Both are one and done. Tang got Johnson we got George. Kansas State beat us twice and are in the Sweet 16. I think we got the short end but good for Tang. If George ends up being the better NBA player I will be shocked. If George ends up as a starter in the NBA, I will be shocked. I will be rooting for him.

Yes please

Tang rolled the dice with Johnson, mainly because he didn't have a lot of alternatives since he had to completely rebuild his roster. At any point, a doctor could have stepped in and stopped Johnson from playing any longer or, worse, a tragedy happens. It didn't happen, thank goodness, but the odds were that it could, although it was a reasonably calculated gamble.

K State wasn't Johnson's first choice. He's said that multiple times. It was one of the few schools willing to take the chance with the medical condition and potential liability issues inherent. It paid off for both as he has been a helluva player and a pivotal part of their success.

I started it. Sorry. No more negative George posts from me. I'm truly rooting for the guy. I'm hoping it was that ankle injury that caused him to play no defense and shoot 10%.

Smashmouth said:

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I started it. Sorry. No more negative George posts from me. I'm truly rooting for the guy. I'm hoping it was that ankle injury that caused him to play no defense and shoot 10%.

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Hey there. You are not an allstar.

No, because both were available to recruit for this year and we got George and Tang got Johnson.

Good point. It's fun to compare the two since they have the same first name. It never hit until the first K State game this year that Keyonte Johnson was a way better player than Keyonte George and that our former #1 assistant was probably thinking the same thing while his team kicked our rear end.

Smash. My man. My compadre. I think you picked the wrong games to illustrate your point.

George had two of his best games of the year against K State. He scored 22 points, 5 boards and 3 steals in the 2 point OT loss in Waco. Then, he had 23 of our 65 points, shot 60% from 3 on 6-10, shot almost 50% overall and grabbed 3 rebounds in our game in Manhattan.

Granted, Johnson did outscore him in both games -- but only by 2 points each time.

Funny Dane and thanks for pointing that out. Keyonte apparently got up for Keyonte. Wish he could have gotten up for more games. I'm just saying as everyone on this board knows from my posts all year, I'm very disappointed in the way this season ended. The lack of production by George on offense and defense killed us in key games down the stretch. I'm willing to give him a break because he had the ankle injury and concussion. Let's move on to next year and wish KG the best. By the way, this year I still would rather have Keyonte Johnson.

Change the page, pull up the JaKobe Walter poster, and hope for a great 23-24!

Some of our fans are truly deranged.

Thanks Dane. Just did a Bob Seeger and turned the page. I'm going to watch the rest of the tournament rooting for coach Tang. Love that guy!

It's interesting that many many of those pointing out the difference in the two players' ages fight me when I say that experience is the most important factor in college hoops success.

This comparison basically highlights why I would always rather have an impact junior or senior than an impact freshman. George may or may not be more talented than Johnson. But Johnson is a much better player at this stage of their respective development arcs.

That's not a knock on George. It's just a fact. Talented seniors are almost always better and more valuable players than talented freshmen.

And there's nothing wrong with acknowledging another team's players. Keyontae Johnson is an awesome college basketball player.

Smashmouth said:

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I started it. Sorry. No more negative George posts from me. I'm truly rooting for the guy. I'm hoping it was that ankle injury that caused him to play no defense and shoot 10%.

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He could be frustrating at times, but the one constant is he's a FRESHMAN, so there's that. Hoping he evaluates a little more college time would be a good thing.

Some of us forget when we "got it". It was not my freshman year.

During our game vs Creighton, WTBS put up a stat on KG's stats pre injury and post injury. Pre injury he was kicking **** and taking names. Post he was underwhelming a bit. I'm sure he is gone but I think 1 more year in college could really help him.

bear2be2 said:

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It's interesting that many many of those pointing out the difference in the two players' ages fight me when I say that experience is the most important factor in college hoops success.

This comparison basically highlights why I would always rather have an impact junior or senior than an impact freshman. George may or may not be more talented than Johnson. But Johnson is a much better player at this stage of their respective development arcs.

That's not a knock on George. It's just a fact. Talented seniors are almost always better and more valuable players than talented freshmen.

And there's nothing wrong with acknowledging another team's players. Keyontae Johnson is an awesome college basketball player.

---

our women's Coach said something to the effect of, regardless how good a freshman is at some point they will remind you they are a freshman.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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bear2be2 said:

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It's interesting that many many of those pointing out the difference in the two players' ages fight me when I say that experience is the most important factor in college hoops success.

This comparison basically highlights why I would always rather have an impact junior or senior than an impact freshman. George may or may not be more talented than Johnson. But Johnson is a much better player at this stage of their respective development arcs.

That's not a knock on George. It's just a fact. Talented seniors are almost always better and more valuable players than talented freshmen.

And there's nothing wrong with acknowledging another team's players. Keyontae Johnson is an awesome college basketball player.

---

our women's Coach said something to the effect of, regardless how good a freshman is at some point they will remind you they are a freshman.

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All of this. Three years of experience and maturity make a big difference (in many things).

ScottS said:

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During our game vs Creighton, WTBS put up a stat on KG's stats pre injury and post injury. Pre injury he was kicking **** and taking names. Post he was underwhelming a bit. I'm sure he is gone but I think 1 more year in college could really help him.

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Agreed he didn't get his shot back post injury. Seemed to be pressing a bit.
From what I have seen, there are three guys --Kobe, Lebron, KD-- that didn't need a year or 2 in college or elsewhere before the NBA. Could Keyonte benefit from another year? Absolutely. Problem is, he is looking a high likelihood of guaranteed $millions in this draft. Also, as a 6-3/4 combo guard, he is not likely to improve his draft position all that much by staying. As much as we and he might like him to stay, there is going to be pressure to take the money now. I am reminded of the story the neighbors told of a Pastor with a large family who was considering a call to a bigger Church at twice the salary: "Pastor is praying, but the wife is packing."

Smashmouth said:

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I started it. Sorry. No more negative George posts from me. I'm truly rooting for the guy. I'm hoping it was that ankle injury that caused him to play no defense and shoot 10%.

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You sound like you hate him, especially since you keep constantly clarifying how you're rooting for him. And his defense actually got better in the tournament compared to the regular season (yes, it still left a lot to be desired).

I try to give him a pass because he's young and stuck in the mindset that he can emulate James Harden and have the same success. He'll eventually learn how wrong he is. And I'd imagine that, at some point, he'll put more effort on the defensive end. But I do agree that he will end up getting drafted later than anticipated. He's not going in the lottery.

ScottS said:

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During our game vs Creighton, WTBS put up a stat on KG's stats pre injury and post injury. Pre injury he was kicking **** and taking names. Post he was underwhelming a bit. I'm sure he is gone but I think 1 more year in college could really help him.

---

His field goal and 3-point percentages have been low all season. He's struggled to put in the effort defensively even though the coaching staff has gone above and beyond to try to help him focus on improving. His shot selection isn't great, which is the main reason why his percentages are so poor.

He'd without question benefit from playing one more season. There could be a dramatic improvement since his issues or more mental than anything else. He won't come back. But it would definitely help him. He could also gain from showcasing his skills handling the ball with more opportunities to run the offense and improve as a distributor.

He can make all those improvements in the NBA making millions. You can't fault him. It is basic risk vs. reward. There is very little to be gained, maybe a few draft slots, compared to everything that could be lost in the event of injury. Just look what happened to EJ's career.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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He can make all those improvements in the NBA making millions. You can't fault him. It is basic risk vs. reward. There is very little to be gained, maybe a few draft slots, compared to everything that could be lost in the event of injury. Just look what happened to EJ's career.

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Exactly. He will improve exponentially being able to focus 100% on basketball and having the best coaches, trainers and competition in the world. At some point, you either have it or you don't. Time will tell if he has it.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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He can make all those improvements in the NBA making millions. You can't fault him. It is basic risk vs. reward. There is very little to be gained, maybe a few draft slots, compared to everything that could be lost in the event of injury. Just look what happened to EJ's career.

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George isn't coming back, and financially, he probably shouldn't.

But the "he can make those improvements in the NBA" point ignores the fact that the NBA is not a developmental league. It's an assembly line league.

You get on when you're drafted/signed and stay on as long as you're useful to a team. And you usually only get three years to prove your value before getting traded or dumped. These teams don't need to have any patience because they can and will replace you with a guy just as athletic in the next draft.

There is value to going into the NBA more ready for the NBA. Because those who aren't ready get chewed up and spit out pretty quickly. Quincy Miller and Perry Jones are both good local examples. And I fear Kendall Brown will be the next.

I think a lot of college players would be wise to stay the extra an year or even two to master their game before going into the draft and the league. I think they would be better players and have more NBA longevity/make more money in the long run doing so. But it's easy for me to tell kids they should pass up guaranteed millions now from my computer.

bear2be2 said:

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It's interesting that many many of those pointing out the difference in the two players' ages fight me when I say that experience is the most important factor in college hoops success.

This comparison basically highlights why I would always rather have an impact junior or senior than an impact freshman. George may or may not be more talented than Johnson. But Johnson is a much better player at this stage of their respective development arcs.

That's not a knock on George. It's just a fact. Talented seniors are almost always better and more valuable players than talented freshmen.

And there's nothing wrong with acknowledging another team's players. Keyontae Johnson is an awesome college basketball player.

---

Zach Loveday was a 3* player. Coaches miss more on 3* players than 4* or 5*. George was really good. Not great yet. He is not the problem on this team.

It's good to get freshman 3* players who will play hard and graduate at Baylor. I support that. But only that and we might win every 3 or 4 years and never beat Kansas. Sprinkle in 4* and 5* talent along with multi-year program guys and you will have a program like Kansas - successful every year.

JP1037 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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It's interesting that many many of those pointing out the difference in the two players' ages fight me when I say that experience is the most important factor in college hoops success.

This comparison basically highlights why I would always rather have an impact junior or senior than an impact freshman. George may or may not be more talented than Johnson. But Johnson is a much better player at this stage of their respective development arcs.

That's not a knock on George. It's just a fact. Talented seniors are almost always better and more valuable players than talented freshmen.

And there's nothing wrong with acknowledging another team's players. Keyontae Johnson is an awesome college basketball player.

---

Zach Loveday was a 3* player. Coaches miss more on 3* players than 4* or 5*. George was really good. Not great yet. He is not the problem on this team.

It's good to get freshman 3* players who will play hard and graduate at Baylor. I support that. But only that and we might win every 3 or 4 years and never beat Kansas. Sprinkle in 4* and 5* talent along with multi-year program guys and you will have a program like Kansas - successful every year.

---

I'm not talking about three star players. I'm talking about really polished four star players with physical limitations that would hurt their NBA stock. Like Drew Timme. Or Jared Butler. Or any number of the other guys we've recruited and developed throughout Scott Drew's tenure.

There are a ton of those guys in the college game. Outstanding college players who aren't destined for NBA greatness and will stay in their programs for a minimum of three years.

And George was not the problem with this team, but he was most certainly a problem at the end of the year. He was no longer capable of fulfilling his assigned role as a scoring guard by the end of the season. That's a major problem, particularly when you don't bring much in other areas.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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He can make all those improvements in the NBA making millions. You can't fault him. It is basic risk vs. reward. There is very little to be gained, maybe a few draft slots, compared to everything that could be lost in the event of injury. Just look what happened to EJ's career.

---

Sure, he could. But those are issues you should have sorted out beforehand. How many players have we seen leave too early and end up doing nothing in the pros? Quincy Miller was rated higher than Keyonte. Left after 1 year. Was out of the league not long after.

Kendall Brown might be going the same direction. His stock dropped as the season progressed while Sochan's rose. Even when mock drafts had Brown going higher, it was obvious that his passiveness on both ends was not going to go over with scouts, while Sochan was trending up and lottery seemed inevitable.

You don't go to the NBA to improve on effort-related deficiencies. They're not there to coddle you and give you a cookie for trying hard on defense. You can see how hard the entire BU staff worked to try to get KG to buy in to simply putting in effort on defense. Just watch the Creighton game again and see the bench reaction whenever KG draws or charge or just puts in effort. Even Drew called him out earlier in the season when both were interviewed postgame on live TV.

I watch the same games you do and I don't disagree with any of Keyonte's faults and shortcomings you are pointing out here. But what can be gained from returning if he's already a projected mid 1st rounder? Versus what could be lost if he returned and got injured? You are ignoring the risk/reward part of the equation.

P.S KB had to undergo surgery for a stress fracture in his tibia. If he would have returned, that injury probably would have sidelined him and kept him from getting drafted at all. Even though he slid to 2nd round, he at least got a half a million this year and will get 1.7 million next year. That is a lot of money for most of us common folk. Versus no money if sidelined at Baylor with an injury.

Art_E_Guinn said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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He can make all those improvements in the NBA making millions. You can't fault him. It is basic risk vs. reward. There is very little to be gained, maybe a few draft slots, compared to everything that could be lost in the event of injury. Just look what happened to EJ's career.

---

Sure, he could. But those are issues you should have sorted out beforehand. How many players have we seen leave too early and end up doing nothing in the pros? Quincy Miller was rated higher than Keyonte. Left after 1 year. Was out of the league not long after.

Kendall Brown might be going the same direction. His stock dropped as the season progressed while Sochan's rose. Even when mock drafts had Brown going higher, it was obvious that his passiveness on both ends was not going to go over with scouts, while Sochan was trending up and lottery seemed inevitable.

You don't go to the NBA to improve on effort-related deficiencies. They're not there to coddle you and give you a cookie for trying hard on defense. You can see how hard the entire BU staff worked to try to get KG to buy in to simply putting in effort on defense. Just watch the Creighton game again and see the bench reaction whenever KG draws or charge or just puts in effort. Even Drew called him out earlier in the season when both were interviewed postgame on live TV.

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I agree with you. I'd love to see data on this, but anecdotally, it has been my experience that players who go to the NBA before they're ready to compete at that level typically don't last very long. The teams just have no incentive to be patient with them because none of these guys are irreplaceable in their talent.

There's a new crop just as talented and athletic coming the next year, so the teams can just chalk those that flounder up to being busts and replace them at the next available opportunity.

Guys make progress as pros certainly. But it's rare that a player who is unprepared for that level of play is allowed time to catch up to his peers. Once you're drafted, you're expected to earn your keep.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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I watch the same games you do and I don't disagree with any of Keyonte's faults and shortcomings you are pointing out here. But what can be gained from returning if he's already a projected mid 1st rounder? Versus what could be lost if he returned and got injured? You are ignoring the risk/reward part of the equation.

P.S KB had to undergo surgery for a stress fracture in his tibia. If he would have returned, that injury probably would have sidelined him and kept him from getting drafted at all. Even though he slid to 2nd round, he at least got a half a million this year and will get 1.7 million next year. That is a lot of money for most of us common folk. Versus no money if sidelined at Baylor with an injury.

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There's risk to going too early, too.

It's more long-term than immediate. But the player that plays three or four years of college ball, leaves as a mature player ready to contribute immediately in the NBA and has a eight-plus year career in the league (ie. Taurean Prince) is going to make more money in the long run than the freshman who leaves before he is remotely ready to play NBA basketball and washes out in three years.

Those aren't the only outcomes obviously, so a ton of factors have to be weighed. But there is a lot of risk in starting your NBA clock when you're game hasn't reached the necessary level yet.

These NBA teams aren't as enamored with the hotshot one-and-done freshman as everyone else has been to that point in their life. You're just a guy at that level. Everyone's elite. If you're not ready to help a team win, they won't keep you around to develop.