Gameday Thread: #15 Baylor (14-4; 3-2) vs TCU (14-5; 3-3)

I agree. Imagine this team with a reliable secondary playmaker who can score off ball and lock down defensively (Nunn was supposed to be).

Add in a tough forward who can defend multiple positions, pound the glass, and finish buckets inside of 10 feet (healthy Jon / forward we are missing).

Hit just 75% on those and this team wins the conference. Still think we need a defensive teacher brought on staff as it just isn't resonating for whatever reason. But I agree the transfer whiffs have hurt badly.

EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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I'll tell VJ he's not needed next year.

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If what I saw of the team last night is their best effort, don't just tell…show him and the rest the door.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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You guys are acting like we're alone in the transfer portal era. Zoom out a bit and look around. There aren't any other teams around the country that are building rosters the way we did in 2020-21. Drew and Co. constructed a roster that could compete for a National Championship under the rules are policies in place at the time, and the rules and policies changed shortly thereafter.

The same people that constantly gripe about roster construction fail to mention that

1) the way we built the National Championship squad isn't going to work in the current landscape
2) no one else is building rosters the way they think we should be building ours.

If it were so easy to do, you'd at least see high level teams attempting it. There's clearly proof of concept in how we won. Why wouldn't other teams do it? Are they stupid?

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Who's talking about national championships here? I don't know many Baylor fans who expect us to be winning national titles regularly.

But it's not an unfair expectation to think that our program should be reaching the Sweet 16 somewhat regularly, given where our recruiting is ranked and the seeds we've taken into the tournament.

There seems to be a perception here that we have an elite program. The truth is we don't and won't until we stop underperforming in March -- something we've done pretty regularly since 2015 outside of the 2021 season. Since 2015, we've been seeded fifth or better six times. Only two of those teams made it to the second weekend. We've lost in the second round three times with teams seeded third or better. Our fans routinely make fun of other programs that have had more -- and more consistent -- tournament success than we have.

The fact of the matter is Baylor men's basketball has been a massive underachiever since our title run. We've had the preseason No. 8, 5 and 20 teams, and unless something changes -- and in a hurry -- we're going to underperform bigly for the third straight year.

I love Scott Drew and will support him until he hangs up his whistle. But I'm done making excuses for our product.

---

You, of all people, I would expect a bit of perspective from.

To be clear, I didn't say anything about us winning National Championships regularly. If that's what you got from what I wrote, you need to put on your glasses and reread my post. I said that the way you think we should be building rosters is not a way any team in the country is intentionally constructing their teams right now.

To your points about underachieving, which I agree, we have:

2022 - we were arguably the best team in the country before injuries decimated us. The game we played against an eventual Final Four team in Villanova, in the Ferrell Center was legitimately terrifying, how hard we locked down on defense. To wit: Tchamwa Tchatchoua, best post defender and QB of our defense, lost for the year with a career altering injury. LJ Cryer, our leading scorer and best perimeter shooter, lost for the majority of conference season, and eventually the tourney and NCAAs with foot injuries in both feet. James Akinjo, our PG and primary ball handler, injured late in conference play, and was never the same after that. If you want to chalk that up to "roster construction" just because 2 guys from that team went to the Association after the season ended, I don't know what to tell ya.

2023 - that team had legitimate issues. No true PG, no perimeter ballstoppers, no post players to direct the defense. If you want to blame it on roster construction, fine. What I saw was a team that thought they'd have a second year out of Jeremy Sochan (literally no one in the country thought he would be a one-and-done even halfway though the 21-22 season), didn't have a low post defender like EJ that could elevate everyone else's game, and we straight up missed on Caleb Lohner as a wing replacement/glue guy. To say that's a failure because we signed Keyonte George, who must have spit in your kid's drink at Meet the Bears or something, given the level of hate you extend towards him, is a little over the top

2024 - I think this is actually a well-constructed roster, in theory. We do, however, have a lot of guys who never played together before this year (Bridges is the only returning starter), and the level of basketball IQ is seriously lacking. We make more dumb mistakes than any Baylor team I can remember. Some is due to youth (see: Missi, Yves), some is due to thinking you're something you're not (see: Nunn, Jayden), and some is due to inexplicable brain farts (see: Dennis, RayJ). I honestly would not be shocked to see this team catch fire in late February and be a darkhorse Final Four threat.

I see this and see teams with distinct, totally different, fatal flaws. Each issue the past three years has been/could be enough to torpedo the season, but I don't see it as a sign of institutional rot, or falling in love with the wrong type of player. That's fine if you do. We'll just agree to disagree.

BUGWBBear said:

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EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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I'll tell VJ he's not needed next year.

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If what I saw of the team last night is their best effort, don't just tell…show him and the rest the door.

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We fought our heart out in 3 overtimes. We are vastly improved defensively since the start of conference play. Losing is frustrating, but there is absolutely no lack of effort or quit in this team.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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BUGWBBear said:

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EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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I'll tell VJ he's not needed next year.

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If what I saw of the team last night is their best effort, don't just tell…show him and the rest the door.

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We fought our heart out in 3 overtimes. We are vastly improved defensively since the start of conference play. Losing is frustrating, but there is absolutely no lack of effort or quit in this team.

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We're not vastly improved defensively. Our defense the last two games has been absolutely awful. Our defense looked better to start conference play because we played bad offensive teams in Oklahoma State, Cincinnati and Kansas State. Once we started playing competent offensive teams again, we went right back to the turnstile defense we saw at the end of nonconference play.

I agree this team plays hard. But it has legitimate, ceiling-lowering issues that you don't seem to want to acknowledge for some reason.

We looked improved defensively against 2 of the weakest offenses in this conference KSU and Cincy
. Tx and TCU lit us up. That's likely to continue. We're not near as improved defensively as some of you seem to think we are. Walter and Missi are bad defenders. RayJ, Bridges, Nunn are all average to slightly below average defenders. We have no defensive stoppers and it's obvious in these tight games

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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You guys are acting like we're alone in the transfer portal era. Zoom out a bit and look around. There aren't any other teams around the country that are building rosters the way we did in 2020-21. Drew and Co. constructed a roster that could compete for a National Championship under the rules are policies in place at the time, and the rules and policies changed shortly thereafter.

The same people that constantly gripe about roster construction fail to mention that

1) the way we built the National Championship squad isn't going to work in the current landscape
2) no one else is building rosters the way they think we should be building ours.

If it were so easy to do, you'd at least see high level teams attempting it. There's clearly proof of concept in how we won. Why wouldn't other teams do it? Are they stupid?

---

Who's talking about national championships here? I don't know many Baylor fans who expect us to be winning national titles regularly.

But it's not an unfair expectation to think that our program should be reaching the Sweet 16 somewhat regularly, given where our recruiting is ranked and the seeds we've taken into the tournament.

There seems to be a perception here that we have an elite program. The truth is we don't and won't until we stop underperforming in March -- something we've done pretty regularly since 2015 outside of the 2021 season. Since 2015, we've been seeded fifth or better six times. Only two of those teams made it to the second weekend. We've lost in the second round three times with teams seeded third or better. Our fans routinely make fun of other programs that have had more -- and more consistent -- tournament success than we have.

The fact of the matter is Baylor men's basketball has been a massive underachiever since our title run. We've had the preseason No. 8, 5 and 20 teams, and unless something changes -- and in a hurry -- we're going to underperform bigly for the third straight year.

I love Scott Drew and will support him until he hangs up his whistle. But I'm done making excuses for our product.

---

You, of all people, I would expect a bit of perspective from.

To be clear, I didn't say anything about us winning National Championships regularly. If that's what you got from what I wrote, you need to put on your glasses and reread my post. I said that the way you think we should be building rosters is not a way any team in the country is intentionally constructing their teams right now.

To your points about underachieving, which I agree, we have:

2022 - we were arguably the best team in the country before injuries decimated us. The game we played against an eventual Final Four team in Villanova, in the Ferrell Center was legitimately terrifying, how hard we locked down on defense. To wit: Tchamwa Tchatchoua, best post defender and QB of our defense, lost for the year with a career altering injury. LJ Cryer, our leading scorer and best perimeter shooter, lost for the majority of conference season, and eventually the tourney and NCAAs with foot injuries in both feet. James Akinjo, our PG and primary ball handler, injured late in conference play, and was never the same after that. If you want to chalk that up to "roster construction" just because 2 guys from that team went to the Association after the season ended, I don't know what to tell ya.

2023 - that team had legitimate issues. No true PG, no perimeter ballstoppers, no post players to direct the defense. If you want to blame it on roster construction, fine. What I saw was a team that thought they'd have a second year out of Jeremy Sochan (literally no one in the country thought he would be a one-and-done even halfway though the 21-22 season), didn't have a low post defender like EJ that could elevate everyone else's game, and we straight up missed on Caleb Lohner as a wing replacement/glue guy. To say that's a failure because we signed Keyonte George, who must have spit in your kid's drink at Meet the Bears or something, given the level of hate you extend towards him, is a little over the top

2024 - I think this is actually a well-constructed roster, in theory. We do, however, have a lot of guys who never played together before this year (Bridges is the only returning starter), and the level of basketball IQ is seriously lacking. We make more dumb mistakes than any Baylor team I can remember. Some is due to youth (see: Missi, Yves), some is due to thinking you're something you're not (see: Nunn, Jayden), and some is due to inexplicable brain farts (see: Dennis, RayJ). I honestly would not be shocked to see this team catch fire in late February and be a darkhorse Final Four threat.

I see this and see teams with distinct, totally different, fatal flaws. Each issue the past three years has been/could be enough to torpedo the season, but I don't see it as a sign of institutional rot, or falling in love with the wrong type of player. That's fine if you do. We'll just agree to disagree.

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In the transfer portal era, the EJ injury and Sochan departure aren't valid excuses for poor roster construction after the fact. Every team has holes to fill every offseason, and it's never been easier to fill them with talented/experienced players.

I agree the EJ injury destroyed any hope we had of winning anything in 2022. I don't think the Cryer injury was as big of a deal, and I think Akinjo just reverted to his career mean after playing way above his head to start to that season. But losing EJ was a legitimate season-altering killer.

But EJ was injured two and a half years ago. He hasn't been a viable rotation option since then. The fact that people are still using that as an excuse two offseasons later for why our frontcourt is deeply flawed is kind of a joke.

The bottom line is I'm tired of excuses in general. No team in our conference was starting from a better place than we were after 2021, and several have passed us. We can debate the reasons, but we can't debate that it has happened. We're a mid-tier Big 12 program right now making excuses for why we can't beat teams with fewer advantages than we have. I'm tired of it.

Cove Dawg said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Weird timing for the tired one-and-done debate / discussion.

Walter and Missi were arguably our 2 best players this afternoon. We need more like them.

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LOL! Walter went 2 of 12 from the field, I'll take the "arguably".

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No. Walter stunk today and there are always defensive problems with one and done players. Always. One and done equals losing.

IowaBear said:

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We looked improved defensively against 2 of the weakest offenses in this conference KSU and Cincy
. Tx and TCU lit us up. That's likely to continue. We're not near as improved defensively as some of you seem to think we are. Walter and Missi are bad defenders. RayJ, Bridges, Nunn are all average to slightly below average defenders. We have no defensive stoppers and it's obvious in these tight games

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RayJ's on-ball defense was really good yesterday. The problem is we switch him off the guard every damn possession and leave those duties to Missi, who can't handle them at all, or Josh, who does a better job but is still at a major disadvantage trying to guard a quick, attacking guard.

We have some bad individual defenders playing in a bad, ill-fitting scheme. It's not a good combination.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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BUGWBBear said:

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EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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I'll tell VJ he's not needed next year.

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If what I saw of the team last night is their best effort, don't just tell…show him and the rest the door.

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We fought our heart out in 3 overtimes. We are vastly improved defensively since the start of conference play. Losing is frustrating, but there is absolutely no lack of effort or quit in this team.

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I agree that the team put forth effort. Few dispute that. But effort doesn't translate to good defense. Perhaps it would if we had the right roster construction and more focus from Drew on that side of the ball. But we don't. Inability to stop anyone will be our downfall this year and until Drew stops his over reliance on one year players.

Guitarbiscuit said:

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Cove Dawg said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Weird timing for the tired one-and-done debate / discussion.

Walter and Missi were arguably our 2 best players this afternoon. We need more like them.

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LOL! Walter went 2 of 12 from the field, I'll take the "arguably".

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No. Walter stunk today and there are always defensive problems with one and done players. Always. One and done equals losing.

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Kendall Brown and Jeremy Sochan were both good defenders, but I'd agree with the generality that most freshmen are poor on that end of the floor.

Everyone raved about Walter's defense coming in and about Missi's impact as a rim protector. As usual, both were vastly overstated. Walter is a below average Big 12 defender and Missi spends half his time chasing guys to the rim and whiffing on late block attempts, leaving us vulnerable to the offensive rebound.

We've become a program high on hype and low on goods. It makes for consistently frustrating viewing.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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You guys are acting like we're alone in the transfer portal era. Zoom out a bit and look around. There aren't any other teams around the country that are building rosters the way we did in 2020-21. Drew and Co. constructed a roster that could compete for a National Championship under the rules are policies in place at the time, and the rules and policies changed shortly thereafter.

The same people that constantly gripe about roster construction fail to mention that

1) the way we built the National Championship squad isn't going to work in the current landscape
2) no one else is building rosters the way they think we should be building ours.

If it were so easy to do, you'd at least see high level teams attempting it. There's clearly proof of concept in how we won. Why wouldn't other teams do it? Are they stupid?

---

Who's talking about national championships here? I don't know many Baylor fans who expect us to be winning national titles regularly.

But it's not an unfair expectation to think that our program should be reaching the Sweet 16 somewhat regularly, given where our recruiting is ranked and the seeds we've taken into the tournament.

There seems to be a perception here that we have an elite program. The truth is we don't and won't until we stop underperforming in March -- something we've done pretty regularly since 2015 outside of the 2021 season. Since 2015, we've been seeded fifth or better six times. Only two of those teams made it to the second weekend. We've lost in the second round three times with teams seeded third or better. Our fans routinely make fun of other programs that have had more -- and more consistent -- tournament success than we have.

The fact of the matter is Baylor men's basketball has been a massive underachiever since our title run. We've had the preseason No. 8, 5 and 20 teams, and unless something changes -- and in a hurry -- we're going to underperform bigly for the third straight year.

I love Scott Drew and will support him until he hangs up his whistle. But I'm done making excuses for our product.

---

You, of all people, I would expect a bit of perspective from.

To be clear, I didn't say anything about us winning National Championships regularly. If that's what you got from what I wrote, you need to put on your glasses and reread my post. I said that the way you think we should be building rosters is not a way any team in the country is intentionally constructing their teams right now.

To your points about underachieving, which I agree, we have:

2022 - we were arguably the best team in the country before injuries decimated us. The game we played against an eventual Final Four team in Villanova, in the Ferrell Center was legitimately terrifying, how hard we locked down on defense. To wit: Tchamwa Tchatchoua, best post defender and QB of our defense, lost for the year with a career altering injury. LJ Cryer, our leading scorer and best perimeter shooter, lost for the majority of conference season, and eventually the tourney and NCAAs with foot injuries in both feet. James Akinjo, our PG and primary ball handler, injured late in conference play, and was never the same after that. If you want to chalk that up to "roster construction" just because 2 guys from that team went to the Association after the season ended, I don't know what to tell ya.

2023 - that team had legitimate issues. No true PG, no perimeter ballstoppers, no post players to direct the defense. If you want to blame it on roster construction, fine. What I saw was a team that thought they'd have a second year out of Jeremy Sochan (literally no one in the country thought he would be a one-and-done even halfway though the 21-22 season), didn't have a low post defender like EJ that could elevate everyone else's game, and we straight up missed on Caleb Lohner as a wing replacement/glue guy. To say that's a failure because we signed Keyonte George, who must have spit in your kid's drink at Meet the Bears or something, given the level of hate you extend towards him, is a little over the top

2024 - I think this is actually a well-constructed roster, in theory. We do, however, have a lot of guys who never played together before this year (Bridges is the only returning starter), and the level of basketball IQ is seriously lacking. We make more dumb mistakes than any Baylor team I can remember. Some is due to youth (see: Missi, Yves), some is due to thinking you're something you're not (see: Nunn, Jayden), and some is due to inexplicable brain farts (see: Dennis, RayJ). I honestly would not be shocked to see this team catch fire in late February and be a darkhorse Final Four threat.

I see this and see teams with distinct, totally different, fatal flaws. Each issue the past three years has been/could be enough to torpedo the season, but I don't see it as a sign of institutional rot, or falling in love with the wrong type of player. That's fine if you do. We'll just agree to disagree.

---

In the transfer portal era, the EJ injury and Sochan departure aren't valid excuses for poor roster construction after the fact. Every team has holes to fill every offseason, and it's never been easier to fill them with talented/experienced players.

I agree the EJ injury destroyed any hope we had of winning anything in 2022. I don't think the Cryer injury was as big of a deal, and I think Akinjo just reverted to his career mean after playing way above his head to start to that season. But losing EJ was a legitimate season-altering killer.

But EJ was injured two and a half years ago. He hasn't been a viable rotation option since then. The fact that people are still using that as an excuse two offseasons later for why our frontcourt is deeply flawed is kind of a joke.

The bottom line is I'm tired of excuses in general. No team in our conference was starting from a better place than we were after 2021, and several have passed us. We can debate the reasons, but we can't debate that it has happened. We're a mid-tier Big 12 program right now making excuses for why we can't beat teams with fewer advantages than we have. I'm tired of it.

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You don't think losing our leading scorer was that big of a deal? And a guy gets placed in the best position he's been in in his entire career (Akinjo), plays great for 2/3 of the season, gets injured, and plays poorly after that, and you think it's "reverting to the mean?" These are some serious mental gymnastics you're putting yourself through, my guy.

I have not seen one person blame EJ getting injured as the reason our post defense is lacking. Mostly people saying it's unfortunate we'll never see him at the level he was before, because that EJ was an NBA player. For the record, Tchamwa Tchatchoua's injury was less than two years ago. Feb 12, 2022.

Just like you're tired of excuses, many of us are tired of the consistent kvetching after every loss about how one-and-dones are ruining our program. You've made your point. I think it's misguided, but that's my opinion.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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You guys are acting like we're alone in the transfer portal era. Zoom out a bit and look around. There aren't any other teams around the country that are building rosters the way we did in 2020-21. Drew and Co. constructed a roster that could compete for a National Championship under the rules are policies in place at the time, and the rules and policies changed shortly thereafter.

The same people that constantly gripe about roster construction fail to mention that

1) the way we built the National Championship squad isn't going to work in the current landscape
2) no one else is building rosters the way they think we should be building ours.

If it were so easy to do, you'd at least see high level teams attempting it. There's clearly proof of concept in how we won. Why wouldn't other teams do it? Are they stupid?

---

Who's talking about national championships here? I don't know many Baylor fans who expect us to be winning national titles regularly.

But it's not an unfair expectation to think that our program should be reaching the Sweet 16 somewhat regularly, given where our recruiting is ranked and the seeds we've taken into the tournament.

There seems to be a perception here that we have an elite program. The truth is we don't and won't until we stop underperforming in March -- something we've done pretty regularly since 2015 outside of the 2021 season. Since 2015, we've been seeded fifth or better six times. Only two of those teams made it to the second weekend. We've lost in the second round three times with teams seeded third or better. Our fans routinely make fun of other programs that have had more -- and more consistent -- tournament success than we have.

The fact of the matter is Baylor men's basketball has been a massive underachiever since our title run. We've had the preseason No. 8, 5 and 20 teams, and unless something changes -- and in a hurry -- we're going to underperform bigly for the third straight year.

I love Scott Drew and will support him until he hangs up his whistle. But I'm done making excuses for our product.

---

You, of all people, I would expect a bit of perspective from.

To be clear, I didn't say anything about us winning National Championships regularly. If that's what you got from what I wrote, you need to put on your glasses and reread my post. I said that the way you think we should be building rosters is not a way any team in the country is intentionally constructing their teams right now.

To your points about underachieving, which I agree, we have:

2022 - we were arguably the best team in the country before injuries decimated us. The game we played against an eventual Final Four team in Villanova, in the Ferrell Center was legitimately terrifying, how hard we locked down on defense. To wit: Tchamwa Tchatchoua, best post defender and QB of our defense, lost for the year with a career altering injury. LJ Cryer, our leading scorer and best perimeter shooter, lost for the majority of conference season, and eventually the tourney and NCAAs with foot injuries in both feet. James Akinjo, our PG and primary ball handler, injured late in conference play, and was never the same after that. If you want to chalk that up to "roster construction" just because 2 guys from that team went to the Association after the season ended, I don't know what to tell ya.

2023 - that team had legitimate issues. No true PG, no perimeter ballstoppers, no post players to direct the defense. If you want to blame it on roster construction, fine. What I saw was a team that thought they'd have a second year out of Jeremy Sochan (literally no one in the country thought he would be a one-and-done even halfway though the 21-22 season), didn't have a low post defender like EJ that could elevate everyone else's game, and we straight up missed on Caleb Lohner as a wing replacement/glue guy. To say that's a failure because we signed Keyonte George, who must have spit in your kid's drink at Meet the Bears or something, given the level of hate you extend towards him, is a little over the top

2024 - I think this is actually a well-constructed roster, in theory. We do, however, have a lot of guys who never played together before this year (Bridges is the only returning starter), and the level of basketball IQ is seriously lacking. We make more dumb mistakes than any Baylor team I can remember. Some is due to youth (see: Missi, Yves), some is due to thinking you're something you're not (see: Nunn, Jayden), and some is due to inexplicable brain farts (see: Dennis, RayJ). I honestly would not be shocked to see this team catch fire in late February and be a darkhorse Final Four threat.

I see this and see teams with distinct, totally different, fatal flaws. Each issue the past three years has been/could be enough to torpedo the season, but I don't see it as a sign of institutional rot, or falling in love with the wrong type of player. That's fine if you do. We'll just agree to disagree.

---

In the transfer portal era, the EJ injury and Sochan departure aren't valid excuses for poor roster construction after the fact. Every team has holes to fill every offseason, and it's never been easier to fill them with talented/experienced players.

I agree the EJ injury destroyed any hope we had of winning anything in 2022. I don't think the Cryer injury was as big of a deal, and I think Akinjo just reverted to his career mean after playing way above his head to start to that season. But losing EJ was a legitimate season-altering killer.

But EJ was injured two and a half years ago. He hasn't been a viable rotation option since then. The fact that people are still using that as an excuse two offseasons later for why our frontcourt is deeply flawed is kind of a joke.

The bottom line is I'm tired of excuses in general. No team in our conference was starting from a better place than we were after 2021, and several have passed us. We can debate the reasons, but we can't debate that it has happened. We're a mid-tier Big 12 program right now making excuses for why we can't beat teams with fewer advantages than we have. I'm tired of it.

---

You don't think losing our leading scorer was that big of a deal? And a guy gets placed in the best position he's been in in his entire career (Akinjo), plays great for 2/3 of the season, gets injured, and plays poorly after that, and you think it's "reverting to the mean?" These are some serious mental gymnastics you're putting yourself through, my guy.

I have not seen one person blame EJ getting injured as the reason our post defense is lacking. Mostly people saying it's unfortunate we'll never see him at the level he was before, because that EJ was an NBA player. For the record, Tchamwa Tchatchoua's injury was less than two years ago. Feb 12, 2022.

Just like you're tired of excuses, many of us are tired of the consistent kvetching after every loss about how one-and-dones are ruining our program. You've made your point. I think it's misguided, but that's my opinion.

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I think -- and I said at the time -- that Cryer and Flagler were redundant parts on that team, which had enough frontcourt talent/depth to go with a two-guard lineup. We were better with both of them because two snipers from the wing are better than one, but Cryer's injury wasn't a season-killer. He's always been a one-trick pony, and replacing offense has never been a particularly significant issue for Drew.

Losing Cryer also increased Sochan's role, which made us a better team IMO. Sochan was the best/most complete player on that team, and it wasn't particularly close. The Cryer injury right-sized his minutes/impact.

And Akinjo was not great for two-thirds of the year. That's some serious revisionist history. He was great basically through nonconference play -- much of that against sub-standard competition. He was a .380/.280/.830 shooter in 16 conference games that season. In other words, the exact same inefficient volume scorer he always was.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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BUGWBBear said:

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EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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I'll tell VJ he's not needed next year.

---

If what I saw of the team last night is their best effort, don't just tell…show him and the rest the door.

---

We fought our heart out in 3 overtimes. We are vastly improved defensively since the start of conference play. Losing is frustrating, but there is absolutely no lack of effort or quit in this team.

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Inability to close in 3 straight games tells me otherwise. This should never have gone to OT, period, had they been playing their best.

You must know the game. I think the assessment of those 3 teams is exactly right.

The 2022 team was the best team in the country. A taped together team literally won the conference alongside the eventual national champion. They destroyed a final four Villanova team that grinded out the Houston team some posters here like. They went to OT with what was in March the best team in the country (Unc).

Don't forget Love (who looked just as good as he does right now) was lost for the year in preseason. That's the breaks but that was the title favorite. A back to back changes everything

I agree last year was a fatally flawed roster unfortunately. I still don't feel that way about this years group. I still think this group is talented and "could" be really good. I still think it's the most talented group in the conference (Iowa st has underrated talent though). I agree with what you said there. I'm just losing a little belief in this staff to get that missing something going. It's fine if others disagree on that part.

Something is missing with cohesion, toughness, role. I know Drew believes in "player led" but with less continuity I hope they push the issue a bit. This team needs a bit coach directed leaders too.

Love is tough but low key. Bridges even more low key. Dennis is brand new to the program. So while a vet, he isn't just going to come in and tell everyone what's up. Jon is respected but when you can't be out there on the floor with the team, it's just not the same.

Quinton said:

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You must know the game. I think the assessment of those 3 teams is exactly right.

The 2022 team was the best team in the country. A taped together team literally won the conference alongside the eventual national champion. They destroyed a final four Villanova team that grinded out the Houston team some posters here like. They went to OT with what was in March the best team in the country (Unc).

Don't forget Love (who looked just as good as he does right now) was lost for the year in preseason. That's the breaks but that was the title favorite. A back to back changes everything

I agree last year was a fatally flawed roster unfortunately. I still don't feel that way about this years group. I still think this group is talented and "could" be really good. I still think it's the most talented group in the conference (Iowa st has underrated talent though). I agree with what you said there. I'm just losing a little belief in this staff to get that missing something going. It's fine if others disagree on that part.

Something is missing with cohesion, toughness, role. I know Drew believes in "player led" but with less continuity I hope they push the issue a bit. This team needs a bit coach directed leaders too.

Love is tough but low key. Bridges even more low key. Dennis is brand new to the program. So while a vet, he isn't just going to come in and tell everyone what's up. Jon is respected but when you can't be out there on the floor with the team, it's just not the same.

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Other than having two freshmen in our starting lineup and nothing behind Bridges at the power forward position, I don't think this roster is fatally flawed. I've just come to the conclusion that this team isn't as deep or good as I had hoped it would be.

I think I overestimated both its ceiling and floor. I think we'll make the tournament as a 7-10 seed and make another early-round exit and be in the exact same situation next offseason we were this past one.

That's not the end of the world, but it is a Groundhog Day cycle I'm frankly getting tired of repeating.

Those on this site and elsewhere will hype the **** out of next year's players and team and we'll do this all over again in 2024-25, while our conference mates continue to beat us with less "talent" but tougher and more complete teams.

It's clear: This team is not as deep or good as many thought/hoped early on. It's young and practically every underclassmen needs at least another year developing at this level. But the money will take them away. MBB will make the 2024 tournament, obviously by virtue of being in the BigXII, but make another early-round exit. Making the S16 is a stretch aspiration.

Here's a truly sobering thought: With the (wide) open portal and (limitless) NIL now, Drew's approach/program just may no longer be as successful/impactful on the court as it was built to be. Baylor may never see a Final 4 again.

Great coach, great career, great story at Baylor MBB. BUT if Baylor simply is not going to pay for the top players out there there's not much Drew can do but keep cashing in on the JOY message.

Sic'em

bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Weird timing for the tired one-and-done debate / discussion.

Walter and Missi were arguably our 2 best players this afternoon. We need more like them.

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Outside of one 3-pointer at the end of regulation and a couple of clutch free throws, Walter was a disaster today. I'm not sure what game you were watching.

But it's not about those players individually. It's about making commitments to players who are neither good or mature enough to lead a team to success in conference and tournament play.

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Walter's shooting has been off during conference, but he is playing tough per usual, getting to the free throw line, and making energy plays that don't show up on the boxscore. He was far from a disaster today.

Maybe it's just me but I don't think shunning talented players is a good idea. In the transfer portal era, it's not realistic to recruit players and expect them to stick around and develop over a 3 or 4 year period (unless they are inferior talent-wise in which case I don't think would be a good strategy either).

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He was dreadful on both ends in the first half. We didn't make our run until he was pulled. And he was only slightly better in the second half.

He finally decided to make some contribution to the game after hitting the game-tying 3 at the end of regulation, and played pretty well in the OT periods.

But I would almost guarantee he had a negative plus/minus today. We were a better team with him off the floor in regulation.

And every good team in the Big 12 currently is proving your last paragraph wrong. Those teams are using the transfer portal, too, but all of them have multi-year program guys leading them right now.

This idea that we can't develop players because it's impossible in modern college basketball is a copout.

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Walter did everything well but shoot the ball. He made free throws, which is more than can be said for Bridges and Nunn who were a combined 2-7 from the line.

ZachTay said:

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It's clear: This team is not as deep or good as many thought/hoped early on. It's young and practically every underclassmen needs at least another year developing at this level. But the money will take them away. MBB will make the 2024 tournament, obviously by virtue of being in the BigXII, but make another early-round exit. Making the S16 is a stretch aspiration.

Here's a truly sobering thought: With the (wide) open portal and (limitless) NIL now, Drew's approach/program just may no longer be as successful/impactful on the court as it was built to be. Baylor may never see a Final 4 again.

Great coach, great career, great story at Baylor MBB. BUT if Baylor simply is not going to pay for the top players out there there's not much Drew can do but keep cashing in on the JOY message.

Sic'em

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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You must know the game. I think the assessment of those 3 teams is exactly right.

The 2022 team was the best team in the country. A taped together team literally won the conference alongside the eventual national champion. They destroyed a final four Villanova team that grinded out the Houston team some posters here like. They went to OT with what was in March the best team in the country (Unc).

Don't forget Love (who looked just as good as he does right now) was lost for the year in preseason. That's the breaks but that was the title favorite. A back to back changes everything

I agree last year was a fatally flawed roster unfortunately. I still don't feel that way about this years group. I still think this group is talented and "could" be really good. I still think it's the most talented group in the conference (Iowa st has underrated talent though). I agree with what you said there. I'm just losing a little belief in this staff to get that missing something going. It's fine if others disagree on that part.

Something is missing with cohesion, toughness, role. I know Drew believes in "player led" but with less continuity I hope they push the issue a bit. This team needs a bit coach directed leaders too.

Love is tough but low key. Bridges even more low key. Dennis is brand new to the program. So while a vet, he isn't just going to come in and tell everyone what's up. Jon is respected but when you can't be out there on the floor with the team, it's just not the same.

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Other than having two freshmen in our starting lineup and nothing behind Bridges at the power forward position, I don't think this roster is fatally flawed. I've just come to the conclusion that this team isn't as deep or good as I had hoped it would be.

I think I overestimated both its ceiling and floor. I think we'll make the tournament as a 7-10 seed and make another early-round exit and be in the exact same situation next offseason we were this past one.

That's not the end of the world, but it is a Groundhog Day cycle I'm frankly getting tired of repeating.

Those on this site and elsewhere will hype the **** out of next year's players and team and we'll do this all over again in 2024-25, while our conference mates continue to beat us with less "talent" but tougher and more complete teams.

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Ok, man.

Let's see, we can't play defense, can't make fts, can't make 3s but we can turn the ball over ,, how much are paying these guys? They fold faster than a Biden rally,,

Crawfoso1973 said:

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BearTruth13 said:

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Why I've never liked the one and done approach. Our best teams ever were 2010 and the 2020/2021 squads.

Senior laden teams with talented but not highly recruited talent.

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The transfer portal changed the landscape of basketball. Recruiting strategy had to change. We need to stop comparing our current teams to our Natty team.

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The 2022 team was comparable to the Natty Team and they had 2 one and done players. They also had 6 NBA level players just like Natty team. An NBA level player is a player invited to an NBA pre-season camp. Some are drafted and some are not. This team only has 4 such players and 2 are freshman and one is a Sophomore. They could still win it all, just like 30 other teams which is just like last year.

BUCANDOIT82 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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BearTruth13 said:

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Why I've never liked the one and done approach. Our best teams ever were 2010 and the 2020/2021 squads.

Senior laden teams with talented but not highly recruited talent.

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The transfer portal changed the landscape of basketball. Recruiting strategy had to change. We need to stop comparing our current teams to our Natty team.

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The 2022 team was comparable to the Natty Team and they had 2 one and done players. They also had 6 NBA level players just like Natty team. An NBA level player is a player invited to an NBA pre-season camp. Some are drafted and some are not. This team only has 4 such players and 2 are freshman and one is a Sophomore. They could still win it all, just like 30 other teams which is just like last year.

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Your definition of NBA level is nonsense. An NBA level player is a player who makes it onto an NBA roster.

The title team had two NBA players -- both of them deep bench guys. And the 2022 team had two NBA players -- one good, one who likely will be out of the league in the next year or two.

You're insistence on overstating your case -- and our team's talent -- makes your posts difficult to take seriously.

Both those teams were the best team in the country. One suffered injuries and one didn't. They had more talent than this team is all I'm saying.

Guitarbiscuit said:

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Cove Dawg said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Weird timing for the tired one-and-done debate / discussion.

Walter and Missi were arguably our 2 best players this afternoon. We need more like them.

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LOL! Walter went 2 of 12 from the field, I'll take the "arguably".

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No. Walter stunk today and there are always defensive problems with one and done players. Always. One and done equals losing.

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Would you rather bring in mediocre transfers like Nunn or Bonner every year, or talented one-and-dones like Walter or Edgecombe? Serious question. Because every year the roster will turn over due to the transfer portal. We will have to reload the roster every year with freshmen or transfers. We don't exist in 2019 anymore.

You're acting like 2-3 year players don't exist that's just a flat out lie… I'll use ISU as an example For you Tamin Lipsey, Milan Momcilovic guys who were recruited as 2-3 year guys. Btw Milan is the best freshman in this conference right now and he was rated outside the top 75. Lipsey is one of the better PGs in this league and was also not a 5 star. This belief you have that we can only recruit 1 and dones is ******ed and inaccurate

IowaBear said:

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You're acting like 2-3 year players don't exist that's just a flat out lie… I'll use ISU as an example For you Tamin Lipsey, Milan Momcilovic guys who were recruited as 2-3 year guys. Btw Milan is the best freshman in this conference right now and he was rated outside the top 75. Lipsey is one of the better PGs in this league and was also not a 5 star. This belief you have that we can only recruit 1 and dones is ******ed and inaccurate

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We are not *only* recruiting one-and-dones. We have 2 this year. Exactly 2.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Guitarbiscuit said:

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Cove Dawg said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Weird timing for the tired one-and-done debate / discussion.

Walter and Missi were arguably our 2 best players this afternoon. We need more like them.

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LOL! Walter went 2 of 12 from the field, I'll take the "arguably".

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No. Walter stunk today and there are always defensive problems with one and done players. Always. One and done equals losing.

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Would you rather bring in mediocre transfers like Nunn or Bonner every year, or talented one-and-dones like Walter or Edgecombe? Serious question. Because every year the roster will turn over due to the transfer portal. We will have to reload the roster every year with freshmen or transfers. We don't exist in 2019 anymore.

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This is a false choice. There are many other options between mediocre transfers and one-and-done freshmen.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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IowaBear said:

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You're acting like 2-3 year players don't exist that's just a flat out lie… I'll use ISU as an example For you Tamin Lipsey, Milan Momcilovic guys who were recruited as 2-3 year guys. Btw Milan is the best freshman in this conference right now and he was rated outside the top 75. Lipsey is one of the better PGs in this league and was also not a 5 star. This belief you have that we can only recruit 1 and dones is ******ed and inaccurate

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We are not *only* recruiting one-and-dones. We have 2 this year. Exactly 2.

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We're not only *only* recruiting one-and-dones. Just five of our last eight freshmen, which means we're developing almost nobody.

One non one-and-done a year leaves you chasing transfers and forces you to reach on guys like Bonner, Lohner and Nunn to fill holes when you whiff on your top targets.

Langston is the only one who's been developed and he's our 2nd best player.. that's not a coincidence. This team is its best version when they recruit and develop guys and mesh them with transfer portal additions. And yes that formula can still be used in todays portal era.
That formula also brings the most success in March and that's been proven over and over.
What doesn't work in March is relying heavily on Freshmen to carry you. That too has been proven over and over.

IowaBear said:

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Langston is the only one who's been developed and he's our 2nd best player.. that's not a coincidence. This team is its best version when they recruit and develop guys and mesh them with transfer portal additions. And yes that formula can still be used in todays portal era.
That formula also brings the most success in March and that's been proven over and over.
What doesn't work in March is relying heavily on Freshmen to carry you. That too has been proven over and over.

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You're preaching to the choir. We've got fans acting like our recruiting strategy is the only option. The rest of our league -- and many other successful programs nationwide -- are proving that's not the case.

The transfer portal has certainly changed things. It has not in any way, shape or form made it impossible to win without one-and-dones and one-year rental transfers. We have made a choice to go that route. And it has not yielded much fruit to date.

The transfer portal has created one year rentals across the board in college basketball, not just at Baylor. It's not like CSD is getting them by design. We won't be able to build a program again as if it's 2019.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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The transfer portal has created one year rentals across the board in college basketball, not just at Baylor. It's not like CSD is getting them by design. We won't be able to build a program again as if it's 2019.

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Edit: stupid emojis. I wish I could get rid of those things on the mobile version.

If you are taking grad transfers, and we have two of the last three years at the point guard position, you are literally doing it by design. We're taking more one-year players (transfers and freshmen) than any other team in our league.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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IowaBear said:

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You're acting like 2-3 year players don't exist that's just a flat out lie… I'll use ISU as an example For you Tamin Lipsey, Milan Momcilovic guys who were recruited as 2-3 year guys. Btw Milan is the best freshman in this conference right now and he was rated outside the top 75. Lipsey is one of the better PGs in this league and was also not a 5 star. This belief you have that we can only recruit 1 and dones is ******ed and inaccurate

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We are not *only* recruiting one-and-dones. We have 2 this year. Exactly 2.

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Yes, and those one and dones are just enough to present a problem.