Very well said Chibears2 ! Everything you said is exactly correct.

Chibears2 said:

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It IS a different world NOW, and those recruits are certainly getting deals NOW from programs like UConn and LSU, though you are correct in the case of those two coaches, along with Dawn, that the reputation of the coaches carries a lot of weight.

But the $$$ still have to be there now, even for those coaches, so Baylor has to decide if WBB is an area where they want to spend $$ or not. I suspect for right now, we are spending what is a finite amount, on other programs. That may not always be the case, but for now, believe it to be so.

I think we should be grateful for the coach we have and pray that she makes it work, because any coach you feel might be an upgrade isn't going to a program where their recruiting is hamstrung by lack of $$ to offer a recruit. And it DOES hamstring recruiting. Just look to the lessons of our football program to confirm that.

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A lot of good points.

I'll add my thoughts. I think the head coach matters if that head coach is considered elite and has the track record to prove it. Although sometimes that isn't always enough. Kim missed out on a lot of high-level targets we thought we might or even expected to get. Was it the school, Baylor? Who knows, but Van Lith brings up an interesting situation. She turned Kim down at Baylor, but goes to her at LSU. The coach was the same. Was it the school (LSU), NIL, or the conference that caused her to join KM at LSU?

The head coach at Stanford certainly seems to have mattered. Tara retired and Stanford isn't even in the top 25. I personally think something similar will happen to UConn when Geno retires. It happened at Tennessee, UT and Tech when the legacy elite coach was no longer there. So, I think the head coach carries a ton of weight and more so than any history the school might have had in the past. Success doesn't just transfer to a new coach. It has to be earned and demonstrated by the new coach and that is hard to do when the school doesn't get the level and number of recruits it had in the past to generate that success.

I certainly don't know how, from where and where NIL money is spread out at Baylor. Certainly football was the number 1 priority as it should have been. If that situation stabilizes as it looks like it "might", perhaps more will be directed at WBB.

There may also be another factor....our conference. I think someone pointed out in a thread a while back that none of our brethren were doing much in getting top-level HS recruits. There may be some truth that recruits might not expect the exposure in the XII that the public might have seen in the past when we had a national brand name (UT) in the conference along with a "what is the crazy woman going to do next" coach on our sidelines that for good or bad shed light on the conference on a national scale.

I do think that CNC will do everything within her power to make things work in recruiting. She does not seem to be one that settles for being just good. I do believe she knows the game well enough to see where issues exist and then do something about them. And I agree with the poster above that if $$ for NIL are the problem it won't matter who is coaching. Only the few recognized elite left in the profession might could overcome that elephant in the room and the only place they are headed for is retirement where they are.

Bear3 said:

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There was not NIL when Chloe was here.

The top teams in SEC and BIG 10 are offering big NIL deals. The staff has said NIL is large factor in a recruit's decision. If we can't be competitive with NIL we are not getting the top players regardless of who coach is, . That is just a fact.

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I never said there was.

I stated recruiting had a drop off when she LEFT. She was the one that had direct connections to many recruits and not replacing her with someone as capable of doing such as her was a mistake.

NIL isn't the sole reason why we are missing on recruits. We are not going to go crazy on NIL funds with WBB, so NC has to PIVOT and find a work around to appease to these recruits.

Also, it does matter who the coach is. If Mulkey were still here, she'd pull in top recruits just due to who she is.

NIL matters, but if NC is expecting to see a direct increase on that side, then she will be sadly mistaken as WBB already loses money and in my opinion wasn't a priority sport dating back to when we hired her.

ALOT of what Mulkey is achieving in recruiting classes is based on her resume.

We can argue NIL all day, but she has been around long enough and created a true name for herself amongst recruits that NIL can't buy.

Hell, we can't even get the Top 50 recruits, and I know for a fact we should have an NIL package that could secure them.

At some point, you have to look at recruiting as a whole and know that we need more help on the recruiting end from a legit coach/recruiter

Some corrections here on the staff not landing top 50 recruits.

1-Buggs was the number 17 player in the country out of high school according to espn.

2- Bella was number 41 player in the country of high school according to espn.

3- marcayla Johnson right now is the number 41 player in the country according to ESPN for class of 2025.

4-Lety was the number 36 player out of high school according to ESPN. Granted she transferred out but still point remains that the staff landed a top 50 player.

It's not even mentioning Kayla Nelms was almost a top 50 player in the class of 2024. She was number 51 according to ESPN.

BaylorBears_254 said:

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ALOT of what Mulkey is achieving in recruiting classes is based on her resume.

We can argue NIL all day, but she has been around long enough and created a true name for herself amongst recruits that NIL can't buy.

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That was one of my points about how the elite coach can pull them in. But also as I stated we lost out on some of those we really wanted while she was at Baylor. After the Fab 5, I think we only brought in J. Oliver in 2019 and only had Andrews and Gusters in 2020. I think we only had the Arkansas girl for 2021 and rumor here was she was wanting to get out of her signing even before Kim left. We had starting looking at transfers as we had never done before (Jackson, Cooper and Carrington being the top ones). But outside of those mentioned I don't remember much of a buzz about our HS recruiting back then.

I think resume is a large part of it and perhaps the school itself and money involved. I don't think anyone here could legitimately argue that KM would have brought into Baylor anything like what she brought into LSU. The eye test looked like we were stagnating in that regard, if anything. Certainly she got rejuvenated and motivated when she went to LSU and perhaps that explains the difference.

Marcayla is #41. I think Kayla was also in top 50 but not sure about that. Yes a hall of fame coach can make a difference for sure, but money is still a factor even with Geno, Dawn and Kim. I doubt a top 5 recruit would play for them without some type of NIL

3 of 4 HS recruits that Kim secured for LSU have said they followed Kim when she was at Baylor, because they liked her style coaching (active and intense) and her multiple natl championships. And then they continued to watch her at LSU. So a coach's style and reputation is an important part of a recruit's decision.
I do love Coach N style of coaching and her character. She loves and supports her players and they love her. Good news is that Baylor has been in recruits' final 3/5/10 lists the past couple years. So we're inching closer, it's a matter of time when Coach N starts pulling in top 25 recruits.

ScottyB_The_Baylor_King said:

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Some corrections here on the staff not landing top 50 recruits.

1-Buggs was the number 17 player in the country out of high school according to espn.

2- Bella was number 41 player in the country of high school according to espn.

3- marcayla Johnson right now is the number 41 player in the country according to ESPN for class of 2025.

4-Lety was the number 36 player out of high school according to ESPN. Granted she transferred out but still point remains that the staff landed a top 50 player.

It's not even mentioning Kayla Nelms was almost a top 50 player in the class of 2024. She was number 51 according to ESPN.

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Once again, you just went back to went we had Chloe, so the 1st two points are non existent. As I said, our recruiting after Chloe has been dog *****

To be quite fair, once you start getting into the 40s for WBB recruits, you're looking at players that will probably take time to contribute. Thats with the exception of Bella, as she was injured and dropped. Johnson and Nelms are two recruits in the 40s for back to back years, that's just not good recruiting, especially with many players set to leave after this year.

Lety was ranked high due to height, let's just be honest there.

The highest ranking HS player Nicki recruited was Buggs who was #17 and McDonald's All American. I believe this was her first year here. This was before NIL. Nicki has had a couple of top 50 recruits since NIL but no one near as high as Buggs. Hopefully that will change in the future. Some very high ranked recruits have come for visits but didn't end up signing with us.

We have to be real here yall, there are only a handful of programs that are truly throwing out crazy money for WBB.

HS recruiting has been bad. We can list Johnson, Nelms and Lety all we want, but those aren't program changing players at all.

My main focus is this; NC is going to have to pivot and find another way to recruit better. I personally do not see us opening the check book for WBB, meaning NC is going to have to get it out the mud and find a alternative.

One alternative, WINNING. She has to win. She has to capitalize with what she has this year, as I feel like we have a great team, even with the Jana injury.

Second alternate, we should look into getting someone to come in and help with recruiting that has pull around the WBB circuit.

You say this, but I think it has been evident that a lot of NIL money was spent on LSU recruits and transfers. Does LSU just choose to throw that money away, if it's not necessary?

There is ABSOLUTELY no doubt Coach Mulkey's reputation helps bring the good recruits/transfers to her. I'll never argue that point with you. She is an awesome and proven coach. But there are enough coaches at top level (if not exactly elite) programs, that even for Kim, it takes "dollar bills to close the deals…." Otherwise, those recruits can, and many will, look to those other higher programs who pay out. And it doesn't have to be the cream of the cream, just teams that recruits can convince themselves would have a shot at the Final Four if said recruit inserts their talent into the mix… Ohio State, North Carolina, USC, Kentucky, maybe UCLA, Oregon again, to name a few examples.

Anyway, my opinion. Okay that we differ.

Chibears2 said:

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You say this, but I think it has been evident that a lot of NIL money was spent on LSU recruits and transfers. Does LSU just choose to throw that money away, if it's not necessary?

There is ABSOLUTELY no doubt Coach Mulkey's reputation helps bring the good recruits/transfers to her. I'll never argue that point with you. She is an awesome and proven coach. But there are enough coaches at top level (if not exactly elite) programs, that even for Kim, it takes "dollar bills to close the deals…." Otherwise, those recruits can, and many will, look to those other higher programs who pay out. And it doesn't have to be the cream of the cream, just teams that recruits can convince themselves would have a shot at the Final Four if said recruit inserts their talent into the mix… Ohio State, North Carolina, USC, Kentucky, maybe UCLA, Oregon again, to name a few examples.

Anyway, my opinion. Okay that we differ.

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My thing is not that it doesn't take an NIL effort to recruit WBB, however we are not going to compete with the likes of those schools. For one, NC isn't proven enough to push for it, so that's why i keep going back to my point of having to pivot and go another route to help improve.

So for those schools, they are larger schools that are able to dump big time NIL money into all programs, we can't, and we won't.

Mulkey could most definitely bring in a top class with no NIL, as for the top girls of her class, them having the funds to do so, for sure increases her chances. I never disputed that tho.

I mean, it isn't an argument type thing for me, because we aren't disagreeing lol.

If we're expected Mack to start pumping big time NIL out to WBB, you are gonna be waiting a while

BaylorBears_254 said:

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Chibears2 said:

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You say this, but I think it has been evident that a lot of NIL money was spent on LSU recruits and transfers. Does LSU just choose to throw that money away, if it's not necessary?

There is ABSOLUTELY no doubt Coach Mulkey's reputation helps bring the good recruits/transfers to her. I'll never argue that point with you. She is an awesome and proven coach. But there are enough coaches at top level (if not exactly elite) programs, that even for Kim, it takes "dollar bills to close the deals…." Otherwise, those recruits can, and many will, look to those other higher programs who pay out. And it doesn't have to be the cream of the cream, just teams that recruits can convince themselves would have a shot at the Final Four if said recruit inserts their talent into the mix… Ohio State, North Carolina, USC, Kentucky, maybe UCLA, Oregon again, to name a few examples.

Anyway, my opinion. Okay that we differ.

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My thing is not that it doesn't take an NIL effort to recruit WBB, however we are not going to compete with the likes of those schools. For one, NC isn't proven enough to push for it, so that's why i keep going back to my point of having to pivot and go another route to help improve.

So for those schools, they are larger schools that are able to dump big time NIL money into all programs, we can't, and we won't.

Mulkey could most definitely bring in a top class with no NIL, as for the top girls of her class, them having the funds to do so, for sure increases her chances. I never disputed that tho.

I mean, it isn't an argument type thing for me, because we aren't disagreeing lol.

If we're expected Mack to start pumping big time NIL out to WBB, you are gonna be waiting a while

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I have to ask a question about the bolded above. Are you saying at LSU or at Baylor? I really don't think KM could do anything like what she has done at LSU at Baylor, NIL (they have almost unlimited) or not, and certainly not without NIL money.

The last few HS recruiting classes she had here were not overwhelming, especially her last, nothing like what she gets at LSU and not even what she used to get at Baylor in earlier years.. To be fair, NIL was not even allowed until after she left. I will grant that she probably could bring in a higher recruit than what we are seeing now, but a top class.....no, not without NIL resources to match the big dogs right now, certainly not "most definitely", not at Baylor with our apparent level of NIL.

blackie said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Chibears2 said:

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You say this, but I think it has been evident that a lot of NIL money was spent on LSU recruits and transfers. Does LSU just choose to throw that money away, if it's not necessary?

There is ABSOLUTELY no doubt Coach Mulkey's reputation helps bring the good recruits/transfers to her. I'll never argue that point with you. She is an awesome and proven coach. But there are enough coaches at top level (if not exactly elite) programs, that even for Kim, it takes "dollar bills to close the deals…." Otherwise, those recruits can, and many will, look to those other higher programs who pay out. And it doesn't have to be the cream of the cream, just teams that recruits can convince themselves would have a shot at the Final Four if said recruit inserts their talent into the mix… Ohio State, North Carolina, USC, Kentucky, maybe UCLA, Oregon again, to name a few examples.

Anyway, my opinion. Okay that we differ.

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My thing is not that it doesn't take an NIL effort to recruit WBB, however we are not going to compete with the likes of those schools. For one, NC isn't proven enough to push for it, so that's why i keep going back to my point of having to pivot and go another route to help improve.

So for those schools, they are larger schools that are able to dump big time NIL money into all programs, we can't, and we won't.

Mulkey could most definitely bring in a top class with no NIL, as for the top girls of her class, them having the funds to do so, for sure increases her chances. I never disputed that tho.

I mean, it isn't an argument type thing for me, because we aren't disagreeing lol.

If we're expected Mack to start pumping big time NIL out to WBB, you are gonna be waiting a while

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I have to ask a question about the bolded above. Are you saying at LSU or at Baylor? I really don't think KM could do anything like what she has done at LSU at Baylor, NIL (they have almost unlimited) or not, and certainly not without NIL money.

The last few HS recruiting classes she had here were not overwhelming, especially her last, nothing like what she gets at LSU and not even what she used to get at Baylor in earlier years.. To be fair, NIL was not even allowed until after she left. I will grant that she probably could bring in a higher recruit than what we are seeing now, but a top class.....no, not without NIL resources to match the big dogs right now, certainly not "most definitely", not at Baylor with our apparent level of NIL.

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I think she could do it at Baylor and LSU.

I think when you reach the status that she has, recruiting becomes easy.

Don't get me wrong, I said NIL mattered, but if you pit Mulkey in place with the same current NIL situation, she pulls in a waaay better class just due to legacy.

Her last classes at Baylor were definitely really good classes lol. She just didn't stockpile as much as she did when she got the "Fab 5".

As I said before, i don't see the NIL for WBB improving here regardless, so she should probably find other ways

Not sure why it did the heart eyes emojis lol

Baylor HS recruits under Kim Mulkey during her last 3 years. Don't think she slacked off any. That is one area that you can say about her, if she is personally involved in recruiting, she will get the top recruits.

2018: 5 recruits. #3, #7, #13, #20, #29
2019: #12
2020: #12, #16

BearTiger said:

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Baylor HS recruits under Kim Mulkey during her last 3 years. Don't think she slacked off any. That is one area that you can say about her, if she is personally involved in recruiting, she will get the top recruits.

2018: 5 recruits. #3, #7, #13, #20, #29
2019: #12
2020: #12, #16

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But for 2021 didn't all she have was the girl from Arkansas who it was stated on this board that she really wanted to get out of her commitment even before Mulkey left. It seemed we were filling more holes with transfers rather than HS recruits. Only having 4 (if you count the Arkansas girl) HS recruits total in three years (19, 20, 21) is really not much.

I guess I will just have to disagree with you guys and that's fine but I just don't see that had she stayed here she would have gotten anything close to what she got at LSU, most reasons having nothing to do with her history here. It may not be valid, but it is the only example of which I know. Van Lith turned KM down when she tried to get her to come to Baylor, but went to LSU once Kim was there. The coach was the same. So, was the problem Baylor, the school, or did big NIL money make the difference? Certainly when Kim was trying to recruit her to Baylor, we were riding high, so concern about not coming to a potential FF team didn't come into play.

I just don't see the rosy picture you guys are painting immediately before Kim left concerning HS recruiting. What I saw on the 2021 roster prior to Kim leaving was a bunch of seniors-to-be and transfers, most of whom went elsewhere when the coaching change occurred, not a roster stocked with up and coming recently recruited HS stars (Andrews was the only one). I think it had slacked off (HS recruiting). Perhaps it would have picked back up for 2022 had she stayed, but no way to know one way or another.

Kim got 3 top 15 recruits for 2025. Yes I agree that many players would like to play for Kim and her name and resume are big draws, but money talks big to 17 and 18 year old players and NIL for LSU players is said to be highest in country. If Kim was at Baylor and offered NIL we can currently provide some if not all of these top 15 players would choose other good teams for a much larger NIL.

Dp

Brusinbear2001 said:

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Kendra and Lety are the only ones I can think of but we haven't really had a huge class besides the first one. I think it would be nice to recruit and obviously we haven't fully left that. We still host and make the top of a lot of list but the money is obviously why we are not closing.

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We knew it was always going to end like this, but I suspect for a lot of supporters of NIL, it was not meant to turn out this way....basically pay to play. And for too many of these kids the family is desperate for the money.

Meanwhile, Kansas signs the 6th best recruiting class in the country with two 5*, one 4* and another highly recruited player.

Bear3 said:

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And highly likely they offered big NIL money.

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Kansas has BIG NIL money for WOMENS Basketball ??

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