Do you want to go back to the days of having Willie Sublett and Andre Branch as our stars? No disrespect to them.wongobear said:
4 players leaving to go pro. Next year, we could have a guy on our bench leaving to try and go pro. Probably not, but it could happen that we have 6 players leave to try and play basketball professionally.
Anybody know what we are paying in total for the roster?
He's probably referring to Robert Wright just because of his recruiting ranking. He'll be with us for at least 2 years and most likely 3-4.IvanBear said:
Who on our bench is going to leave early to go pro?
I don't think Evil said anything outlandish. I think everyone generally agrees he will probably be gone after 2-3 years. The only reason he isn't considered a one-and-done from the jump is due to his lack of NBA measurables.IvanBear said:
I swear the Wright hype on this board is reaching really stupid levels.
Is he planning on growing three-plus inches at Baylor? The limiting factors that are keeping him from being a one-and-done aren't going to change over time.Crawfoso1973 said:I don't think Evil said anything outlandish. I think everyone generally agrees he will probably be gone after 2-3 years. The only reason he isn't considered a one-and-done from the jump is due to his lack of NBA measurables.IvanBear said:
I swear the Wright hype on this board is reaching really stupid levels.
I don't think the Roach acquisition can be viewed as an indictment of Wright's abilities. Without Roach, Wright would have been the ONLY player on our roster capable of playing PG. Nunn, Edge, and Love have absolutely no ability to play a single minute at the PG position. No player can be expected to play a full 40 minute game at PG, especially a freshman. The PG position in the big 12 in particular is brutal. Just think of a couple years ago, it was Flagler who get the lion's share of the minutes at PG and Key played mostly off the ball. I expect a similar situation for Wright. I anticipate Wright as the primary PG the 6-8 minutes Roach is out of the game, but I think they will also play quite a few minutes together since CSD has always favored lineups featuring at least 2 combo guards together at the same time. Roach himself is more of a combo guard as opposed to a "true" distributing PG.IvanBear said:
I was discussing the OP not Evil.
This notion that if Wright was taller he'd be a one and done is funny to me. If I was younger and better at basketball I too would be a college player.
I think there are a great many on this board who are putting absurd expectations on Wright, he's a very talented 4 star point guard. I like his game a great deal, I don't think he's some crazy one and done and it's kind of silly to keep acting like the only reason he isn't a one and done is his height.
If that was truly the case he'd be a starter, and I don't think we'd have pursued Roach. Height matters less in college. I'll happily change my tune if he beats out Love and Nunn for a starting role next year, but until that happens lets cool the jets on HE COULD GO PRO!
bear2be2 said:Is he planning on growing three-plus inches at Baylor? The limiting factors that are keeping him from being a one-and-done aren't going to change over time.Crawfoso1973 said:I don't think Evil said anything outlandish. I think everyone generally agrees he will probably be gone after 2-3 years. The only reason he isn't considered a one-and-done from the jump is due to his lack of NBA measurables.IvanBear said:
I swear the Wright hype on this board is reaching really stupid levels.
If he's gone to the NBA after two or three years, it will be a good thing because it will mean he's been so dominant in college that teams are willing to overlook his physical limitations. That's probably not a fair expectation of him, though.
I mostly agree, but if Wright was coming in with the intention to be a 5 star type starter like some people on here keep trying to potray him as we would have had less urgency to plug the point guard position than we clearly had.Crawfoso1973 said:I don't think the Roach acquisition can be viewed as an indictment of Wright's abilities. Without Roach, Wright would have been the ONLY player on our roster capable of playing PG. Nunn, Edge, and Love has absolutely no ability to play a single minute at the PG position. No player can be expected to play a full 40 minute game at PG, especially a freshman. The PG position in the big 12 in particular is brutal. Just think of a couple years ago, it was Flagler who get the lion's share of the minutes at PG and Key played mostly off the ball. I expect a similar situation for Wright. I anticipate Wright as the primary PG the 6-8 minutes Roach is out of the game, but I think they will also play quite a few minutes together since CSD has always favored lineups featuring at least 2 combo guards together at the same time. Roach himself is more of a combo guard as opposed to a "true" distributing PG.IvanBear said:
I was discussing the OP not Evil.
This notion that if Wright was taller he'd be a one and done is funny to me. If I was younger and better at basketball I too would be a college player.
I think there are a great many on this board who are putting absurd expectations on Wright, he's a very talented 4 star point guard. I like his game a great deal, I don't think he's some crazy one and done and it's kind of silly to keep acting like the only reason he isn't a one and done is his height.
If that was truly the case he'd be a starter, and I don't think we'd have pursued Roach. Height matters less in college. I'll happily change my tune if he beats out Love and Nunn for a starting role next year, but until that happens lets cool the jets on HE COULD GO PRO!
Either way, the minutes and role that Wright receives will be earned by December. If Wright tears it up and deserves the minutes, CSD won't look at the stars beside his name and say, "sorry, you're only a 4 star." The young man will get all the minutes he can handle if he earns them. On the other hand, if he doesn't deserve the minutes or isn't quite ready for a major role, CSD won't be forced to play him big minutes. We appear to have a 5 guard rotation for 3 lineup spots so the opportunity is wide open for Wright to earn a decent chunk of minutes if he earns them. We will know pretty early on if he will be exploring the NBA draft process 2 or 3 years in. If so that means he will play well enough on the court to put to rest his shortcomings as far as NBA measurables, which would mean he will be phenomenal on the court. A win/win for Baylor and for the young man.
If we hadn't added Roach, Little would have likely stayed, leaving us with two true point guards -- albeit inexperienced ones at the college level.Crawfoso1973 said:I don't think the Roach acquisition can be viewed as an indictment of Wright's abilities. Without Roach, Wright would have been the ONLY player on our roster capable of playing PG. Nunn, Edge, and Love have absolutely no ability to play a single minute at the PG position. No player can be expected to play a full 40 minute game at PG, especially a freshman. The PG position in the big 12 in particular is brutal. Just think of a couple years ago, it was Flagler who get the lion's share of the minutes at PG and Key played mostly off the ball. I expect a similar situation for Wright. I anticipate Wright as the primary PG the 6-8 minutes Roach is out of the game, but I think they will also play quite a few minutes together since CSD has always favored lineups featuring at least 2 combo guards together at the same time. Roach himself is more of a combo guard as opposed to a "true" distributing PG.IvanBear said:
I was discussing the OP not Evil.
This notion that if Wright was taller he'd be a one and done is funny to me. If I was younger and better at basketball I too would be a college player.
I think there are a great many on this board who are putting absurd expectations on Wright, he's a very talented 4 star point guard. I like his game a great deal, I don't think he's some crazy one and done and it's kind of silly to keep acting like the only reason he isn't a one and done is his height.
If that was truly the case he'd be a starter, and I don't think we'd have pursued Roach. Height matters less in college. I'll happily change my tune if he beats out Love and Nunn for a starting role next year, but until that happens lets cool the jets on HE COULD GO PRO!
Either way, the minutes and role that Wright receives will be earned by December. If Wright tears it up and deserves the minutes, CSD won't look at the stars beside his name and say, "sorry, you're only a 4 star." The young man will get all the minutes he can handle if he earns them. On the other hand, if he doesn't deserve the minutes or isn't quite ready for a major role, CSD won't be forced to play him big minutes. We appear to have a 5 guard rotation for 3 lineup spots so the opportunity is wide open for Wright to earn a decent chunk of minutes if he earns them. We will know pretty early on if he will be exploring the NBA draft process 2 or 3 years in. If so that means he will play well enough on the court to put to rest his shortcomings as far as NBA measurables, which would mean he will be phenomenal on the court. A win/win for Baylor and for the young man.
I fully agree with this. Little was facing another developmental year, and for a team with Final 4 aspirations, he simply wasn't ready for a larger role. Either way we were targeting Roach all along.IvanBear said:
I mean I also just think the evaluation on Little didn't quite pan out like we wanted and he went somewhere he'll get serious minutes. I believe we would have strongly gone after Roach even if Little was ready to be a starting PG next year. That would put Roach in an even better situation offensively.
Little was our 3rd best point guard last season and even after Grimes left and Love went down, he struggled to get minutes because he just couldn't find a way to score or be much more than a body on the court.
I do think he can get to the point where he's a quality starting big 12 point guard, maybe even a very good one, but it was clear the speed of the game was impacting him greatly out there. I sorta think leaving was the only option he had to get minutes. Drew isn't building teams to give players development minutes anymore, he's playing final four or bust now.
One problem with conversations of this type is the tendency to discuss probabilities as absolutes. The NBA draft is constructed where the high draft positions are more often than not dealt to bad teams. When you are abear2be2 said:Is he planning on growing three-plus inches at Baylor? The limiting factors that are keeping him from being a one-and-done aren't going to change over time.Crawfoso1973 said:I don't think Evil said anything outlandish. I think everyone generally agrees he will probably be gone after 2-3 years. The only reason he isn't considered a one-and-done from the jump is due to his lack of NBA measurables.IvanBear said:
I swear the Wright hype on this board is reaching really stupid levels.
If he's gone to the NBA after two or three years, it will be a good thing because it will mean he's been so dominant in college that teams are willing to overlook his physical limitations. That's probably not a fair expectation of him, though.
Since Roach is a combo guard who can play on or off the ball, the quarterback comparison is flawed. Two guards can play in lineups at the same time, whereas two quarterbacks cannot play on the field at the same time.bear2be2 said:
I think we're talking around each other. I'm not making any comment on the decision to add Roach or to not commit to Little. All I'm saying is with or without Roach, we were going to have had two -- and only two -- point guards.
That position is like quarterback on the football side. In the transfer portal era, you're not going to keep more than two good ones on your roster at a time. Every player that gets pushed to No. 3 and out of the rotation is leaving.
I just don't buy your second paragraph, and I think there's a good chance that gets proven this season by Little at Utah. Guys improve with time and experience, and I'll be very surprised if Little doesn't make significant strides this season.IvanBear said:
My point is more it's not so much that little fell to the 3rd point guard spot so he was pushed out by Roach.
It's more that that little wasn't good enough to be a contributor next season in any role. Since Roach isn't a true point guard, there was a very real line up that keeps little and Roach next season that I think would look quite good, but obviously Little isn't ready for major minutes as he showed last year.
I totally get what you're saying I thin the nuance is Raoch isn't a true point little is supposed to be so I don't think Roach specifically had any impact on Little leaving, I think it was far more a commentary about Little in a vacuum.
It's really not flawed at all actually. No backup quarterback is staying to be the third guy behind a Kordell Stewart type either. That he plays other positions while taking their time is irrelevant.Crawfoso1973 said:Since Roach is a combo guard who can play on or off the ball, the quarterback comparison is flawed. Two guards can play in lineups at the same time, whereas two quarterbacks cannot play on the field at the same time.bear2be2 said:
I think we're talking around each other. I'm not making any comment on the decision to add Roach or to not commit to Little. All I'm saying is with or without Roach, we were going to have had two -- and only two -- point guards.
That position is like quarterback on the football side. In the transfer portal era, you're not going to keep more than two good ones on your roster at a time. Every player that gets pushed to No. 3 and out of the rotation is leaving.
Other than Little, who wasn't ready as a freshman, we had one ball-handler on last year's team. And this year's will have two -- Roach and Wright.Crawfoso1973 said:
In football only 1 quarterback will lead a team, as opposed to basketball where multiple guys will get rotation minutes. If Little were ready to contribute he would have gotten minutes playing on or off the ball. We will have 3 lineup spots open for 3 guards which equates to 120 total minutes. Our 3 guard spots in the rotation are interchangeable. In fact CSD has always prefered playing multiple PG/combo guards together at the same time. But Little would have been firmly entrenched as the 6th guard in the rotation behind 5 guys ahead of him for those minutes.
The 3 guards spots don't always require a bigger guard in our rotation. Our championship team had Butler/Teague/Davion/Flagler as our top 4 guards. The year after we were even smaller with Flagler/Key/Cryer. Last year was the first year we had a guard with any size as the third guard. CSD always finds minutes for our best 4 or 5 guards, regardless of size. And at least 2 on the floor usually have PG skills. Little would have gotten time if he would have earned it, regardless of the presence of Roach and Wright.bear2be2 said:Other than Little, who wasn't ready as a freshman, we had one ball-handler on last year's team. And this year's will have two -- Roach and Wright.Crawfoso1973 said:
In football only 1 quarterback will lead a team, as opposed to basketball where multiple guys will get rotation minutes. If Little were ready to contribute he would have gotten minutes playing on or off the ball. We will have 3 lineup spots open for 3 guards which equates to 120 total minutes. Our 3 guard spots in the rotation are interchangeable. In fact CSD has always prefered playing multiple PG/combo guards together at the same time. But Little would have been firmly entrenched as the 6th guard in the rotation behind 5 guys ahead of him for those minutes.
The three guard spots are 100 percent not interchangeable. The one and two sometimes are. The three, while a guard by trade, is a small forward in our rotation. Those players -- it was Walter and Love last year and will be Edgecombe and Love this year -- aren't even capable of handling the ball in a pinch.
He won't do it the same way, but Roach will take over RayJ's role as the primary ball-handler and he'll be on the ball most of the time. When he's not, Wright will be. If for any reason we lose either, we'll be in trouble because Nunn is the only other option there, and he's not a very good one.
It is what it is. This is modern college basketball. Nobody who's capable of running the point well is going to be willing to sit and wait for an opportunity that may or may not come. If you recruit over guys, they'll leave. And if you commit to internal options, transfers won't come. But like the quarterback position in football, you had better nail your point guard decisions because unless you load up on actual combo guards (we have one -- Roach), you'll never be more than two deep with guys you're really comfortable with running your offense.
Teague was the big guard on our title team. He was 6-4 with a 6-10 wingspan.Crawfoso1973 said:The 3 guards spots don't always require a bigger guard in our rotation. Our championship team had Butler/Teague/Davion/Flagler as our top 4 guards. The year after we were even smaller with Flagler/Key/Cryer. Last year was the first year we had a guard with any size as the third guard. CSD always finds minutes for our best 4 or 5 guards, regardless of size. And at least 2 on the floor usually have PG skills. Little would have gotten time if he would have earned it, regardless of the presence of Roach and Wright.bear2be2 said:Other than Little, who wasn't ready as a freshman, we had one ball-handler on last year's team. And this year's will have two -- Roach and Wright.Crawfoso1973 said:
In football only 1 quarterback will lead a team, as opposed to basketball where multiple guys will get rotation minutes. If Little were ready to contribute he would have gotten minutes playing on or off the ball. We will have 3 lineup spots open for 3 guards which equates to 120 total minutes. Our 3 guard spots in the rotation are interchangeable. In fact CSD has always prefered playing multiple PG/combo guards together at the same time. But Little would have been firmly entrenched as the 6th guard in the rotation behind 5 guys ahead of him for those minutes.
The three guard spots are 100 percent not interchangeable. The one and two sometimes are. The three, while a guard by trade, is a small forward in our rotation. Those players -- it was Walter and Love last year and will be Edgecombe and Love this year -- aren't even capable of handling the ball in a pinch.
He won't do it the same way, but Roach will take over RayJ's role as the primary ball-handler and he'll be on the ball most of the time. When he's not, Wright will be. If for any reason we lose either, we'll be in trouble because Nunn is the only other option there, and he's not a very good one.
It is what it is. This is modern college basketball. Nobody who's capable of running the point well is going to be willing to sit and wait for an opportunity that may or may not come. If you recruit over guys, they'll leave. And if you commit to internal options, transfers won't come. But like the quarterback position in football, you had better nail your point guard decisions because unless you load up on actual combo guards (we have one -- Roach), you'll never be more than two deep with guys you're really comfortable with running your offense.
Little wasn't ready as a freshman. I just have an issue making a blanket statement that he won't be capable of contributing as a sophomore.Crawfoso1973 said:
True that Teague was a longer guard. The other 3 played together a lot with Teague resting. Point being, CSD has never been afraid to play smaller combo guards together for long stretches of games. Little himself was a bigger body and would have gotten the minutes if he deserved them instead of the 5 guys ahead of him in the rotation.
That's the point, Little wasn't expected to be a developmental freshman, we went into the season hoping he would contribute. He wasn't ready.bear2be2 said:Little wasn't ready as a freshman. I just have an issue making a blanket statement that he won't be capable of contributing as a sophomore.Crawfoso1973 said:
True that Teague was a longer guard. The other 3 played together a lot with Teague resting. Point being, CSD has never been afraid to play smaller combo guards together for long stretches of games. Little himself was a bigger body and would have gotten the minutes if he deserved them instead of the 5 guys ahead of him in the rotation.
That's not to say we should not have pursued Roach or should have committed to Little. But we should stop recruiting developmental freshman altogether if we're going to decide after a handful of minutes as freshman that they can't help us. It's a waste of time and effort.
Most freshmen are developmental players. We've let a handful of one-and-dones skew our perspectives on what young players should or should not be.IvanBear said:That's the point, Little wasn't expected to be a developmental freshman, we went into the season hoping he would contribute. He wasn't ready.bear2be2 said:Little wasn't ready as a freshman. I just have an issue making a blanket statement that he won't be capable of contributing as a sophomore.Crawfoso1973 said:
True that Teague was a longer guard. The other 3 played together a lot with Teague resting. Point being, CSD has never been afraid to play smaller combo guards together for long stretches of games. Little himself was a bigger body and would have gotten the minutes if he deserved them instead of the 5 guys ahead of him in the rotation.
That's not to say we should not have pursued Roach or should have committed to Little. But we should stop recruiting developmental freshman altogether if we're going to decide after a handful of minutes as freshman that they can't help us. It's a waste of time and effort.
No I agree, but lets be realistic even AJ Walton played most of his games as a freshman and averaged 17 mpg. AJ walton was not a great player by any stretch.bear2be2 said:Most freshmen are developmental players. We've let a handful of one-and-dones skew our perspectives on what young players should or should not be.IvanBear said:That's the point, Little wasn't expected to be a developmental freshman, we went into the season hoping he would contribute. He wasn't ready.bear2be2 said:Little wasn't ready as a freshman. I just have an issue making a blanket statement that he won't be capable of contributing as a sophomore.Crawfoso1973 said:
True that Teague was a longer guard. The other 3 played together a lot with Teague resting. Point being, CSD has never been afraid to play smaller combo guards together for long stretches of games. Little himself was a bigger body and would have gotten the minutes if he deserved them instead of the 5 guys ahead of him in the rotation.
That's not to say we should not have pursued Roach or should have committed to Little. But we should stop recruiting developmental freshman altogether if we're going to decide after a handful of minutes as freshman that they can't help us. It's a waste of time and effort.
Many of the best players in the Scott Drew era wouldn't have lasted more than one year in our program if we ran it then like we do now. That's not a good thing IMO.
