BUFan10 said:

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What a dumb comment. What's the payoff by making it.?

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???

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/baylor/women/

The Mulkey mess is another example of Baylor failing to develop professional relationship with employees. Tough to do with people who are at the top of their profession but it can be done, if executed from the jump. "First among equals" is a pretty good if simplistic approach, but when honored it has served education well. BU let Kim get OOC due to success and weak leadership, coupled with people speaking for BU who were not empowered to do so. Mulkey strikes me as one who demands good and strong leadership and when it's not there, she'll lead. Missteps on both sides led to the final irretrievable results. State of Louisiana then paved the exit highway. Now $$$ is driving the runaway business of athletics. Not a lot of second thought should be given the how"we"got here" thinking; BU needs folks thinking about how we get out.

BaylorBears_254 said:

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blackie said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Ill bet EVERYTHING that KM would still be pulling in Top 5 classes had she stayed. Even with NIL being low in WBB.

Her pedigree/history as a coach alone would make recruits sit and listen.

To be honest, NIL is only low because of who we have as a coach.

Why would we spend a crazy amount of money on WBB with a coach MR was willing to play the long game with

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I think you are discounting our conference situation and letting the period up to our last NC hide the slide in recruiting that started with the 2019 class.

I did some research on ESPN's class recruiting rankings and found this concerning HS recruiting classes.

2018 class - Mulkey - 1st (called the "Fierce Five" by some)
2019 class - Mulkey - not in top 25
2020 class - Mulkey - 9th (Andrews and Gusters)
2021 class - Mulkey - not in top 25

2022 class - Collen - 9th

The large class in 2018 had some effect on how many we could take in the 2019 class, but only Smith, Egbo and Bickle of the five ever amounted to anything in a Baylor uniform. The 2020 class had Andrews and Gusters, and Gusters was a disappointment. The 2021 class was not really existent. Dauda signed, I believe, but wanted out of her NLI before Kim left and the coaching change certainly allowed her to do so.

Kim was lining up a bunch of transfers for the 21-22 season versus HS recruits but none of those transfers were all that impressive. I think we were depending on Smith, Egbo, Bickle and a returning Ursin to keep us near the top, but there wasn't much depth behind that. Then when Kim left and the transfers not unexpectantly went elsewhere before the new staff even got settled we were left with a senior-laden team (that at least got us into the tournament) with little left for the next season.

Collen did bring in a top 10 class in 2022 to keep the boat afloat. Without that class with Buggs and Bella we would have been in deep do-do. Then UT and OU were leaving, so any appeal the conference had to help attract players was gone. Now NIL has made it tougher.

I don't doubt that the likelihood is there for KM to have kept some big donors to provide external NIL, but there is not compelling evidence to believe she would be pulling in top 5 classes at Baylor today with or without competitive NIL had she stayed. The conference is just too big of an albatross and she would not be able to do anything about that. You could promise recruits that our OOC schedule would be stacked like UConn plays, but her history of OOC scheduling (even today at LSU) does not make that believable. If you were a top recruit and could receive just as much money someplace else and play an SEC, B1G, or even ACC schedule versus playing to half empty arenas in most of the XII, what choice would you make?

We were left in a tough spot with the timing, class distribution of our roster at the time and the absence of any advance warning it was going to happen. Neither the players nor the fans had anything to do with that. Compared to other programs our road hasn't taken any harder dip than what occurred at other schools that lost their HOF coach, but almost all of those schools did not find themselves in conferences that were considered second rate and at a time when money for players had to be there at a high level in order to not be at a recruiting disadvantage. And even with that only UT has gotten back to where they were and that took many, many years.

Recruits sit and listen to the staff today. That is not the problem. We are often in their final top 2 or 3. The problem is that we are no longer in a good neighborhood with respected neighbors (WBB-wise) and we don't have the funds to have to outbid everyone else plus add some more to the pot to convince those players to come and live outside the bright lights.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but I thought it necessary to provide background to my opinions as to why I respectful of your opinion cannot concur with your bet.

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You gave recruiting rankings that still didn't prove the point.

When Mulkey signed that "Fav 5" class, there was no need to overly recruit the next year as we just took 5-5 star players and it was clear it was already tough to find PT for them given we already had a pretty stacked team. Along with getting top transfers.

NC getting Buggs and Bella in my opinion was due to the immediate PT that would be available. Not discrediting her, but that played a huuuge factor.

You're trying to argue that KM would have a hard time recruiting here and that's just false lol. No matter how you spin it.

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I mentioned why the 2019 class had nothing in it. Potential playing time has a huge part in every recruiting decision. That is not restricted to one coach or team.

Your "all-in" bet was that we would be pulling in top 5 classes. If you don't understand or admit the conference affiliation problem there is no point in discussing this further with you, and I won't. My response was not based on whether or not Mulkey would have a hard time recruiting, but that your "bet" of pulling in top-5 classes under the current landscape is not realistic.

It doesn't matter at this point regardless. We can do nothing about the past. And any opinions are based solely on speculation and emotion as we don't get do-overs. The issue is what can we do today? The problem with the conference affiliation is not only recruiting, but also in attracting a top-flight proven coach when that times come. Would you rather coach in a second-tier league or in the SEC, B1G or ACC. You don't want to accept the fact that when UT and OU left things changed dramatically for this conference in WBB.

We can hopefully improve our NIL situation, but top recruits are still going to want to play in conferences that are recognized as the best. That is the "X" factor here that others have that we do not. The XII falls far short of that. That is where it becomes a hard time recruiting. And to quote...."No matter how you spin it". The landscape for us being in the XII has changed and you don't seem to want to accept or understand that it has.

drahthaar said:

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Not a lot of second thought should be given the how"we"got here" thinking; BU needs folks thinking about how we get out.

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This is the important point here. I am hopeful the new AD will be able to think outside the box, because I don't think the old ways (not just at Baylor, but at a lot of other places) are going to cut it in the new landscape of college athletics in order to be able to compete in ways that fans living in the past expect.. I don't think he is a Yormark, but I sure hope he has some of Yormark in him.

Kim would recruit better than Nicki because of her name. But she would not be getting top 5 classes at Baylor right now. Baylor has a huge NIL and conference issue in Wbb. Kim's name will not overcome all of that in recruiting.

The Big 12 is not a top conference. We are way behind Big 10 and SEC in recruiting . I will say again that for 2026, Big 12 schools got 2 of the top 40 recruits and O top 2O recruits. Top players just don't want to play in Big 12. It is really surprising thar Nicki gets in final 2 or 3 lists for the number of top players she gets to campus.

Also the whole discussion of how Kim would recruit at Baylor is irrelevant. She has been gone for almost 5 years and is not returning'

Bear3 said:

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Kim would recruit better than Nicki because of her name. But she would not be getting top 5 classes at Baylor right now. Baylor has a huge NIL and conference issue in Wbb. Kim's name will not overcome all of that in recruiting.

The Big 12 is not a top conference. We are way behind Big 10 and SEC in recruiting . I will say again that for 2026, Big 12 schools got 2 of the top 40 recruits and O top 2O recruits. Top players just don't want to play in Big 12. It is really surprising thar Nicki gets in final 2 or 3 lists for the number of top players she gets to campus.

Also the whole discussion of how Kim would recruit at Baylor is irrelevant. She has been gone for almost 5 years and is not returning'

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The high school recruiting you point out is interesting. The ACC has several 2026 top recruits for example, but does not currently have a team in the top 15. The Big12 has 3 teams in the top 15, including Baylor (still).

Also, I wonder how portal transfers factor in. TCU took ND's best player, and we picked up 3 transfers this off season from the SEC. Not sure about other Big12 teams.

I think the Big12 is the #3 conference currently in wbb and will continue to "hang out" in the 10-15 range in the rankings. Would be great if a Big12 team could somehow get into the Final Four in the next year or two, even if it is not Baylor.

Leonidas said:

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Bear3 said:

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Kim would recruit better than Nicki because of her name. But she would not be getting top 5 classes at Baylor right now. Baylor has a huge NIL and conference issue in Wbb. Kim's name will not overcome all of that in recruiting.

The Big 12 is not a top conference. We are way behind Big 10 and SEC in recruiting . I will say again that for 2026, Big 12 schools got 2 of the top 40 recruits and O top 2O recruits. Top players just don't want to play in Big 12. It is really surprising thar Nicki gets in final 2 or 3 lists for the number of top players she gets to campus.

Also the whole discussion of how Kim would recruit at Baylor is irrelevant. She has been gone for almost 5 years and is not returning'

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The high school recruiting you point out is interesting. The ACC has several 2026 top recruits for example, but does not currently have a team in the top 15. The Big12 has 3 teams in the top 15, including Baylor (still).

Also, I wonder how portal transfers factor in. TCU took ND's best player, and we picked up 3 transfers this off season from the SEC. Not sure about other Big12 teams.

I think the Big12 is the #3 conference currently in wbb and will continue to "hang out" in the 10-15 range in the rankings. Would be great if a Big12 team could somehow get into the Final Four in the next year or two, even if it is not Baylor.

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I think with the ACC and not having anyone in the top 15, it doesn't really matter. It is a general perception among the WBB world that the ACC is a strong conference (not SEC strong, but strong) because of their names and history....NC, NC State, Duke, Louisville, ND, etc. and I believe their overall attendance is well ahead of the Big XII. It helps they are on the East Coast where the media is concentrated.

This was the same when we were on top of the world. We got no respect for our conference play, especially because most of those later years, UT and OU were not challenging anyone and our OOC schedule usually sucked overall. We had some years where we played TN, UConn, ND or Stanford, but generally only 1 per year and the rest were typically lower level teams and then conference was generally a cake walk.

The Big XII simply doesn't have the brand recognition that will attract top players in any significant numbers who want to play against top teams in well-attended arenas and against teams who their AAU friends are on.

Concerning portal transfers, yes there will be transfers into the XII. The SEC, B1G and ACC attract players every year. But they all can't play in a place that has attracted top players over a four year period. There will also be some that have personal issues with a coach or other players or family considerations or are just not getting the playing time they want. It doesn't help them much to go to another stacked team in those conferences for playing time, so they decide to come to TCU or Baylor or somewhere else in the XII. But the XII was NOT their first choice.

I can't really see anyone from the XII getting into the FF in the next couple of years, barring some kind of bracket luck such as key players on top teams going down in the SS or E8. We just don't have the concentration of elite players on any one team to break down the door right now. I hope that changes, but I think that is today's reality.

We can agree to disagree and no will know definitively how Kim would recruit now at Baylor since she won't be back. She recruits very well at LSU and I am sure that will continue.

BaylorBears_254 said:

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Bear3 said:

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Kim would recruit better than Nicki because of her name. But she would not be getting top 5 classes at Baylor right now. Baylor has a huge NIL and conference issue in Wbb. Kim's name will not overcome all of that in recruiting.

The Big 12 is not a top conference. We are way behind Big 10 and SEC in recruiting . I will say again that for 2026, Big 12 schools got 2 of the top 40 recruits and O top 2O recruits. Top players just don't want to play in Big 12. It is really surprising thar Nicki gets in final 2 or 3 lists for the number of top players she gets to campus.

Also the whole discussion of how Kim would recruit at Baylor is irrelevant. She has been gone for almost 5 years and is not returning'

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I never brought it up, i simply responded.
Again, you and blackie are discrediting Kims entire pedigree, and making it seem like NC has been amazing while here and its not the case.

We can agree to disagree; however, it does take change the fact that Kim would flatout out recruit NC no matter WHAT.

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I don't think anyone is trying to make the case you are stating above. That was not your premise. You stated that we would be getting top 5 classes with Kim still here and for reasons stated ad nauseum in earlier posts, I and at least a few others who have posted believe that would be highly unlikely. I don't think NC has been what I would call "amazing", but she has kept us out of the ditch that UT, TN, NC, etc. fell in when they lost their HOF coach. So, some credit should be given to her for that.

We were going to have this problem at some point. The woman could not have coached at Baylor forever. At some point Baylor was going to have a different coach. She sped that up in an abrupt, unexpected way and without warning which exacerbated the problem. She did nothing, as well, to try to leave the program on a sound footing, quite the contrary. We got dumped. The players, the program and the fans. There is no other way to put it.

We can only deal with where we are today. I wish we had had some time to develop a succession plan, but we were left in chaos. Of course we would have been better off for now if she had stayed, but we were going to have the same problem with recruiting with the same obstacles (no HOF coach, sorry conference affiliation and now having to shell out inflated NIL for players to overcome that conference affiliation) whenever she stepped aside.

Let's hope the new AD can navigate us through this and getting things moving into the direction we all want.

blackie said:

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BaylorBears_254 said:

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Bear3 said:

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Kim would recruit better than Nicki because of her name. But she would not be getting top 5 classes at Baylor right now. Baylor has a huge NIL and conference issue in Wbb. Kim's name will not overcome all of that in recruiting.

The Big 12 is not a top conference. We are way behind Big 10 and SEC in recruiting . I will say again that for 2026, Big 12 schools got 2 of the top 40 recruits and O top 2O recruits. Top players just don't want to play in Big 12. It is really surprising thar Nicki gets in final 2 or 3 lists for the number of top players she gets to campus.

Also the whole discussion of how Kim would recruit at Baylor is irrelevant. She has been gone for almost 5 years and is not returning'

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I never brought it up, i simply responded.
Again, you and blackie are discrediting Kims entire pedigree, and making it seem like NC has been amazing while here and its not the case.

We can agree to disagree; however, it does take change the fact that Kim would flatout out recruit NC no matter WHAT.

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I don't think anyone is trying to make the case you are stating above. That was not your premise. You stated that we would be getting top 5 classes with Kim still here and for reasons stated ad nauseum in earlier posts, I and at least a few others who have posted believe that would be highly unlikely. I don't think NC has been what I would call "amazing", but she has kept us out of the ditch that UT, TN, NC, etc. fell in when they lost their HOF coach. So, some credit should be given to her for that.

We were going to have this problem at some point. The woman could not have coached at Baylor forever. At some point Baylor was going to have a different coach. She sped that up in an abrupt, unexpected way and without warning which exacerbated the problem. She did nothing, as well, to try to leave the program on a sound footing, quite the contrary. We got dumped. The players, the program and the fans. There is no other way to put it.

We can only deal with where we are today. I wish we had had some time to develop a succession plan, but we were left in chaos. Of course we would have been better off for now if she had stayed, but we were going to have the same problem with recruiting with the same obstacles (no HOF coach, sorry conference affiliation and now having to shell out inflated NIL for players to overcome that conference affiliation) whenever she stepped aside.

Let's hope the new AD can navigate us through this and getting things moving into the direction we all want.

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As i stated before, we would 100% be pulling in Top 5 classes had KM stayed. Without a doubt.

I don't think NC is horrible, but I don't see any improvement whatsoever. I don't like her recruiting philosophy at all. This is women's college basketball.

Unless the guard/forward is hands down a game changer, you go get the best post player available and build around her. NC has went 2-3 years and has completely ignored that position. That alone screams she hasn't adapted much yet.

We were left with chaos due to MR choosing a low risk, low-high reward coach. Baylor WBB was a Top Tier job, once KM walked out and we hired NC, WBB was no longer considered a sport that we wanted to truly invest in. That's just facts.

Which is why I know KM would still be recruiting the best players here (High School and Portal)