Refs have an agenda. Fun to watch fans make excuses for them, because not believing that refs are intentionally affecting games sits better with them than just acknowledging the obvious.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Refs have an agenda. Fun to watch fans make excuses for them, because not believing that refs are intentionally affecting games sits better with them than just acknowledging the obvious.

---

Nope, sorry, Preacher Bear. I spent around 30 years off and on officiating multiple sports, including basketball. Clearly not all of them are bad, but what has happened over the last few years is that a larger percentage are marginal at best. I do not believe they are trying to affect the outcome of any particular contest, but inconsistent application of the rules one team to another can give that appearance, and that is frequent now in the officiating in the B12. It's the same in the women's game. The best officials are those who are rarely seen or heard, and have few interactions with coaches and/or players.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Refs have an agenda. Fun to watch fans make excuses for them, because not believing that refs are intentionally affecting games sits better with them than just acknowledging the obvious.

---

Username checks out

BUbackerinET said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Refs have an agenda. Fun to watch fans make excuses for them, because not believing that refs are intentionally affecting games sits better with them than just acknowledging the obvious.

---

Nope, sorry, Preacher Bear. I spent around 30 years off and on officiating multiple sports, including basketball. Clearly not all of them are bad, but what has happened over the last few years is that a larger percentage are marginal at best. I do not believe they are trying to affect the outcome of any particular contest, but inconsistent application of the rules one team to another can give that appearance, and that is frequent now in the officiating in the B12. It's the same in the women's game. The best officials are those who are rarely seen or heard, and have few interactions with coaches and/or players.

---

Do you think some are manipulating scores at least occasionally? That Iowa State game reeked of an agenda of some sort.

B12 went off the rails at this juncture:

https://big12sports.com/news/2010/5/6/204940907.aspx

As mentioned there are no B12 refs specifically. We pull from a pool of refs that many conferences use. I agree the refs we get from the pool are often poor and seem to be getting worse.

Can we expand the pool? I'd be willing to try a few from the international pool.

One the corruption aspect, refs with any kind of gambling history shouldn't be allowed. Obviously this is hard (and getting harder) to police. Refs could bet on the over and under and very easily adjust their calling to match. This may or may not affect the outcome of the game but just the final score or other metric. Its a tough problem.

I do believe that refs, esp this year seem to be calling things in a way to make games stay close. Is it by design or human nature I don't know. I don't have any explanation for why some players get called for vicinity fouls with little or no contact and others get clobbered going to the bucket and don't get a foul called.

In the end, I don't think there is widespread corruption (maybe a little), it's just a difficult job to do.

I agree the best refs are the ones that remain anonymous, call the obvious stuff consistently and don't miss obvious calls.

That particular game was horrible. That crew shouldn't call another B12 game (especially for Baylor) this year. However, I do think it's a game that just got away from them (the officials). They were inconsistent team to team and half to half. Just like in FB, if you look close enough you can find a hold in the OL technically, on literally every play; but, most officials are savvy enough to only call them when it's giving an advantage on the play, or is so obvious it has to be called. In basketball, which is supposed to be a non-contact sport, there has to be some give and take to make it enjoyable to watch and to sell tickets. The key in basketball is more about calling similar fouls on both teams and be consistent with the calls, whatever they are going to be, so the players, coaches, and fans will believe in the game. In the ISU game with Baylor, the crew was inconsistent in fouls between teams (a foul against one team with similar play on the other end of the floor no foul), and they changed philosophy in the second half. They largely "let them play," and called a loose game in the first half (mostly), but in the second half they tightened up dramatically and became part of the game instead of the players. Enforcement of the box rule for coaches is very loosely enforced, if at all. In that very game, coach "O" was out of the box a lot, no call, yet Drew gets T'ed up twice for it. Not an "agenda" by the crew, just poor judgment, and could have been handled so much better. The fact that Drew drew 2 Ts in a game is prima facia poor judgment by the officials!

BUbackerinET said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Refs have an agenda. Fun to watch fans make excuses for them, because not believing that refs are intentionally affecting games sits better with them than just acknowledging the obvious.

---

Nope, sorry, Preacher Bear. I spent around 30 years off and on officiating multiple sports, including basketball. Clearly not all of them are bad, but what has happened over the last few years is that a larger percentage are marginal at best. I do not believe they are trying to affect the outcome of any particular contest, but inconsistent application of the rules one team to another can give that appearance, and that is frequent now in the officiating in the B12. It's the same in the women's game. The best officials are those who are rarely seen or heard, and have few interactions with coaches and/or players.

---

I second that. There is a dearth of available officials, and its showing up now in the college level.

Your NCAA Official is someone who has worked their way up through High School and been available to work some really specific time and location requirements, so that some officials who are good enough can't meet the schedule or don't want to do all that traveling , added to the fact that the leagues are paying officials well below a reasonable rate. Add to that the attacks from idiots who don't understand the rules and often don't care, they consider screaming at the ref and throwing things to be 'part of the game'.

What you end up with, is a sparse selection of available officials, and so unless they are consistently awful or commit an unpardonable sin, they show up over and over. The league even likes it to a degree, as they can hint that the problem is a few bad officials and not a piss-poor officiating office at league HQ.

And as bad as the Big XII sometimes is in officiating, oh my goodness you should see what goes on in Division II/III!

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

---

Dude, if you think officials act even one tenth as bad as coaches, you need to try working as one for a while and learn a few things.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

---

Dude, if you think officials act even one tenth as bad as coaches, you need to try working as one for a while and learn a few things.

---

Joey Crawford
Ted Valentine
John Higgins

any other fairy tales you wish to share with the class?

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

---

Dude, if you think officials act even one tenth as bad as coaches, you need to try working as one for a while and learn a few things.

---

Joey Crawford
Ted Valentine
John Higgins

any other fairy tales you wish to share with the class?

---

You really don't know much about college coaches, I see.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

---

Dude, if you think officials act even one tenth as bad as coaches, you need to try working as one for a while and learn a few things.

---

Joey Crawford
Ted Valentine
John Higgins

any other fairy tales you wish to share with the class?

---

You really don't know much about college coaches, I see.

---

When Big Ten refs publicly sided with Bobby Knight against Ted Valentine, did they know coaches?

Clearly you feel the need to play the victim. Enjoy.
The rest of us will simply go with our five senses.

BTW…….ref apologists:

Refs have a tough job
Refs have a thankless job
Refs deal with difficult personalities
Refs get unfair commentary on their work

Hurrah……..you successfully described 98% of Americans with full time employment.

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

---

Dude, if you think officials act even one tenth as bad as coaches, you need to try working as one for a while and learn a few things.

---

Joey Crawford
Ted Valentine
John Higgins

any other fairy tales you wish to share with the class?

---

You really don't know much about college coaches, I see.

---

When Big Ten refs publicly sided with Bobby Knight against Ted Valentine, did they know coaches?

Clearly you feel the need to play the victim. Enjoy.
The rest of us will simply go with our five senses.

---

Get back to me when you have passed even one rules test and attended a position clinic.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

---

Dude, if you think officials act even one tenth as bad as coaches, you need to try working as one for a while and learn a few things.

---

Joey Crawford
Ted Valentine
John Higgins

any other fairy tales you wish to share with the class?

---

You really don't know much about college coaches, I see.

---

When Big Ten refs publicly sided with Bobby Knight against Ted Valentine, did they know coaches?

Clearly you feel the need to play the victim. Enjoy.
The rest of us will simply go with our five senses.

---

Get back to me when you have passed even one rules test and attended a position clinic.

---

Doubling down on victimhood. Let me know how that choice works for you in the real world.

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

---

Dude, if you think officials act even one tenth as bad as coaches, you need to try working as one for a while and learn a few things.

---

Joey Crawford
Ted Valentine
John Higgins

any other fairy tales you wish to share with the class?

---

You really don't know much about college coaches, I see.

---

When Big Ten refs publicly sided with Bobby Knight against Ted Valentine, did they know coaches?

Clearly you feel the need to play the victim. Enjoy.
The rest of us will simply go with our five senses.

---

Get back to me when you have passed even one rules test and attended a position clinic.

---

Doubling down on victimhood. Let me know how that choice works for you in the real world.

---

"Victimhood"? Son, you're the one here throwing a tantrum.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

---

Dude, if you think officials act even one tenth as bad as coaches, you need to try working as one for a while and learn a few things.

---

Joey Crawford
Ted Valentine
John Higgins

any other fairy tales you wish to share with the class?

---

You really don't know much about college coaches, I see.

---

When Big Ten refs publicly sided with Bobby Knight against Ted Valentine, did they know coaches?

Clearly you feel the need to play the victim. Enjoy.
The rest of us will simply go with our five senses.

---

Get back to me when you have passed even one rules test and attended a position clinic.

---

Doubling down on victimhood. Let me know how that choice works for you in the real world.

---

"Victimhood"? Son, you're the one here throwing a tantrum.

---

Refs are Saints blessed by the Almighty. They are pure little lambs who suffer needlessly.
They never lie, cheat or steal. They never err. They never have bad days.
Their jobs are more difficult than those of other people. They are long suffering.
Coaches abuse them needlessly. Refs deserve statues and parades.

Make you feel better?

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

---

Dude, if you think officials act even one tenth as bad as coaches, you need to try working as one for a while and learn a few things.

---

Joey Crawford
Ted Valentine
John Higgins

any other fairy tales you wish to share with the class?

---

You really don't know much about college coaches, I see.

---

When Big Ten refs publicly sided with Bobby Knight against Ted Valentine, did they know coaches?

Clearly you feel the need to play the victim. Enjoy.
The rest of us will simply go with our five senses.

---

Get back to me when you have passed even one rules test and attended a position clinic.

---

Doubling down on victimhood. Let me know how that choice works for you in the real world.

---

"Victimhood"? Son, you're the one here throwing a tantrum.

---

Refs are Saints blessed by the Almighty. They are pure little lambs who suffer needlessly.
They never lie, cheat or steal. They never err. They never have bad days.
Their jobs are more difficult than those of other people. They are long suffering.
Coaches abuse them needlessly. Refs deserve statues and parades.

Make you feel better?

---

Now you're being silly.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Adriacus: "make every ref where a wire that transmits all of their conversations to recording. The concept of disputes on what was said by refs, coaches & players during a game is laughable."

LOL, that'll never happen. Not because the refs would object, but coaches in particular say things all the time, which they would never want broadcasted to the public.

---

Way to add to what I posted…….never said anything about it being public. That blurb is your creation.

Game reviews routinely have disputes about what was said by the parties. The B12 [or any conference] having a definitive record [and more importantly the parties knowing that it exists] stops 99.9999% of the posturing.

Ask any lawyer how much a clean record means for appellate review. Same concept.

BTW, the added benefit is that both coaches & refs would immediately get their language and behavior in check,

---

Dude, if you think officials act even one tenth as bad as coaches, you need to try working as one for a while and learn a few things.

---

Joey Crawford
Ted Valentine
John Higgins

any other fairy tales you wish to share with the class?

---

You really don't know much about college coaches, I see.

---

When Big Ten refs publicly sided with Bobby Knight against Ted Valentine, did they know coaches?

Clearly you feel the need to play the victim. Enjoy.
The rest of us will simply go with our five senses.

---

Get back to me when you have passed even one rules test and attended a position clinic.

---

Doubling down on victimhood. Let me know how that choice works for you in the real world.

---

"Victimhood"? Son, you're the one here throwing a tantrum.

---

Refs are Saints blessed by the Almighty. They are pure little lambs who suffer needlessly.
They never lie, cheat or steal. They never err. They never have bad days.
Their jobs are more difficult than those of other people. They are long suffering.
Coaches abuse them needlessly. Refs deserve statues and parades.

Make you feel better?

---

Now you're being silly.

---

Silly like giving blanket support to a work group when every work group in every professional has poor/under performers? Because that choice is truly silly.

Care to compare retention rates for refs compared to most industries?
Care to compare disciplinary rates of refs to other industries?

Hint: neither figure bodes well.

Pretend the refs just "happen" to be bad all you want. It's clear that they have an agenda in many games.

Typically when organizations have financial incentives to manipulate entertainment or business for profit, games in this case, they figure out how to get it done.

Don't care if one former ref here believes that all refs are just doing their best, too many examples of refs clearly not calling in good faith.

Look at what officials are paid, some don't even get medical.

You want good officials? Make the job worth attracting the best.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Look at what officials are paid, some don't even get medical.

You want good officials? Make the job worth attracting the best.

---

Internet says P5 refs make 50k to 100k per year, and don't work a full year, 5 or 6 months. Don't know if accurate but I doubt that they're paupers.

And the sky's the limit on how much they're making on the side influencing games.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Look at what officials are paid, some don't even get medical.

You want good officials? Make the job worth attracting the best.

---

Internet says P5 refs make 50k to 100k per year, and don't work a full year, 5 or 6 months. Don't know if accurate but I doubt that they're paupers.

---

I don't mean the ones working major games now. I mean the ones working their way up.

It's a pyramid, actually.

You get a bunch of young officials who get started and they work their way up through Middle School and JV High School games, often getting stiffed on game checks by school districts that "lose" the paperwork and similar crap.

So about 20% never work a second season. Then as officials get experience they gain bigger schedules but the pay is not all that great and unless you own your own business you can only work some times and days, and its near-impossible to make enough for the work to pay for itself. So you lose a lot more to working just high school games because they don't get seen by the higher levels, or they can't find the time or afford the expense of trying to work the junior colleges, which is how officials get seen by the major conferences.

The system is a mess. Officials have a hard time getting seen by college conferences, the youngest ones lose money for the most part and a lot of them quit early or settle for a steady high school schedule.

I am not disagreeing that there are some piss-poor officials out there, especially the ones with thin skin and no interest in improving now that they are Division I. But you need new blood available, and you get that by noticing and supporting the good officials, and by making clear that fans want reform.

Attacking all officials just guarantees nothing will change.

No one is attacking all officials. Just some of us believe some P5 refs are following an agenda to alter spreads/outcomes of some games.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Look at what officials are paid, some don't even get medical.

You want good officials? Make the job worth attracting the best.

---

How many side/second jobs offer medical? Not many.

Higgins was working 55-60 games per year at $5000+ per game. As a side gig.
Still want to claim that no financial incentives exist?

Few jobs start people at top pay. EP not current earnings is the motivator to start.

It isn't that we don't understand your agenda. We simply aren't buying it.

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Look at what officials are paid, some don't even get medical.

You want good officials? Make the job worth attracting the best.

---

How many side/second jobs offer medical? Not many.

Higgins was working 55-60 games per year at $5000+ per game. As a side gig.
Still want to claim that no financial incentives exist?

Few jobs start people at top pay. EP not current earnings is the motivator to start.

It isn't that we don't understand your agenda. We simply aren't buying it.

---

You show very poor reading comprehension, son.