. They developed Tinsley Place Apartments, Union Hall, UParks Village and West Bay. They split with Todd Behringer earlier this year, who gave the money for the Recruiting Lounge prior to connecting with the Turners. They also have a downtown redevelopment project underway in Temple

I don't envy them going to the City for a tax abatement these days. The public comments should be very interesting.
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trey3216
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In reply to DS Bear • 8:18a, 5/13/22
DS Bear said:
More about the developer. Shane and Cody Turner were at Baylor in the early '00s, if any of y'all remember them. They developed Tinsley Place Apartments, Union Hall, UParks Village and West Bay. They split with Todd Behringer earlier this year, who gave the money for the Recruiting Lounge prior to connecting with the Turners. They also have a downtown redevelopment project underway in Temple

I don't envy them going to the City for a tax abatement these days. The public comments should be very interesting.
2 of my closest friends. Yeah, the tax abatement ordeal will be an absolute trainwreck of people not knowing how it works.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
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CTbruin
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12:48p, 5/13/22
I hope it happens. The Turners do a great job.
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cowboycwr
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In reply to DS Bear • 2:27p, 5/17/22
DS Bear said:
More about the developer. Shane and Cody Turner were at Baylor in the early '00s, if any of y'all remember them. They developed Tinsley Place Apartments, Union Hall, UParks Village and West Bay. They split with Todd Behringer earlier this year, who gave the money for the Recruiting Lounge prior to connecting with the Turners. They also have a downtown redevelopment project underway in Temple

I don't envy them going to the City for a tax abatement these days. The public comments should be very interesting.
Didn't they also do a few other projects downtown? I feel like they were involved in some of the restaurants/bars down there before Union Hall. Like Austin on the Ave and some of those.
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