Great time to go to it. But why was Cincinnati so befuddled by it. Ironically, we had the best help defense we've had all year.
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Last: 10 mo ago by TXBEAR_bf
Cincinnati doesn't shoot well from the outside and they couldn't get inside against the zone. They were forced to take jump shots and they couldn't knock them down until Skillings hit a couple of big ones late.BUCANDOIT82 said:
Great time to go to it. But why was Cincinnati so befuddled by it. Ironically, we had the best help defense we've had all year.
It was a good move by Drew and at the right time. He should use it is spurts in other future games.
I loved the move to zone. Going forward teams will have to prepare for that. And I thought we really played well, and rebounded well out of it.
vanillabryce said:
I loved the move to zone. Going forward teams will have to prepare for that. And I thought we really played well, and rebounded well out of it.
Zone won us this game. We struggle on dribble penetration so strategically using zone makes good sense. Glad to see it.
Old timer here. Hate the zone. Glad we won.
Jakobi Walter was the happiest guy on the court when we went zone. He actually was way more comfortable and didn't have to deal with getting over or through screens. This team had much better chemistry with this than we've seen from past teams post Acy.
Can't win championships playing zone. It is an admission of weakness to depend on it. Better teams than Cincy would have murdered our zone but…we won and that's all that matters.
Undefeated in the Bill Gates Girlfriend Arena.
It's isn't an admission of weakness, it's a smart strategy when properly implemented. I trust our national championship winning coach.
Yep. A well-run zone is always better than a poorly run man. And there's nothing more manly or pure about the latter.contrario said:
It's isn't an admission of weakness, it's a smart strategy when properly implemented. I trust our national championship winning coach.
Jim Boeheim already disproved the silly notion that a zone team can't win a championship. And our 2010 might have as well had it not been for a god-awful charge call late in that Elite Eight game against Duke.
Stefano DiMera said:
Undefeated in the Bill Gates Girlfriend Arena.
That's funny
contrario said:
It's isn't an admission of weakness, it's a smart strategy when properly implemented. I trust our national championship winning coach.
Wait, I thought Tang was the only coach who could coach defense?
Bakersdozen said:
Can't win championships playing zone. It is an admission of weakness to depend on it. Better teams than Cincy would have murdered our zone but…we won and that's all that matters.
In spurts it is really good. Obviously you can't reliably win playing even 30% zone, but at the end when emotions are high, bodies are tired, it can be super confusing to see for a few plays. Because most teams generally play it, no matter how you prepare, it is such a different look all the sudden. And if it is working, don't change until they figure it out.
Stefano DiMera said:
Undefeated in the Bill Gates Girlfriend Arena.
Sorry to pick nits, but the floor is named for the Hurds not the arena.
According to some. There are also some he think Scott Drew cannot coach. They have been pretty silent since April 5, 2021.
The fact that Drew went back and forth must have made a huge difference. That's great coaching.
But that was only because Tang was still on staff....right?historian said:
According to some. There are also some he think Scott Drew cannot coach. They have been pretty silent since April 5, 2021.
So they say. There's no doubt that Tang is a great coach. That's why the K State players requested him and he proved it with an amazing first season. But none of that takes away from Scott Drew's accomplishments. One only needs to look at how many successful HC's are part of his coaching tree, including two in the Big 12. By the way, one of those is currently tied with Drew atop the conference standings.
We went to the zone because (a) the Cincy point guard was blowing by Nunn at will and the help side rotations were simply not there and (b) after we switched on the perimeter the Cincy bigs were eating up our guards inside on rim runs (Nunn was actually respectable on post defense, all things considered).
Zones are meant to prevent both of those issues while giving up outside shots. Cincy just could not hit or swing the ball fast enough to punish our zone. Additionally, rebounding is really tough out of a zone as it is harder for defenses to put a body on a man in a zone (e.g., the kick out 3s that Jon Scheyer hit against us that were back breakers in the infamous Elite 8 game).
In 36 years of the three point shot in the ncaa, only one team has won a national championship running a zone as their base defense. That team had what many people consider to be the greatest freshmen player to ever play in the ncaa (Carmelo) and a freak athletic defender in Hakeem Warrick. Not for nothing, the championship game for that team came down to the final possession of the game. That team also won on a shorter three-point line (theoretically less space to cover).
All of that said, you go to war with the army you have and it was the right move. Walter was also more engaged in the zone, or, perhaps, it is more accurate to say he had less to think about in the zone and he played more freely defensively. After last night, it is clear he can engage on ball defense at a plus level. Itis the switches and help side rotations he's still learning.
To be clear, the team has definitely been practicing the zone. One thing that is unique about the Baylor zone is the guards up high switch and rotate who is defending the point of attack. It actually looks like a man defense in that respect. That's a sophisticated version of a gimmick used in youth basketball where you start a defensive possession by stacking your guards in a 2-3 zone so it actually looks like a 1-1-3. To start. Your better guard defender then goes with the ball side as you settle into a 2-3 zone. Even at the college level, those switches the Baylor guards were doing up top take some amount of practice to run. You don't just start doing it on the fly halfway through the season when you first employ a zone in a conference game. So, to my eye, they've been practicing it given the quality of the switches/matchups last night and Drew has been thinking about doing this for a while this season.
Completely unrelated, I'm still trying to figure out why Big Josh O took that elbow shot early in the shot clock on our second to last possession. On the plus side, good for him for having the confidence to pull the trigger but man, what was that? For how much he has improved, a good reminder that he simply hasn't had reps and situational basketball is not yet his strength.
Zones are meant to prevent both of those issues while giving up outside shots. Cincy just could not hit or swing the ball fast enough to punish our zone. Additionally, rebounding is really tough out of a zone as it is harder for defenses to put a body on a man in a zone (e.g., the kick out 3s that Jon Scheyer hit against us that were back breakers in the infamous Elite 8 game).
In 36 years of the three point shot in the ncaa, only one team has won a national championship running a zone as their base defense. That team had what many people consider to be the greatest freshmen player to ever play in the ncaa (Carmelo) and a freak athletic defender in Hakeem Warrick. Not for nothing, the championship game for that team came down to the final possession of the game. That team also won on a shorter three-point line (theoretically less space to cover).
All of that said, you go to war with the army you have and it was the right move. Walter was also more engaged in the zone, or, perhaps, it is more accurate to say he had less to think about in the zone and he played more freely defensively. After last night, it is clear he can engage on ball defense at a plus level. Itis the switches and help side rotations he's still learning.
To be clear, the team has definitely been practicing the zone. One thing that is unique about the Baylor zone is the guards up high switch and rotate who is defending the point of attack. It actually looks like a man defense in that respect. That's a sophisticated version of a gimmick used in youth basketball where you start a defensive possession by stacking your guards in a 2-3 zone so it actually looks like a 1-1-3. To start. Your better guard defender then goes with the ball side as you settle into a 2-3 zone. Even at the college level, those switches the Baylor guards were doing up top take some amount of practice to run. You don't just start doing it on the fly halfway through the season when you first employ a zone in a conference game. So, to my eye, they've been practicing it given the quality of the switches/matchups last night and Drew has been thinking about doing this for a while this season.
Completely unrelated, I'm still trying to figure out why Big Josh O took that elbow shot early in the shot clock on our second to last possession. On the plus side, good for him for having the confidence to pull the trigger but man, what was that? For how much he has improved, a good reminder that he simply hasn't had reps and situational basketball is not yet his strength.
Defense looked much better, offense not so much. Too much globetrotter weave. Not enough inside outside.
It worked perfect for Cincy because they aren't good from 3 and shoot a lot of mid range shots. Zone also allows us to drop back some and be in better position for defensive rebounding. Cincy is elite against the offensive and defensive glass. We were able to neutralize that some last night with foul trouble and positioning which zone helped with. I've given up hope on our guards being able to stop penetration to the basket even though I was very optimistic in non con that would improve by conference. If we can't stop Cornell, BYU, or Cincy guards we are in trouble when we face elite teams. Let's see what Brooks can put together by then. Great win! Great atmosphere! Let's go get a road win!
Welcome to Baylor basketball over the past 8 or 10 years.dstaylor57 said:
Defense looked much better, offense not so much. Too much globetrotter weave. Not enough inside outside.
historian said:
The fact that Drew went back and forth must have made a huge difference. That's great coaching.
It does - it confuses the offense and takes them out of any rhythm they have. We primarily played man defense, but we would alternate to a 1-3-1 matchup zone with man principles. It would take some teams a few possessions to even figure out we made the change.
Crawfoso1973 said:Welcome to Baylor basketball over the past 8 or 10 years.dstaylor57 said:
Defense looked much better, offense not so much. Too much globetrotter weave. Not enough inside outside.
Well then sign me up.
Three of our five best seasons and three of our four deepest tournament runs in modern program history came running zone almost exclusively.Porteroso said:Bakersdozen said:
Can't win championships playing zone. It is an admission of weakness to depend on it. Better teams than Cincy would have murdered our zone but…we won and that's all that matters.
In spurts it is really good. Obviously you can't reliably win playing even 30% zone, but at the end when emotions are high, bodies are tired, it can be super confusing to see for a few plays. Because most teams generally play it, no matter how you prepare, it is such a different look all the sudden. And if it is working, don't change until they figure it out.
And under Drew, our zone teams graded significantly higher than all but a few of our man teams have in defensive efficiency.
I'll support Scott Drew and whatever defense he wants to run. And I tend to think our best bet is probably a mix of man and zone. But history has shown Drew to be a much better teacher of zone defense than man. And I would welcome a full-time switch back to the zone if it meant climbing from 70s and 100s in defensive efficiency back into the 30s.
There was some hope with Nunn after the BYU game, but now we know that he's completely unplayable in man-to-man. Zone is probably a necessity moving forward in conference play.
I don't think Nunn's blow-by issue yesterday was anything that can't be fixed. He was just anticipating too much and got caught flat-footed on pick-and-roll situations where the penetrating guard went opposite of the screen.Hotsauce said:
There was some hope with Nunn after the BYU game, but now we know that he's completely unplayable in man-to-man. Zone is probably a necessity moving forward in conference play.
He was preparing to go under, through and around screens while his man was beating him to his dominant hand. That's fixable. He just needs to stop cheating and play defense.
bear2be2 said:Three of our five best seasons and three of our four deepest tournament runs in modern program history came running zone almost exclusively.Porteroso said:Bakersdozen said:
Can't win championships playing zone. It is an admission of weakness to depend on it. Better teams than Cincy would have murdered our zone but…we won and that's all that matters.
In spurts it is really good. Obviously you can't reliably win playing even 30% zone, but at the end when emotions are high, bodies are tired, it can be super confusing to see for a few plays. Because most teams generally play it, no matter how you prepare, it is such a different look all the sudden. And if it is working, don't change until they figure it out.
And under Drew, our zone teams graded significantly higher than all but a few of our man teams have in defensive efficiency.
I'll support Scott Drew and whatever defense he wants to run. And I tend to think our best bet is probably a mix of man and zone. But history has shown Drew to be a much better teacher of zone defense than man. And I would welcome a full-time switch back to the zone if it meant climbing from 70s and 100s in defensive efficiency back into the 30s.
IIRC, the natty team ran man defense almost exclusively. But that year we had exceptional talent and experience.
It's happened too often now. His stance and footwork are poor. Base way too thin too often. Moving at the back a lot. It would take a lot of fundamental work to get it corrected unfortunately.
Previous clips his defense looked okay so I agree the guessing in coverage is making it much worse. Has been blown by nearly as much as the guards from last year. Still a "better" defender than those but barely. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense since he's a capable athlete but instinct and fundamentals on defense just isn't close
Previous clips his defense looked okay so I agree the guessing in coverage is making it much worse. Has been blown by nearly as much as the guards from last year. Still a "better" defender than those but barely. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense since he's a capable athlete but instinct and fundamentals on defense just isn't close
Agreed but mainly I think it's because he tries to play guys way up too close and gets blown by. He could get away with defending lesser players that close but not at this level. Walter was doing this earlier in the season but appears to have corrected it. Holding out hope that Nunn can get this corrected as we move forward.Quinton said:
It's happened too often now. His stance and footwork are poor. Base way too thin too often. Moving at the back a lot. It would take a lot of fundamental work to get it corrected unfortunately.
Previous clips his defense looked okay so I agree the guessing in coverage is making it much worse. Has been blown by nearly as much as the guards from last year. Still a "better" defender than those but barely. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense since he's a capable athlete but instinct and fundamentals on defense just isn't close
I loved the zone midway through the second half as it didn't give the Cinncinnatti coach time to plan for it at half time. Good coaches like Self, Porter, and Dixon will tear it apart by playing the baseline. self has done this every time we have played Zone, like lob city. I do think the ability to switch into it on the fly provides an ability to stymie an opponent for at least 4-5 trips down the floor.
Dunn is not the only defender getting beat off the bounce. Walter and Love have both struggled with it too. Dennis seemed to be a little better in the last couple of games, even though he seems to be the slowest of the bunch. I think Dunn can turn the corner. He gets so much more energetic when his offense is clicking. He is too valuable in the rotation to not play. But agree with others that his ability to stay with is man is troubling. He was getting absolutely killed on screens by the opposing post player, like he didn't know it was coming. I hope our bigs are calling that when it is coming. He is trying to fight through on top of the screen, which is the right move. Cincinnati bigs were really good at setting the pick, in my opinion, much better than Josh or Yves.
There is time for this team to get better. I think the fact that 4 out of five are new starters for this team is significant. If healthy this team has the potential to be a great 8 type team. I have tapped the breaks personally on being a national title contender. I still have my Phoenix flight booked however.
Dunn is not the only defender getting beat off the bounce. Walter and Love have both struggled with it too. Dennis seemed to be a little better in the last couple of games, even though he seems to be the slowest of the bunch. I think Dunn can turn the corner. He gets so much more energetic when his offense is clicking. He is too valuable in the rotation to not play. But agree with others that his ability to stay with is man is troubling. He was getting absolutely killed on screens by the opposing post player, like he didn't know it was coming. I hope our bigs are calling that when it is coming. He is trying to fight through on top of the screen, which is the right move. Cincinnati bigs were really good at setting the pick, in my opinion, much better than Josh or Yves.
There is time for this team to get better. I think the fact that 4 out of five are new starters for this team is significant. If healthy this team has the potential to be a great 8 type team. I have tapped the breaks personally on being a national title contender. I still have my Phoenix flight booked however.
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