I've read tons of comments in various threads complaining about the refs in WBB and I feel the same way. It's hard to believe these in the NCAA tournament are the best of the best.

Then I started thinking about why they're so bad. I'm pretty sure refs get paid more in MBB and perhaps refs for HS boys get paid more than HS girls. Most would agree there is more prestige in the men's game. Crowds are bigger and at least in the past refs got paid a small percentage of the gate.

I'm afraid WBB got the leftovers. What incentive is there to choose WBB? I'm guessing many of the male refs got into it because of a daughter who played.

First you'd have to drain the swamp.

Short Term: no. No viable lateral source from which to steal talent.

Long Term: sure. Solicit, hire, train, put to work, weed out. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Money fixes most talent deficiency issues.

Drones and AI.

AP is right -- money would make the difference, but it would take time.

I will say, though, that it's really much better than it used to be. I've watched WBB since Kim was playing at Tech. I've often been astonished at how bad the officiating was. In most games, any player that blocked a shot got called for a foul. The most egregious game I remember was Purdue and La. Tech in the FF (about 95?) where Purdue's guards just kept jumping into the Tech defenders and got an absurd amount of blocking calls. It was the difference in the game. So, as bad as it is, it could be worse.

There are in particular two types of calls in the womens' game in regard to charge/blocks that make me want to throw the television.

1. When running in transition and a player goes up for a shot, the defensive player slides under the shooter while the shooter is in mid-air, and when there is a collision, the charge is consistently called. Womens' refs seem to think that the player in mid-air should adjust. The best at getting this call is Audry Warren of Texas. She lives on it. She gets three or four of these a game---and it is dangerous for the offensive player who is in mid-air and can't brace for the collision. Smith picks up these fouls on a regular basis.

2. When an offensive player is driving in the lane and spins the other direction for a shot, the opponent jumps in front of her, establishes no position whatsoever, and you can be assured the ref in the womens' game will call that a foul when the defensive player falls back ten feet. This is almost automatic.

Offensive players are often left helpless- and it is causing good defensive players to flop. I love Bickle's game, and she is tough as nails, but she is getting to where an offensive player touches her and she falls down like she just got run over by a freight train. And, to her credit she got the call two or three times on Tuesday, but I would have called her for flopping twice. But Heck, if they give you the call- do it.

IIf you haven't watched Warren for Texas-do in the Sweet 16- and you will see one of the best in the business at picking up an unwarranted charge call. She is by far the best in conference at flopping. She could whip Mike Tyson in a 12 round fight, but touch her in the lane, and she suddenly becomes grass in a hurricane.

Let em play- train the refs particularly on what is and what is not a charge---and for those who did-thanks for reading my vent.

Adriacus Peratuun said:

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Short Term: no. No viable lateral source from which to steal talent.

Long Term: sure. Solicit, hire, train, put to work, weed out. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Money fixes most talent deficiency issues.

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Exactly AP. With that...there is no amount of money that would get me to subject myself to weeks within the NCAA draconian lockdown...sorry, I mean "bubble"...and being subjected to the continual poking and prodding "protocols" there in. I can imagine that more than a few refs said no thanks. I haven't recognized a single ref.

Agree completely.

lookin4awin said:

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There are in particular two types of calls in the womens' game in regard to charge/blocks that make me want to throw the television.

1. When running in transition and a player goes up for a shot, the defensive player slides under the shooter while the shooter is in mid-air, and when there is a collision, the charge is consistently called. Womens' refs seem to think that the player in mid-air should adjust. The best at getting this ragamuffin call is Audry Warren of Texas. She lives on it. She gets three or four of these a game---and it is dangerous for the offensive player who is in mid-air and can't brace for the collision. Smith picks up these fouls on a regular basis.

2. When an offensive player is driving in the lane and spins the other direction for a shot, the opponent jumps in front of her, establishes no position whatsoever, and you can be assured the ref in the womens' game will call that a foul when the defensive player falls back ten feet. This is almost automatic.

Offensive players are often left helpless- and it is causing good defensive players to flop. I love Bickle's game, and she is tough as nails, but she is getting to where an offensive player touches her and she falls down like she just got run over by a freight train. And, to her credit she got the call two or three times on Tuesday, but I would have called her for flopping twice. But Heck, if they give you the call- do it.

IIf you haven't watched Warren for Texas-do in the Sweet 16- and you will see one of the best in the business at picking up an unwarranted charge call. She is by far the best in conference at flopping. She could whip Mike Tyson in a 12 round fight, but touch her in the lane, and she suddenly becomes grass in a hurricane.

Let em play- train the refs particularly on what is and what is not a charge---and for those who did-thanks for reading my vent.

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It seems like every time a ref calls a charge, they showboat the call. There is always more emphasis on the signaling. (Makes me think of the Leslie Nielson umpire scene in Naked Gun).



I think refs have bought into the idea that charge taking should be encouraged as good d and want to reward it.

What I don't like and I see it in both men and women is the offensive player jumping into the defensive player as they alter their shooting motion to do so and then the defense gets called for the foul. Doesn't seem right to me. The offensive player initiated the contact.

Does Mattingly still ref, or just run her training school, and oversee refs for several conferences?

blackie said:

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What I don't like and I see it in both men and women is the offensive player jumping into the defensive player as they alter their shooting motion to do so and then the defense gets called for the foul. Doesn't seem right to me. The offensive player initiated the contact.

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That is extremely prevalent in the NBA. When a pro player sees the shot clock is expiring he leaps forward like a long jumper into the body of the defender who is just standing there doing his job, but as he makes the forward leap he throws the ball up in desperation as though he was shooting. The refs seem to fall for it time and time again. It's fakier than pro wrestling.

James Harden is the master of this art.

Heard a comment in the game last week (maybe after one of Bickle's taken charges) that I did not know. In the men's game you have to establish both feet in a defensive position between the offensive player and the basket for the defender to get the charging call (the old "you've got to be "set" with no movement as a defender).

If I heard the commentator correctly something was said to the effect "In the women's game all that is required to get an offensive charge call is for the defender to have her shoulders square in position; both feet don't have to be "set" (thus Bickle has an excellent slide step to get square--though often seemingly late trailing foot getting 'set").

Did not know that. Anybody that REALLY knows wbb rules (as different from mbb) able to confirm that?

I don't like that accommodation to wbb, and I especially don't like the accommodation of the "step thru" offensive move to the basket that seems to be more lenient every year.

I think it was Carolyn Peck.

Sure makes it dangerous for the poor girl in air-who has no capability to adjust- while a player jumps under her and squares her shoulders.

Another call I hate is when inside players are fighting for position on the block, and suddenly the defensive player falls down and it is a charge. Granted some calls need to be made when it gets rough with the hands. But some of the womens' refs call fouls because the offensive player is using her body to establish position. This is exactly what you are supposed to do---just don't use your hands too much.

I think there are a lot of refs that never played and do not understand the game at all, thanks Joe

joep said:

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I think there are a lot of refs that never played and do not understand the game at all, thanks Joe

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You're exactly right. Also, there are many male refs in WBB that just can't see how women can be athletic enough to make certain plays and they call fouls in anticipation. The game needs more women officials who have actually played the game at the modern D1 level. That would be a start.

Way too much contact in both the men's and women's game. Men's college basketball at times is unwatchble because of this. Makes it very hard to officiate.

lookin4awin said:

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There are in particular two types of calls in the womens' game in regard to charge/blocks that make me want to throw the television.

1. When running in transition and a player goes up for a shot, the defensive player slides under the shooter while the shooter is in mid-air, and when there is a collision, the charge is consistently called. Womens' refs seem to think that the player in mid-air should adjust. The best at getting this call is Audry Warren of Texas. She lives on it. She gets three or four of these a game---and it is dangerous for the offensive player who is in mid-air and can't brace for the collision. Smith picks up these fouls on a regular basis.

2. When an offensive player is driving in the lane and spins the other direction for a shot, the opponent jumps in front of her, establishes no position whatsoever, and you can be assured the ref in the womens' game will call that a foul when the defensive player falls back ten feet. This is almost automatic.

Offensive players are often left helpless- and it is causing good defensive players to flop. I love Bickle's game, and she is tough as nails, but she is getting to where an offensive player touches her and she falls down like she just got run over by a freight train. And, to her credit she got the call two or three times on Tuesday, but I would have called her for flopping twice. But Heck, if they give you the call- do it.

IIf you haven't watched Warren for Texas-do in the Sweet 16- and you will see one of the best in the business at picking up an unwarranted charge call. She is by far the best in conference at flopping. She could whip Mike Tyson in a 12 round fight, but touch her in the lane, and she suddenly becomes grass in a hurricane.

Let em play- train the refs particularly on what is and what is not a charge---and for those who did-thanks for reading my vent.

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Carrington and Didi do their share of selling a charge as well. I always say that they must take some acting and marketing classes to be able to carry it out and sell it so well, LOL! "Best supporting actress award!"

GarlandBear84 said:

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I've read tons of comments in various threads complaining about the refs in WBB and I feel the same way. It's hard to believe these in the NCAA tournament are the best of the best.

Then I started thinking about why they're so bad. I'm pretty sure refs get paid more in MBB and perhaps refs for HS boys get paid more than HS girls. Most would agree there is more prestige in the men's game. Crowds are bigger and at least in the past refs got paid a small percentage of the gate.

I'm afraid WBB got the leftovers. What incentive is there to choose WBB? I'm guessing many of the male refs got into it because of a daughter who played.

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My concern about the leftovers is the same as yours. I can't swear that refs in women's games are paid less, but I'd be astonished if the pay is equal, given all the other things that are unequal (like the weight rooms and other accommodations provided by the NCAA this year). Some of these refs are high-school caliber at best.

That said, I do think it's slowly improving, and there have always been some good ones. For example, I feel a sense of relief when I see that Dee Kantner is working a Baylor game.

TechDawgMc said:

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AP is right -- money would make the difference, but it would take time.

I will say, though, that it's really much better than it used to be. I've watched WBB since Kim was playing at Tech. I've often been astonished at how bad the officiating was. In most games, any player that blocked a shot got called for a foul. The most egregious game I remember was Purdue and La. Tech in the FF (about 95?) where Purdue's guards just kept jumping into the Tech defenders and got an absurd amount of blocking calls. It was the difference in the game. So, as bad as it is, it could be worse.

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Most egregious officiating offense I ever saw in a women's game was the end of the infamous Baylor-Tennessee NCAA tournament game when two players were going for a loose ball with less than a second remaining. Even had they gotten control of the ball, neither player was going to be able to do anything with it before the horn sounded, but the ref called a foul on BU. Tennessee player hit two FTs, game over. If bad (biased) officiating were a capital offense, that ref should have been taken behind the gym and shot. Maybe even if it wasn't a capital offense.

I think many experienced refs have either retired, quit, or have taken COVID vacations.

Booray said:

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lookin4awin said:

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There are in particular two types of calls in the womens' game in regard to charge/blocks that make me want to throw the television.

1. When running in transition and a player goes up for a shot, the defensive player slides under the shooter while the shooter is in mid-air, and when there is a collision, the charge is consistently called. Womens' refs seem to think that the player in mid-air should adjust. The best at getting this ragamuffin call is Audry Warren of Texas. She lives on it. She gets three or four of these a game---and it is dangerous for the offensive player who is in mid-air and can't brace for the collision. Smith picks up these fouls on a regular basis.

2. When an offensive player is driving in the lane and spins the other direction for a shot, the opponent jumps in front of her, establishes no position whatsoever, and you can be assured the ref in the womens' game will call that a foul when the defensive player falls back ten feet. This is almost automatic.

Offensive players are often left helpless- and it is causing good defensive players to flop. I love Bickle's game, and she is tough as nails, but she is getting to where an offensive player touches her and she falls down like she just got run over by a freight train. And, to her credit she got the call two or three times on Tuesday, but I would have called her for flopping twice. But Heck, if they give you the call- do it.

IIf you haven't watched Warren for Texas-do in the Sweet 16- and you will see one of the best in the business at picking up an unwarranted charge call. She is by far the best in conference at flopping. She could whip Mike Tyson in a 12 round fight, but touch her in the lane, and she suddenly becomes grass in a hurricane.

Let em play- train the refs particularly on what is and what is not a charge---and for those who did-thanks for reading my vent.

---

It seems like every time a ref calls a charge, they showboat the call. There is always more emphasis on the signaling. (Makes me think of the Leslie Nielson umpire scene in Naked Gun).



I think refs have bought into the idea that charge taking should be encouraged as good d and want to reward it.

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Love the movie scene. I don't really begrudge a ref "selling the call" (Ted Valentine is the king of that) as a way of showing they have no doubts about it. I prefer that to appearing uncertain.

bubbadog said:

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TechDawgMc said:

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AP is right -- money would make the difference, but it would take time.

I will say, though, that it's really much better than it used to be. I've watched WBB since Kim was playing at Tech. I've often been astonished at how bad the officiating was. In most games, any player that blocked a shot got called for a foul. The most egregious game I remember was Purdue and La. Tech in the FF (about 95?) where Purdue's guards just kept jumping into the Tech defenders and got an absurd amount of blocking calls. It was the difference in the game. So, as bad as it is, it could be worse.

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Most egregious officiating offense I ever saw in a women's game was the end of the infamous Baylor-Tennessee NCAA tournament game when two players were going for a loose ball with less than a second remaining. Even had they gotten control of the ball, neither player was going to be able to do anything with it before the horn sounded, but the ref called a foul on BU. Tennessee player hit two FTs, game over. If bad (biased) officiating were a capital offense, that ref should have been taken behind the gym and shot. Maybe even if it wasn't a capital offense.

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Stripes in that game were protecting Pat Summit, Tennessee' Head Coach.

bubbadog said:

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That said, I do think it's slowly improving, and there have always been some good ones. For example, I feel a sense of relief when I see that Dee Kantner is working a Baylor game.

I'm hoping these experienced refs the likes of Dee Kantner have been held out to rest so as to work the final games in the tournaments, beginning tonight.

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