I know it doesn't support your narrative, but the same could be said for upperclassmen/ transfers. Outside of Bridges our transfers have they have been awful defensively the past 2 seasons.

I get your point, but Nunn was hyped as a potential defensive stopper. A lock down defender type. Wasn't close to the case. Maybe the hype was less though but I remember it being significant.

Quinton said:

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I get your point, but Nunn was hyped as a potential defensive stopper. A lock down defender type. Wasn't close to the case. Maybe the hype was less though but I remember it being significant.

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Beat me to it. Nunn was supposed to be a defense stopper but he was a turnstyle defensively. Dennis was a 5th year senior (e.g. grown man) but was a defensive sieve. Lohner was supposed to be the next Vital but couldn't get more than 5 minutes per game. I could go on. Defense hasn't been a recruiting priority the past 2 recruiting classes, both freshmen and upperclassmen. Hopefully our work this offseason in the portal will prioritize defensive ability.

bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I know it doesn't support your narrative, but the same could be said for upperclassmen/ transfers. Outside of Bridges our transfers have they have been awful defensively the past 2 seasons.

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None of our transfers have been hyped to the level that every one-and-done freshman has. Not one.

The great thing about transfers is you have relevant experience and a concrete track record on which to base your expectations. Outside of Lohner, all of our transfers have at least matched their production from their previous stops.

With freshmen, we have to listen to the non-stop hype machine both in the offseason and season only to watch the same weaknesses manifest themselves time and again.

I'm sure Edgecombe will be a solid player for us. But I fully expect to see the same excuses made for him that were made Keyonte and Ja'Kobe when he proves incapable of handling the high-usage role we've reserved for him.

---

Try again. The OP specifically referenced defense, not usage on offense. My post was pointing out that our upperclassmen and transfers the past 2 years have been equally bad or worse on the defensive end as our freshmen have been.

Maybe it's the coaching?

Disagree. Nunn and Dennis were bad defensively but not as bad as Walter.
And George well he straight up milked it defensively on top of being god awful on that end. Transfer's definitely weren't anything special on defense but Walter and George were both pathetic defenders

IowaBear said:

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Disagree. Nunn and Dennis were bad defensively but not as bad as Walter.
And George well he straight up milked it defensively on top of being god awful on that end. Transfer's definitely weren't anything special on defense but Walter and George were both pathetic defenders

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George was a bad defender but so ws Cryer last year (upperclassman). Walter was no worse than Nunn (upperclassman) or Dennis (5th year senior). Overall we don't priotize defensive ability in recruits, both freshmen and upperclassmen. Hopefully that changes in the portal this offseason.

BaylorLit 01 said:

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Maybe it's the coaching?

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Combination of coaching and recruiting priorities.

Quinton said:

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I get your point, but Nunn was hyped as a potential defensive stopper. A lock down defender type. Wasn't close to the case. Maybe the hype was less though but I remember it being significant.

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His defense was over hyped by the mods here, just like Grimes' was, but every Baylor recruit and player gets that treatment on this site. If we based our opinions on what he did and was at VCU, there's no objective justification for being disappointed with his play this year. In fact, he was a better offensive player for us than he was for them, and his defense wasn't significantly worse.

BaylorLit 01 said:

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Maybe it's the coaching?

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At this point you would conclude thats a part of it. The fundamentals displayed the last two years are consistently bad.

Just watch our perimeter players try to break down into a defensive stance, watch their feet as they attempt to stay in front of their man, look at the intensity of shot contests. It isn't solely personnel (though that is a big part).

I don't remember it the same. Again, think the hype was slightly less but not by much.

Quinton said:

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I don't remember it the same. Again, think the hype was slightly less but not by much.

---

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Slightly less than what?

Jayden Nunn was a role player in the Atlantic 10 at VCU. Anyone who thought he was going to come to Baylor and be a star had wholly unrealistic expectations.

Nunn was a much better player for Baylor this past season than he was in either of his two seasons at VCU. Any disappointment regarding his performance (once he got over his slow start to Big 12 play) is/was unjustified.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I know it doesn't support your narrative, but the same could be said for upperclassmen/ transfers. Outside of Bridges our transfers have they have been awful defensively the past 2 seasons.

---

None of our transfers have been hyped to the level that every one-and-done freshman has. Not one.

The great thing about transfers is you have relevant experience and a concrete track record on which to base your expectations. Outside of Lohner, all of our transfers have at least matched their production from their previous stops.

With freshmen, we have to listen to the non-stop hype machine both in the offseason and season only to watch the same weaknesses manifest themselves time and again.

I'm sure Edgecombe will be a solid player for us. But I fully expect to see the same excuses made for him that were made Keyonte and Ja'Kobe when he proves incapable of handling the high-usage role we've reserved for him.

---

Try again. The OP specifically referenced defense, not usage on offense. My post was pointing out that our upperclassmen and transfers the past 2 years have been equally bad or worse on the defensive end as our freshmen have been.

---

If you think Edgecombe is going to be a plus defender in the Big 12, come out and say it. You already made that mistake Walter, I wouldn't think you'd be in such a hurry to repeat it.

Otherwise, go reread my original post in this thread and tell me where my approach is wrong.

I'm not saying he will be a plus defender. I have never seen Edge play. But your obsession with bashing our freshmen is weird and borderline obsessive. We had multiple poor / bad defenders the past few years who were upperclassmen...but you continue to target only the freshmen.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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I'm not saying he will be a plus defender. I have never seen Edge play. But your obsession with bashing our freshmen is weird and borderline obsessive. We had multiple poor / bad defenders the past few years who were upperclassmen...but you continue to target only the freshmen.

---

Who have I bashed? Taking a wait-and-see approach on a player who has never played a second of college basketball isn't bashing by any definition. You're just being overly defensive as usual.

But few here have contributed more to the Baylor preseason hype --> in-season excuse cycle than you have. I don't understand your insistence on repeating this pattern every year.

You know why I like juniors and seniors? Because they don't need excuses made for them. When they stink, no one feels a need to rationalize why that's so. We say they need to be better and move on. It's only with freshman that we feel a need to create reasons/excuses for why they can't do the job they're being asked (and now, paid very well) to do.

In fairness Bear2 has definitely called out the defense of guys like Cryer, Dennis, Flag etc he's been critical (defensively) of more than just the freshman

IowaBear said:

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In fairness Bear2 has definitely called out the defense of guys like Cryer, Dennis, Fladg etc he's been critical (defensively) of more than just the freshman

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I've been disappointed with our man defense/defensive intensity for most of the Scott Drew era, and I've called out all players who play poor or lazy defense.

The idea that I only criticize freshmen is absurd.

bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I don't remember it the same. Again, think the hype was slightly less but not by much.

---

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Slightly less than what?

Jayden Nunn was a role player in the Atlantic 10 at VCU. Anyone who thought he was going to come to Baylor and be a star had wholly unrealistic expectations.

Nunn was a much better player for Baylor this past season than he was in either of his two seasons at VCU. Any disappointment regarding his performance (once he got over his slow start to Big 12 play) is/was unjustified.

---

I'm disappointed Drew had to reach down to VCU level talent to fill a starting role on our Roster. Not in Nunn's performance, I think he's fine for his talent level, I just don't think he's a quality Big 12 guard.

People talked up his defensive chops though when he hit the portal. He was also listed as a point guard, but it's painfully obvious he's not capable of playing the point. There's legitimate reasons to be disappointed in his performance this year. Much like Walter he didn't show up against the competition that mattered most, but unlike Walter, no one pretends he has the same talent level so he does get more of a pass.

IvanBear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I don't remember it the same. Again, think the hype was slightly less but not by much.

---

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Slightly less than what?

Jayden Nunn was a role player in the Atlantic 10 at VCU. Anyone who thought he was going to come to Baylor and be a star had wholly unrealistic expectations.

Nunn was a much better player for Baylor this past season than he was in either of his two seasons at VCU. Any disappointment regarding his performance (once he got over his slow start to Big 12 play) is/was unjustified.

---

I'm disappointed Drew had to reach down to VCU level talent to fill a starting role on our Roster. Not in Nunn's performance, I think he's fine for his talent level, I just don't think he's a quality Big 12 guard.

People talked up his defensive chops though when he hit the portal. He was also listed as a point guard, but it's painfully obvious he's not capable of playing the point. There's legitimate reasons to be disappointed in his performance this year. Much like Walter he didn't show up against the competition that mattered most, but unlike Walter, no one pretends he has the same talent level so he does get more of a pass.

---

We've had this conversation before, and I couldn't disagree more with your first sentence. There is talent at all levels of college basketball, and many of our best transfers have come from the mid-major ranks. I'll take Royce O'Neale, Adam Flagler, MaCio Teague, Freddie Gillespie, etc. any day.

Other than struggling on the defensive end, which has been true of literally every Baylor guard the past two years, Nunn was essentially the player we thought we were getting. He was brought in to be a good role player and he was one.

But our problem wasn't our role players. It was that we had too many role players. We had a plate full of side dishes and no main course. Dennis, Love and Walter filled that role in varying degrees during our season-opening win streak and then we only saw it in spurts the rest of the season.

I'm tired of having to rely on freshmen to be that guy to reach a championship level. They almost never are.

IvanBear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I don't remember it the same. Again, think the hype was slightly less but not by much.

---

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Slightly less than what?

Jayden Nunn was a role player in the Atlantic 10 at VCU. Anyone who thought he was going to come to Baylor and be a star had wholly unrealistic expectations.

Nunn was a much better player for Baylor this past season than he was in either of his two seasons at VCU. Any disappointment regarding his performance (once he got over his slow start to Big 12 play) is/was unjustified.

---

I'm disappointed Drew had to reach down to VCU level talent to fill a starting role on our Roster. Not in Nunn's performance, I think he's fine for his talent level, I just don't think he's a quality Big 12 guard.

People talked up his defensive chops though when he hit the portal. He was also listed as a point guard, but it's painfully obvious he's not capable of playing the point. There's legitimate reasons to be disappointed in his performance this year. Much like Walter he didn't show up against the competition that mattered most, but unlike Walter, no one pretends he has the same talent level so he does get more of a pass.

---

We got Flagler from Presbyterian. There is talent everywhere.

bear2be2 said:

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IvanBear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I don't remember it the same. Again, think the hype was slightly less but not by much.

---

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Slightly less than what?

Jayden Nunn was a role player in the Atlantic 10 at VCU. Anyone who thought he was going to come to Baylor and be a star had wholly unrealistic expectations.

Nunn was a much better player for Baylor this past season than he was in either of his two seasons at VCU. Any disappointment regarding his performance (once he got over his slow start to Big 12 play) is/was unjustified.

---

I'm disappointed Drew had to reach down to VCU level talent to fill a starting role on our Roster. Not in Nunn's performance, I think he's fine for his talent level, I just don't think he's a quality Big 12 guard.

People talked up his defensive chops though when he hit the portal. He was also listed as a point guard, but it's painfully obvious he's not capable of playing the point. There's legitimate reasons to be disappointed in his performance this year. Much like Walter he didn't show up against the competition that mattered most, but unlike Walter, no one pretends he has the same talent level so he does get more of a pass.

---

We've had this conversation before, and I couldn't disagree more with your first sentence. There is talent at all levels of college basketball, and many of our best transfers have come from the mid-major ranks. I'll take Royce O'Neale, Adam Flagler, MaCio Teague, Freddie Gillespie, etc. any day.

Other than struggling on the defensive end, which has been true of literally every Baylor guard the past two years, Nunn was essentially the player we thought we were getting. He was brought in to be a good role player and he was one.

But our problem wasn't our role players. It was that we had too many role players. We had a plate full of side dishes and no main course. Dennis, Love and Walter filled that role in varying degrees during our season-opening win streak and then we only saw it in spurts the rest of the season.

I'm tired of having to rely on freshmen to be that guy to reach a championship level. They almost never are.

---

You're completely taking my point out of context to draw the conclusion I don't think there's not talent at lower schools. I don't think Nunn had the career at VCU that screams he would project to anything more than what he's been which isn't a quality big 12 guard.

Comparing him to guys like Teague, Gillespie, Flagler, and O'Neale, is a massive disservice to those guys. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but two things are clear right now: (1) He's not a defensive minded point guard, he's basically just a slashing 2 guard. (2) He didn't show last year why he landed a starting role on a big 12 roster. He was the 4th best guard on our team last year, he showed flashes when he was able to find space and take a shot in rhythm.

But lets not pretend he was a clearly identified target from the get go like a number of those guys you mentioned. He was offered after we whiffed on other recruits or transfers.

EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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IvanBear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I don't remember it the same. Again, think the hype was slightly less but not by much.

---

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Slightly less than what?

Jayden Nunn was a role player in the Atlantic 10 at VCU. Anyone who thought he was going to come to Baylor and be a star had wholly unrealistic expectations.

Nunn was a much better player for Baylor this past season than he was in either of his two seasons at VCU. Any disappointment regarding his performance (once he got over his slow start to Big 12 play) is/was unjustified.

---

I'm disappointed Drew had to reach down to VCU level talent to fill a starting role on our Roster. Not in Nunn's performance, I think he's fine for his talent level, I just don't think he's a quality Big 12 guard.

People talked up his defensive chops though when he hit the portal. He was also listed as a point guard, but it's painfully obvious he's not capable of playing the point. There's legitimate reasons to be disappointed in his performance this year. Much like Walter he didn't show up against the competition that mattered most, but unlike Walter, no one pretends he has the same talent level so he does get more of a pass.

---

We got Flagler from Presbyterian. There is talent everywhere.

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We got Freddie Gillespie from a Division III school.

IvanBear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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IvanBear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I don't remember it the same. Again, think the hype was slightly less but not by much.

---

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Slightly less than what?

Jayden Nunn was a role player in the Atlantic 10 at VCU. Anyone who thought he was going to come to Baylor and be a star had wholly unrealistic expectations.

Nunn was a much better player for Baylor this past season than he was in either of his two seasons at VCU. Any disappointment regarding his performance (once he got over his slow start to Big 12 play) is/was unjustified.

---

I'm disappointed Drew had to reach down to VCU level talent to fill a starting role on our Roster. Not in Nunn's performance, I think he's fine for his talent level, I just don't think he's a quality Big 12 guard.

People talked up his defensive chops though when he hit the portal. He was also listed as a point guard, but it's painfully obvious he's not capable of playing the point. There's legitimate reasons to be disappointed in his performance this year. Much like Walter he didn't show up against the competition that mattered most, but unlike Walter, no one pretends he has the same talent level so he does get more of a pass.

---

We've had this conversation before, and I couldn't disagree more with your first sentence. There is talent at all levels of college basketball, and many of our best transfers have come from the mid-major ranks. I'll take Royce O'Neale, Adam Flagler, MaCio Teague, Freddie Gillespie, etc. any day.

Other than struggling on the defensive end, which has been true of literally every Baylor guard the past two years, Nunn was essentially the player we thought we were getting. He was brought in to be a good role player and he was one.

But our problem wasn't our role players. It was that we had too many role players. We had a plate full of side dishes and no main course. Dennis, Love and Walter filled that role in varying degrees during our season-opening win streak and then we only saw it in spurts the rest of the season.

I'm tired of having to rely on freshmen to be that guy to reach a championship level. They almost never are.

---

You're completely taking my point out of context to draw the conclusion I don't think there's not talent at lower schools. I don't think Nunn had the career at VCU that screams he would project to anything more than what he's been which isn't a quality big 12 guard.

Comparing him to guys like Teague, Gillespie, Flagler, and O'Neale, is a massive disservice to those guys. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but two things are clear right now: (1) He's not a defensive minded point guard, he's basically just a slashing 2 guard. (2) He didn't show last year why he landed a starting role on a big 12 roster. He was the 4th best guard on our team last year, he showed flashes when he was able to find space and take a shot in rhythm.

But lets not pretend he was a clearly identified target from the get go like a number of those guys you mentioned. He was offered after we whiffed on other recruits or transfers.

---

You have a really warped view of Jayden Nunn that I don't think many here would agree with. He was a good player for us this past season. Without him, we don't accomplish what we did.

You act like the guy was a scrub when that wasn't the case at all. He was a really solid, albeit unspectacular, Big 12 shooting guard. And he'll likely be a much better player next year than he was this past one. I don't get the Jayden Nunn hate at all.

I think it's safe to say that in general we all have been disappointed with our defense the past three seasons. Maybe part if the problem is that our defense was at such a high level in 2021 with Mitchell & Vital playing lights out consistently while also elevating the rest of the team. (The year before we had Gillespie playing great defense.) It's a very high bar to reach. I'm not saying that anyone expected the same level of performance but maybe some of us have higher expectations because of how stellar it was then.

historian said:

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I think it's safe to say that in general we all have been disappointed with our defense the past three seasons. Maybe part if the problem is that our defense was at such a high level in 2021 with Mitchell & Vital playing lights out consistently while also elevating the rest of the team. (The year before we had Gillespie playing great defense.) It's a very high bar to reach. I'm not saying that anyone expected the same level of performance but maybe some of us have higher expectations because of how stellar it was then.

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The 2022 team was really good defensively. It took a big hit when EJ went down, but it was still a plus defensive team without him. The last two have taken a giant step back to the early Drew teams, though, and that needs to be addressed if we hope to be anything more than a third- or fourth-place Big 12 team, which comes with a Sweet 16 ceiling most years.

I totally understand people not getting excited about defense from a freshman. I will say VJ has a different motor and is much more athletic. It's crazy to watch him because he is so calm and looks like he isn't even trying lolol

I don't know if we have seen this type of athleticism.

Go watch this

Most NBA scouts had already left Houston before last night’s game, after watching 3 practices and 1 scrimmage in the days prior.

VJ Edgecombe was a player who clearly made an impression with them.

📺 https://t.co/0Vf3sp5VoF pic.twitter.com/sIIvWbfwGn

— Adam Finkelstein (@AdamFinkelstein) April 3, 2024

I have no memory of Bear2BeBe criticizing Dennis. Please post the link. All I remember is effusive praise.

Nunn's spatial ability is low, which is why he can't pass and gets lost on defense. His athleticism is very good.

I have to disagree with the concept the defensive issues are about coaching…They are about recruiting. We had top defensive teams prior to the last two seasons.

I like our talented freshman.

bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I'm not saying he will be a plus defender. I have never seen Edge play. But your obsession with bashing our freshmen is weird and borderline obsessive. We had multiple poor / bad defenders the past few years who were upperclassmen...but you continue to target only the freshmen.

---

Who have I bashed? Taking a wait-and-see approach on a player who has never played a second of college basketball isn't bashing by any definition. You're just being overly defensive as usual.

But few here have contributed more to the Baylor preseason hype --> in-season excuse cycle than you have. I don't understand your insistence on repeating this pattern every year.

You know why I like juniors and seniors? Because they don't need excuses made for them. When they stink, no one feels a need to rationalize why that's so. We say they need to be better and move on. It's only with freshman that we feel a need to create reasons/excuses for why they can't do the job they're being asked (and now, paid very well) to do.

---

I'm not sure what the bolded part even means. I have not made excuses for any of these freshmen. I have said all along that one-and-done players should be supplemental pieces, not saviors to carry the team. I have said repeatedly our recruiting misses with transfers and upperclassmen have hurt our program because then we have no choice but to force the freshmen into bigger roles. You have been the one who keeps saying the freshmen must be the stars who carry the team or they are not worth the trouble. Unrealistic expectations from folks like you are why so much blame is placed on the freshmen when they don't play like a prime Michael Jordan as 19 year old freshmen.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I'm not saying he will be a plus defender. I have never seen Edge play. But your obsession with bashing our freshmen is weird and borderline obsessive. We had multiple poor / bad defenders the past few years who were upperclassmen...but you continue to target only the freshmen.

---

Who have I bashed? Taking a wait-and-see approach on a player who has never played a second of college basketball isn't bashing by any definition. You're just being overly defensive as usual.

But few here have contributed more to the Baylor preseason hype --> in-season excuse cycle than you have. I don't understand your insistence on repeating this pattern every year.

You know why I like juniors and seniors? Because they don't need excuses made for them. When they stink, no one feels a need to rationalize why that's so. We say they need to be better and move on. It's only with freshman that we feel a need to create reasons/excuses for why they can't do the job they're being asked (and now, paid very well) to do.

---

I'm not sure what the bolded part even means. I have not made excuses for any of these freshmen. I have said all along that one-and-done players should be supplemental pieces, not saviors to carry the team. I have said repeatedly our recruiting misses with transfers and upperclassmen have hurt our program because then we have no choice but to force the freshmen into bigger roles. You have been the one who keeps saying the freshmen must be the stars who carry the team or they are not worth the trouble. Unrealistic expectations from folks like you are why so much blame is placed on the freshmen when they don't play like a prime Michael Jordan as 19 year old freshmen.

---

You're making an excuse in this post. Our freshmen aren't forced into any role. They're being brought in to be high-usage players. Much more so than the role player transfers you're trying to saddle with the blame, who almost all have been for us what they were for their previous schools.

These one-and-done freshmen are promised a ton of minutes and a premier role in our offense. That's why they're coming to Baylor. They know they'll get "showcased" and that our staff will give them far more freedom than most other elite staffs would. That these guys aren't up to the roles they're allowed and encouraged to play only proves the point I've been making all along. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

We're handing the keys of our season every year over to players who aren't equipped to handle that level of responsibility. And the results are becoming increasingly predictable.

bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I'm not saying he will be a plus defender. I have never seen Edge play. But your obsession with bashing our freshmen is weird and borderline obsessive. We had multiple poor / bad defenders the past few years who were upperclassmen...but you continue to target only the freshmen.

---

Who have I bashed? Taking a wait-and-see approach on a player who has never played a second of college basketball isn't bashing by any definition. You're just being overly defensive as usual.

But few here have contributed more to the Baylor preseason hype --> in-season excuse cycle than you have. I don't understand your insistence on repeating this pattern every year.

You know why I like juniors and seniors? Because they don't need excuses made for them. When they stink, no one feels a need to rationalize why that's so. We say they need to be better and move on. It's only with freshman that we feel a need to create reasons/excuses for why they can't do the job they're being asked (and now, paid very well) to do.

---

I'm not sure what the bolded part even means. I have not made excuses for any of these freshmen. I have said all along that one-and-done players should be supplemental pieces, not saviors to carry the team. I have said repeatedly our recruiting misses with transfers and upperclassmen have hurt our program because then we have no choice but to force the freshmen into bigger roles. You have been the one who keeps saying the freshmen must be the stars who carry the team or they are not worth the trouble. Unrealistic expectations from folks like you are why so much blame is placed on the freshmen when they don't play like a prime Michael Jordan as 19 year old freshmen.

---

You're making an excuse in this post. Our freshmen aren't forced into any role. They're being brought in to be high-usage players. Much more so than the role player transfers you're trying to saddle with the blame, who almost all have been for us what they were for their previous schools.

These one-and-done freshmen are promised a ton of minutes and a premier role in our offense. That's why they're coming to Baylor. They know they'll get "showcased" and that our staff will give them far more freedom than most other elite staffs would. That these guys aren't up to the roles they're allowed and encouraged to play only proves the point I've been making all along. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

We're handing the keys of our season every year over to players who aren't equipped to handle that level of responsibility. And the results are becoming increasingly predictable.

---

High useage roles were only true for Walter and Key, because guards play a high usage role in our offense not matter their classification. Guards under CSD are the engine that runs our offense, while wing players play a complementary role and our 5 is primarily a pick-and-roll big who doesn't get post touches outside of lobs and offensive put backs.

Missi, Kendall, and Sochan (until the very end of his freshman year) did NOT play high usage roles. They were not showcased. They were role players because our system is primarily guard-oriented.

That is not an excuse, that is reality.

I do expect Edge to play a high usage role for us next year, not because he is being showcased, but because he is a guard playing in our guard-oriented system. And the first poor shooting night I expect you on the game threads complaining about how CSD doesn't know how to construct a roster.