Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I'm not saying he will be a plus defender. I have never seen Edge play. But your obsession with bashing our freshmen is weird and borderline obsessive. We had multiple poor / bad defenders the past few years who were upperclassmen...but you continue to target only the freshmen.

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Who have I bashed? Taking a wait-and-see approach on a player who has never played a second of college basketball isn't bashing by any definition. You're just being overly defensive as usual.

But few here have contributed more to the Baylor preseason hype --> in-season excuse cycle than you have. I don't understand your insistence on repeating this pattern every year.

You know why I like juniors and seniors? Because they don't need excuses made for them. When they stink, no one feels a need to rationalize why that's so. We say they need to be better and move on. It's only with freshman that we feel a need to create reasons/excuses for why they can't do the job they're being asked (and now, paid very well) to do.

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I'm not sure what the bolded part even means. I have not made excuses for any of these freshmen. I have said all along that one-and-done players should be supplemental pieces, not saviors to carry the team. I have said repeatedly our recruiting misses with transfers and upperclassmen have hurt our program because then we have no choice but to force the freshmen into bigger roles. You have been the one who keeps saying the freshmen must be the stars who carry the team or they are not worth the trouble. Unrealistic expectations from folks like you are why so much blame is placed on the freshmen when they don't play like a prime Michael Jordan as 19 year old freshmen.

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You're making an excuse in this post. Our freshmen aren't forced into any role. They're being brought in to be high-usage players. Much more so than the role player transfers you're trying to saddle with the blame, who almost all have been for us what they were for their previous schools.

These one-and-done freshmen are promised a ton of minutes and a premier role in our offense. That's why they're coming to Baylor. They know they'll get "showcased" and that our staff will give them far more freedom than most other elite staffs would. That these guys aren't up to the roles they're allowed and encouraged to play only proves the point I've been making all along. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

We're handing the keys of our season every year over to players who aren't equipped to handle that level of responsibility. And the results are becoming increasingly predictable.

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High useage roles were only true for Walter and Key, because guards play a high usage role in our offense not matter their classification. Guards under CSD are the engine that runs our offense, while wing players play a complementary role and our 5 is primarily a pick-and-roll big who doesn't get post touches outside of lobs and offensive put backs.

Missi, Kendall, and Sochan (until the very end of his freshman year) did NOT play high usage roles. They were not showcased. They were role players because our system is primarily guard-oriented.

That is not an excuse, that is reality.

I do expect Edge to play a high usage role for us next year, not because he is being showcased, but because he is a guard playing in our guard-oriented system. And the first poor shooting night I expect you on the game threads complaining about how CSD doesn't know how to construct a roster.

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I don't have to watch a game next year to know that with two freshmen getting heavy minutes and one likely leading us in field goal attempts, we're likely going to top out around 24 or 25 wins, a third- or fourth-place conference finish and first weekend tournament exit. You can be surprised by it if you want, but we've seen this movie before.

We'll have a good, not great team once again next season (I'm actually expecting a slight step back unless we get a monster portal haul) and to be replacing most of our roster once again in 2025.

I'll root -- as I do every season -- against my expectations. But those are my expectations at this point.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I'm not saying he will be a plus defender. I have never seen Edge play. But your obsession with bashing our freshmen is weird and borderline obsessive. We had multiple poor / bad defenders the past few years who were upperclassmen...but you continue to target only the freshmen.

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Who have I bashed? Taking a wait-and-see approach on a player who has never played a second of college basketball isn't bashing by any definition. You're just being overly defensive as usual.

But few here have contributed more to the Baylor preseason hype --> in-season excuse cycle than you have. I don't understand your insistence on repeating this pattern every year.

You know why I like juniors and seniors? Because they don't need excuses made for them. When they stink, no one feels a need to rationalize why that's so. We say they need to be better and move on. It's only with freshman that we feel a need to create reasons/excuses for why they can't do the job they're being asked (and now, paid very well) to do.

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I'm not sure what the bolded part even means. I have not made excuses for any of these freshmen. I have said all along that one-and-done players should be supplemental pieces, not saviors to carry the team. I have said repeatedly our recruiting misses with transfers and upperclassmen have hurt our program because then we have no choice but to force the freshmen into bigger roles. You have been the one who keeps saying the freshmen must be the stars who carry the team or they are not worth the trouble. Unrealistic expectations from folks like you are why so much blame is placed on the freshmen when they don't play like a prime Michael Jordan as 19 year old freshmen.

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You're making an excuse in this post. Our freshmen aren't forced into any role. They're being brought in to be high-usage players. Much more so than the role player transfers you're trying to saddle with the blame, who almost all have been for us what they were for their previous schools.

These one-and-done freshmen are promised a ton of minutes and a premier role in our offense. That's why they're coming to Baylor. They know they'll get "showcased" and that our staff will give them far more freedom than most other elite staffs would. That these guys aren't up to the roles they're allowed and encouraged to play only proves the point I've been making all along. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

We're handing the keys of our season every year over to players who aren't equipped to handle that level of responsibility. And the results are becoming increasingly predictable.

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High useage roles were only true for Walter and Key, because guards play a high usage role in our offense not matter their classification. Guards under CSD are the engine that runs our offense, while wing players play a complementary role and our 5 is primarily a pick-and-roll big who doesn't get post touches outside of lobs and offensive put backs.

Missi, Kendall, and Sochan (until the very end of his freshman year) did NOT play high usage roles. They were not showcased. They were role players because our system is primarily guard-oriented.

That is not an excuse, that is reality.

I do expect Edge to play a high usage role for us next year, not because he is being showcased, but because he is a guard playing in our guard-oriented system. And the first poor shooting night I expect you on the game threads complaining about how CSD doesn't know how to construct a roster.

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And everyone knows guards are going to be featured in our offense. That fact alone is not adequate justification for the player with the lowest effective field goal percentage on our team leading us in field goal attempts -- as has been the case each of the last two years. It was almost the case in 2022 as well, but Dale Bonner saved Akinjo from that distinction.

What do you mean "justification." I am not trying to justify or make excuses. Guards will always be the highest usage players in our offense, no matter the classification freshman - 5th year senior. That is a simple reality that you continue to ignore in order to push your narrative.

The high number of bad takes on this thread is amazing.

Walter was not a bad defender. He was required to defend players he shouldn't have to defend.
Freshmen perimeter players shouldn't be asked to defend the opposing team's primary or secondary scorers.
Walter was routinely required do do so because our upperclassmen perimeter players were REALLY bad on D.
In a reasonable situation, a starting perimeter freshman would get the #3 [by difficulty] assignment on the opposing perimeter players. Walter routinely was defending #2 and occasionally #1.
Example: in 2021 Mitchell always defended the best O player on opposite team or was at the top of the No Middle D [the hardest position to defend because there is no sideline/baseline help/limitation]. Teague usually defended #2 and Butler #3. If Butler was defending #1 everyone would have screamed he was a terrible defender. He wasn't terrible. But he also wasn't a #1 defender. And Flagler never defended anyone but #3.
This past season Baylor had no #1 defender and often no #2 defender. We had a collection of #3 defenders and one guy who can't drop step effectively after injury.

Folks will be applauding how much better Baylor defenders are this year if we find a true #1 defender in portal. Our players might have improved…..but the real key will be asking them to perform at reasonable levels. Freshmen shouldn't be guarding primary scorers. Anywhere. Any team.

Missi would have ideally logged his minutes against backups not against starters. But EJ only has one leg and Ojianwuna was raw. Oops.

Neither Walter nor Missi were bad defenders. They were freshmen asked to do too much……by need, not by bad coaching.

Not going to be surprised when Baylor grabs three defensive minded players from portal and becomes a Top 2-3 D team in B12 next season.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I'm not saying he will be a plus defender. I have never seen Edge play. But your obsession with bashing our freshmen is weird and borderline obsessive. We had multiple poor / bad defenders the past few years who were upperclassmen...but you continue to target only the freshmen.

---

Who have I bashed? Taking a wait-and-see approach on a player who has never played a second of college basketball isn't bashing by any definition. You're just being overly defensive as usual.

But few here have contributed more to the Baylor preseason hype --> in-season excuse cycle than you have. I don't understand your insistence on repeating this pattern every year.

You know why I like juniors and seniors? Because they don't need excuses made for them. When they stink, no one feels a need to rationalize why that's so. We say they need to be better and move on. It's only with freshman that we feel a need to create reasons/excuses for why they can't do the job they're being asked (and now, paid very well) to do.

---

I'm not sure what the bolded part even means. I have not made excuses for any of these freshmen. I have said all along that one-and-done players should be supplemental pieces, not saviors to carry the team. I have said repeatedly our recruiting misses with transfers and upperclassmen have hurt our program because then we have no choice but to force the freshmen into bigger roles. You have been the one who keeps saying the freshmen must be the stars who carry the team or they are not worth the trouble. Unrealistic expectations from folks like you are why so much blame is placed on the freshmen when they don't play like a prime Michael Jordan as 19 year old freshmen.

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You're making an excuse in this post. Our freshmen aren't forced into any role. They're being brought in to be high-usage players. Much more so than the role player transfers you're trying to saddle with the blame, who almost all have been for us what they were for their previous schools.

These one-and-done freshmen are promised a ton of minutes and a premier role in our offense. That's why they're coming to Baylor. They know they'll get "showcased" and that our staff will give them far more freedom than most other elite staffs would. That these guys aren't up to the roles they're allowed and encouraged to play only proves the point I've been making all along. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

We're handing the keys of our season every year over to players who aren't equipped to handle that level of responsibility. And the results are becoming increasingly predictable.

---

High useage roles were only true for Walter and Key, because guards play a high usage role in our offense not matter their classification. Guards under CSD are the engine that runs our offense, while wing players play a complementary role and our 5 is primarily a pick-and-roll big who doesn't get post touches outside of lobs and offensive put backs.

Missi, Kendall, and Sochan (until the very end of his freshman year) did NOT play high usage roles. They were not showcased. They were role players because our system is primarily guard-oriented.

That is not an excuse, that is reality.

I do expect Edge to play a high usage role for us next year, not because he is being showcased, but because he is a guard playing in our guard-oriented system. And the first poor shooting night I expect you on the game threads complaining about how CSD doesn't know how to construct a roster.

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You're calling two guys who were top five in minutes low usage? That's pretty absurd. Brown and Sochan averaged more minutes than 2 starters! Including a guy you'd probably say was high usage in Mayer.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/baylor/men/2022.html (just sort by minutes per game)

You understand most positions don't play with the ball in their hand, but that doesn't make them low usage. They have defensive assignments, assignments on offense to create space and get open for shots along with rebounding.

We know Sochan wasn't promised minutes though he was just too good to keep off the court. Meanwhile Kendall Brown was absolutely promised minutes to get him to come to Baylor.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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What do you mean "justification." I am not trying to justify or make excuses. Guards will always be the highest usage players in our offense, no matter the classification freshman - 5th year senior. That is a simple reality that you continue to ignore in order to push your narrative.

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As is most often the case, there are levels to this. Yes, guards are high-usage players in our offense. But some have higher usage rates than others.

And there is no good reason for a freshman to lead our team in usage rate while bringing up the rear in effective field goal percentage, particularly while being surrounded by older, more efficient offensive players. That only happens for one of two reasons -- either it's encouraged or it's tolerated.

To act like these guys just happen into these roles is disingenuous. We're bringing these five-star freshmen in to be centerpieces. And if they're not up to that task (and few are), we end up with frustratingly inconsistent teams with limited ceilings.

By usage, I meant offensive responsibilty (shot attempts) not minutes played. The offense and scoring was built around Akinjo, Flagler, and Cryer that year.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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By usage, I meant offensive responsibilty (shot attempts) not minutes played. The offense and scoring was built around Akinjo, Flagler, and Cryer that year.

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In 2022, Akinjo's usage rate was too high for how dismal his percentages were, but it was really well spread out otherwise. That was a good, deep team until injuries took their toll.

The last two years, George and Walter have been too big a part of the offense for what they were ready to provide. And even Missi was third in usage percentage this year behind Walter and Dennis, though his efficiency numbers justified it. The only issue I had with Yves offensively were his black hole post ups. If the ball went into him, it was never coming out.

Nunn and especially Bridges were underutilized in our offense. Bridges should have been a focal point. His personality contributed to his inconsistent usage, but there were way too many possessions where he never touched the ball. A guy with his scoring efficiency should not be your sixth option by usage percentage.

I fully agree on Bridges. I have always thought he has NBA talent and I said that all year about him, that he was our X factor and should have been featured more offensively.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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I fully agree on Bridges. I have always thought he has NBA talent and I said that all year about him, that he was our X factor and should have been featured more offensively.

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I think we often tried to feature him offensively, he would get a lot of touches early game and do nothing. There's no reason to keep going back to a well that didn't produce.

I agree. Unfortunately he was super inconsistent with his effort. But when he was on, he would carry us.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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I agree. Unfortunately he was super inconsistent with his effort. But when he was on, he would carry us.

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He's a hard guy to evaluate, he did a lot of really good things for us, but he's also a bust because his talent level certainly suggests he should have been our best player this year and probably last year. It's sad it seems to all be pinned on his effort level, I think it's more than just him being lazy actively I think he's just kind of a passive occasionally lazy guy, the mentality shift required to be an elite basketball player never occurred.

I actually think he is much better suited for the NBA than for college, if he ever gets that opportunity. Prototyipcal 3 and D wing defender who is super efficient in shooting corner 3s. Won't be asked to create offensively at the next level so his passivity on offense won't hurt his value.

I agree with this. I think the lack of energy was not a character thing. It was more a reflection on simply a laid back personality type. Yet was still our best defender and a willing and improving rebounder.

Still think he's a possible fit in the league. I believe he helped himself with a few of those big offensive games, usually against good competition. Won't be asked to do too much and can sit back, spread the floor, and knock down shots. Will have to pick up the motor a little bit on the defensive end but other than that would not be surprised if Jalen sticks in the league.

IvanBear said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I agree. Unfortunately he was super inconsistent with his effort. But when he was on, he would carry us.

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He's a hard guy to evaluate, he did a lot of really good things for us, but he's also a bust because his talent level certainly suggests he should have been our best player this year and probably last year. It's sad it seems to all be pinned on his effort level, I think it's more than just him being lazy actively I think he's just kind of a passive occasionally lazy guy, the mentality shift required to be an elite basketball player never occurred.

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I don't think there's any standard by which Jalen Bridges could be considered a bust. He was a much better player for us than he was at West Virginia and got better every year of his career. He didn't have the mentality to be an alpha scorer, but he filled the role he was recruited to fill remarkably well.

His elite offensive games were spotty/inconsistent. But there wasn't a player on our team this season -- or from conference play on last year -- that did his specific job as consistently well as Jalen Bridges did.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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I fully agree on Bridges. I have always thought he has NBA talent and I said that all year about him, that he was our X factor and should have been featured more offensively.

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It's funny how closely my opinion arc on Royce O'Neale, Jalen Bridges and Jayden Nunn aligns. In all three cases, I wasn't sure in the first half of their first season with us whether they were up to the roles we recruited them for. And by the end of their first season in all three cases, they were one of my favorite players on the team.

That transition just takes time, which is why it's nice IMO to have transfers for more than one year. Those guys almost always make significant jumps from Year 1 to Year 2. I'm excited about what Jayden Nunn can be for us next season. If he continues to improve, he'll be an excellent player for us, just as Bridges was from Day 1 this year.

Fully agree. Not sure why the negativity on Nunn either. He proved to be a quality big 12 starter and will only be better for us next year.

bear2be2 said:

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IvanBear said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I agree. Unfortunately he was super inconsistent with his effort. But when he was on, he would carry us.

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He's a hard guy to evaluate, he did a lot of really good things for us, but he's also a bust because his talent level certainly suggests he should have been our best player this year and probably last year. It's sad it seems to all be pinned on his effort level, I think it's more than just him being lazy actively I think he's just kind of a passive occasionally lazy guy, the mentality shift required to be an elite basketball player never occurred.

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I don't think there's any standard by which Jalen Bridges could be considered a bust. He was a much better player for us than he was at West Virginia and got better every year of his career. He didn't have the mentality to be an alpha scorer, but he filled the role he was recruited to fill remarkably well.

His elite offensive games were spotty/inconsistent. But there wasn't a player on our team this season -- or from conference play on last year -- that did his specific job as consistently well as Jalen Bridges did.

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He's not a bust he's more just a disappointment relative to the talent he has. He has the talent to be first team big 12, and instead he settled for being a serviceable role player.

A guy like Royce I think continued to see his game grow after he left Baylor, Bridges I think just needs the right style of coaching to get him going at the next level. He's largely got all the aspects of his game he needs to succeeded at college or in the NBA. But maybe he just doesn't care enough, or just needs to find the right coach who can figure out how to push him to be the best version of himself every night.