I thought Boyed was a C PF tweener? I don't really know much about him other than he looks like a load to handle.

bear2be2 said:

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IvanBear said:

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historian said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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I don't think it is as simple as recruit a small forward or a power forward. I think the real question is a philosophical one about how to build a team and play. Get old and stay old should be the mantra.

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I think that's what Drew likes to do and was able to do expertly before the portal & NIL changed everything. Now, that might not be possible. Would we be able to get players like Mitchell AND Teague to sit out a full year before playing? And then stick around for an additional year? Doubtful. Granted they came back because covid caused postseason to hd cancelled. The pint is, however, we were in a unique circumstance that allowed us to continue developing elite talent. We may never have that opportunity again.

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That's fine the 2010 team was totally capable of winning a national championship it was built with similar philosophy but didn't have the guys sitting and waiting like you discussed.

This is why I think we have to run off someone like Nunn though. He's not a point guard, he's a ball dominant 2. We've got a much better one of those in Langston Love. Nunn is going to have to move to the bench because Drew HAS to have someone running the point aside from Wright.

We've got too many 2 guards, in my eyes Nunn is the least talented of the bunch. We need point guards, the problem is the two point guards on the roster for next year Miro and Wright are highly unlikely to be capable of leading an offense.

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We'll have two point guards next year, so it's irrelevant that Nunn isn't one. And he's not a ball-dominant player. He's a good college off guard who can drive the lane and finish/get fouled or knock down a catch-and-shoot 3 at a really high clip.

I'm not really understanding your take on Nunn. He was our best player in some of our biggest wins after Love went down. And there's little reason to think he won't be a better player next year with a full year of experience in our system.

He, Love and Edgecombe should have no problem whatsoever sharing the minutes at the second and third guard spots. And all can be complementary pieces. You don't get rid of good, experienced, proven contributors if there's no good reason to do so IMO.

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Let's talk rotation of guards here. It's too speculative to talk about what our 4 and 5 positions are going to look like at this point as Josh O is the only established player in the program that will play one of those roles.

Right now you have:

Nunn
Love
Little
Edgecombe
Wright


The only guy right now I look at this and go no question he's a starter is Edgecombe. He'll play the 2/3.

Love, unless he's actually not healthy, I think everyone on this board would agree he's obviously a starter. It was odd he wasn't a starter this year.

So that leaves 3 guys: Nunn, Little, and Wright.

Everyone loves Wright, but he's a 4 star 25th rated point guard recruit. Nothing about his resume screams he's ready to be a top flight starter point guard in the Big 12. I hope he is and can get those minutes but foolish to think he will be that year one. Most consider him a multi year player, which means at this point he is probably coming off the bench for a year.

Little all season looked extremely raw, He only had one game where he came in and looked like he might have the spark necessary to play at the Big 12 level. None of these things are knocks on him, he's pretty young and he shows a lot of promise, but tough to convince me you can sit here and assume he's going to be a starter next year, I hope he blows up in the off season and makes this discussion irrelevant but the fact Grimes would come in and look better than Little in non conference makes me think he has a ways to go. Hard to think if Grimes had stuck around that he wouldn't have received more minutes than Little in conference play. He seems to be to be on the Langston Love track of sitting getting some playing time but developing and will hopefully be a beast as a Junior and Senior (that's the kind of talent we really need to hold).

Nunn, as you've said, is not a point guard, but that's what this lineup needs. I think everyone here would agree between him and Love, Love is the better player. He was extremely hot or cold, more cold than not, and the only big game I would argue he showed up in was Kansas in Waco, which that was arguably the worst KU team in the Self era and their best player was playing injured, so it really wasn't the Kansas of old. That's not to say he didn't have big games that we needed him to have to win, but they weren't against good defenses or overly talented rosters. He was an absolute no-show in out of conference games against group of 5 teams + Big East teams. His best game was an irrelevant 9 points in the Michigan State debacle.

Nunn was also a 2nd or 3rd choice in the portal last year he filled a stop gap need and gets a really poor grade on the one thing he supposedly had upside on (defense).

Nunn Love Edgecombe on the court is not a good line up there's no distributor there. Nunn Wright Edgecombe looks rough too, Love Nunn Wright I can see as a good second unit maybe. I just dont' see a great line up with Nunn and Love, it starts to feel like an either or.

Which is too bad, I don't dislike the kid, I just think his game is inferior to the rest of the roster in relation to development and where he starts on the team.

I don't expect Drew to run anyone off though, it's not in his nature. Which has me scared we're going to start a mess of guys who can't run the point next year.

You are correct in the sense we need more players that can create for others. Often Dennis was our only player on the floor who could do that…And despite the assist numbers he wasn't special as a creator.

Our Natty Team always had 2 creators on the floor at all times and often 3 players who could make plays for others. That team had all 8 players in its rotation that could switch and help on defense as well. This team had too many players on the floor that are good skilled athletes, but not High Basketball IQ players. That's what we need and it is possible to find those traits in Freshman.

Which is why I said bring in a PG that has started a college game.

6 schollies on guards is not too many.

And Edgecombe could play SF (sort of a LeBron role). That dude aint coming off the court much.

So basically:

Portal PG/Wright
Love/Nunn/Little
Edgecombe
Portal F
Josh O/Boyed

GoodOleBaylorLine said:

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Which is why I said bring in a PG that has started a college game.

6 schollies on guards is not too many.

And Edgecombe could play SF (sort of a LeBron role). That dude aint coming off the court much.

So basically:

Portal PG/Wright
Love/Nunn/Little
Edgecombe
Portal F
Josh O/Boyed

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One edit Little is a true Point guard.

I could live with this lineup I don't think its final four quality but I could live with it. The problem is I don't think you bench Nunn and expect him to stay.

GoodOleBaylorLine said:

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I thought Boyed was a C PF tweener? I don't really know much about him other than he looks like a load to handle.

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You may be thinking of Ndjonga, who is the forward who got hurt at the beginning of this season. Boyed is a 7-foot back-to-back-the-basket post? He's coming in next year.

GoodOleBaylorLine said:

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Which is why I said bring in a PG that has started a college game.

6 schollies on guards is not too many.

And Edgecombe could play SF (sort of a LeBron role). That dude aint coming off the court much.

So basically:

Portal PG/Wright
Love/Nunn/Little
Edgecombe
Portal F
Josh O/Boyed

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It's not that six scholarships on guards is too many. Ideally, you'd use six or seven.

Our issue is that we already have five guards who are going to expect playing time next year, and six is too many for a rotation.

If we add a starting caliber guard to our rotation, we're likely going to lose somebody because there aren't going to be enough minutes to go around, and rotation caliber players aren't going to be happy playing nothing but garbage minutes in the transfer portal era. I can't see Little sticking around to be the third point guard or fourth shooting guard.

bear2be2 said:

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IvanBear said:

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historian said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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I don't think it is as simple as recruit a small forward or a power forward. I think the real question is a philosophical one about how to build a team and play. Get old and stay old should be the mantra.

---

I think that's what Drew likes to do and was able to do expertly before the portal & NIL changed everything. Now, that might not be possible. Would we be able to get players like Mitchell AND Teague to sit out a full year before playing? And then stick around for an additional year? Doubtful. Granted they came back because covid caused postseason to hd cancelled. The pint is, however, we were in a unique circumstance that allowed us to continue developing elite talent. We may never have that opportunity again.

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That's fine the 2010 team was totally capable of winning a national championship it was built with similar philosophy but didn't have the guys sitting and waiting like you discussed.

This is why I think we have to run off someone like Nunn though. He's not a point guard, he's a ball dominant 2. We've got a much better one of those in Langston Love. Nunn is going to have to move to the bench because Drew HAS to have someone running the point aside from Wright.

We've got too many 2 guards, in my eyes Nunn is the least talented of the bunch. We need point guards, the problem is the two point guards on the roster for next year Miro and Wright are highly unlikely to be capable of leading an offense.

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We'll have two point guards next year, so it's irrelevant that Nunn isn't one. And he's not a ball-dominant player. He's a good college off guard who can drive the lane and finish/get fouled or knock down a catch-and-shoot 3 at a really high clip.

I'm not really understanding your take on Nunn. He was our best player in some of our biggest wins after Love went down. And there's little reason to think he won't be a better player next year with a full year of experience in our system.

He, Love and Edgecombe should have no problem whatsoever sharing the minutes at the second and third guard spots. And all can be complementary pieces. You don't get rid of good, experienced, proven contributors if there's no good reason to do so IMO.

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Nunn started over Love this year. I respect Drew and know if he started before Love...he must be very good. I am really tired of Baylor fans bad mouthing our team.

historian said:

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Big12Bear said:

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He technically has another year and alluded to that in an interview in the middle of the season. I have no idea what his plans are though.

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I said that because he was honored on Senior Night. When that happens doesn't it mean he's not coming back?

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We had Flo get honored a couple of times. 'Rona got things janked up.

Nunley just said that Lohner is probably coming back, but not a sure thing.

I look at Nunn and Love as you go with the hot hand. One or the other will give you some offense.

GoodOleBaylorLine said:

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I look at Nunn and Love as you go with the hot hand. One or the other will give you some offense.

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And they can play together too, because they have complementary skill sets.

I want both of those guys back and playing a lot for us next season.

Thanks for the clarification

Lohner coming back would be a nightmare for this roster. Drew needs to politely tell him he should spend his final season of eligibility at a mid major where his raw effort can turn into something useful. A non contributing senior is a mess for someone in the day and age.

If they can cut Matthew Mayer from the team then I'm not worried about Drew's ability to cut other players

You make really good points. Respect the basketball knowledge here.

I think UConn has hit the absolute perfect balance. In a way I feel Iowa St and Houston have been lucky in that their philosophy is more beneficial right now. Defense and rebounding first recruits that they can teach offense to along the way.

That ensures absolutely zero pro demand for your guys the first few years and keeps development schedules on track.

Drew recruiting for offensive skill set first ( you're 100% correct on this point) puts us at more risk. Much higher pro demand and much more reciprocation from top level recruits. I agree offense takes priority but we need more defensive and intensity intangibles. Right now it's lip service

We whiffed very badly on a number of guys we held spots for in multiple years. We also lost two defensive hubs to the draft and career ending injury.

If all the spots are at least contributing level players we will be on a more sustainable path. It's still a hodgepodge mess but we have to trust someone will develop and emerge. In a perfect world sure, we get an elite jr/sr pg next year until Wright takes the keys his Sophomore yr. Might not happen so desperately need multiple high level forwards/bigs

Quinton said:

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We whiffed very badly on a number of guys we held spots for in multiple years. We also lost two defensive hubs to the draft and career ending injury.

If all the spots are at least contributing level players we will be on a more sustainable path. It's still a hodgepodge mess but we have to trust someone will develop and emerge. In a perfect world sure, we get an elite jr/sr pg next year until Wright takes the keys his Sophomore yr. Might not happen so desperately need multiple high level forwards/bigs

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So much misplaced blame placed on the one-and-dones, but whiffing on transfers and players who never developed hurt us exponentially more IMO. Freshmen shouldn't be expected to carrry the team but that's what happens by default when upperclassmen fail to live up to expectations.

Starting to come around to your idea of adding a defensive specialist to our coaching staff. No reason players like Walter and Nunn, who both possess the requisite desire and athleticism to at least be competent defenders, were so horrible on that end. The effort and desire were there, but the technique was horrific. Basics like footwork, closing out and working around screens. Since we recruit based on player offensive ability, we need someone on staff to coach 'em up to at least be somewhat competent on that end.

You can spot a casual fan with limited hoops knowledge when they are preoccupied by who starts. Love is a 6th man which in our system is really playing a starter's role with starter's minutes. Who gives a F if he starts halves or not. With Love I am far more concerned about his accumulation of lower body injuries. I don't think his health is something we can rely on moving forward and therefore I think we need another guard in the rotation from the portal. Anything Love can provide I will consider a bonus.

I am full on board with adding a defensive specialist on the coaching staff who also has some say in recruiting. We need some bangers inside who patrol the paint with some ferocity. Guys like Mark Vital, RIco Gathers, and Quincy Acy come to mind. I don't think any of those guys were 5 star recruits but they stuck around and got better each year. It seems to me that Baylor lost a bit of intensity and sense of urgency when Jerome Tang left for K-State. We need someone like that who can fire the guys up to play all out on the defensive end. I like Jayden Nunn. He has a good shot, drives to the hoop hard and with the right coaching has the quickness to desire to be a good defensive as well as offensive player.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Quinton said:

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We whiffed very badly on a number of guys we held spots for in multiple years. We also lost two defensive hubs to the draft and career ending injury.

If all the spots are at least contributing level players we will be on a more sustainable path. It's still a hodgepodge mess but we have to trust someone will develop and emerge. In a perfect world sure, we get an elite jr/sr pg next year until Wright takes the keys his Sophomore yr. Might not happen so desperately need multiple high level forwards/bigs

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So much misplaced blame placed on the one-and-dones, but whiffing on transfers and players who never developed hurt us exponentially more IMO. Freshmen shouldn't be expected to carrry the team but that's what happens by default when upperclassmen fail to live up to expectations.

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Although I don't disagree with you in general, I think you are underplaying that a large part of the reason we don't have any developed upperclassmen is the ones that were most likely to develop left in the draft, with two likely going this year. This is a large part of the frustration with the one and dones, making us reliant on the next crop the next season, and it turns into a cycle. Regardless of what else is on the roster, Walter played 32 minutes a game and Missi played 25 and that is development time that is gone, not on a whiff but on a hit that is an early leaver.


It's not their fault - they are freshman and have limitations in their one season and they are understandably taking the money offered to them. But it is (or becoming) a systemic problem.

GoodOleBaylorLine said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Quinton said:

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We whiffed very badly on a number of guys we held spots for in multiple years. We also lost two defensive hubs to the draft and career ending injury.

If all the spots are at least contributing level players we will be on a more sustainable path. It's still a hodgepodge mess but we have to trust someone will develop and emerge. In a perfect world sure, we get an elite jr/sr pg next year until Wright takes the keys his Sophomore yr. Might not happen so desperately need multiple high level forwards/bigs

---

So much misplaced blame placed on the one-and-dones, but whiffing on transfers and players who never developed hurt us exponentially more IMO. Freshmen shouldn't be expected to carrry the team but that's what happens by default when upperclassmen fail to live up to expectations.

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Although I don't disagree with you in general, I think you are underplaying that a large part of the reason we don't have any developed upperclassmen is the ones that were most likely to develop left in the draft, with two likely going this year. This is a large part of the frustration with the one and dones, making us reliant on the next crop the next season, and it turns into a cycle. Regardless of what else is on the roster, Walter played 32 minutes a game and Missi played 25 and that is development time that is gone, not on a whiff but on a hit that is an early leaver.


It's not their fault - they are freshman and have limitations in their one season and they are understandably taking the money offered to them. But it is (or becoming) a systemic problem.

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Exactly. It becomes a treadmill you can't jump off.