https://www.wacotrib.com/news/city_of_waco/city-open-to-developers-ideas-for-floyd-casey-site/article_80105d51-1525-5616-babb-814b37c024eb.html

Waco would certainly benefit from a botanical garden on a site this size. Partnerships with existing facilities and stakeholder commitments would need to be addressed, but it is doable.

I just don't see anything doing very well there. Too much of the land is off too far from Valley Mills, is to far away from the new construction on 35/highway6 where the big draws are.

Anything other than some strip shops, some medium to lower priced housing, a park, or combination of those seems like it would be doomed to failure.

BUbearinARK said:

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may be making a bid for a location, possibly

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#NeverForget

ABC BEAR said:

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Waco would certainly benefit from a botanical garden on a site this size. Partnerships with existing facilities and stakeholder commitments would need to be addressed, but it is doable.

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Has anyone, anywhere ever benefitted from a botanical garden?

If so, who, how?

Just a waste of tax payers hard earned money.

A development that was surprisingly successful (to me, at least) was Magnolia Villas.

For those out of town, Magnolia Villas is a zero lot line PUD subdivision just off Bosque. It was started by Chip and Joanna back before the show started and before their popularity boomed. Bosque is a major thoroughfare for Waco with Target and a big HEB, etc, but this particular development wasn't zoned to good schools and is surrounded by homes that were built in the 50s and 60s. Many of the homes surrounding the property have MCAD values of $100K and under.

Typically, when you build small homes, the price (overall) and on a $/SF basis can get out of whack because the lot cost has to be absorbed by lesser living SF. But because the land was relatively inexpensive (due to the area) and because of the density of the development, lot prices were lower than the norm, which meant overall construction cost could be lower which translated into lower sales prices.

The poor schools plus the surrounding area made me think that it would be a disaster. But it took off. About 1/2 way through the development, the show started going and Chip and Jo sold the lots to another local builder who finished out the neighborhood and couldn't build them fast enough. It was almost solely retired couples who wanted to downsize and have a small yard but wanted a tight community feel and easy access to major traffic arteries.

I say all that to say - with it's proximity to a huge, new(ish) HEB right on Valley Mills and easy access to I-35 and down Valley Mills, it's not out of the realm to think a similar development - if done correctly- could be successful. I'm usually not a fan of gated communities in urban environments as it promotes exclusion instead of inclusion, which is never good for development overall. However, if you went in with a very distinct theme and did a master planned community that catered to boomers that were downsizing, I think you could make it work. The City will probably help morewith that project (both financially and planning-wise) than most because they need something there that will be successful. I have to imagine they'd hedge your cost more than typical on utility infrastructure because it will easily pay for itself via tax income. The City knows that area is now an eyesore and a bunch of potential tax dollars wasted as it stands.

It really can't be commercial (at least not retail) because it has virtually no road frontage. And it can't be industrial because of it's proximity to so many houses. It's basically got to be residential and nothing high dollar will work because of it's location.

Rambling thoughts on a late Thursday night...

BaylorGuy314 said:

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A development that was surprisingly successful (to me, at least) was Magnolia Villas.

For those out of town, Magnolia Villas is a zero lot line PUD subdivision just off Bosque. It was started by Chip and Joanna back before the show started and before their popularity boomed. Bosque is a major thoroughfare for Waco with Target and a big HEB, etc, but this particular development wasn't zoned to good schools and is surrounded by homes that were built in the 50s and 60s. Many of the homes surrounding the property have MCAD values of $100K and under.

Typically, when you build small homes, the price (overall) and on a $/SF basis can get out of whack because the lot cost has to be absorbed by lesser living SF. But because the land was relatively inexpensive (due to the area) and because of the density of the development, lot prices were lower than the norm, which meant overall construction cost could be lower which translated into lower sales prices.

The poor schools plus the surrounding area made me think that it would be a disaster. But it took off. About 1/2 way through the development, the show started going and Chip and Jo sold the lots to another local builder who finished out the neighborhood and couldn't build them fast enough. It was almost solely retired couples who wanted to downsize and have a small yard but wanted a tight community feel and easy access to major traffic arteries.

I say all that to say - with it's proximity to a huge, new(ish) HEB right on Valley Mills and easy access to I-35 and down Valley Mills, it's not out of the realm to think a similar development - if done correctly- could be successful. I'm usually not a fan of gated communities in urban environments as it promotes exclusion instead of inclusion, which is never good for development overall. However, if you went in with a very distinct theme and did a master planned community that catered to boomers that were downsizing, I think you could make it work. The City will probably help morewith that project (both financially and planning-wise) than most because they need something there that will be successful. I have to imagine they'd hedge your cost more than typical on utility infrastructure because it will easily pay for itself via tax income. The City knows that area is now an eyesore and a bunch of potential tax dollars wasted as it stands.

It really can't be commercial (at least not retail) because it has virtually no road frontage. And it can't be industrial because of it's proximity to so many houses. It's basically got to be residential and nothing high dollar will work because of it's location.

Rambling thoughts on a late Thursday night...

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Not a bad idea. I would probably be too risk adverse to invest in it, but it's still not a bad idea. Probably makes more sense than just about anything else.

I think the city will have to be very generous with TIF money to get anything substantial on that land.

Yogi said:

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Make it a park. Maybe with a couple of Pop Warner fields, one sitting right on top of the old field. Put in a walking trial around the place, maybe a gym and a playground.

Add a marker where the Heisman winning touchdown happened.

And name the place Grant Teaff Park.

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Memorial Stadium in Baltimore (home of the Orioles before the move to Camden Yards) was similarly situated as FSC--in the middle of a working class neighborhood on a major street but surrounded by modest houses. Its redeveloment is one of the few successes in Baltimore outside of Inner Harbor/Fells Point. They built a Y and lots of senior housing, but left the footprint of the playing field as a park/ball field, with the footprint of the stands as a drive around the park. Here is a before/after pic:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/features/retro-baltimore/bal-nowandthen-pictures-memorial-stadium-20170302-htmlstory.html

How about some residential mixed in with some land set aside for urban farming. An urban residential community built around plots of farmland, instead of a golf course or greenspace. It's pretty amazing what 40 acres of land can produce.

Maybe get the Homestead Heritage folks involved.

Old300Bear said:

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Maybe get the Homestead Heritage folks involved.

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Sorry. Rather have women that at least you can see their ankles

You are into women farmers?

CTbruin said:

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Old300Bear said:

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Maybe get the Homestead Heritage folks involved.

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Sorry. Rather have women that at least you can see their ankles

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Old300Bear said:

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You are into women farmers?

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https://www.farmersonly.com/

boxster said:

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How about some residential mixed in with some land set aside for urban farming. An urban residential community built around plots of farmland, instead of a golf course or greenspace. It's pretty amazing what 40 acres of land can produce.

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Would the city own the land? Or individuals buying a small house with some land?

cowboycwr said:

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boxster said:

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How about some residential mixed in with some land set aside for urban farming. An urban residential community built around plots of farmland, instead of a golf course or greenspace. It's pretty amazing what 40 acres of land can produce.

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Would the city own the land? Or individuals buying a small house with some land?

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Good question. Just spit-balling here, but I'm thinking that an HOA-equivalent owns the cultivated swaths of land, with the property owners participating in the management, knowing that's the restricted purpose of the land when they bought into their property. Would hope that a portion of the production be set aside for distribution/subsidized sale to Jubilee market, or some other way to benefit low-income Waco residents.

But not sure about how any of that would work. Would want it to operate more like a nimble charitable endeavor than some quasi government bureaucracy.

And just like golf-course communities attract golfers, or golfers-to-be, hopefully this would attract people who would want to scratch their farmer/gardener/ministry-minded itch.

boxster said:

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cowboycwr said:

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boxster said:

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How about some residential mixed in with some land set aside for urban farming. An urban residential community built around plots of farmland, instead of a golf course or greenspace. It's pretty amazing what 40 acres of land can produce.

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Would the city own the land? Or individuals buying a small house with some land?

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Good question. Just spit-balling here, but I'm thinking that an HOA-equivalent owns the cultivated swaths of land, with the property owners participating in the management, knowing that's the restricted purpose of the land when they bought into their property. Would hope that a portion of the production be set aside for distribution/subsidized sale to Jubilee market, or some other way to benefit low-income Waco residents.

But not sure about how any of that would work. Would want it to operate more like a nimble charitable endeavor than some quasi government bureaucracy.

And just like golf-course communities attract golfers, or golfers-to-be, hopefully this would attract people who would want to scratch their farmer/gardener/ministry-minded itch.

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While I think that sounds like a nice idea I don't think it would be realistic in that location.

To me it seems the price of land plus house would be too expensive for the area and I don't see people buying for that purpose when the gains sound like they would be minimal for the effort/cost.

A commercial development should be called "The Gridiron" or something football related.

I see what you're saying, but I think it might work because the land is otherwise pretty worthless..and could be a differentiator that perhaps might be a draw for a small sliver of potential homeowners.

boxster said:

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I see what you're saying, but I think it might work because the land is otherwise pretty worthless..and could be a differentiator that perhaps might be a draw for a small sliver of potential homeowners.

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Perhaps. I just don't think the area around it would draw the quality of people needed for this type of venture.

The neighborhood around it is not very good and I see this as a big drawback for any residential development there.

I think most of the land is too far off valley mills to be a successful shopping center.

I could be wrong though.

cowboycwr said:

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boxster said:

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I see what you're saying, but I think it might work because the land is otherwise pretty worthless..and could be a differentiator that perhaps might be a draw for a small sliver of potential homeowners.

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Perhaps. I just don't think the area around it would draw the quality of people needed for this type of venture.

The neighborhood around it is not very good and I see this as a big drawback for any residential development there.

I think most of the land is too far off valley mills to be a successful shopping center.

I could be wrong though.

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With access from Franklin and Valley Mills Drive, it would be the perfect place to put up a few pavilions and have a giant farmers market or trade days kind of attraction.

If it's a residential development, the HOA should require lawns to be made of Astroturf - for a nice tribute to the place's history as a football stadium.

No place anyone wants nice residential. No demand for retail there (if there were demand there is plenty of space right on Valley Mills). Its problematic and likely will be for years.

regional sports complex, like the tennis/little league ones on university parks, but for basketball, volleyball, football, soccer

Build a development like the George in College Station. Boutique hotel anchoring a range of eateries with an outdoor public space for concerts. Call the hotel The Floyd. And run a light rail train/streetcar to the silos and downtown, connecting to BU. Call that the (Mighty) Casey. Floyd. Casey. You're welcome. CT can help bankroll. Done.

Besides Cameron park, what other large parks does waco have? Seems like a good spot for an urban park with athletic fields, playground, tennis courts, public pool, crushed granite 5k jogging trail going around the exterior, urban forest, etc. Retail sounds like an awful idea. Keep it green.

Tiny Elvis said:

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Build a development like the George in College Station. Boutique hotel anchoring a range of eateries with an outdoor public space for concerts. Call the hotel The Floyd. And run a light rail train/streetcar to the silos and downtown, connecting to BU. Call that the (Mighty) Casey. Floyd. Casey. You're welcome. CT can help bankroll. Done.

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Failure from the start due to location in a bad neighborhood, most of the land being off of Valley Mills, away from major shopping/ eating locations in town, etc.

WILLIS said:

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Besides Cameron park, what other large parks does waco have? Seems like a good spot for an urban park with athletic fields, playground, tennis courts, public pool, crushed granite 5k jogging trail going around the exterior, urban forest, etc. Retail sounds like an awful idea. Keep it green.

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Waco has quite a few, obviously none as large as Cameron Park but there are:

Cotton Belt Trail (out almost to McGregor) and is a sort of hiding gem but just walking trails

The baseball fields at riverbend park are city owned

The park and water/spray park on Chapel Road that most people think is Hewitt is actually Waco.

There are 5 or 6 of these water parks around town connected to the playground, basketball courts, large fields/athletic fields and a few with tennis courts. Plus one (or two?) that has a skate park

As for the public pool they are expensive, hard to maintain, a big liability, certain areas of town are hard to have a large one due to soil, etc. I remember when the SLC was built the large pool size was an issue for the ground because of its location to the creek and River and the soil being to soft.


So a park there would not really be much of a new thing other than it would be a new neighborhood park but one of the above parks is a few blocks away from the location.

WILLIS said:

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Besides Cameron park, what other large parks does waco have? Seems like a good spot for an urban park with athletic fields, playground, tennis courts, public pool, crushed granite 5k jogging trail going around the exterior, urban forest, etc. Retail sounds like an awful idea. Keep it green.

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Woodway Park is obviously not Waco but is very large with trails and frisbee golf course.

There is also Twin Bridges Park, Speegleville Park, and Lacy Point. Those may technically be owned and managed by the Corp of Engineers but it's inside city limits. And they all have campsites and lake access.

There is also Airport Park out in China Spring (but technically City of Waco).

You also have Brazos East Park which is much bigger (in acreage) than you'd think - but, admittedly, narrow.

Thanks. Just looking at google maps and it doesn't appear there is anything like that convenient for people that live in that area to get to. Can't picture half of inner Waco driving to Woodway Park. The land is located in the middle of town instead of on some outer edge. People could walk or bike to it.

Anyways, not my circus, not my monkeys

WILLIS said:

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Thanks. Just looking at google maps and it doesn't appear there is anything like that convenient for people that live in that area to get to. Can't picture half of inner Waco driving to Woodway Park. The land is located in the middle of town instead of on some outer edge. People could walk or bike to it.

Anyways, not my circus, not my monkeys

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This is true. There really isn't much in the vicinity of the stadium site, which was your point. There are a few small parks but nothing of note.

WILLIS said:

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Thanks. Just looking at google maps and it doesn't appear there is anything like that convenient for people that live in that area to get to. Can't picture half of inner Waco driving to Woodway Park. The land is located in the middle of town instead of on some outer edge. People could walk or bike to it.

Anyways, not my circus, not my monkeys

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What do you mean?

there is a park literally 3 blocks from the old stadium site.

Looking online it has: firepits, pavilion, picnic area, practice fields, playground, community center and trails.

So basically everything Woodway park has minus the frisbee golf course (because that is at Cameron Park and Brazos Park East (old Cameron Park East)


So the people that could walk or bike to a park at Floyd Casey CAN ALREADY bike or walk to an existing park.

So there is no need to build one at the stadium site just to simply add a frisbee golf course.