BaylorBears_254 said:

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Lol Flash, they dont listen!

Lebron literally sent every team in the East into rebuild mode or made them do something to change their team.

Boston, Indiana, Detroit, New York, Toronto, Phili, Chicago, Atlanta, all of which Lebron torched and made their franchise look bad.

Lebron has lost 1 FINALS, in which i completely say he choked, and that was that Mavs series.

Lebron could very easily be looking at a 5-3 Finals record.
That Mavs series and the 1st finals against GS where Kyrie and Love were injured.

Lebron and the Lakers were headed for a Top 2-4 finish had it not been for the injuries to literally every player on the roster.

I expect the Lakers to be better next year, and also have Leonard alongside Lebron. They just have to stay healthy.

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Don't forget the Wizards. Lebron tormented them for three straight years in the playoffs, sort of like his more recent history against the Raptors. There was so much hate between the Cavs and that team, it was awesome playoff basketball. They were a good squad too. Antawn Jameson in his prime, Gilbert Arenas in his prime, Deshawn Stevenson being an idiot. Those are great memories.

Sorry sir but I need your help. Would you kindly hold this championship ring for me - all my fingers are full at the moment.

- Bill Russell

BaylorBears_254 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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FormerFlash said:

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bear2be2 said:

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FormerFlash said:

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This argument is always intriguing to me because people are very quick to make bold declarations that are pure conjecture. "If Lebron was in the West, he'd never do...". The only problem is, Lebron wasn't in the West so we'll never know. Here is what I do know. The last 8 years when Lebron was dominating the East, star after star signed in the West seemingly to avoid the Lebron juggernaut. No one has ever been able to give me a good answer to the following question. If the East was such a cakewalk, and the West was such a brutal death march, why didn't any of those elite players in the West ever sign with an East team as a free agent in order to give themselves an easier path to a championship?

For what it's worth, I do think the West is a horrific grind to reach the finals and the teams are better. I just think Lebron is part of the reason for that. He's been the undisputed best player on the planet for almost a decade. Guys would rather deal with 3 or 4 tough west opponents in the playoffs than oust a couple cupcakes and have to deal with Lebron. Now that Lebron has gone west, it'll be interesting to see if we do see some star power shift back east. It's being speculated that that will in fact happen.

And for the record, Jordan never beat an opponent anywhere near as good as the Warriors team Lebron and co. beat. Jordan was favored in every one of his finals. Lebron has been the underdog in most of his. Despite his abysmal finals record, Lebron only lost one they shouldn't have against the Mavericks. Lebron's greatness carried teams that had no business being in the finals to the finals where they would ultimately succumb to a far better west team. Here was the 2007 roster Lebron carried to the finals:
Shannon Brown, Daniel Gibson, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Dwayne Jones, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshall, Ira Newble, Sasha Pavlovic, Scot Pollard, Eric Snow, Anderson Varejao, David Wesley. In what Universe is that a Finals team?

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It's kind of a circular argument because Jordan played in a much tougher Eastern Conference, so it was harder for him to get to the finals, playing the Pistons, Knicks and Pacers of that era.

It would have been fun to see Lebron in the Western Conference during his prime. Watching an aging and often-injured Lebron on a terrible Lakers team doesn't help resolve any of these disputes unfortunately.

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How could you forget some of those Cavs teams Jordan has to contend with?!!! To your second point, I agree that I would have loved to see Lebron in his prime in the West. Hopefully "often-injured" is a gross overstatement and he'll come back 100% healthy next year so we can see what he can do. His injury this year was really the first significant one of his career. I certainly hope it isn't a sign of things to come. At this point, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt he'll be back and be fine as he's been incredible resilient during his 16 year career.

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The Cavs had some really nice seasons during that stretch, but they were perennial underachievers in the playoffs. When you only get past the first round twice in about a 30-year period, you don't get put in the same category as the Michael Jordan Bulls, Patrick Ewing Knicks, Chuck Daly Pistons or Reggie Miller Pacers.

And I hope you're right about Lebron. I'd love to see him get and stay healthy. But time catches up with all of us and basketball, like all other sports, is a young man's game.

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Cavs literally didn't start to put a winning team around Lebron until he came back and they knew his first 7 years there was taken for granted by them.

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You clearly missed the context of the conversation we were having there. That was about the Mark Price/Larry Nance Cavs, not the Lebron James Cavs.

FormerFlash said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Lol Flash, they dont listen!

Lebron literally sent every team in the East into rebuild mode or made them do something to change their team.

Boston, Indiana, Detroit, New York, Toronto, Phili, Chicago, Atlanta, all of which Lebron torched and made their franchise look bad.

Lebron has lost 1 FINALS, in which i completely say he choked, and that was that Mavs series.

Lebron could very easily be looking at a 5-3 Finals record.
That Mavs series and the 1st finals against GS where Kyrie and Love were injured.

Lebron and the Lakers were headed for a Top 2-4 finish had it not been for the injuries to literally every player on the roster.

I expect the Lakers to be better next year, and also have Leonard alongside Lebron. They just have to stay healthy.

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Don't forget the Wizards. Lebron tormented them for three straight years in the playoffs, sort of like his more recent history against the Raptors. There was so much hate between the Cavs and that team, it was awesome playoff basketball. They were a good squad too. Antawn Jameson in his prime, Gilbert Arenas in his prime, Deshawn Stevenson being an idiot. Those are great memories.

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The problem is none of those teams Lebron sent into rebuilding, save maybe the Celtics (who were getting old at the time) would have finished in the top six in the Western Conference in most of those seasons. Lebron's great, no doubt. But the Eastern Conferences he played in were a joke more often than not.

bear2be2 said:

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FormerFlash said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Lol Flash, they dont listen!

Lebron literally sent every team in the East into rebuild mode or made them do something to change their team.

Boston, Indiana, Detroit, New York, Toronto, Phili, Chicago, Atlanta, all of which Lebron torched and made their franchise look bad.

Lebron has lost 1 FINALS, in which i completely say he choked, and that was that Mavs series.

Lebron could very easily be looking at a 5-3 Finals record.
That Mavs series and the 1st finals against GS where Kyrie and Love were injured.

Lebron and the Lakers were headed for a Top 2-4 finish had it not been for the injuries to literally every player on the roster.

I expect the Lakers to be better next year, and also have Leonard alongside Lebron. They just have to stay healthy.

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Don't forget the Wizards. Lebron tormented them for three straight years in the playoffs, sort of like his more recent history against the Raptors. There was so much hate between the Cavs and that team, it was awesome playoff basketball. They were a good squad too. Antawn Jameson in his prime, Gilbert Arenas in his prime, Deshawn Stevenson being an idiot. Those are great memories.

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The problem is none of those teams Lebron sent into rebuilding, save maybe the Celtics (who were getting old at the time) would have finished in the top six in the Western Conference in most of those seasons. Lebron's great, no doubt. But the Eastern Conferences he played in were a joke more often than not.

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Lmao what? Lebron is the one who made the Raptors trade away Demar. New York couldn't win with Melo and Amare. Chicago and Rose couldn't do it. Phili couldn't. Atlanta couldn't as well. But to say that those teams with those players wouldn't compete in the West is crazy.

You can say what you want, but Lebron owned the East. Could it be that he "made" the East look like a joke? Because that's exactly what he did for years straight.

BaylorBears_254 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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FormerFlash said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Lol Flash, they dont listen!

Lebron literally sent every team in the East into rebuild mode or made them do something to change their team.

Boston, Indiana, Detroit, New York, Toronto, Phili, Chicago, Atlanta, all of which Lebron torched and made their franchise look bad.

Lebron has lost 1 FINALS, in which i completely say he choked, and that was that Mavs series.

Lebron could very easily be looking at a 5-3 Finals record.
That Mavs series and the 1st finals against GS where Kyrie and Love were injured.

Lebron and the Lakers were headed for a Top 2-4 finish had it not been for the injuries to literally every player on the roster.

I expect the Lakers to be better next year, and also have Leonard alongside Lebron. They just have to stay healthy.

---

Don't forget the Wizards. Lebron tormented them for three straight years in the playoffs, sort of like his more recent history against the Raptors. There was so much hate between the Cavs and that team, it was awesome playoff basketball. They were a good squad too. Antawn Jameson in his prime, Gilbert Arenas in his prime, Deshawn Stevenson being an idiot. Those are great memories.

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The problem is none of those teams Lebron sent into rebuilding, save maybe the Celtics (who were getting old at the time) would have finished in the top six in the Western Conference in most of those seasons. Lebron's great, no doubt. But the Eastern Conferences he played in were a joke more often than not.

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Lmao what? Indiana didn't go into rebuild? Lebron is the one who made the Raptors trade away Demar. New York couldn't win with Melo and Amare. Chicago and Rose couldn't do it. Phili couldn't. Atlanta couldn't as well. So what did they all do? Rebuild, trade away guys, and fire coaches.

You can say what you want, but Lebron owned the East. Could it be that he "made" the East look like a joke? Because that's exactly what he did for years straight.

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With few exceptions (the Big 3 Celtics being one of them), none of those teams were good. That's the point. Like the Toronto team you're touting here? That's a seventh-place team at best in the West. They couldn't get past the first round of the playoffs in a weak East most years.

If you want to give Lebron credit for breaking up average teams, OK. I'm not sure that's the accomplishment you think it is.

I would think giving him credit for dominating those teams, even with an average or below average supporting cast in some cases, would be enough. But whatever.

You're literally saying every team in the East was trash...you're basically discrediting the man. But whatever

I can name multiple teams that would've competed in the West

Those teams would have competed but most likely had their tails kicked.
Other than the Heat years, he wouldn't have made the Finals.

Mavs had Dirk playing at MVP level and had a better supporting cast other than Wade.
San Antonio choked one away while OKC would have been too stout for LeBron and Cavs.

BaylorBears_254 said:

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You're literally saying every team in the East was trash...you're basically discrediting the man. But whatever

I can name multiple teams that would've competed in the West

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I didn't say trash. I said average. A notion, mind you, that Lebron's finals record would support.

His teams, which were the class of the East, lost to their West counterparts twice as often as they won -- and he went just .500 in Miami, where he was part of a literal super team. What does that say about the Eastern Conference teams Lebron's Cavs and Heat squads were beating in four or five games in a lot of cases?

And just for the record, I'm not a LeBron hater at all. I think he deserves an enormous amount of credit for the title he won in Cleveland and the other four Finals appearances he had there. He carried those teams as far as they got. But he doesn't have nine Finals appearances if he had played his whole career in the West. He just doesn't.

bear2be2 said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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You're literally saying every team in the East was trash...you're basically discrediting the man. But whatever

I can name multiple teams that would've competed in the West

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I didn't say trash. I said average. A notion, mind you, that Lebron's finals record would support.

His teams, which were the class of the East, lost to their West counterparts twice as often as they won -- and he went just .500 in Miami, where he was part of a literal super team. What does that say about the Eastern Conference teams Lebron's Cavs and Heat squads were beating in four or five games in a lot of cases?

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It says a lot about the greatness of Lebron. Yall can bring up the argument of "The East was trash" all you want, but what conversation are we having if Lebron doesn't make those teams look bad? Oh yea, "Lebron couldn't even beat East teams". What you're saying is pretty much making it a lose/lose situation for Lebron and whatever he did/does.

If you draw the"East was weak" card for Lebron because he took care of business, then do the same for Jordan, and any other player/team who owned their conference

bear2be2 said:

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And just for the record, I'm not a LeBron hater at all. I think he deserves an enormous amount of credit for the title he won in Cleveland and the other four Finals appearances he had there. He carried those teams as far as they got. But he doesn't have nine Finals appearances if he had played his whole career in the West. He just doesn't.

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Ok, and with you saying that, we can make the assumptions that Jordan does't have 5 if he plays a team like the Warriors 4 times.

Its just all assumptions. If you hypothetically speak for Lebron, do it for other guys as well. You may not be a hater but you definitely tried to belittle his greatness with your takes.

Lebron never misses playoffs. He just runs out of dream teams to carry on his back.

BaylorBears_254 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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FormerFlash said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Lol Flash, they dont listen!

Lebron literally sent every team in the East into rebuild mode or made them do something to change their team.

Boston, Indiana, Detroit, New York, Toronto, Phili, Chicago, Atlanta, all of which Lebron torched and made their franchise look bad.

Lebron has lost 1 FINALS, in which i completely say he choked, and that was that Mavs series.

Lebron could very easily be looking at a 5-3 Finals record.
That Mavs series and the 1st finals against GS where Kyrie and Love were injured.

Lebron and the Lakers were headed for a Top 2-4 finish had it not been for the injuries to literally every player on the roster.

I expect the Lakers to be better next year, and also have Leonard alongside Lebron. They just have to stay healthy.

---

Don't forget the Wizards. Lebron tormented them for three straight years in the playoffs, sort of like his more recent history against the Raptors. There was so much hate between the Cavs and that team, it was awesome playoff basketball. They were a good squad too. Antawn Jameson in his prime, Gilbert Arenas in his prime, Deshawn Stevenson being an idiot. Those are great memories.

---

The problem is none of those teams Lebron sent into rebuilding, save maybe the Celtics (who were getting old at the time) would have finished in the top six in the Western Conference in most of those seasons. Lebron's great, no doubt. But the Eastern Conferences he played in were a joke more often than not.

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Lmao what? Lebron is the one who made the Raptors trade away Demar. New York couldn't win with Melo and Amare. Chicago and Rose couldn't do it. Phili couldn't. Atlanta couldn't as well. But to say that those teams with those players wouldn't compete in the West is crazy.

You can say what you want, but Lebron owned the East. Could it be that he "made" the East look like a joke? Because that's exactly what he did for years straight.

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Did you seriously throw the Melo/Amare argument out there? Lol

Yes, i threw out that they "couldn't win with Melo and Amare" against Lebron. Where's the lie?

BaylorBears_254 said:

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Yes, i threw out that they "couldn't win with Melo and Amare" against Lebron. Where's the lie?

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There's no lie. It's just extremely faint praise. Everyone but you seems to understand that.

Lebron's a top-two player all-time and his career achievements speak for themselves. There's no need to manufacture accomplishments here, and claiming the East has been anything but consistently weak throughout Lebron's career is a distortion of reality.

BaylorBears_254 said:

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Yes, i threw out that they "couldn't win with Melo and Amare" against Lebron. Where's the lie?

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Those guys hardly won period

Daaamn, Roughneck and Fozzie may be on suicide watch...

Ashley Hodge said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Daaamn, Roughneck and Fozzie may be on suicide watch...

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LOL, tough series for the Celtics. So much promise to end with a fizzle. Better get Unibrow.

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No way Kyrie stays...He looked checked out.

Would be surprised if they went all in for AD and have no commitment from Kyrie

BaylorBears_254 said:

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Ashley Hodge said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Daaamn, Roughneck and Fozzie may be on suicide watch...

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LOL, tough series for the Celtics. So much promise to end with a fizzle. Better get Unibrow.

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No way Kyrie stays...He looked checked out.

Would be surprised if they went all in for AD and have no commitment from Kyrie

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The Celtics should be welcoming that prospect. The dude's a cancer.

bear2be2 said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Ashley Hodge said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Daaamn, Roughneck and Fozzie may be on suicide watch...

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LOL, tough series for the Celtics. So much promise to end with a fizzle. Better get Unibrow.

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No way Kyrie stays...He looked checked out.

Would be surprised if they went all in for AD and have no commitment from Kyrie

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The Celtics should be welcoming that prospect. The dude's a cancer.

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What is this comment based on?

Can we all agree that Paul Pierce is absolutely horrible as an analyst? I've been saying this for years. After game 1 he declared the series over and said Milwaukee would be lucky to win one game saying Boston just had way more talent.

He's so blinded when it comes to anything Celtics. Even beyond that bias, he's just not good.

FormerFlash said:

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bear2be2 said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Ashley Hodge said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Daaamn, Roughneck and Fozzie may be on suicide watch...

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LOL, tough series for the Celtics. So much promise to end with a fizzle. Better get Unibrow.

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No way Kyrie stays...He looked checked out.

Would be surprised if they went all in for AD and have no commitment from Kyrie

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The Celtics should be welcoming that prospect. The dude's a cancer.

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What is this comment based on?

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The fact that his team has been demonstrably better without him the past two seasons and the negative impact his presence clearly had on that team's chemistry this season when healthy.

bear2be2 said:

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FormerFlash said:

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bear2be2 said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Ashley Hodge said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Daaamn, Roughneck and Fozzie may be on suicide watch...

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LOL, tough series for the Celtics. So much promise to end with a fizzle. Better get Unibrow.

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No way Kyrie stays...He looked checked out.

Would be surprised if they went all in for AD and have no commitment from Kyrie

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The Celtics should be welcoming that prospect. The dude's a cancer.

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What is this comment based on?

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The fact that his team has been demonstrably better without him the past two seasons and the negative impact his presence clearly had on that team's chemistry this season when healthy.

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Some of that could just be the mix of talent and the way the pieces fit. I truly think Kyrie is, at times, a transcendent talent, but he's also not the brightest bulb. His biggest issue is he's just not a leader. When the team struggles, he doesn't pull others up, his mood goes down. I put him in the same category as Harden. An unbelievable talent who just isn't suited to be the centerpiece of a team in any way other than scoring.

I certainly disagree with the premise they'll be better off without him.

Brad Stevens isn't near the coach fans think he is in the NBA. He admitted he did a poor job. His inexperience dealing with high priced veterans might get him fired. His X and Os aren't any better than the rest. You never hear people say that he's some wizard like Pop (though Pop's GM sure helps).

Now, Kyrie is leaving and Ainge needs to get rid of Brown, Hayward, draft picks and some additional players to go get Davis from New Orleans.

Gotta love the Greek Freak.

xiledinok said:

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Brad Stevens isn't near the coach fans think he is in the NBA. He admitted he did a poor job. His inexperience dealing with high priced veterans might get him fired. His X and Os aren't any better than the rest. You never hear people say that he's some wizard like Pop (though Pop's GM sure helps).

Now, Kyrie is leaving and Ainge needs to get rid of Brown, Hayward, draft picks and some additional players to go get Davis from New Orleans.

Gotta love the Greek Freak.

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This is an interesting topic you raise because outside of the NBA coaching circles, Brad Stevens was regarded as a top tier coach. He was being given a tremendous amount of credit despite very little high level success to show for it. Within NBA coaching circles, there have been articles quoting unnamed coaches that were very annoyed with the level of respect he was being given often criticizing his lack of playoff success. If memory serves me, many felt their are a large number of assistants who have put in a lot of years attempting to earn their way into a head coaching position in the NBA, and that those coaches were overlooked to hire a college coach with no NBA experience when they brought Stevens in.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26702069/kyrie-irving-failed-leadership-tells-story-celtics-failed-season

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26709567/smart-blaming-kyrie-celtics-fall-bs

There's only one thing left to say...CAVS WON THE TRADE!!! Lmao

FormerFlash said:

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xiledinok said:

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Brad Stevens isn't near the coach fans think he is in the NBA. He admitted he did a poor job. His inexperience dealing with high priced veterans might get him fired. His X and Os aren't any better than the rest. You never hear people say that he's some wizard like Pop (though Pop's GM sure helps).

Now, Kyrie is leaving and Ainge needs to get rid of Brown, Hayward, draft picks and some additional players to go get Davis from New Orleans.

Gotta love the Greek Freak.

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This is an interesting topic you raise because outside of the NBA coaching circles, Brad Stevens was regarded as a top tier coach. He was being given a tremendous amount of credit despite very little high level success to show for it. Within NBA coaching circles, there have been articles quoting unnamed coaches that were very annoyed with the level of respect he was being given often criticizing his lack of playoff success. If memory serves me, many felt their are a large number of assistants who have put in a lot of years attempting to earn their way into a head coaching position in the NBA, and that those coaches were overlooked to hire a college coach with no NBA experience when they brought Stevens in.

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There's nothing about his coaching that makes them better. There's no way to catch fire in the NBA playoffs and be a Cinderella like at Butler. He has talent but Tatum hasn't taken the next step and Kyrie doesn't like those inexperienced guys with an inexperienced coach. They are very basic and boring.
Kyrie will be a Knick if KD decides to play for the Knicks.

FormerFlash said:

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http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26709567/smart-blaming-kyrie-celtics-fall-bs

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Kyrie shot 38.5 percent from the field and 31 percent from 3 in the playoffs this year. You don't have even have to get to his leadership to accurately say that he killed the Celtics this postseason. He played like hot garbage, especially in that Bucks series.

Congrats to LeBeta, he got an alpha on his team. May get Kemba as well.

Fozzie said:

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Congrats to LeBeta, he got an alpha on his team. May get Kemba as well.

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LeAlpha got another alpha, and he gonna get ANOTHER Alpha in the Summer when Leonard joins them.

oh and btw Cavs won the trade lmao.

Poor Celtics, lose Kyrie, and lose to Lebron and the Lakers bidding for AD.