Gameday Thread: #15 Baylor (14-4; 3-2) vs TCU (14-5; 3-3)

Quinton said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

Sochan and Missi weren't recruited as one and dones. No one had them as first round picks, and certainly not lottery guys. The coaching staff developing these guys ahead of schedule came back to bite them. I don't blame Drew and Co. for that.

The roster having holes is due to catastrophic injury (EJ) and rapid development.

---

It's a very good point and one of the reasons all hope isn't lost into the future. I'm one of those down on the staff right now and think we need a shake up. But I can't argue with the facts. What you point out is objectively true.

Victim of their own success in first identifying talent and developing quickly. Sochan and Jon killed roster construction. But now it needs to be fixed.

---

I'm never going to have a problem with a player who is so good on your campus that he outperforms projections and becomes a surprise one-and-done. Those guys are program success stories.

What I want to move away from is those who have been anointed one-and-dones before they've even stepped foot on campus and are only using our program as a mandated stop on their way to the NBA. Those guys aren't worth the time or effort IMO.

That's not to say they're bad kids or players. They're just not good or mature enough as freshmen to make the difference they'd need to make to be worth it on a one-year investment.

bear2be2 said:

---

Crawfoso1973 said:

---

Weird timing for the tired one-and-done debate / discussion.

Walter and Missi were arguably our 2 best players this afternoon. We need more like them.

---

Outside of one 3-pointer at the end of regulation and a couple of clutch free throws, Walter was a disaster today. I'm not sure what game you were watching.

But it's not about those players individually. It's about making commitments to players who are neither good or mature enough to lead a team to success in conference and tournament play.

---

Walter's shooting has been off during conference, but he is playing tough per usual, getting to the free throw line, and making energy plays that don't show up on the boxscore. He was far from a disaster today.

Maybe it's just me but I don't think shunning talented players is a good idea. In the transfer portal era, it's not realistic to recruit players and expect them to stick around and develop over a 3 or 4 year period (unless they are inferior talent-wise in which case I don't think would be a good strategy either).

Crawfoso1973 said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Crawfoso1973 said:

---

Weird timing for the tired one-and-done debate / discussion.

Walter and Missi were arguably our 2 best players this afternoon. We need more like them.

---

Outside of one 3-pointer at the end of regulation and a couple of clutch free throws, Walter was a disaster today. I'm not sure what game you were watching.

But it's not about those players individually. It's about making commitments to players who are neither good or mature enough to lead a team to success in conference and tournament play.

---

Walter's shooting has been off during conference, but he is playing tough per usual, getting to the free throw line, and making energy plays that don't show up on the boxscore. He was far from a disaster today.

Maybe it's just me but I don't think shunning talented players is a good idea. In the transfer portal era, it's not realistic to recruit players and expect them to stick around and develop over a 3 or 4 year period (unless they are inferior talent-wise in which case I don't think would be a good strategy either).

---

He was dreadful on both ends in the first half. We didn't make our run until he was pulled. And he was only slightly better in the second half.

He finally decided to make some contribution to the game after hitting the game-tying 3 at the end of regulation, and played pretty well in the OT periods.

But I would almost guarantee he had a negative plus/minus today. We were a better team with him off the floor in regulation.

And every good team in the Big 12 currently is proving your last paragraph wrong. Those teams are using the transfer portal, too, but all of them have multi-year program guys leading them right now.

This idea that we can't develop players because it's impossible in modern college basketball is a copout.

BearTruth13 said:

---

Why I've never liked the one and done approach. Our best teams ever were 2010 and the 2020/2021 squads.

Senior laden teams with talented but not highly recruited talent.

---

The transfer portal changed the landscape of basketball. Recruiting strategy had to change. We need to stop comparing our current teams to our Natty team.

bear2be2 said:

---

Crawfoso1973 said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Crawfoso1973 said:

---

Weird timing for the tired one-and-done debate / discussion.

Walter and Missi were arguably our 2 best players this afternoon. We need more like them.

---

Outside of one 3-pointer at the end of regulation and a couple of clutch free throws, Walter was a disaster today. I'm not sure what game you were watching.

But it's not about those players individually. It's about making commitments to players who are neither good or mature enough to lead a team to success in conference and tournament play.

---

Walter's shooting has been off during conference, but he is playing tough per usual, getting to the free throw line, and making energy plays that don't show up on the boxscore. He was far from a disaster today.

Maybe it's just me but I don't think shunning talented players is a good idea. In the transfer portal era, it's not realistic to recruit players and expect them to stick around and develop over a 3 or 4 year period (unless they are inferior talent-wise in which case I don't think would be a good strategy either).

---

He was dreadful on both ends in the first half. We didn't make our run until he was pulled. And he was only slightly better in the second half.

He finally decided to make some contribution to the game after hitting the game-tying 3 at the end of regulation, and played pretty well in the OT periods.

But I would almost guarantee he had a negative plus/minus today. We were a better team with him off the floor in regulation.

And every good team in the Big 12 currently is proving your last paragraph wrong. Those teams are using the transfer portal, too, but all of them have multi-year program guys leading them right now.

This idea that we can't develop players because it's impossible in modern college basketball is a copout.

---

We are in the thick of the big 12 race. You need to step back from the ledge my man. We have had 3 tough losses in a row, I get it.

Yep, we have posts from early last season (when they were still ranked in the 20s) pointing out UConn's elite upside. Their best was clearly the best in the country even early in the year. We haven't flashed that this year.

Walter/gGeorge....same thing. I'm done with one and done's. I hate em.

Houston doesn't have any pro talent .. that isn't by design. Wright (our Philly pg recruit) is infinitely more skilled than any Houston player at the same age. It isn't even the same planet. Wright is seen to have pro potential but has some perceived limitations (think Brunson at Villanova). Wasn't the case for Houston's featured guys.

Their veteran 22 or 23 yr old pg was getting only mid major offers. Their other 22+ yr old guard last year was outside the top 300 recruits and they developed. Now that pretty much guarantees they will be around for awhile but not that they'll be any good.

It works bc he has an uncompromising system. That's a coaching issue. Sampson is a much better defensive and effort coach than our staff. How he gets the guys he has to play like that is a miracle.

Now the issue. Sampson whiffed on a ton of guys he wanted. His effort then defensive obsession is repellent for top prospects. So it works out great for him. But it isn't always actively planned for. They aren't shunning guys they can get. They don't have the luxury to choose, that's the point. Essentially it's not a comparable situation.

Once again the only parallel is Villanova under Wright.

The point we're making is it's a lot easier said than done. It's hard to implement unless you are forced to due to limited choice (Houston).

bear2be2 said:

---

We haven't played any of the best teams on our schedule yet and we're 3-3 -- and frankly damn lucky to be. We should have lost at Stillwater and could have easily lost at home to Cincinnati.

---

True - but also true that in 2 of the last 3 games, we lost on offensive rebounds that went directly to 1 opponent in the midst of 4 BU defenders. The kickout to Kaluma for the 4 point play and today's game winning bucket were simply lucky bounces. It happens in basketball - beyond frustrating - but it happens.
This BU team is talented - just young and playing together for the first season.They haven't developed the late game poise that you need to consistently close out these games. Hopefully these experiences will help later in the season.

There are no bad teams in the big 12. Anyone can lose or win on any given night.

Smashmouth said:

---

Walter/gGeorge....same thing. I'm done with one and done's. I hate em.

---

You probably should find another team to root for, then.

DP4LIFE said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

We haven't played any of the best teams on our schedule yet and we're 3-3 -- and frankly damn lucky to be. We should have lost at Stillwater and could have easily lost at home to Cincinnati.

---

True - but also true that in 2 of the last 3 games, we lost on offensive rebounds that went directly to 1 opponent in the midst of 4 BU defenders. The kickout to Kaluma for the 4 point play and today's game winning bucket were simply lucky bounces. It happens in basketball - beyond frustrating - but it happens.
This BU team is talented - just young and playing together for the first season.They haven't developed the late game poise that you need to consistently close out these games. Hopefully these experiences will help later in the season.

---

Well said.

And everyone uses their age as an excuse for their poor performances.

So is this team young or not?

Quinton said:

---

Houston doesn't have any pro talent .. that isn't by design. Wright (our Philly pg recruit) is infinitely more skilled than any Houston player at the same age. It isn't even the same planet. Wright is seen to have pro potential but has some perceived limitations (think Brunson at Villanova). Wasn't the case for Houston's featured guys.

Their veteran 22 or 23 yr old pg was getting only mid major offers. Their other 22+ yr old guard last year was outside the top 300 recruits and they developed. Now that pretty much guarantees they will be around for awhile but not that they'll be any good.

It works bc he has an uncompromising system. That's a coaching issue. Sampson is a much better defensive and effort coach than our staff. How he gets the guys he has to play like that is a miracle.

Now the issue. Sampson whiffed on a ton of guys he wanted. His effort then defensive obsession is repellent for top prospects. So it works out great for him. But it isn't always actively planned for. They aren't shunning guys they can get. They don't have the luxury to choose, that's the point. Essentially it's not a comparable situation.

Once again the only parallel is Villanova under Wright.

The point we're making is it's a lot easier said than done. It's hard to implement unless you are forced to due to limited choice (Houston).

---

This.

Houston doesn't have the team they do by design. If they were able to recruit at a higher level the past 3-4 years, they would have. They landed Jarace Walker, a one-and-done, and he's been their highest-rated player, maybe ever. They knew he was a one year player when they signed him.

Sampson has done well with the hand he's been dealt, but to act like they're intentionally targeting lower rated guys is pretty wild to believe sincerely.

IvanBear said:

---

And everyone uses their age as an excuse for their poor performances.

So is this team young or not?

---

Missi and Walter have had poor performances. And so have our upperclassmen and who have been around 3 and 4 years. Poor performances happen. One and done doesn't mean they will come in and dominate college basketball. They are not the problem.

Due to the transfer portal, every roster in America will turn over every offseason. Would you rather reload with young, elite talent or a team full of Jayden Nunns every year?

Very well-stated. It is also wild the hand full of posters coming on the game threads to blame our 2 one and done players after every loss.

Crawfoso1973 said:

---

IvanBear said:

---

And everyone uses their age as an excuse for their poor performances.

So is this team young or not?

---

Missi and Walter have had poor performances. And so have our upperclassmen and who have been around 3 and 4 years. Poor performances happen. One and done doesn't mean they will come in and dominate college basketball. They are not the problem.

Due to the transfer portal, every roster in America will turn over every offseason. Would you rather reload with young, elite talent or a team full of Jayden Nunns every year?

---

Not counting Tchamwa Tchatchoua, who doesn't play anymore, we have exactly one upperclassman who has "been around three and four years" (Langston Love), and he's one of the two most consistent players on our team.

The lack of those types of guys on our roster is a problem.

When we were making deep tournament runs, we always had three or four such guys playing prominent roles.

By 3 or 4 year guys I also meant transfers (Bridges, Dennis, etc) with 3 or 4 years of college experience. With so much roster turnover every year rebuilding with freshmen and transfers is an annual reality. The transfer portal changed everything. Things aren't the same as back in the day when we could keep guys in the program 5 or 6 years.

Crawfoso1973 said:

---

Very well-stated. It is also wild the hand full of posters coming on the game threads to blame our 2 one and done players after every loss.

---

No one is blaming them specifically for any individual loss. Why you can't comprehend that is beyond me.

This isn't about them personally. It's about a roster construction paradigm that has been an utter failure -- both here and elsewhere.

At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. We've been building our team this way for three years. All three have either ended or are headed toward massive disappointment.

Outside of the one historical exception (2012 Kentucky), everyone else who has tried to build their roster the same way has experienced the exact same thing.

Relying on freshmen as heavily as we currently are is a good way to field an inconsistent, immature, physically soft basketball team.

We are not replicating the Kentucky model.

We have 2 one and dones this year.

We had 1 one and done last year.

We had 2 one and dones the year before.

Our roster construction is balanced. We have swung-and-missed on some of the transfers which I think has hurt us the most. Lohner, Grimes, and Nunn were devastating misses. We depended upon all three to be high-level rotation players.

Roster turnover will happen every year moving forward unless something is done to reign in the transfer portal. We need to do better with transfers moving forward.

Crawfoso1973 said:

---

We are not replicating the Kentucky model.

We have 2 one and dones this year.

We had 1 one and done last year.

We had 2 one and dones the year before.

Our roster construction is balanced. We have swung-and-missed on some of the transfers which I think has hurt us the most. Lohner, Grimes, and Nunn were devastating misses. We depended upon all three to be high-level rotation players.

Roster turnover will happen every year moving forward unless something is done to reign in the transfer portal. We need to do better with transfers moving forward.

---

We have had five freshmen average at least 20 minutes per game the last three years. From 2008 (our first tournament team) to 2021 (our national championship team) we had five such players total -- Perry Jones (2011), Quincy Miller (2012), Isaiah Austin (2013), Tristan Clark (2018) and Jared Butler (2019).

To suggest there hasn't been a paradigm shift in our roster composition is disingenuous. We're relying more on freshmen than we ever have. And if we're being honest, only Jeremy Sochan was equipped mentally and physically to lead a good Big 12 basketball team. The rest were solid, but immature players who frustrated as often as not and were/are relied on way more heavily than they were/are equipped to be.

• Kendall Brown was Perry Jones with a worse motor and less production.
• Keyonte George was horribly inefficient and a disaster on the defensive end.
• Ja'Kobe Walter is a better player/does more than George but is trending toward similar shooting percentages.
• Yves Missi is physically weak, offensively raw and often a liability on the defensive end.

All of those guys are talented. And other than George, whose game I hate(d), I enjoy/enjoyed watching them play. But none came to Baylor ready to do what we needed them to do accomplish the established goals for our program.

That's not their fault. That's true of almost all freshmen. That's why it's silly to build your rosters around them.

Agree with this.
You aren't winning this league or doing much of anything in March relying on freshman to carry you. And that's what we're doing. I will say this you can absolutely recruit 3-4 star multiple year guys and get instant return. The best freshman in the B12 this year so far imo resides in Ames and he wasn't a top 50 recruit.

You guys are acting like we're alone in the transfer portal era. Zoom out a bit and look around. There aren't any other teams around the country that are building rosters the way we did in 2020-21. Drew and Co. constructed a roster that could compete for a National Championship under the rules are policies in place at the time, and the rules and policies changed shortly thereafter.

The same people that constantly gripe about roster construction fail to mention that

1) the way we built the National Championship squad isn't going to work in the current landscape
2) no one else is building rosters the way they think we should be building ours.

If it were so easy to do, you'd at least see high level teams attempting it. There's clearly proof of concept in how we won. Why wouldn't other teams do it? Are they stupid?

I'm not sure about 1 and dones, vs. jr/sr level roster building in this crazy portal and NIL world. This new world may be why we are seeing such parity in college basketball- I'm not really sure.

But there is one thing I am really sure of and that is that we just don't play good defense and we don't rebound on the defensive end very well either - those are killers in a tough league with a bunch of evenly matched teams - I don't see us doing too much this year, unfortunately.

Mitch Henessey said:

---

You guys are acting like we're alone in the transfer portal era. Zoom out a bit and look around. There aren't any other teams around the country that are building rosters the way we did in 2020-21. Drew and Co. constructed a roster that could compete for a National Championship under the rules are policies in place at the time, and the rules and policies changed shortly thereafter.

The same people that constantly gripe about roster construction fail to mention that

1) the way we built the National Championship squad isn't going to work in the current landscape
2) no one else is building rosters the way they think we should be building ours.

If it were so easy to do, you'd at least see high level teams attempting it. There's clearly proof of concept in how we won. Why wouldn't other teams do it? Are they stupid?

---

Who's talking about national championships here? I don't know many Baylor fans who expect us to be winning national titles regularly.

But it's not an unfair expectation to think that our program should be reaching the Sweet 16 somewhat regularly, given where our recruiting is ranked and the seeds we've taken into the tournament.

There seems to be a perception here that we have an elite program. The truth is we don't and won't until we stop underperforming in March -- something we've done pretty regularly since 2015 outside of the 2021 season. Since 2015, we've been seeded fifth or better six times. Only two of those teams made it to the second weekend. We've lost in the second round three times with teams seeded third or better. Our fans routinely make fun of other programs that have had more -- and more consistent -- tournament success than we have.

The fact of the matter is Baylor men's basketball has been a massive underachiever since our title run. We've had the preseason No. 8, 5 and 20 teams, and unless something changes -- and in a hurry -- we're going to underperform bigly for the third straight year.

I love Scott Drew and will support him until he hangs up his whistle. But I'm done making excuses for our product.

scuttlebutt has it, drew actually got a little pissed post game.

he had planned some s'mores-based team bonding celebration.

oops.

he held up the bag of marshmallows and yelled: 'this is how you're playing right now.'

then kinda lost it and stomped the boxes of graham crackers until they were dust, grabbed the bundle of sticks he has been collecting and stormed off - after making a quick turn and grabbing the 2 bags of chocolate bars.

D!

- KKM

he cranked the speakers to 11 and blared Sandi Patty on an endless loop for 2 hrs.

needless to say, the locker room cleared out pretty quickly.
---

someone's crying Lord
Baylor Fans
someone's crying Lord
Baylor Fans

someone's crying Lord
Baylor Fans
Oh Lord
Not this **** again.......

- LFS

Go Bears!

Crawfoso1973 said:

---

Weird timing for the tired one-and-done debate / discussion.

Walter and Missi were arguably our 2 best players this afternoon. We need more like them.

---

LOL! Walter went 2 of 12 from the field, I'll take the "arguably".

WA Jim said:

---

I'm not sure about 1 and dones, vs. jr/sr level roster building in this crazy portal and NIL world. This new world may be why we are seeing such parity in college basketball- I'm not really sure.

But there is one thing I am really sure of and that is that we just don't play good defense and we don't rebound on the defensive end very well either - those are killers in a tough league with a bunch of evenly matched teams - I don't see us doing too much this year, unfortunately.

---

The thing that many Baylor fans don't want to acknowledge is that we're baby **** soft. Have been for two years now.

You can't win in a physical, meat grinder of a league being as physically weak and defensively deficient as we've been the last couple of seasons. And many here won't want to admit it, but our freshmen have been a major contributor to that trend.